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McNosis, Aging Boomers and the Silent Crash

Posted on February 1, 2007
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McNosis, Retiring Boomers and the Silent Crash


Tough Times Ahead for Elder Boomers?


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502 Comments so far
  1. don w. February 1, 2007 4:26 pm

    mike, I retired a year ago to take
    care of my mother. That coffee at mac’s
    has improved greatly over the past 6 months
    and is better than most places.

  2. SES February 1, 2007 4:59 pm

    Your essay is on point and restrained in its tone, despite the ominous warnings of what lies ahead. When the reckoning comes––whenever that may be––it’s certain the future will not look like the past. Americans and all the poor sods across the globe who’ve emulated us will no longer be able to languish in the longest-running case of denial on record. The top one percent will no longer own 85% (or whatever the number is) of the wealth; America will not be the global hegemon; and, best of all, maybe television will be used to teach, rather than pollute (o.k., that’s a bridge too far). There may even be someone who comes along to rescue capitalism, as FDR did. And while there’s no way to calculate the extent of the economic devastation that awaits us, whatever’s left of our national wealth will be required to invest in the things we’ve long ignored, while we’ve enabled the new plutocrats to steal everything not nailed down. We simply refuse to abandon the belief that ever-increasing consumption is not only our birthright, but possible. That’s starting to show some wear, even now. This crash, the economic calamity, whatever it will ultimately be called, will inflict a lot of pain. Yet it may be the only way to renew this country, to make it a place more focused on humanity than greed, to get it out of the business of empire, and to force it to learn how to live with its neighbors in a globalized world. It could be a very exciting time.

  3. Michael Von Brah February 1, 2007 5:22 pm

    I feel for anyone that is taking advantage of the free offer to elliotwave.com. The website is run by a gentlemen named Robert Prechter who has been predicting that the bear market in gold has not ended for years. I have multiplied my wealth several times since the gold bull began in 2001. You are not doing your readers a favor by leading them towards someone who has got it wrong time after time.

  4. Di February 1, 2007 5:31 pm

    “But Bush broke his promise and kept right on spending the Social Security
    money. He is currently spending approximately $400 million of Social
    Security money each and every day,” Smith points out.

  5. Michael Von Brah February 1, 2007 5:43 pm

    Sorry for ranting on about that website but cmon. I just signed up for laughs and giggles and whats the first thing I see?

    A Major Deflation is Approaching
    - September 1998, at the bottom right of main page.

    LOL I was making my first million in 1998 playing junior tech stocks and this guy was preaching deflation.
    What a joke.

  6. Amos February 1, 2007 5:44 pm

    This country has got one hell of a ride ahead of it - it will be interesting to see how it fares. You could say that it is the boomer generation that is the cause of all the problems we have today - it was that huge “pig through the python” of their generation that led to inflation in the 70’s, the excessive greed of the 80’s, the me-first 90’s, all the while causing global warming along the way.

    Now that they are getting old, I wonder if it isn’t time that Karma had caught up with them. Will they be left high and dry by the younger generation, or will they hang on to the political power well enough to continue to screw the rest of the people and the planet as well?

    Only time will tell, but I think that we’re in for one helluva generational shitstorm coming down the pike, and it ain’t going to be pretty. I don’t know how the market intends to hold itself up once the first boomers start to sell.

    I’m an old timer, hopefully I won’t be around to see it. Personally, I don’t want to. I’m looking forward to what lies ahead in the next world.

  7. Richard Grady February 1, 2007 5:55 pm

    Until Americans realize that our politicians have sold out to the oil powers we shall continue down the path of destruction. There are alternative energy sources such as coal that can be liquified at less than half the cost of the current OPEC import.Look at silverado.com if you do not believe me. Environmentally friendly and easily obtained there is one big question. Why have we not utilized the resources we have? The answer lies in the power in Washington and large corporations tied to the war machine. We are in Iraq to secure future supply, and are leaning toward an expansive war in Iran for the same reason. War means big bucks, and control of oil supplies continues to pump money into the connected coffiers. Todays politician is bought and paid for by corrupt self interest groups. Democracy is only a word and we the people means we who are constantly screwed. Bad times are comming but noone believes it. When it all crumbles into a financial mess the middle class in the US will pay the sad price. No one will stop it, no one can. But history will show a time of deep pain is comming very soon.

  8. Robert Johns February 1, 2007 6:04 pm

    I suggest that if the USA government ( which supposedly represents the people who live there)is really serious about social reforms then it should immediately cease to pilfer the social security surplus for other government expenditures. Frankly speaking there is a lot of talk about reforms but little ( if any) action. I also believe the US government is more likely to enact reforms which delay the impact of baby boomer retirement than to fix it ( as the US has done on at least 2 previous occasions. Wish you luck but whatever happens the US standard of living is set to decline as all the choices available are bad - hope you choose those which have the least adverse impact

  9. James Dakin February 1, 2007 6:36 pm

    We will have something of a grace period. The real inflation rate is 10%, the COLA is based on the official rate which always seems to be about 3%. That should buy us a little time. After that I have my beans and bullets. Good luck

  10. Jon Hultquist February 1, 2007 7:26 pm

    It is so hypocritical of the Prechter and the Elliott Wave people to publish a chart in which they speak of gold as “Real Money”. He has been calling for gold to go below $200/oz for years.

  11. BILL bENNETT February 1, 2007 7:26 pm

    Simple solution: Remove all troups from countries around the world and Cut the size of the U.s. ARMY in HALF. Then there would be plenty of money for retiries.

  12. muleskinner February 1, 2007 7:54 pm

    Let them eat fries.

    Micky D’s is a good place to buy Newman’s Own salad dressings. You pay 21 cents for a two ounce packet. A quart of Newman’s Own has a total expense of $3.36. One heckuva bargain. It can’t be touched. They are all great salad dressings.

    Other than that, I don’t buy any food from McDonald’s other than an occasional order of fries. Who wants to be in line with your car engine running to buy a hamburger that isn’t really a hamburger?

    46 dollars for a pair of Levi’s jeans these days is beyond the pale. Those days are gone from my budget. I can afford them, I’m not paying the price. I bought a great pair of Haggar brand casual pants on sale for ten dollars. They were marked sixty dollars. It’s all in how you spend your dollar when working in the sawmill. If you have a million of them, you quit the sawmill, go home and play the banjo.

    All of those folks driving through McDonald’s aren’t driving Fords. Not good news for Ford. Bill Ford owns 8 plus million shares of Ford stock and 125,000 shares of Ebay stock. He doesn’t really care if Ford is eight dollars and change, he still has 65 million dollars or so. I doubt if he’s eating at McDonald’s. I’m sure he has more money in the bank too. I don’t think he is starting to worry and fuss about his stock. Henry might be getting worried though.

    IBM reached a low in the early nineties, about 33 dollars per share. They were kind of hamstrung for a while with too much expense and shallow cash flow, but they came back from their doldrums. At 33 dollars, it was the buy of the century. If you use the link, you’ll see that IBM was a 534 dollar stock in 1969. The dollar had value then. Stocks had great value.

    Now, it’s the McNYSE.

    I doubt if Willie Sutton would even bother to rob banks these days. The money is there; however, he would have to haul too much of it away to make it worth his while. The banksters would be insulted, maybe even cry a river.

    If the boomers ever get to retire, they are in for a big surprise. I doubt if I’ll ever quit working. All play and no work makes Jack a dull boy.

    People have no idea of how stressed out they really are. It has got to stop. A collapse would do that. Maybe it will be a blessing in disguise.

    Let them have retirement checks.

  13. Chris February 1, 2007 8:27 pm

    What does it mean to be human? Who has the answer?

  14. al February 1, 2007 9:25 pm

    Although unpublished, the still ongoing rapid expansion of the M3 has yet to hit prices in the US in a big way. It will hit someday soon and the printing presses in Washington will stay in overdrive until the world says enough, no more dollars. That may be the point in time where the rumored “Amero” may hit the forefront replacing those worthless dollars. I’m gathering and holding all the gold and silver I can get my hands on.

  15. Bob F. February 1, 2007 9:53 pm

    Begin initiating the development of a federation of sustainable communities.

  16. fred February 1, 2007 10:11 pm

    As many analysts, investors, etc. who contribute to Dollar Collapse have so frequently pointed out empires come and go and depending on one’s perceptions the reasons vary. We do not have to reread Toynbee an abridged version of Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of Rome is adequate. In any case loss of faith and hope in the future for one reason or another pretty much sums it up. A major redistribution of wealth caused naturally i.e. gravitating to an equilibrium through immense greed and stupidity so the house of cards falls or a conscious choice to drastically cut spending and put our economic house in order. In any case the dollar collapses we will be looking at a new global currency big deal. We have a 10 year depression we’ll be out of work that will give us time to cool our heels and examine our fasting skills. This I do know, knowing the reason something happens for example an earthquake at this stage of human know-how will not stop it or as you can well see even prepare people for it. We know here in California we are due for the big one anytime but we still build directly on faults. I look forward to the future sometimes you have to fight poison with poison and fire with fire.

  17. Kia February 1, 2007 11:26 pm

    Dear All,

    I am hoping for deep snowpacks and large surf.

    I suggest that everyone else buckle their seat belt and put their tray table and seat backs into their upright position then lean forward and kiss their future as they were sold it goodbye

    Peace and Change

  18. F. Gonzalves February 2, 2007 12:37 am

    It amazes me that for all the knowledge and skill that exists in the US you all are slowly going down an economic cliff that can only be labeled as stupid for the whole US of A country as a whole……

    It is becomong kind of a silent joke….

    I truly hope that you guys wake up to reality and tighten up your belts or else we are all doomed.

    Better start buying some Chinese Language books..

    Concerned Canadian Citizen.

  19. Robert Johns February 2, 2007 1:23 am

    As most of you realize broad money supply in recent times and is today running at about 10% per annum. This is so in USA, Japan, China, India, UK, Australia and most other countries ( some well in excess of 10%). This means currencies are being debased concurrently and it is those cuurencies which have debased their currencies the most will suffer the greatest loss of purchasing power. Dont bet on the USD falling all that much soon although i think it will do so in the longer term.

    For the life of me I do not understand why people invest in money market funds or bonds. They are losing big time. If the interest rate or yield is say 4.8% then the investor is losing 5.2% in purchasing power. How much longer can this go on? Consequently it is much more sensible to put at least 20% of investable funds in Gold bullion (as it is the most stable currency). One oz. of gold in 1907 ( about $20 per oz) bought a good quality( man’s) suit. One oz. of gold today will also buy the same quality suit. One US dollar 1n 1907 bought about 95% than what you can buy with it today. Silver bullion may also be wortwhile. In addition trading gold and silver shares will likely be useful to protect one’s wealth.

  20. franko February 2, 2007 5:25 am

    I curse bubblevision for the fixation on the DJIA, when a grownup would realize that a broader index is more sensible than, say S&P500. Now I see you doing your silent crash analysis on the DJIA. C’mon!!

  21. Eric February 2, 2007 5:58 am

    Excuse me, But I still believe in the power of the people to change. There is no past, there is no future, all we have is now. And for me and my family, right now it ain’t so bad.
    Under grace in a perfect way.

  22. skeptical February 2, 2007 6:28 am

    SES says “There may even be someone who comes along to rescue capitalism, as FDR did.”

    You have got to be kidding? FDR was a socialist and really turned up the socialism in this country with his “New Deal” (socialist insecurity theft/slave system) Come on now how did his socialist new deal “save” capitalism?

  23. skeptical February 2, 2007 6:32 am

    Richard G says “We are in Iraq to secure future supply, and are leaning toward an expansive war in Iran for the same reason. ”

    I agree with your assessment of the energy situation. This peak oil progoganda is just that. It worked incredible well. Look at oil prices??? We have 1000 years of energy in THIS country alone. With out coal (which can be easily liquified) and our oil shale, tar, and sands, we can cheaply and easily exist without ANY imports for 1000 years.

    Now I must disagree with your above statement. We went into Iraq for 2 reasons. 1) to CONTROL their oil - i.e. we became PART of OPEC (Iraq is one of the members and when the us took over Iraq the US became a OPEC member). If you can’t beat them - join them. 2) To bring the middle east into the NEW WORLD ORDER. I.e, what was the second thing the US did after invading (first was to control the oil)? Set up a central bank and start issuing “money”.

  24. zephyr February 2, 2007 6:40 am

    Al is dead on in 13. They hid M3 but that will only work so long. 17, F gonzalves, you are also sadly right on. I’m 42, the first year of generation X which has been much maligned. But if the Depression/WWII generation was the greatest, then it was quickly followed by the worst. The boomers have always been self-absorbed, destroying and eating and sponging everything in their path. They are the ones who have transformed us into a country with no future. They are the reason, as Michael so eloquently puts it, we have turned into a country of zombies with no real hope, just living day to day. We live to serve the masters of the house of business.

    That’s why I’m living each day to the fullest now, because The Boomers have destroyed the future and will continue to suck the marrow out as seniors. It’s true, what future do we have?? People like Michael Von Brah, 5, I hope you had fun and have a 10 foot wall around your property with armed guards. Because the coming generations are not going to be happy about being used. It’s like entering a banquet hall that’s been devastated from an orgy of excess. And as the partiers exit the room, they hand the bill to the next group for the party and damages to clean up.

    Enjoy yorself now, you’re watching history unfold. I know my future is screwed. My only joy will be watching boomers wail and gnash their teeth in despair. You transformed the world into your greedy little playground where all moral value was tossed to the winds. Enjoy your retirement!

  25. Andre Horvath February 2, 2007 6:46 am

    Very good! You are obviously aware of the underlying plan of hierarchy. The rest of you need to get educated as to what is really going on. Delve deeply into http://www.shareintl.org for more on the crisis facing humanity, expressing itself thru the economic and political fields.

  26. zephyr February 2, 2007 6:46 am

    Skeptical, as always, you are dead on also!

  27. Art Vandelay February 2, 2007 6:49 am

    zephyr #22. I’m afraid you’re right. I’m a boomer, but I never got in on that action. Greed has destroyed this once great country.

  28. muleskinner February 2, 2007 6:55 am

    “What does it mean to be human?”

    Has the corporate ‘ethic’ really changed the face of humanity that much?

    Not anymore than the Catholic Church’s ethic when the Grand Inquisitor touched the lives of millions of ‘witches’ in Europe. Galileo was forced to recant his beliefs or face extermination. Giordano Bruno wasn’t so lucky.

    A ‘witches brew’ is a real piece of history. They sold their excess brew to the general public. If a woman of the household had some extra to offer for sale, she placed her broom outside her doorway of her domicile. Later on, a market was established and the women wore tall, pointy hats for advertisement. You could see the hats easier at the market.

    Joan of Arc was burned alive at the stake. Her executioners were horrified when they went to retrieve her charred remains; her heart was still beating.

    During the Byzantine Empire, farmers in the countryside marched their daughters to town for a life of prostitution.
    Homosexual prostitution was legal, but it didn’t stop an enraged public to burn them alive when they were blamed for the troubles that had beset them. It didn’t change, homosexual prostitution remained legal. The market was open for ‘trade.’

    href=”http://bioanthropology.huji.ac.il/pdf/Faerman1998.pdf”>Here is an eye opener.

    Humanity has advanced light years, to be realistic.

    Although, I believe the corporate ‘ethic’ is to blame for the regressive situation that plagues our present dilemma.

    What do you do? Be good, not bad.

    That begins at the top. Our ‘leaders’ are not to be followed, by any means. If they are human, it leaves a lot to be desired.

    McNosis? What McNosis? We don’t need no stinking McNosis.

  29. zephyr February 2, 2007 7:00 am

    And Art 25, I must apologize….it is always wrong to paint everyone with the same brush. Of course, there are boomers who are very good people who are horrified at what their peers have done. But, taken as a whole, the boomer generation has been a parasite on the earth.

  30. skeptical February 2, 2007 7:05 am

    #24 Andre I am not sure if you are buying int the “share international” propoganda or if you are showing us what the “opposition” has planned for us. Which is it?

  31. ostrich February 2, 2007 7:29 am

    In the mid 90’s Canada’s economy, out of control deficits, gov’t spending, underfunded ss (can pension), and debt were the worst in the world.The Fiberals won the election on the promise of cleaning it all up. Today we as a nation are much better off going forward and we have a higher % of boomers than the USA. It still should be BAD after reckoning day but we have a dozen years of clean up under our belts.The difference I believe is our media were all over the deficit/debt, underfunding issues - just as today they and NOW the politicians are all over green/environment.
    My point is that somehow you must get the media all over these issues to wake up the sheeple. On the Ron Paul thread I said and still do PR wins.
    Who the hell would eat at mickey d’s - my children wouldn’t even eat there when they were young.
    Zeph - I love your party analysis of the inter generational hand-off.

  32. Rich February 2, 2007 7:56 am

    Hey zephyr #44, I’m 44 and have always resented being dumped in the boomer bucket - I think someone decided in the 80’s that the boomer generation started in 1945 and ends in 1964, something like that, so I just squeaked in to it! When I look at the demographics of the boomers I exhibit the attributes of an Xer much more. Having said that, all past and to a lesser degree present, generations are and have been responsible for the debacle. If you believe that one of the core issues in our demise as a culture is the central bank then you need to blame the generation in power during the nineteen teens! If you believe the cold war was a phoney and a means to create perpetual war for perpetual profit then you have to blame the generation in control of the US in the post WW II world - when the boomers were just being born. Bush baby is a boomer, but in reality he inherited the mess from another boomer (Clinton) who got it from Bush dad who was not a boomer - then there was Reagan etc. Bottom line is the problem starts way before current generations. The nature of the problem, the central banking system, is such that it accelerates over time - so the next generation ALWAYS appears more guilty because the system has to grow, create more debt to service the old and therefore create more war for more profit, more death and allow in a warped way for more life (more people more profit).

    As for the issue at hand with McNosis, well hmmmm. I agree with the majority of what Michael wrote, with a few exceptions. It is a little ironic to drive folks to Prechter’s promotion through this article, although there is some consistency in the approach. The irony is that blind faith in Prechter over the years has not been paid out and is approaching a form of mild delusion in and of itself (a PrechNosis if you will). Perhaps, if we all wait long enough, Prechter will be right again one day, but he’s been consistently wrong now since the last time he was right (about 20 years).

    One of the paradoxes in the article that needs debating is the criticism of the lack of willingness of the people to address deep rooted financial issues while they run around at high speeds consuming McCrap in a world where 1/3 of them are high school drop outs.

    If 1/3 of them are dropping out of high school then its not hard to understand the dilemma, they are not educated nearly enough to begin to understand the issues. The Great Dumbing Down of America (GDDOA - as the great Mogambo would say) is near completion, pretty soon the sheeple will be fully programmed, the elite will have their way and the US experiment will be complete - a multi-racial mish mash of consuming and working automatons that produce without a real voice of dissension, and consume whatever is put in front of them, good or bad will be in place.

    Next will come the inserted chips, the ID cards and the camps for those who somehow take the red pill (http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php) and see through the Matrix and start to dissent.

    I’m guessing the silent crash will roar before it’s over, it always does, the people won’t go silently forever and sooner or later the elite will be caught in a trap of their own making and will pay the highest price for their abuse.

    Why can’t we all just get along!? Live and let live, have a reasonable share of what the world has to offer and work together for a better life for future generations, does it really have to be this complicated!!??

    Cheers Rich

  33. look out below February 2, 2007 8:14 am

    The boomers have destroyed this planet. There has never been a more selfish generation in the history of civilization than the evil baby boomers, unjust entitlement has been theyre mantra since they were (unfortunately) born.

    I figured out the “people” responsible for the HUGE problems we all now face a while ago…I just sat back and watched knowing full well that the rest of the world would eventually figure them out, well they did. Now its going to be a very, very bad time to be in that age category. Hell, it might even become sport to kill em in certain cultural groups. Exterminations throughout history have been propagated for much worse crimes than what they are responsible for

    Those old bastards will just not leave !! They STILL control most all of the politicians seats, run most all of the major multinational corporations, hold positions of immense power….but it will change fairly soon I would venture to guess….and when the entire world looks for the pricks that have been at the helm when this world hits the rocks will get their retribution. It couldnt come to a more “deserving” group than the baby boomers….Im glad iam NOT one of them ! ….they will see soon enough.

    Younger people will spit on them as they walk by and see them starving on the streets of what used to be the best country in the world….this country gave HOPE to everyone else on this planet that wasnt as fortunate to be born into the USA. I say: Melt em down, every person if cooked at the right temperature long enough, for the correct amount of time will yield appx. 1-1/2 gallons of oil.

  34. kia February 2, 2007 8:24 am


    Spot on, my question is how do you see the sheeple reacting to the “roaring” silent crash?

    Will it be the frog in the pot on low? Or will it be a violent uprising?

    I’d be interested in your take.


  35. muleskinner February 2, 2007 8:30 am

    Pardon me. I will express my righteous indignation on the baby boomer is at fault scapegoating crapola.

    I suppose you can fill up a book of faults on them and then redeem them like a book of S&H greenstamps.

    It’s all hogwash and it doesn’t wash. You’re all wet.

    Soon after the boomers implode, the X’ers will be blamed by the what is called the Generation Y, or Why?

    Nice try, but try again.

    What has Generation X done to deserve to be able to be the jury, judge and executioner?

    Nothing. Nitwits, one and all. You’ll get marched to the guillotine too.

    “… And the vision that was planted in my brain still remains within the sounds of silence.” - Paul Simon, boomer nonpareil

    get freaking real, get a haircut and get a real job.

  36. Sapiens February 2, 2007 8:36 am

    Wow, why don’t we just take a moment.

  37. Sapiens February 2, 2007 8:37 am
  38. Rich February 2, 2007 8:39 am

    Hehe muleskinner, nice one! Made me laugh. Entitlements were invented in the 20’s and rolled out in the 30’s way before the boomers were a twinkle in anyone’s eye. The issues are deep and multi-generational - you can’t blame a generation for this anymore than you can blame white people for being the scourge of the earth (well we are, but lets not go there!).

    kia, the frog is on slow boil right now, but at some point it’s internals are going to overheat and expand and then explode. The ricochet of guts will take out the chef, the plot will crack and frog will enter heaven knowing it took down the whole kit and kaboodle! :)

    Then the A Generation will take over and begin the cycle once again, new pot, new frog, new chef!

    Cheers Rich

  39. skeptical February 2, 2007 8:45 am

    Damn “look up below” you are full of rage, anger and hatred and unfortunately it is directed at the wrong people. The boomers INDIVIDUALLY are no different that those in YOUR age group (whatever that is). As a group they hold more perceived power just because they are a larger group. It is nothing more than that.

    Rich says “Why can’t we all just get along!? Live and let live, have a reasonable share of what the world has to offer and work together for a better life for future generations, does it really have to be this complicated!!??”

    You all do not appreciate just yet the evils in the world today are planned and have been going on for ALL of recorded history. Man has NEVER been free, the world has NEVER been just, and history NEVER changes because those “forces” directing history NEVER change. This pollyanna talk about living and letting live, and going along to get along, blah blah blah. WAKE UP PEOPLE - It is a fixed game with a well planned end (comming to a theater near you - soon).

  40. skeptical February 2, 2007 8:50 am

    Sorry that was suppose to be “look out below” not “look up below”

    I can’t type worth a sh…

  41. bp February 2, 2007 10:14 am

    skeptical, I kinda liked “look up below”, hehe

    thanks to that link to Catherine Austin Fitts, even though you called her Katherine, hehe - took me forever to read through it though

    and yeah, for the rest of you I am a BOOMER….go search my comments and see if I sound like your stereo type…until you all get out of this labeling issue, you’re gonna have trouble dealing with reality - honestly how immature

    skeptical, though I don’t always agree with you, I have to say at least you are willing to look this beast in the face, heheh

    we are all conditioned, even those we consider evil - we need to learn to see thru the illusions — Rich can you send me a red pill - I lost mine, damn

  42. KenM February 2, 2007 10:26 am

    I rarely write comments but being one of those bad guy boomers I think I’d like to add my $0.02 here.

    It seems most speak of boomers (Rush Limbaugh for example) as leaches on the system. He and others state that since there are so many of us that the system will fail as if it is a problem of shear numbers.
    What no one seems to ask is, Where is all that money this huge group paid in. Once in a while someone will comment on how the feds blew all the money but its stated as a matter of fact,,, as if it is to be expected rather then the outright fraud it is. I hear no outcry, no demands of where the money is, Hell our Offense Department ‘misplaced’ a trillion dollars with very little comment.
    The National debt interest, almost $400 billion (probably more), is not even mentioned when Bernake, other ‘Feds’ and economists talk about how our system is going to crumble because of the ‘BABY BOOMERS”
    AS I see it I am paying into the SSI (Social Security Insurance) fund. This insurance is supposed to assist me when I am a retired leach. What would be said if you paid into an auto insurance program for years only to be told “Sorry, We spent all the money” when you try to collect, and the answer being touted is that you should feel bad for wanting to collect.
    Why is it most are hell bent on screwing the poor bastards that paid into the system for umpteem years while letting our elected officials off the hook. Have you seen ‘their’ retirement benefits?????? I guarantee none of them will be eating cat food like us boomer leaches in twenty years. But, on and on we go about everything being the fault of the boomers.

    You want the answer??
    I’ll give you the answer, Everyone in government elected officials, Union workers et all be put in the SSI system.

    I guarantee you they will “FIX IT”.. They’ll raise taxes, they’ll cut spending, they’ll stop waging war on every little sh–box country in the world that can’t defend itself, they’ll stop shipping off those high paying jobs to China, India and Vietnam and they will stop the southern invasion which is holding down the wages.

    Think we’ll do it… Nope! We’ll just go on complaining about those boomer leaches as Rush Scumbaugh puts it.

    Well thats the way a boomer scum sees it. Hope it doesn’t offend too many folks

  43. muleskinner February 2, 2007 10:32 am

    Hey, speak up, stop your McNosis. If your want to call me a complete shithead, go ahead. I know, I’m being a pious prick too. You got both barrels. So sotty.

    I can take it. As for the crocodile tears, I’ll feed ya some crow.

    “First they came for the Cry Baby Boomers, but I wasn’t a Cry Baby Boomer, so I didn’t scream and holler and yell.”

    As for the evil that exists, do searches like Rock Creek Park, Chandra Levy, Gary Condit, etc., followed by the word ‘evil.’

  44. Adrian Buckley February 2, 2007 10:44 am

    I apologise in advance to a predominantly American readership , I am an Englishman who has travelled the globe for the past 25 years ,I am the son of a former chief executive of an American corporation , I am 44 years old, over my years of travelling (something very few Americans do, only 10% of Americans own a passport)I have frequently bumped into peoples of many different cultures and races , 25 years ago the world loved America , Frank sinatra , The Statue of liberty , Babe Ruth, even Ronnie Reagan had a certain charm, but I have to tell you that you would have to travel a long long way to find anyone in the world today who will not rejoice when the crash awaiting America happens, my country has been foolishly and naively led by a lying fool for the past ten years who was so overawed at the neo-con administration that he rolled over and embarrassed the UK in his fawning to the Gangsters on Capitol Hill. An example of American courseness and lack of experience that i have seen repeated a thousand times in far flung parts of the globe occurred to me last week whilst I was in business in Thailand, I was eating alone at a riverside restaurant in the Shangri-la hotel in Bangkok, surrounded by first time American travellers, one table had a group of brash young people shouting out loud about how the third world “ain’t so bad” and I reflected that were it not for the hard work and productive abilities of those Asians (who for some foolish reason continue to exchange their production for green printed paper which has 60 trillion of debt backing it)the fat grunting boorish yobs who demonstrated no respect whatsoever for the waitresses or locals would have to get up off those fat arses and actually earn a living by doing some real work like the people they were being so derogatory towards, behind me sat an older (sinatra generation) couple the sort of Americans I used to admire , the man started shouting and wagging his finger at a waitress because the food was spicy, well waken up old man you had gone into a Thai restaurant in Bangkok where if you only understood a little about the world you would know that ALL the Thai food is spicy , and further you would know that wagging a finger at a kind , underpaid , and delightful young lady in Thailand is a cultural faux pas of the first order and is gravely insulting. these are just two personal experiences in a single restaurant in a single day , i could recount hndreds but i won’t bore you further, America will waken up to the fact that they have shown no respect for and have little understanding of the world beyond Fox News when that world has ticker tape celebrations (American style) when the American economy crashes like no other crash the world has ever seen, it is brewing now, the leaders of China and Russia are nudging it along, the rest of the world is waiting for it to happen, I will not join the celebrations when the day comes because I once loved your country, I will be sad that a young country with so much to give chose only to take , as a result many millions of Americans will be impoverished beyond their imagination and America will become the new third world , perhaps we could call it the fourth world , a world inhabited by former first world crashed nations, led by America and probably followed by my own country.

  45. ostrich February 2, 2007 10:54 am

    I didn’t realize Reagan and Greenspan were boomers.

  46. John February 2, 2007 11:17 am


    Just loved the ‘Ballad of a Thin Man’ quote;

    “Something is happening, but you don’t know what it is - do you, Mr. Jones?”

    You are spot on as nearly always.

    And to Adrian Buckley’s February 2nd, 2007 at 10:44 am quote,

    Adrian, Please to have a little pity on those of us who agree with you and your observations of my once great and admired country. What you feel pales to the feelings some of us have knowing what you said, and knowing of our national history abroad. Out of 300 million, there are 10’s of millions who “Know” the truth.

    As little impact as those in your country’s colonial days who disagreed, and as much impact those german citizens had/would have had in Germany in the 30’s.

    We watch these last 25 years (since Ronnie Raygun) as we squandered our “Good Will” and Name abroad.

    Yes, all the way back before ‘53 when we overthrew a democratically elected Iranian president for …. YOUR BP oil company.

    “There is so much good in the worst of us,
    and so much bad in the best of us,
    it’s hard to tell which of us,
    should reform the rest of us”

    “You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can’t make him think”

    Fare thee well, all of us


  47. kia February 2, 2007 11:29 am


    You hit it out of the park, I am a 49 year old native Californian who has spent 2/3 of my last 30 years working in the third world. The Americans are not just the biggest know nothings on the the planet, they are don’t want to know nothings, despite the fact that the information is readily available to them, once they turn off the electronic sewer pipe which feeds them their electronic soma. Their diet of ignorance will cost them the values that the entire world envys.

    My question for you is, once Bush’s lap dog resigns for his party’s participation in the honors for money scandal how long do you think that the UK will stay in Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan?

    Thanks for your contribution.


  48. Don February 2, 2007 11:39 am

    It is always unfortunate that the immediate reaction is to look for a scapegoat to blame. In this case Boomers. Other posters are correct, the problems go back at least to pre Civil War days.

    Casting a blanket of blame over an entire generation because they happened to be born in a time that enabled them to enjoy the great country we used to have is self-defeating. The ongoing problem is that no significant number of any generation, save for the founding fathers, has taken RESPONSIBILITY for fixing the situation.

    The main problem is understanding the historical context of how we came to the dilemma we now find ourselves in. Education in the U.S. has eroded to such a degree that current school age to younger Xers have little real education. Incidentally, this is one reason why foreign nationals are brought here to work for corporations, and corporations relocate overseas. This is a real drain on our economy that younger generations are more directly responsible for. Work ethic is also noticeably less with the Xer and younger generations. They are very adept at pushing buttons and playing with technology, but have no real understanding of history farther back than their own peer group. The generations that say, “That was so five minutes ago”.

    Much of this is by design. The school system does not emphasise true learning and education, things that a well-rounded and educated person should posses. If the government run school system did encourage real learning and not just prep school for learning a trade, people would not be so easily deceived and led like sheep.

    But the reality is that the disinformation has gone on for so long that it is much easier to point the finger of blame, just like someone crying out racism to avoid having a real discussion on an issue. All signs of immaturity regardless of the individual’s age.

    To fix anything, one has to understand why it is broken. The U.S. is still the best country in the world. To get back to our former greatness as a nation, it is absolutely essential that we again strive to be number one in education. As a people we must cherish our heritage of freedom and the system of government we were founded with. If the average person is too ignorant to comprehend the value of our system, and lacks the ability to spot breakdowns and problems in it, then it will not survive another generation. You get the government you deserve. Responsibility rests with an educated and involved citizenry.

    Emotion and anger will play no part in a real solution to the problems we face as a nation. Without the ability to think with a cool head and logically come up with viable solutions we are all lost. Be part of the solution or part of the problem.

  49. Adrian Buckley February 2, 2007 11:48 am

    Kia, Sadly because of our own entrenched position in all of this , because our secret service MI6 knows that we need the oil through the Afghan pipelines, because of Britains position as primary currency trader/paper shuffler in the city of London we know we need to maintain the dollar at all costs, (Britian has somehow acquired 120,000,000,000 dollars of US debt in recent months , even though we are up to our own necks in debt) , I am afraid we are in too deep to get out and anyone who becomes prime minister will walk up the stairs at Number 10 look at the portraits of Churchill, Thatcher,Disraeli et al. and believe they too can run the world so they will not get out of those countries because their stupid perverted ego’s won’t permit them.
    we are cousins walking the same stupid path…..

  50. Adrian Buckley February 2, 2007 12:24 pm

    we do have a few wise politicians in England

    I implore you to watch this video


  51. Gordo February 2, 2007 12:30 pm

    “Sorry for ranting on about that website but cmon. I just signed up for laughs and giggles and whats the first thing I see?

    A Major Deflation is Approaching
    - September 1998, at the bottom right of main page.

    LOL I was making my first million in 1998 playing junior tech stocks and this guy was preaching deflation.
    What a joke. ”

    I think this is a valid criticism. Perma bears don’t make money, and more importantly, a good investor (indeed a good PERSON) needs to avoid infection. Please see
    a little article from the Kirk Report today.

    10. Infection: avoid the unhappy and unlucky. (This is right on the money. I couldn’t have said this better myself. Who you surround yourself with will ultimately determine your destiny. Marry for love, choose your friends carefully, and spend time with people who’ve been more successful and who are much smarter than you. Good and bad emotional states are as infectious as a disease.)

    If you hang around “the infected” you will catch the disease!

  52. Mr.T February 2, 2007 1:38 pm

    I reckon the wave of retiring baby boomers will have an impact ont he economy for sure. However, i do not think the finacial burden caused by these retirees is the cause but the effect of lack of political constraints regards the printing of FIAT paper to finance wars and all the secret services etc , that are required to impliment and sustain them.
    Our savings have been and are being eroded on a daily basis until we have no way of providing for our own future.
    even as we have earned the pultry interest we are taxed on that also …so income tax on top of the hidden inflationary silent tax…..OOOOOOH MY NUTS!
    When i first started thinking about retiring about 1980 you could have been well on the way there with $100,000 in the bank at around 15% interest. I was earning $18. hour in the oilpatch and could buy a new v8 for about $7500.
    So don’t give me that shit about it being the baby boomers fault!
    Look to the Federal Reserve and the Central Banks and the Rich Elite that control them . And most of all before you spew crap about the boomers do your research!
    Or are you suffering from McNosis also?

  53. bp February 2, 2007 1:55 pm

    #50 Adrian, i liked the video - I’ve seen articles about Galloway before - nice that he is willing to stand up for the “little people” - I think a topic that has come up here a lot is the trend toward the concentration of power in the hands of the few and the ill effects that that has on society at large. It seems blatant lying has become common place anymore - of course since a “fish rots from the head down” we can expect this corruption to spread downward - and I will have to admit in the last 20-30 years I have seen politics and corruption spread deeper and deeper down into the institutions in this country. Not a good omen, but ya play the cards yer dealt, or as Rummy says “ya go to war with the army you have…”

    perhaps we are all “cousins walking the same stupid path…..”, and perhaps we will someday learn a better way, hopefully - I suspect our learning will be painful.

  54. muleskinner February 2, 2007 2:43 pm

    ‘I’ve backed away quickly from those that would burn me.’ - Guy Clark

    For those of you who believe that evil is somehow separate from your world, when Vincent Bugliosi was prosecuting Charlie Manson, one day, while in the court room, he noticed Charlie staring . Vincent looked at his watch; it had stopped.

    Charlie is such a kind soul. “I want to see bodies stacked as high as I can see.” - Charlie Manson

    The State of California has a great deal of money invested in Charlie. He’s one boomer that went bust.

    Vincent Bugliosi doesn’t have much good to say about the Bush whateveritis either.

    I’ll write it down on paper: Vincent Bugliosi knows evil when he sees it.

    Vincent doesn’t have very kind words for the Supreme Court either. No need to wonder why.

    It’s enough to make a grown man cry.

  55. mikeck44 February 2, 2007 3:53 pm

    Look out below #33 - That is broad brush you are painting with. I was born just before the boomers; however, I’m sure your brush would extend to include me, but that’s okay, I’ve got broad shoulders and can take it. Actually, I’ve always been more like those that came before me, more a saver than spender and willing to fight my own battles. Give me back all I’ve put into those corrupt guvmnt plans and cut me loose and I’ll be happy. You really should have read the well reasoned post of Rich, #32, and zephyr, #29, before going over the deep end.

  56. kia February 3, 2007 11:59 am


    Thanks for the Galloway clip, It is nice to see someone speak the truth, not something seen here in America.

    I suspect that we are witnessing the end of the Anglo-American axis.

    Once again, thank you for your input, I appreciate your perspective and it’s nice for the Americans to be exposed to truth periodically. It is my sincere hope that they develop a taste for it.


  57. kia February 3, 2007 12:24 pm

    Dear All,

    Just a note on the boomer bashing that is going on in the thread.

    As a boomer I have always wondered how a generation that experienced Vietnam, Watergate, and the Energy Crisis could preside over our current circumstances. Of course I also wondered why my generation could ditch all the lessons learned of the 70’s and actively pursue the empty Yuppie dream of hyper-consumption.

    For my money we are living in Reagan’s dream world. He convinced Americans that their own personal welfare was the only thing that should matter to them. Freed of their conscience and certain of America’s rightness in all it’s actions they sat back and watched the Iran-Contra operation, the mining of Nicuarguan harbors, and all the lies required to support it. It is no surprise that the felons who were convicted of lieing are still employed in the government (Elliot Abrams, John Poindexter et. al.)

    The lies live on, yellow cake from Niger, WMD, 911. Anyone who doesn’t understand this should watch the Scooter Libby trial very closely.

    For what it is worth. Not all of us bought it, in fact I despise it. But regard blame as useless. It is time for us to stand together against the lies. The PTB are counting on us fighting amongst ourselves.

    Our Time and Energy is limited. It’s not time to fix blame, It’s time to fix the problem together.


  58. Michael Von Brah February 3, 2007 1:25 pm

    Sapein 37 is that some satatnic cult???

  59. Michael Von Brah February 3, 2007 1:26 pm

    Sapien 37 is that some satanic cult?

  60. ostrich February 3, 2007 2:07 pm

    Kia #57 I was into research about the power/corp elite long before Reagan; boomer bashers re-read #45; if you can’t beat the boomers get them to join in. Unfortunately most of them did - mortgages,kids, taxes,taxes,taxes inflation. Oh did I mention taxes.
    Just a thought for the boomer females did they really liberate women or put a new ball and chain around them (taxes).

  61. larry February 3, 2007 2:15 pm

    the fed has 2 tools ….volume of money and credit they create or the interest charged on the money….i believe first as usual they will print money and try to stimulate…when that fails they will lower rates and when that fails….deflation is the default play occuring when people stop major economic activity….the pushing on a string delema eventually trumps money and credit printing policies…..real interest rates then reverse and holding money is better than borrowing it for things that are depreciating

  62. Rich February 3, 2007 4:34 pm

    The Fed is the tool.

    It is the tool of its owners.

    It’s owners are the families that also hold the controlling interest in the major banks of the west, which in turn hold a lot of direct and indirect influence over the largest corporations in the world.

    So when you think about the Fed you need to also understand how it is closely related to commercial banks and what they are doing. It’s beyond symbiosis.

    The Fed system is designed to give these banking families monopoly control of the economy over time, that job is almost complete, ironically, it would appear, right at the point that the US Dollar is running out of steam and the system itself is going in to hyper inflationary mode, albeit barely perceptibly to the common man at this point.

    The way I understand the basic mechanism of the Fed itself it is predestined to consume itself over time and have to reset. It’s like a serpent that is consuming itself from the tail upwards towards it’s own head. The more FRN’s (credit and dollars) the Fed creates the bigger the system, the more the banking members benefit, the more their monopoly increases, the more the dollar devalues. At the same moment that they (the Fed owners) actually own everything the system hyper inflates in to oblivion and forces a reset.

    Any period of deflation over the course of running the system to it’s end game, which produces totally monopoly control for it’s owners, is purely a tactical device used to continue the veneer of legitimacy the system needs to maintain in order for the sheeple never to understand it (the Matrix).

    The End Game is when the monopoly moves in to collect on the debt owed by everyone in the system, either directly through mortgages and loans, or indirectly by governments “backed” by the people (hehe!). We are entering in to this period now. For collection to be made the owners need to get tough at some point, that is where it gets ugly. But they also need to perform a reset that enables them to now maintain their total control without destabilizing the whole program, and causing a revolution, etc. I guess we’re seeing the reset as the emerging Amero.

    Anyway, that’s (in a nutshell) how I see the Fed’s ability to control Inflation, Deflation, Masturbation and Sterilization. Give it a few more decades and they’ll control everything.

    Cheers Rich

  63. kia February 3, 2007 4:41 pm


    Could you talk more about the implications/situation around the coming “reset”.

    What do you see as the best defense?

    Good post brother,


    (I didn’t know they were in charge of Masturbation too ;-)

  64. bp February 3, 2007 5:29 pm

    hm, Rich did you read that site posted by skeptical about Catherine Austin Fitts - I’d say the Controllers have the enforcement/police system, the prison system, the drug distribution and the weapon manufacturing on their side - if ya put everyone in prison and force them to work for below minimum wages producing for the Controllers, I’d say that is a sweet deal - this coming “reset” may not mean go back to square one.

  65. Fritz Prince February 3, 2007 5:58 pm

    The Kondratieff wave bottomed around 2000 (gold bottom), we have the typical unpopular war and a commodities bull market. This is the cycle of inflation. The cycle of disinflation (when paper assets rule) began with the Volker hike in rates in the early 80’s, when gold collapsed.

    So……lets do this all over again….for the next ?20 years.


  66. Fritz Prince February 3, 2007 6:09 pm

    We professional commodity traders know the Fed is The Creature From Jekyll Island. So? Play the inflation wave. T-bills at 5% will not get you ahead of the curve. If USD drops below 80, switch currencies, buy more gold…or both. Just understand that this is the secular commodity bull market. The rest is beyond our control. It ain’t pretty….never has been. The fact that the ’silent crash’ has still gone unnoticed by the masses is good news for a continued bullish posture re: commodities. They will wake up…..and that is when you distribute to them (as they get manic), but it’s a long way off. Carpe diem!

  67. pat reynolds February 3, 2007 6:30 pm

    I dont know about all of this. I have heard the doom and gloom since the 70s. Technology has exploded and I think will change everything over the next 10 years with explosive growth on the part of the United States. The real problem is the loss of morals because of big brother taking away parents rights to discipline The Romans lost their morals and lost their country but as far as doom and gloom I am more optimist than others

  68. RandallT4 February 3, 2007 9:36 pm

    I am a boomer but I don’t feel guilty because I am still alive. My generation takes a lot of heat because they questioned the value of living the workaday life, the politics of the Cold War, America’s imperialistic aspirations and Victorian moral system. The hated directed at our generation for their stance resulted in violence, family division, polarization and concomitant disaffection. But the cultural influence forged by first-the Beat Generation, then later the hippies, revolutionaries, and various liberation movements definitely changed society, affording Generation X and Y many of the freedoms they have today. What the youth today might not realize is that we Boomers struggled also, working low-paying jobs, driving ancient cars, living in low rent neighborhoods, going to school during the day and working at night. When I drew my first paychecks I made $1.25 an hour. To categorize us as a spoiled generation is absurd. Maybe Generation X and Y hate us because they really hate themselves and all I can say to that is “all you need is love”

  69. kia February 3, 2007 9:46 pm


    Amen brother,


  70. muleskinner February 3, 2007 9:49 pm

    The yearning to be free

    This business of straightjacketing the economy with ‘free trade’ is getting old fast.

    It is Statist in scope.

    Maybe some are comfortable with the idea that a pogrom against ‘boomers’ is acceptable. Even potential genocide of ‘boomers’ is entertained. That is Statist.

    It is also as stupid as it gets.

    Joseph Stalin would be your best friend. Joseph Stalin wouldn’t blink an eye at sending you the the Gulag if you would look at him the wrong way.

    Here in America, the gulags continue. Unicor is the prison industries that enriches those who choose to ‘think’ that it is ok to ‘rehabilitate’ ‘incorrigible recividists.’ In essence, have them work for peanuts.

    Seth found considerable incongruity in the way the education department at Ft. Dix presents itself and the way things actually stand. Administrators have covered the walls with platitudes that bear no consistency with the type of behavior that the department-or the entire prison system-encourages among its inmate population. Indeed, a ‘model inmate’ is one who performs unskilled labor in the prison factory, one who never asks a question or presents any request out of the ordinary. A model inmate will not seek to educate himself beyond the very basic courses offered by the prison system.

    For example, a prisoner may complete a three-month computer program, which offers him enough time to learn basic word processing and spread-sheet functions. But the prisoner will not be allowed to learn more sophisticated software applications. And a model inmate would not even try. A model inmate might learn about the principals of sound investing, but in order to comply with an absurd system of rules, he would never even consider applying what he has learned. A model inmate might learn to express himself with words, but he would be discouraged from publishing anything. Indeed, the model inmate should never strive to distinguish himself in this Orwellian world of prison administrators.

    Ambition, creativity, tenacity, all may be virtues that help an individual succeed in Western civilization. Behind these prison gates, however, such personal attributes give rise to indignation among many staff members, some of whom are gifted in the arts of vindictiveness-and they will tell you as much.

    Who has really been dumbed down in this country? How can those in government really believe that the population of souls, the poor teeming masses yearning to be free, are there to serve them? How stupid can you get to believe your own lies?

    When the Puritans worked the hinterlands in England, it was for more than survival. The Puritans were considered liberal during those times from ca. 1400 to 1640 CE. They rejected the Anglican Church, basically, the didn’t follow the edicts of the King. They rejected the Roman Catholic Church. They weren’t buying into the baloney. They knew the score. They couldn’t be fooled completely, just sometimes.

    The Puritans were also tricked out of their money and belongings many a time. A Danish sea captain promised to give a group of Puritans passage to Denmark out of England. When they got to the port to board ship, they were arrested, robbed, and imprisoned. The King, the State, made it uncomfortable for the Puritans. They persevered. They scrimped and saved, survived against all odds.

    They yearned to be free… from the State.

    Yearn to be free. The technological advances will even chip you… so you will chip in again and again and again and again.

    Then you’ll never know how you got hoodwinked into being an automaton. By then you’ll not notice a thing. The Silent Crash will be complete. All charmed by McNosis. Don’t be fooled into thinking that it can’t happen to you. It can.

    Don’t be stupid. THINK

  71. muleskinner February 3, 2007 9:57 pm

    the hyperlinks didn’t take



    Unicor prisoner life

  72. Turk February 3, 2007 10:18 pm

    I hear so many people who are not part of the boomer demographic blaming all the ills of the failing system on the boomers. Who brought the boomers into the world? Who created the system we have all taken for granted for so many decades? As a tail end boomer, I woke up to the social security, medicare situation I would face and I have long planned for a retirement that doesn’t include social security. Although I have paid into it, to support not the retired years of my boomer generation but the past and current retired years the ‘greatest generation’,thanks to government greed and squandering what was meant to be a trust but became simply another raidable public treasure chest. I have earned my forty credits and more, I am planning on it either not being there or being substantially slashed by the time I can collect it. Most boomers have not planned for the worst but have placed their faith in the system. They can not go back and live their lives over, they placed their faith in a sytem created by a previous generation, not theirs. I would gladly take a portion of what I would be paid in my social security annuity in a small lump sum today and give up the claim in the future in order to save it for those who haven’t had the ability, time or opportunity to change course. The average majority of social security recipients live for ten years after they begin collecting. I would gladly take one third of my ten years in a lump sum today to pad my current portfolio. perhaps the government should consider a pay off to people like me to conserve for the impending annuity pay out. medicare and health care for the boomer elderly is a whole other enchilada that will require serious overhaul. radical problems inevitebly require radical solutions, no matter how far-fetched they sound at first.

  73. m1953 February 3, 2007 10:49 pm

    The report is entitled Converging Technologies for Improving Human Performance, Using NanoTechnology, Biotechnology, Information Tecnology and Cognitive Science, Please Read it, here are some tid-bits: Implanted Human-Machine interfaces, (within 10-20 years), Electronically Augmented Human Cognition ( 20 - 30 Years) “These new technologies require DRASTIC changes in Education, Human Learning and Memory.” Page 436, JUST Read it!! Inflation, Deflation, I don’t Know But Ladies Gentelmen, TPTB have much bigger plans for control.

  74. m1953 February 3, 2007 11:29 pm

    In fairness as a “Boomer” (I quess 1953 qualifies) Kia, Muleskinner, RandallT4 Zephyr, as usual outstanding posts, outstanding analysis, In short can it be that genx or y or z or whatever they call themselves, could it be that they now realize they all have been had by susch a simple business-slavery model ala McDonalds: to wit “Hey Kid your’e now a manager, your gonna make 50 Cents an hour more than everyone else, You can fire them if you have too” Now of course we EXPECT you to go the extra mile, take one for the team now and again, and of course as manager you will be working a lot more than just 40 Hours a week” Yep GE, Microsoft, Citi-Corp, Goldman-Sachs ALL Learned from Micky D make em a manager. Yep us stupid Boomers, to think we actually questioned the “man” to think we would actually not want to be managers for an additonal 50 cents or whatever. Yea here we go I quess Richard Nixon the POTUS who finally closed the gold window was a boomer, I quess King George the First of Bushalia, the one who pushed NAFTA and GATT was a Boomer, I quess Davey Boy Rockefeller who can’t wait till we all are chipped is a Boomer. yea yea yea I can here those little Gen-X minds now, in the work force a whole 5 years and already they have it all figured out. “it’s it’s all the fault of those BOOMERS (or is it Bloomers??)”we got to work 80 hours a week so they can get social security” Yea Right come kid your a manager now….

  75. m1953 February 3, 2007 11:35 pm

    apologies to ostrich and rich, i also meant to include your names in the above along with muleskinner, kia et-al

  76. Robert johns February 4, 2007 3:28 am

    Having read the comments up to this point i tend to think that it is just another avenue for letting off steam by many disgruntled people - including myself. but what are we actually going to do that makes a difference? Are we going to write to incumbent politicans and vent your spleen? Are we going to protest on the streets especially at election time? Are we going to hand out leaflets to the general populace exposing ( in a factual, easy to read and objective manner) the fraudulent manner of government and central banks? Just what are you going to do?
    Most of you i suspect will just get a beer, kick the dog and sigh ” that’s life” - i suggest you stop bitching or get on with it - do something!!!

  77. prometheus firebringer February 4, 2007 3:37 am

    A program called Logans Run rings a bell

  78. Dr Jane Karlsson February 4, 2007 5:53 am

    m1953 72 and 73, can’t get that report, help please. I do know it exists, I’ve heard about it.

    Here’s some interesting stuff from the site you gave us on an earlier thread: http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2006/01/space-cadets.html
    about how magnetic fields can make us travel faster than light. This is taken very seriously by the military: http://www.roswellproof.com/Gen_Wesley_Clark_UFOs.html

  79. Dr Jane Karlsson February 4, 2007 6:11 am

    skeptical 23, are you really saying that oil can be extracted from oil shale, tar and sands cheaply and easily? Can you give us a reference? Were you here when the stranger and others discussed this topic?

  80. Ernest Wilson February 4, 2007 8:11 am

    This problem exists because an elite group benefits from the ability to create mountains of debt without suffering the consequences. Pete Peterson is a member of the financial elite who only cares about preserving the value of Federal Reserve Notes.

    Americans have been forced into borrowing to eat and protect their assets from the effects caused by the beneficiaries of the current system. Private, profit seeking companies are selling claims on the assets and labor of the American people without their permission. This is slavery.

    The overnight solution to the problem is the elimination of legal tender laws. Why not? The US would recover in a few years. Holders of the resulting trash can take up the issue with the managers of private businesses now run by Bernanke, Blankfein, Rubin, Dimon and Peterson to name a few.

    The collapse is coming. In the meantime, we can distract ourselves by discussing fairtax, flat tax, tax increases, means testing and other devices intended to keep the world financial criminal enterprise going by stealing more from the American people. Anyone anxious to preserve this system is suspect. Keeping the balls in the air will just delay and amplify the inevitable destruction.

    By the way, “the gold standard” is simply another fiat money scheme that will be run by the same crooks we have now. We need to get government out of the money definition business if this nonsense is ever going to end.

    A law punishing the issuance of promises to pay or deliver anything but a good or a service is sorely needed. Notes promising to pay gold, silver, platinum, palladium, copper, foodstuffs and services of all kinds would circulate freely in such a legal environment. The value of any note could be determined by calculations based on free market transactions and the identity of the issuer.

  81. m1953 February 4, 2007 8:30 am

    Dr Jane, I will foward you a copy, it has mpoex@aol.com as the sender

  82. m1953 February 4, 2007 8:42 am

    Dr, Jane I sent it out now, it is in Adobe PDF format, I found your e-mail address in post #411 of the “Does Fed want to stop deflation” Please let us know if you recieved it

  83. skeptical February 4, 2007 9:15 am

    Dr Jane yes that is what I am saying. My information comes from a private source that I cannot easily transfer to this medium. Here are some quotes though

    “The [shell oil co] ICP process involves drilling holes and inserting electric heaters to gradually heat the rock over a long period of time. This heating process causes the organic matter (kerogen) trapped in the shale to be released as oil and gas, with the heavy compounds partially converted into lighter end products, where they are then recovered at the surface.

    Shell oil is now doing this on a test site (in Colorado I think). Do an internet search on “Shell ICP process” and read through what you find.

  84. bp February 4, 2007 9:35 am

    uuuuhhhhh, where is stranger???

  85. bp February 4, 2007 9:47 am

    #77 Robert johns, Re: Most of you i suspect will just get a beer, kick the dog and sigh ” that’s life” - i suggest you stop bitching or get on with it - do something!!!

    patience grasshopper, patience - all in due course - to solve a problem one must be able to understand it - there are many parts to this problem that are still being brought to light — darn younger generation, so impatient, heh

  86. m1953 February 4, 2007 9:58 am

    Robert johns, #77 Very Fair and Honest Question you ask, Yes I will demonstrate and be vocal near and on Selection Day, No I will not write to nor petition any of these lying theievs. They no longer listen they could care less as long as the money roles in from the special interests, they could care less who and why we vote. Look at how many incumbnants were overturned this past november.Lets look at the recent “victory” of the demo-pubs winning both Houses and with it the power to supeona, Well all I heard from Madam (Mada is so appropraite in this case) Speaker is: 1) Impeachement is off the Table, 2) “I want” (Madam Pelosi that is) military transport for me and my familiy when i commute from california to wash dc, I quess expecting her to travel first class on a commercial flight is too much of a “security risk” Yeah right, she may actually rub elbows with the serfs working 80 hours a week and we can’t have that. yep last time i voted was for Ross Perot, He seems to have been about 85% accurate in most of his predictions

  87. muleskinner February 4, 2007 9:58 am

    Flip Flop it never stops

    Now, ladies and gentlemen, if I may proceed to give you some other words that I think you can understand — I am not going to belabor you by quoting tonight — I am going to tell you what the wise men of all ages and all times, down even to the present day, have all said: That you must keep the wealth of the country scattered, and you must limit the amount that any one man can own. You cannot let any man own $300,000,000,000 or $400,000,000,000. If you do, one man can own all of the wealth that the United States has in it.

    Now, my friends, if you were off on an island where there were 100 lunches, you could not let one man eat up the hundred lunches, or take the hundred lunches and not let anybody else eat any of them. If you did, there would not be anything else for the balance of the people to consume.

    So, we have in America today, my friends, a condition by which about 10 men dominate the means of activity in at least 85 percent of the activities that you own. They either own directly everything or they have got some kind of mortgage on it, with a very small percentage to be excepted. They own the banks, they own the steel mills, they own the railroads, they own the bonds, they own the mortgages, they own the stores, and they have chained the country from one end to the other, until there is not any kind of business that a small, independent man could go into today and make a living, and there is not any kind of business that an independent man can go into and make any money to buy an automobile with; and they have finally and gradually and steadily eliminated everybody from the fields in which there is a living to be made, and still they have got little enough sense to think they ought to be able to get more business out of it anyway.

  88. the stranger February 4, 2007 10:31 am

    The collapse that is coming will be blamed on Capitalism, and not the semi-socialist, proto-fascist imperial globalization that it is. What we have morphed into carries the old label, so that Capitalism (with its embedded liberties) can be slain once and for all.

    Off topic perhaps, but a segue for a misunderstanding of similar scale and heartache. Regarding Collapse, Zephyr (24) lays down the cause (baby-boomers), Look Out Below (33) lays down the reaction/solution. I think these perspectives are important; important because the truths they contain are compelling. I disagree completely. Boomers are at the center of this death dance; complicit yes, but not alone by far.

    It’s sad to witness the relentless subversion of concepts. “Saving” often spun as “hoarding” to give it that derogatory inflection. Can we say the same for “entitlements?” I read, read, and read again about retirements being stolen form the people that paid into them all their working lives. They call it entitlements to give it an almost pious flavor. And Social Security funding, taken out of your check automatically, it is one of the biggest cons ever perpetrated. Funding goes directly into the general fund and is spent; embezzled would be more accurate. Had that money been put into silver or gold and actually saved, the funding problem would not exist. The baby-boomers were handed this scam, this Trojan Horse, after it was completely built. They pay in, but will never pull out, being the last layer of an inverted pyramid. I guess the contestants and directors of a Ponzi scheme bare responsibility; but blaming only the losers?

    Rich’s response (32) is good start to understanding the real cause. If you back up far enough, you’re back to Skep’s FDR comments; and you could go back further. But if you can’t comprehend the economic and ideological erosion over decades, you are susceptible to confusing symptom with cause. You have no mental force-field to repel the constant onslaught of platitudes aimed directly at the frontal lobe.

    Zephyr’s comments are important to me because, at a glance, they seem plausible. To reiterate, I think this erroneous concept has legs. Look Out Below’s comments are important to me because, quite frankly, the lynch mob has power. A thought comes to mind - I wonder if I would have the composure to say, “forgive them, they know not what they do.”

  89. Sapiens February 4, 2007 10:33 am

    What to do, what to do?

    The first question you must ask is this: Are you willing to die for the betterment of mankind?

    If the answer is yes, as it should, then begin to take care of knowing yourself so you can accomplish the task.

    One man alone can’t do it, but a union of dedicated men certainly can.


  90. the stranger February 4, 2007 10:34 am

    Michael and I trade info sometimes in emails, and the comments below are mine from one such exchange. Prechter has been brought up again on this thread, so I though someone might find something useful in these thoughts; my take after reading the EWI Theorist from December 2006.
    — —

    Understanding Prechter is knowing that he is right; and wrong. I think he is right about collapse, but he will never understand it. He believes its cause is psychology; where as I believe changes in psychology are just a measurable effect.

    In the December EWI Theorist, Prechter is using a chart illustrating how the DJIA is actually crashing, when measured in real money – gold, rather than Dollars. Prechter is using this chart to show that his call for a collapse was in fact right.

    And he is dead-on correct to do so, but this flies in the face of his eternal call for gold to collapse. If gold had collapsed, how could he be correct, much less demonstrate it?

    Next, and disregarding the last paragraph, Prechter demonstrates how the DJIA and NASDAQ are falling against the CRB Commodities Index. Again, the stock crash is obvious, and the waves are fairly accurate I believe, because the chart spans decades.

    In the case of the excellent CRB comparison, using accurate but incomplete information, is a potential disservice to the reader. The reader gets a lesson in the usefulness of the CRB, but is not informed that it has radically changed.

    As Adam Hamilton demonstrates, in the old index all component commodities were equally weighted and geometrically averaged. But the 5.9% to 23.0% increase in oil weighting and the change to arithmetic averaging, removing excessive smoothing, is no less than massive.

    On page five we are treated to a chart titled, “Peak-oil or Peak-price.” The US Strategic Reserve is slated to be doubled as demand for oil rises as discovery of oil falls. This as the dollar loses value in a hundred year trend. How long will it take for Prechter to be wrong on this call? Weeks I expect.

    On page six, he tries to use the latest crude and gasoline prices, in a Dow Theory Conformation mode without mentioning well published index changes here as well. Further Prechter points to the collapsing indexes of Qatar & Saudi Arabia in 2006. I read it twice and have no idea what he thought this meant. Did he think that the King of commodities is headed for a bear market? I think he did, but earlier commodities were his ally.

    He continues with charts for gold and oil, correctly demonstrating that most of the price increase for oil is nominal; that is, monetary inflation induced. Personally, I agree completely with this view and expect the supply-demand aspect to kick in soon and give us real all time highs for crude. To Prechter, books on Peak-oil reflect investor psychology driven by the price of oil. The concept of someday not producing as mush as the day before is dismissed out-of-hand. To recap - peak for oil wells, peak for Texas, peak-oil in general; oils wells are discovered, tapped, pumped, then abandoned. Simple as it gets. Technology can’t change those fundamentals.

    I’m expecting a collapse and by definition that is deflating. I’m still grasping for a model. But Prechter seems to think the dollar will be in tack when it’s over; with bonds and FRNs high in value due to scarcity. I don’t know that that has to happen; it is a con game. Antal Fekete makes a convincing argument for that case as well. Inflation is massive now, but not hyper-inflationary yet. I’m still thinking gold and silver will fall in price, but only after they have adjusted for decades of manipulation.

    I think the important thing is making the right moves on our way to collapse, as things become increasingly volatile. To us it’s slow, we’re watching it. But we know we will have to be solid as hell by the time it actually hits.

  91. Sapiens February 4, 2007 10:45 am

    the stranger Says:
    February 4th, 2007 at 10:34 am

    “To us it’s slow, we’re watching it.”

    Prechter is right, the problem is that he does not undertand the timing of it. The crash will come only where the preassure of the physical elements of it are not able to be diverted with papery obfuscation.

    There is a point where the common man needs to eat before servicing his debts.


  92. kia February 4, 2007 10:51 am


    Welcome to the Globalized Company Store!


    our current circumstance reminds me of sitting on my board between sets, and watching the huge slope of the largest wave i’ve ever seen building. i can see it out there, i know that i can’t paddle out of it’s way, but i don’t know if i have the necessary cojones to ride it with style. patience is the master sport.


    Glad you got over your reticence to post, don’t sweat the writing skills, your ideas are worthy of expression.


    Could you expand on the “right things”?


  93. kia February 4, 2007 10:54 am

    Dear All,

    Go here and load up God Bless America


    Turn up the music loud and dance.


  94. muleskinner February 4, 2007 11:03 am

    Headline: Employee microchip tracking bill discussed

    A business in Ohio required some employees to be microchipped.

    Even some newborns are being microchipped.

    Isn’t monitoring your activities more or less slavery?

    Who said it here awhile back? I can’t remember, I have CRS disease.

    “When freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will be free.”

    Outlaws with toothbrush mustaches, me thinks.

    That skillumati site is thought crime.

    “Arbeit Macht Frei”

    Pass the sodium flouride please.

    I spent over two hours today removing a spyware and two viruses. The dirty, filthy, no good swine.

    ‘Vie have our vays’

    Yeah, and microchipping is one of them.

  95. muleskinner February 4, 2007 11:06 am


  96. kia February 4, 2007 11:18 am


    Thanks for the prison link. It is stunning to think about the astronomical waste of money incarcerating non-violent drug offenders

    keep it up,


  97. bp February 4, 2007 12:19 pm

    Sapiens, stranger - good to have you back in the game - darn ante just keeps getting bumped higher

    kia, yeah, I watched a couple surfing movies awhile back - North Shore during a storm surge…some die, some ride the wave, some don’t try - I don’t think we will have much of a choice whether to try or not, hehe - may we all be able to ride the coming storm wave — that McMurtry song rocks, heh — if it weren’t for music I figure I’d go nuts, er…and no, I haven’t

  98. muleskinner February 4, 2007 12:23 pm

    25 crisp silver certificates only 289.99, with shipping and handling, it comes to 318 USD.

    Silver certificates are no longer redeemable for silver coin or bullion, so somebody is going to get the short end of the stick.

  99. muleskinner February 4, 2007 12:28 pm

    Oh,I was wrong, it’s only 289.98 with 12.99 in shipping and handling. So, it’s a bargain afterall.

    I’d go to ebay and buy them, they cost much less. It only costs about two dollars to buy one dollar over there. Not bad.

  100. kia February 4, 2007 12:49 pm


    how do you know? I mean how can you really know? How can you really be sure?

    i can’t

  101. the stranger February 4, 2007 12:50 pm

    “right things”…with Prechter?

  102. the stranger February 4, 2007 1:00 pm

    muleskinner; Liberty Dollar might be a better choice for silver receipts.
    Yeah, that’s about what I think sapiens. Thanks bp, hard to keep up - get pulled away… yes, patience weedhoppers, patience. Rich, “reset” analogy is a good way to put it. The elite can’t stop it(step out of the way maybe) it’s built in. It’s just that there are more than one TPTB. It’s the most dangerous this time around.

  103. kia February 4, 2007 1:00 pm

    “I think the important thing is making the right moves on our way to collapse, as things become increasingly volatile”


    Excuse me, right moves,

  104. kia February 4, 2007 1:27 pm
  105. the stranger February 4, 2007 1:37 pm

    ???Right moves, right moves…
    In a major collapse, first thing you’ll need is luck; but chance favors the prepared mind.

    Well, the system has impoverished a great number of people, through inflation among other things. But we’re reaching the “reset” point. Houses don’t double in a year or two normally; for example. But property inflates unevenly in value; some could have cashed in and relocated; to be in a better spot or out of debt. If you risked 30k and bought mining stocks in 2001, you may be out of debt now. I have friends with enough in their 401Ks to pay off all their debt. I think that would be a right move; but I can’t prove it to them and I could be wrong. Try to understand this surreal moment in history (albeit years) and use it to your advantage. The right moves vary for each person. But it’s all a gamble – life’s a gamble.

    I consider it Luck to even be aware of (to some degree) what is happening; in spite of the amount of work it requires. And I think it is flat out wrong that the system is cheating people. A medical doctor doing great things in the community may have no concept of these things we ponder. So he could lose, and he shouldn’t. But, I try to figure out what the right moves are anyway, because that’s my job – provide and protect my family; and maybe because my mind is always looking for a solution to this predicament.

  106. kia February 4, 2007 1:42 pm


    let’s hope your mind finds one.


  107. the stranger February 4, 2007 1:52 pm

    The right moves vary… stored food, colloidal silver, plan B, C, D and E.  Hell, I would have been smarter to ignore your question. Great article Kia, it’s worth clicking over just to see the Campbell’s Iraq War Soup pic. Bp, that’s where I’ve been; article after article, blog after blog on the Iran build up. Here is a well thought out chain of events to ponder at LATOC.

  108. liz February 4, 2007 3:59 pm

    I read several replies and found one who had it right. #39.It is a fixed game.it is just the terratory that gets bigger as consolidation grows, culimating in the Forth Reich, nearly there folks. Always played with the same old rule of ‘Divide and Conquer’,the Us and Them’s keep growing,..One generation reproaching another,one religion against another(this time Christian against Muslim),anthing to keep our eyes off the real crime, the relentless dumbing down of the sheeple so they don’t know how or are easily cowered into non resistance to the last and final major play, which is the coming Global Depression were the Super Oligarcy families and Multinationals will clean up for the usual ‘pennies on the dollar’.
    The rich think that the trouble with the poor is that they have too much money,really!
    We WILL be micochiped by the insanely greedy Illuminazi’s who brought us global warming which will kill off the unwanted straving billions and keep the rest of us in fear of a lifetime of labour, enforced or otherwise in our crumbling cities or their prison camps.

  109. muleskinner February 4, 2007 4:19 pm

    Alien Technology

    It don’t (doesn’t) look good.

  110. muleskinner February 4, 2007 4:20 pm
  111. bp February 4, 2007 4:31 pm

    stranger #107, the info is coming so fast it’s hard to digest…don’t forget, you can’t go swimming for an hour after eating, hehe

  112. muleskinner February 4, 2007 5:43 pm
  113. the stranger February 4, 2007 5:45 pm

    …crack me up bp, but I already got gills.

  114. the stranger February 4, 2007 5:48 pm

    muleskinner, that’s an interesting link…

  115. First Boomer February 4, 2007 6:08 pm

    Wake up fellow Boomers! If you are over 50 and fat…get off your padded behind and walk, run, jog, climb out of your sedentary lifestyle. Or, you can continue as you have and die when the drug stores close down and your insulin, htn meds, etc. are gone. In the meantime (while working off your second self) get your finances fixed! Sell the big car and the big house and move to the country. Plant a garden, get out of debt, store some food and gold. The life you save will be your own and those you love!

  116. muleskinner February 4, 2007 6:14 pm
  117. Robert Johns February 4, 2007 6:25 pm

    The paper available by clicking on the link below is well wothwhile reading. A suggestion about competing currencies initially proposed by Hayek is discussed towards the end of the paper. I found the aticle refreshingly frank and upfront. One can find asignoficant number of examples illustrating that fiat currencies are essentally unstable money.

    Federal Reserve Insider Shares Crucial Insights About Interpreting Monetary Policy
    Dr. Jerry Jordan, former President & CEO
    Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, Tel (216) 410-8771
    Email: jerryj@fraserinstitute.ca

    Click here for the complete publication.

    Release Date: May 31, 2005

    Vancouver, BC - Jerry L. Jordan, a Senior Fellow at The Fraser Institute, and former president and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, has provided valuable new information about the role of money in the modern economy. In a new monograph, Money and Monetary Policy for the 21st Century, Jordan provides for the first time in print a clear understanding of how the quality and quantity of money change and are changed by economic developments.

    For Fed watchers, Jordan’s paper provides a unique source of understanding about the objectives of monetary policy and how the Fed reacts to variations in economic conditions. His explanation of Monetary Policy Neutrality provides a valuable barometer against which the activities of the Fed can be judged to know whether the policy being set is expansionary, neutral or contractionary.

    Jordan’s monograph also has broader insights about monetary policy and what the Fed and the Bank of Canada can and cannot do. Noting that while modern economies cannot function without financial stability and the basic requirement of a stable currency, this is insufficient to ensure an economy’s success. Central banks’ control over inflation will only ensure economic success if there is a foundation of enforceable property rights, generally accepted accounting principles and sound financial institutions.

    Speaking to the issue of how central banks can keep interest rates low, Jordan pointed out, “There is only one monetary policy that can produce low interest rates: a policy of stable money. Once people start to expect the value of money to erode, observed interest rates can also be expected to rise. Any attempts to resist these natural market dynamics artificially will only make matters worse.”

    “The important point is that frequent changes in the prices of things and changes in market interest rates are normal occurrences in a market economy and an understanding of how and why they are changing is important to both policy-makers and the rest of us,” he stated.

    Jordan notes that money has evolved over the past few centuries and that the current trend to using electronic credits and debits as the dominant payment mode has created the potential for private money to compete with government-issued currencies. He notes that the competition between private and government monies around the world may help produce stable and uniform currencies.


  118. Robert Johns February 4, 2007 6:45 pm

    Posted as food for thought

    by Bill A. Frezza

    Wireless Computing Associates


  119. Robert Johns February 4, 2007 6:57 pm

    Here are a few more articles which may be of interest- what do you guys think?

    by Bert Ely

    Ely & Company

    by George Selgin

    University of Georgia


    by Richard Rahn



  120. Robert Johns February 4, 2007 7:11 pm

    Re post 117 - the “significant examples” referred are not found in the article - they refer to those events that came to my mind as i read it.

  121. Robert Johns February 4, 2007 7:42 pm

    Just in case some of you think that the US has sound financial institutions what do say about the fact that JP Morgan and Ciigroup have some 100 trillion dollars of derivatives and do you think Fanny Mae and Fanny Mac are sound financial institutions? Total worldwide derivates is about 400 trillion USD.The annual total value of all goods and services produced in the USA (GDP)is about 11 trillion- make hay while the sun shines

  122. michael February 4, 2007 8:56 pm

    well, there is no certainty to even the very next second.

    But, there is, “always”, expectation as to the next second.

    So, where do we go from here? the very next second of expectation? do you see what i mean?

    we forget, that in the course of human events, there are surprises and causes linked together, causes orchestrated to a large degree to have an outcome for some selfish benefit to those doing the Grand Orchestration, and surprises totally unforseen (relative to expectations).

    It is the awareness of the possibility (actually probability) of surprises, that even the Grand Orchestrations must bow to, that in many efforts is the very restraint for a rash change attempt. So, within the change movements put in place is the actual “seeds” of failure, because it is literally impossible to measure, and more to the point, control human individual and collective behavior. In a free society, such measure and control is impossible totally;only a sampling is actually possible, for many reasons.

    Ok then, what now for the systems and programs built in the world to feed the need by a relative few for power and control?

    Inadvertently, a very large intellectual population exists with the general population, unlike former times, that is very hard to pinpoint (except some obvious professions/scientific communities)and this population, at this very moment, has a parallel program converging on the would be CFR’s of the world. It is not centralized, and the participants are largely unknown, but they are there…..THIS is the surprise, among other key factors, that will allow the “good” to win out in this current situation.


  123. Robert Sczech February 4, 2007 9:22 pm

    The obsession with financial affairs (money, debt, savings, gold, taxes, mortgages etc) makes us all blind for one fundamental fact. All western societies live a life which can not be sustained in the long term. This has nothing to do with boomers, retirement, generation X or social security etc. It has much to do with the exhaustion of natural resources on which our life quality depends. The decline of US oil production since 1970 is the ultimate explanation for the war in Iraq, the weak Dollar, the loss of manufacturing jobs which in turn cause a pension crisis. The retirement of boomers is not the problem. It is only a symptom of a much more fundamental problem. The problem we are facing is the collapse of industrial civilization due to resource exhaustion. The retirement crisis of the boomers is in comparison a fake problem. People will continue to work until they die. Any other solution is an illusion designed only to feed the parasites on Wall Street.

  124. Makia February 5, 2007 6:18 am

    Jesus! I constantly am taken aback at the quality of minds and observations that come here! I don’t agree with everyone, or know enough to disagree with some, but i have seen very few here who not given an _honest_ look at life. How has our civilization remained so ignorant in the presence of these thoughful, considered, and wonderful people? People who know that you can’t receive without giving and that balance is not desireable, but inevitable. We don’t know what the future holds, but take our individual responsibilities with care.

    Enjoy everybody

  125. Makia February 5, 2007 6:20 am

    To repeat a comment made in the previous thread:

    be thankful, it is the lamp that lights the darkness - you can see clearly once your eyes adjust. . .

  126. larry February 5, 2007 6:29 am

    i studied medicine..as such,i clearly did not study what the majority of you did…things like economics and buisness ect…however,i come back to this thread frequently and continue to learn a tremendous amount…perhaps some things that i do know can be applied from medical studies to shed light on why politicians and economists are so capable of such manipulated premeditated destructive policy actions….basically,i see no fundemental diagnostic scheme in any policy approaches……….in health care when a patient presents you need to progress from identifying the acute issues to the not obvious chronic issues….then once things are stabilized…if you practice as i do…you try to have the person embrase life strategies that promote health and discourage pre-mature preventable degenerative changes….by identifying all the environmental,lifestyle,family histories,ect…an honest work up results and a treatment plan can be developed….the patient may or may not wish to comply or may partially comply….but the key is this…the risks are assessed and solutions are pursued to enhance the wellness of that individual…also,bluntlty stated,if the recommendations are ignored, i explain the deleterious consequences that can and probably will unfold or heighten in probability of occuring…i choose this approach even though that truth and reality offends some folks and they choose an other provider who will be smiling nice and sell them pills and ignore the long term health of the individual….so, what i see in the government, is the refusal to workup the case so to speak…since all the facts that are dispensed are lies and distortions and that the condition of the economy is gravely chronically ill and premorbid,well….emergency innervention is indicated to allow for full recovery…the rulers of this lie and scam can never allow an honest workup and evaluation of the ailing patient that their policies both by design and default created…..the patient is basically being fed (fed pills) to keep the economic heart ticking 4 hours per dose…cardiac arrest is imminent and no one gets rewarded for making the diagnosis that an emergency quadruple bypass is immediately indicated…that would indicate faulty preventitive measures in managing this important patient…….also, following will be years of physical therapy and hopefully the patient will survive long enough to educate it’s children of how to prevent this avoidable situation…but,they do as most doctors do…blame it on some other exogenous event or mysterious invisible genetic predisposition…lie….it is all preventible… except for the fear and greed that is the precursor to it all

  127. bp February 5, 2007 6:51 am

    michael #123, ahhh….the atmosphere is heavy with expectation, we can feel it like the impending storm to come, this “surprise” you speak of seems like a catalyst that will drop the suspended precipitate in a flash — I tend to agree with you…but who knows for sure what the future holds - any guessing is based on “what is” and figuring probabilities (usually a linear proposition that), not “what will be” - but some can see “what is” clearer, and some know some knowns others don’t - those darn orchestrators seem to be holding some cards in reserve they haven’t played yet - but as you say…even they do not have absolute control - to be it is like reaching a bifurcation point, we either ratchet up to a higher level of functioning, or we descend to a lower level - so what do you think this “parallel program” is???…and don’t go all Indigo Children on me, heh

    #124 Robert Sczech, hm, I agree that the retirement of boomers is not the problem, but I’m not so sure scarcity is either - my guess is the problem goes deeper, maybe michael #123 has something to say about that maybe a whole new frame of reference is the “surprise” he alludes to, heh

  128. muleskinner February 5, 2007 7:21 am

    This may be pertinent to comment #123

    “In my first attempts to popularize Dr. Leary’s work, I called these tendencies “neophilia” (creative) and “neophobia.”(conformist) I have more recently decided that infophilia and infophobia have more generality and describe the associated habits more broadly. The pure infophobe (represented not too badly by most “respectable” law-abiding citizens anywhere) obsessively avoids exotic foods, exotic ideas, exotic clothing, exotic people, “dern foreigners,” new technology, innovative art or music, tabu subjects, originality, creativity etc. Sen. Exon, Sen. Gramm, most of Congress, Theodore Roszack and Unibomber represent various styles of compulsive infophobic imprints. The pure infophile remains a relatively rare person at this primitive stage of evolution. The infophile seeks out the new and exotic in food, ideas, clothing, technology, art — everywhere. Picasso, Joyce, Niels Bohr, Bucky Fuller and all the murdered heretics and innovators of history represent extreme infophiliac imprints.”

    Non-Local Mind

    Bell’s Theorem demonstrated a connection-or-correlation between systems that are not causally related. That is, it entirely contradicts an assumption which governed science from Newton to Einstein–the assumption that all scientific laws must express a kind of “billiard-ball” model of the world, in which every moving ball is only influenced by the balls with which it collides. Bell’s math demonstrated that some sort of non-local “field” or perhaps an “implicate order” controlled the balls even if they had no mechanical connection with each other.

    Nick Herbert liked to call this non-local relationship “the Cosmic Glue.”

    Saul Paul Sirag, another physicist, showed me a paper by Dr. E.H. Walker, “The Compleat Quantum Anthropologist,” which argued that mind, like quantum systems, functions non-locally. This made sense to me because all systems that divide mind from matter lead to intractable paradoxes. It also made sense because it gave me, for the first time, a model that could explain some of my more “cosmic” LSD experiences. Dr. Walker’s paper started me thinking in terms of a Local Self, inside space-time, and a Non-Local Self, outside space-time. This may have been what the Zen Master, Sensaki, meant when he spoke of Little Mind and Big Mind. Such a model not only accounted for LSD voyages but it also made a good container for all the confusing phenomena which parapsychologists put into separate bags and call ESP, precognition, out of body experience, synchronicity–all the strange “psychic” events that have dogged me all my life (which I can no longer attribute to the Atheist’s God, Mr. Random Chance).

    In terms of Walker’s interpretation of Bell’s Theorem, all of these non-Newtonian aberrations merely represent sudden information flow from Non-Local Mind to Local Mind.

    Robert Anton Wilson, Cosmic Trigger II, 1991

  129. Makia February 5, 2007 7:58 am

    Skinner, you and i together would throw a hell of a party.


  130. Makia February 5, 2007 8:02 am

    I don’t know what i meant by that, i just want to drink some of your beer. I really don’t think its good to encourage others to use drugs, especially speaking of powerful drugs for “recreational” purposes. Not that i’m opposed to their use. . . but the party mentality has damaged a lot of people in recent decades. ‘Course so has ignorance of economic functions by the masses, but i digress. Like i said, i just was trying to think of a clever way to get some of your beer.

  131. Sapiens February 5, 2007 8:07 am

    well, there is no certainty to even the very next second.

    But, there is, “always”, expectation as to the next second.

    So, where do we go from here? the very next second of expectation?




  132. bp February 5, 2007 8:29 am

    #129, muleskinner - that about says it all, hehe

  133. muleskinner February 5, 2007 8:33 am

    That was not my intent or inference with the post. I will digress. It has been postulated that the Salem ‘witches’ were eating rye bread that had traces of ergot in the bread. Ergot is rye rust that is the natural substance used for the LSD.

    Siegfried Gottlieb, Frank Olson, and MK Ultra stuff, you know. I’ll stop there.

    The discussion of oils has been covered extensively.

    I’ll switch to water.

    Water will help stop the McNosis. Drink more water.

  134. Makia February 5, 2007 8:39 am

    First, thanks to all the new contributors or those that have contributed more on this thread than on past threads. Tons of great stuff here from lots of thoughtful people, and i’m enjoying all of it. Keep in touch folks! Just my two cents.

    Robert #124:

    All western societies live a life which can not be sustained in the long term. This has nothing to do with boomers, retirement, generation X or social security etc. It has much to do with the exhaustion of natural resources on which our life quality depends.

    (First, i agree with everything else that was said in #124, but:)

    One of my biggest problems with “modern” man or “modern” civilization is this myth (myths are very deep and powerful, most of the time operating well below the radar) that “quality of life” has something to do with resource consumption, or use.

    To me, the salient point is when someone says, “there’s more to life than money.” Or, “money doesn’t buy happiness.”

    Observe the aboriginals of Australia, or the Native Americans pre-colonial (and post-their-violent-ancestors). The quality of life, family, society, and spitituality that they enjoy has _nothing_ to do with consumption of resources. It has only to do with their respect for life, human and otherwise. They are clean people, but they don’t need plumbing, sewage, or chemical factories to live that way. And they are clean because of an innate understanding of life. Those people literally have everything without leaving a single lasting footprint on the earth.

    In my mind, the quality of life of these earth-based societies is lightyears beyond a man who has plumbing and a car and a cellphone - but can’t put them down for even a day, or a week. Furthermore, many of those societies made CONSIOUS DECISIONS not to pursue technology. Modern man looks at these indigenous cultures as primitive. But they can only be considered this by a man who ties the consumption of resources with quality of life.

    There is a balance to be struck. Modern technology will not just go away over night. It may be forced to subside over the next couple of centuries, but what is here is here. There is a balance to be struck, but that balance is FAR from where we are.

    If you can’t let go of modern life for a week, either the physical niceties or the mental self-congratulation, you are a slave. Keep in mind that i do not criticize what i haven’t done myself. But in my skills is the awareness that i can be independant and choose to “play the game.” If you don’t beleive me you can pay me to go out into the forest sometime and show you what is available to man without anything more than a good knife. Along the way i’ll tell you the stories of how a civilization can prosper without anything more than a couple more knives.

    We need to re-define within ourselves what “quality of life,” really means. If the industrial age is getting closer to an epitome of human development, then i’d consider our race as a destructive parasite. But i know the stories of beings within human bodies who strived for something altogether different: spiritual peace and development. This led to emotional, mental, and physical development. Perhaps obviously, this is _my_ definition of “quality of life.” To that end, Americans, and all modern societies are flushing themselves down the sewage system of the spiritual universe.

  135. Makia February 5, 2007 8:46 am

    p.s. sorry for ruining your point muleskinner, but nonetheless i thought what was being said in your #129 was an excellent analysis about this area of psychology/sociology. My immaturity made it hard to refrain from a party-dude comment.

    p.p.s. i’m still thinking about your beer

  136. Makia February 5, 2007 9:14 am

    Let me add this to #135 for those who haven’t read my past posts:

    Within spiritual development of a person or a society comes the need to face violence. Reaching higher levels sometimes requires what most would call violence. There are, indeed, violent people in the world. Ignoring this, or downplaying likely results in peril for you, or your loved ones. Strive to be a master of yourself, be patient with others. And be flexible, but don’t be a pushover. A human should be a strong bamboo shoot, not a blade of grass. Bamboo makes a strong house, grass just gets eaten up.

  137. kia February 5, 2007 9:41 am

    Stranger (#108),

    I have read the material on the Sunburn missiles before. If they are true, then how can the US Navy be heading into anything but a Sea of Fire? I guess they are going to learn why they call it the Red Sea. Thanks for the link.


  138. muleskinner February 5, 2007 9:48 am

    The real McNosis: Prescription medications are advertised on television like cigarettes were before cigarette commercials were banned.

    Is this why there are so many prescription medications advertised on the idiot box?

    Psychological Warfare Drugs

    (Court Records, FOIA Documents, General Accounting Office investigations)

    The BZ experiments were conducted on soldiers at Edgewood Arsenal for 16 years. Many of the “victims” claim that the drug permanently affected their lives in a negative way. It so disorientated one paratrooper that he was found taking a shower in his uniform and smoking a cigar. BZ was eventually put in hand grenades and a 750 pound cluster bomb. Other configurations were made for mortars, artillery and missiles. The bomb was tested in Vietnam and CIA documents indicate it was prepared for use by the U.S. in the event of large-scale civilian uprisings.

    In Vacaville, psychosurgery has long been a policy. In one set of cases, experimental psychosurgery was conducted on three inmates, a black, a Chicano and a white person. This involved the procedure of pushing electrodes deep into the brain in order to determine the position of defective brain cells, and then shooting enough voltage into the suspected area to kill the defective cells. One prisoner, who appeared to be improving after surgery, was released on parole, but ended up back in prison. The second inmate became violent and there is no information on the third inmate.

    Vacaville also administered a “terror drug”, Anectine, as a way of “suppressing hazardous behavior”. In small doses, Anectine serves as a muscle relaxant; in huge does, it produces prolonged seizure of the respiratory system and a sensation “worse than dying”. The drug goes to work within 30 to 40 seconds by paralyzing the small muscles of the fingers, toes, and eyes, and then moves into the the intercostal muscles and the diaphragm. The heart rate subsides to 60 beats per minute, respiratory arrest sets in and the patient remains completely conscious throughout the ordeal, which lasts two to five minutes. The experiments were also used at Atascadero.

    Several mind altering drugs were originally developed for non-psychoactive purposes. Some of these drugs are Phenothiazine and Thorzine. The side effects of these drugs can be a living hell. The impact includes the feeling of drowsiness, disorientation, shakiness, dry mouth, blurred vision and an inability to concentrate. Drugs like Prolixin are described by users as “sheer torture” and “becoming a zombie”.

    The Veterans Administration Hospital has been shown by the General Accounting Office to apply heavy dosages of psychotherapeutic drugs. One patient was taking eight different drugs, three antipsychotic, two antianxiety, one antidepressant, one sedative and one anti-Parkinson. Three of these drugs were being given in dosages equal to the maximum recommended.

    Another patient was taking seven different drugs. One report tells of a patient who refused to take the drug. “I told them I don’t want the drug to start with, they grabbed me and strapped me down and gave me a forced intramuscular shot of Prolixin. They gave me Artane to counteract the Prolixin and they gave me Sinequan, which is a kind of tranquilizer to make me calm down, which over calmed me, so rather than letting up on the medication, they then gave me Ritalin to pep me up.”

    Prolixin lasts for two weeks. One patient describes how the drug does not calm or sedate nerves, but instead attacks from so deep inside you, you cannot locate the source of the pain. “The drugs turn your nerves in upon yourself. Against your will, your resistance, your resolve, are directed at your own tissues, your own muscles, reflexes, etc..” The patient continues, “The pain grinds into your fiber, your vision is so blurred you cannot read. You ache with restlessness, so that you feel you have to walk, to pace. And then as soon as you start pacing, the opposite occurs to you, you must sit and rest. Back and forth, up and down, you go in pain you cannot locate. In such wretched anxiety you are overwhelmed because you cannot get relief even in breathing.”

    Doctor Jose Delgado: “Man does not have the right to develop his own mind.”

    (Congressional Record, New York Times)

    “We need a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the given norm can be surgically mutilated.

    “The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks historical perspective.

    “Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electric stimulation of the brain.”

    These were the remarks of Dr. Jose Delgado as they appeared in the February 24, 1974 edition of the Congressional Record, No. 262E, Vol. 118.

    Despite Dr. Delgado’s outlandish statements before Congress, his work was financed by grants from the Office of Naval Research, the Air Force Aero-Medical Research Laboratory, and the Public Health Foundation of Boston.

    Dr. Delgado was a pioneer of the technology of Electrical Stimulation of the Brain (ESB). The New York Times ran an article on May 17, 1965 entitled Matador With a Radio Stops Wild Bull. The story details Dr. Delgado’s experiments at Yale University School of Medicine and work in the field at Cordova, Spain. The New York Times stated:

    “Afternoon sunlight poured over the high wooden barriers into the ring, as the brave bull bore down on the unarmed matador, a scientist who had never faced fighting bull. But the charging animal’s horn never reached the man behind the heavy red cape. Moments before that could happen, Dr. Delgado pressed a button on a small radio transmitter in his hand and the bull braked to a halt. Then he pressed another button on the transmitter, and the bull obediently turned to the right and trotted away. The bull was obeying commands in his brain that were being called forth by electrical stimulation by the radio signals to certain regions in which fine wires had been painlessly planted the day before.”

    According to Dr. Delgado, experiments of this type have also been performed on humans. While giving a lecture on the Brain in 1965, Dr. Delgado said, “Science has developed a new methodology for the study and control of cerebral function in animals and humans.”

  139. Makia February 5, 2007 10:03 am

    If they are true, then how can the US Navy be heading into anything but a Sea of Fire?

    When did they stop teaching Sun Tzu at the military academy? I’m sure it had something to do with somebody thinking that the great technolgy made being a person obsolete (there they go again).

    Its quite humorous how we can place the MinuteMen on such a pedestal for innovative techniques, passion, and basic guerilla warfare to defeat the greatest army in the world - then get all our technology tossed out of Vietnam by a bunch of guys with pijamas and passion - then make the same fucking underestimation again in Iraq.

    Well, its humorous if you can overlook the devestation, corruption, and waste of life and materials.

    My advice, pick up the latest edition of “The Art of War.”

  140. Makia February 5, 2007 10:04 am

    (get it? the latest edition? . . . i kill me sometimes)

  141. kia February 5, 2007 10:43 am

    Muleskinner (#134),

    Water invented life to Transport Itself Around - Tom Robbins

  142. Makia February 5, 2007 11:16 am

    “Water invented life to Transport Itself Around.”

    love it

  143. Makia February 5, 2007 11:28 am

    I think of “life” and water as interchangeable. To examine water is to realize that it is much more than simply “an amazing substance.”

    To all: Drink Lots of Water

    Y’know, i’ve read that some “doctors” advise _against_ drinking “too much water?” Even to say that “8 cups a day is too much?” Holy fucking shit. When i saw that it really strengthened my resolve against the allopathic paradigm and where it leads the mind. Freaking idiots some people are.

  144. kia February 5, 2007 11:37 am


    what is the code you use to produce the boxes?

  145. kia February 5, 2007 11:42 am
  146. Makia February 5, 2007 12:06 pm

    kia, i just gandered that.

    I don’t even know what to say. . .

    Do we anticipate an eventual revolution or mass slavery? The PTB are shoving thier power and influence right in our GD faces. “We’re gonna keep leadin’ all y’all down the path of servitude and those of you that know can’t do a thing about it.”

  147. Makia February 5, 2007 12:34 pm

    kia, what i once wondered, i pass along:

    to block quote:

    i’m hoping i can explain,

    at the beginning of the quote you type “” (if i type it, the reader will do it and you won’t be able to see the code)

    at the end of the quote, its “”

    so the command is “blockquote” and at the end you put a fore-slash in front “/blockquote”

    you encapsulate the command with the “” so the reader does the command instead of printing the command in the post

  148. Makia February 5, 2007 12:38 pm

    ahhhh! the reader doesn’t print the symbol!

    the symbols are the greater-than and less-than signs.

    so its

    “less-than symbol” “blockquote” “greater-than symbol”

    at the beginning of the quote, and

    “less-than symbol” “/blockquote” “greater-than symbol”

    notice the fore-slash before “blockquote” in the ending command

    . . . i should have given you the link like sapiens did for me but it’d take me a while to find it. there’s more commands i’m sure to fancy the posts up. i’m mostly no-frills but i do like those blockquotes sometimes.

    enjoy everyone!

  149. kia February 5, 2007 12:50 pm

    thanks, i’ll take that link when you have it,
    i’d like to clean up my posts if i can.

  150. bp February 5, 2007 1:04 pm

    ahhhh! the reader doesn’t print the symbol!

  151. bp February 5, 2007 1:04 pm

    thanks makia-sensi, hehe

  152. muleskinner February 5, 2007 1:06 pm

    tutorial html

    line through text

    I try not to make it too McNotic.

  153. ostrich February 5, 2007 1:13 pm

    Makia #144 - “We’re gonna keep leadin’ all y’all down the path of servitude and those of you that know can’t do a thing about it.”
    At this moment in time I think the sheeple will be lead down any path the talking heads take them.
    If you recall on one of the earlier threads when we were first discussing Ron Paul I said LONG LIVE THE TOWNHALL.
    I am sure you are aware of and probably have read James howard Kunstler, read todays dissertation
    North America really has to start a grass roots movement and as Kunstler says get off your ass and get started. I believe many of the people posting here are the type of humans that can begin our own little “counter revolution” or at least start preparing some of the sheeple about the possible outcomes to be played out in the near future.
    I’ll get off the soap box now.
    I came accross something I had not seen in 20+ years and I was wondering what some of the bloggers thought about Technocracy.
    “counter revolution” may be a shitty term, but you get the drift.

  154. Makia February 5, 2007 2:00 pm

    Ostrich, i’m not afraid of death, but i am afraid of a waste of life. Using terms like “revolution”, i just don’t want to draw attention. I know this: i have been fucking sick of the hypocricy of the leadership (and the masses) and the ignorance of the masses for my entire adult life. I have tried to point people in a useful direction without upsetting people (because peeople don’t listen to people who upset them) but it is an exercise in patients. Today, i am a VERY patient person. I have learned to see things in geologic time - well, not _quite_ that big, but i don’t have a word for. . . biological time. . . i don’t know - the time that it takes species to evolve.

    To that end, i am aware that species evolve in quantum leaps, not according to a linear model.

    Someone, i think on this thread, talked about a 10 year depression that gives us time to “cool our heels and practice our fasting skills.” Something inside me tells me that that will be my time. For the present i am in the present and developing presence. Perhaps it will pay off for the benefit of the People. My intent lies in helping “the next seven generations.” But despite any cliches or bhuddist koans that might help the tempered keep their cool, the turmoil is stark to my senses - especially my heart.

    Something might have clicked yesterday when an old friend i hadn’t talked to in a while told me i needed a myspace page. . .

    Kia, what do you think about balancing this passion and humility? Anyone?

  155. Makia February 5, 2007 2:05 pm

    “exercise in patients” !!! a Freudian slip!?!

  156. Makia February 5, 2007 2:14 pm

    bp #150, i see my sense of humor is contaigous. . . like the plague.

  157. Robert Sczech February 5, 2007 3:37 pm

    Makia: regarding the definition of quality of life, I think the least we should ask for is a sufficient supply of food in order to prevent death due to starvation. There are roughly 300 million people living in the US, but the deer population in our forests is only 1 million. No way that the US can secure its food supply by hunting animals in the forests. We are condemned to eat industrial food which can be produced only with enough fossil fuel inputs.

  158. ostrich February 5, 2007 6:42 pm

    Someone had posted that if China dumped $1T on the market it would be a blip by the end of the trading day. I’m not a bond market currency guy (i have decent understanding of the basics)but sometimes you have to connect the dots. The Chineese will dump one day, when they are good and ready and it won’t be a blip it will be a tsunami on all markets they target.
    If you live in the USA, if you are bloody politician or a corporate leader I urge you to read this article by Navarro - it very succinctly connects the dots for you and the $1T of reserves may be the least of your worries because the dollar is toast anyway.

  159. the stranger February 5, 2007 6:55 pm

    Yeah Kia, bizzare; it’s getting incomprehensibly dangerous. I don’t know what make of it - and the masses yawn. Several useful articles on Brzezinski, this one’s essential.

  160. muleskinner February 5, 2007 8:41 pm

    I did defer to jtgelt’s opinion.

    There is a problem with the dollar being toast. Why would the Chinese dump a trillion dollars to make it worthless? They would be better off buying ten million houses in America for 100 thousand dollars each.

    Buy something, instead of trying to trade dollars for another fiat currency.

    If the dollar is toast, it doesn’t bode well for Canadians, either.

    The Canadian Pension Fund is heavily invested in arms manufacturers.

    Canadian workers help support the war with their pocketbooks.

  161. Robert Johns February 5, 2007 9:55 pm

    I dont think the US dollar is at risk of a serious decline now or in the intermediate term . I base this view on the fact that all fiat currencies are being significantly debased concurrently. Longer term i am more doubtful.

    What is more at risk now and in the next 12 months is a significant decline in hard asset prices especially metal commodities such as copper, aluminium,gold and silver. One thing the central banks do not want is a general perception that fiat currencies are ’suspect’ and unstable and gold and other hard assets are safer than fiat currencies. The best way to beat the fraud we have all been subject to since 1913 is to buy physical gold and silver, hold on to it even when the price goes down by 50% (unlikely but it may happen) and then buy more on weakness. If every investor had 5-10% of their portfolio in Gold and some Silver for the long term we(just ordinary folk) may just come out ok when all is said and done.

    dood luck and best wished to you all.

  162. Robert Johns February 5, 2007 9:56 pm

    I mean ” good luck” - i told you i a=m jusy a simple ordinary man

  163. Dr Jane Karlsson February 6, 2007 3:33 am

    Where is zephyr? Are you there, zephyr? Please would you be kind enough to email me at janekrlssn@yahoo.co.uk

  164. zephyr February 6, 2007 4:14 am

    Good morning, Dr. Jane…I will do that….just been working for a couple of days, plus the Super Bowl. Seems like we’ve moved past the topic but since I was referenced so much, I thought I might bring back the initial discussion.

    Look, most people tend to take things said about their group personally. I know I have. That said, boomers…chill. If you’re on this web site, chances are you’re not the type of person I was speaking of. But c’mon, by sheer numbers you people could have really made this a better world, instituted some real change. Bottom line? You didn’t……as a group. I know individuals have….but as a group…you suck….that’s all there is to it. Generally speaking, is the world better off since the Boomers were in charge? A resounding NO!

    RandallT4 68, maybe the x’ers and y’ers hate us because they hate themselves. Oh, yeah, that must be it. Please, if that’s true, it’s because you raised us so badly. Like Chris Rock says…That’s just Ig’nent! (That’s ignorant for you really white folks)

    M1953 75, has it nailed down. And someone else mentioned Greenspan and another older person. So what does that prove? Yeah, every generation has it’s bad guys. I’m sorry, simple math says the boomers had more of them. Enough….time to stop beating that horse.

    What I’m really interested in is this. Basically, I’ve kind of noticed that the sun looks much stronger than it should for early Feb. in CT. Looks more like March. Yes, might sound nutty but after many years you sort of internally start to remember what occurs or should occur during each season. Anyway, I mention this to my neighbor and he runs in his house to get me a BBC Sam Neil narrated documentary entitled Hyperspace. Jane, have you seen it?

    Anyway, I’ve read some astronomers have noticed the stars re-aligning…..or more accurately, the earth, in relation to its universe. It’s a naturally occurring phenomena that most people just don’t notice until the changes are too hard not to notice. Explains extreme weather. Add a pinch of human interference with global warming and you have…..change. Or extreme change potentially. These are cycles to a large extent, see the Mayan calendar. Maybe some of these primitive people weren’t so primitive after all. Think the govt knows something we don’t?

    Anyway, I think this is the tip of a melting iceberg. I think we’re going to start seeing change speed up and get stronger…..angrier. I’m sure as soon as Kia reads this, he’ll have a link to back it up. Anyway, like the big man says, Think about it!!


  165. muleskinner February 6, 2007 5:00 am

    So sorry to be so serious. I do laugh. Humor is great.

    I know, silence is golden. If it all falls down, what can anybody really do? Pick up the pieces and start over, I suppose.

    When one of my sons was in the first grade, I asked him one day what he says when he’s not on the playground.

    He said to me, “Dad, you know what I say when I’m not on the playground?”

    “What?,” I asked. He shouted at the top of his lungs to me, “I’m having goddamn fucking fun.”

    I lost it, tears rolled down my eyes from the hilarity.

    Laughter is the best medicine.

  166. m1953 February 6, 2007 5:01 am

    I see the Brzezinski’s Move as THE FIRST MAIN STREAM accepted crack in the hole 9/11 crime and cover-up. We have Zbig WARNING The Senate Foreign relations committee about a possible “provocation” in is opening statement. Lets Face it all of the Congress’ acquiescence to Bush-II began with 9/11. Who better than Zbignew B. to really have an inside track on 9/11?? and what do most groups of criminals, very smart criminals at that, do when they see their plans start to fail, and the “hang-mans” noose become possible destination?? Please go to http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/2007/hrg070201a.html Click on “Iraq in the Strategic Context Session 2″ and you can listen to Brzezinski’s testimony (of the Feb 01 2007 testimony) yourself. Down Load and read the text, Zbig starts testifying at 1:40 into video, Advance to 2 hours 11 minutes, He very clearly and plainly reminds the Senate Committee about the Downing Street Memo. I take this as a clear shot across the bow delivered by the old-school criminals to the new-school crowd presently in power Here is what I posted at another anti-NWO site m1953″ I really believe we are witnessing a power struggle, right before our eyes, it looks to me, just like the “mafia”, or any other large crime group, over time FACTIONS evolve and battle each other for dominance, I think we see the George-I James Baker Brzezinski Faction is openly opposing the George-II, Kissinger, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perl Faction. It does have the potential to get so dirty that one side “rats” out the other concerning 9/11. This is called the prisoner’s dilemma in mathematical game theory, eventually the most optimal choice is to be the first one to rat, “you get the best deal that way”, it happens all through history, these animals find it so easy to have their killing done for them while they stay nice and warm at home with the grand kids, OH but once they see the possibility of their crimes coming to light, oh man will they SING!!”

  167. zephyr February 6, 2007 5:35 am

    Funny you mentioned Brezinski. I actually worked with his daughter Mika. You may have seen her anchoring on CBS. Well, I worked with her about 10 years ago when she was cutting her teeth at the CBS affiliate in Hartford. She was a very strange girl. I mean, very child like and spoiled. She would say the strangest shit. Like when we would be driving to a story. We would be having a conversation when she would just blurt out, “I want some chocolate.”, and say it like she was a little girl. She would babble to herself in the midst of people in the newsroom. Funny how she moved up the ladder, though. Guess it helps to be connected.

    Here’s one. We were out covering the story of a minister who forgave the person who killed his son and then actually became friends with him in a mentoring/forgiveness sort of way. Anyway, we’re shooting the interview and she’s dying to force them into a hug for the camera. Well, it’s just not happening, or they didn’t want to do it for the camera. After shooting an awkward 30 seconds, I stopped recording and turned away. Well, she blew a gasket and accused me of “missing the money shot”. That was when I was doing vacation relief for a couple of years there. Like I said, strange girl. Must have had a bizarre upbringing. Then one day, like Paris Hilton, she told daddy, “I want to be on TV”. Voila, it happens.

  168. dof February 6, 2007 5:36 am

    Ostrich #155

    Mannnnnnnn-o-man. If the insanity wasn’t already complex enough, this succinctly addresses every element of lunacy that leaves me wondering if anyone is at the helm.

    Thanks for the link.


  169. zephyr February 6, 2007 6:32 am

    Ostrich, 155, that’s the greatest thing about the internet… people communicate like never before and therefore, the govt can’t snowjob us as they’ve always done in the past. Prior to the ‘net, the people were reliant on the media. Only recently has it become painfully obvious that the media has deluded the people over the years, an obvious tool of the govt. While we used to condemn the Soviets for their propagandist media, we in essence did the same thing.

    Now there is too much info from reliable sources on the internet which is letting people know just how much we have been lied to. It is so transparent now. The question becomes, What to do? I believe if not for such information and subsequent actions, we would already be in Iran. However, as some prior posts have indicated, it may still be just a matter of time before we hit Iran. But this too would only magnify the fact that this govt is no longer in any way serving the citizens of the US. Take into account the article Michael posted regarding individual state’s objections to a national ID card. If indeed a national ID card proceeds despite such objections, it again becomes obvious we are inching towards a police state of sorts.

    As far as China goes, it is in many ways our own Frankenstein’s monster. We have given life and sustenance to the beast. And like any nation or empire that tastes power, what is to stop China from placing us under the same heel we’ve applied so many times to other nations, with no remorse. Ah, you reap what you sow.

    And again, 2012. Why does that date hold so much significance? I read another financial article today that references 2012. Gold-Eagle editorial by Brian Bloom of Australia-”2012 seems to be the deadline by which, if we have not moved with a sense of urgency to address the macro problems, we will have passed the point of no return. There are two unrelated mathematical models which triangulate to this date”. Again, what’s up with 2012? It seems to be the point of reference to so many people.

  170. bp February 6, 2007 7:20 am

    #157 manic Makia, hehe

  171. ostrich February 6, 2007 7:23 am

    Makia - I wasn’t targeting you and I know how you feel;that is why I found it easier to bury my head for many years.
    Skinner - in know way shape or form do I exonerate Canadians but when the USA sneezes we catch a cold. On the dollar - eventually people will dump and the first out gets the best % on the dollar. The Chineese may not care if they lose a few hundred billion in dollars if they are ousting one of the parties (anti -PPT) or affecting other markets where they make trillions. I raised the issue because the article connects a few dots on the why or why not to dump.
    Food for thought

  172. m1953 February 6, 2007 7:34 am

    Zephyr, #168, Thank You for the insight re: Mika B. Scary very scary. Yes I do remember seeing her once or twice as a fill in anchor. But the story you related “Like when we would be driving to a story. We would be having a conversation when she would just blurt out, “I want some chocolate.”, and say it like she was a little girl” Scary very scary!

  173. bp February 6, 2007 7:37 am

    zephyr, #165 - hehe, I don’t want to belabor a point, but you did read The Fourth Turning, did you not? - everything is going according to plan B, no need to get upset with a prior generation - we all play our parts - subjective anger is an attachment to the object you are angry with - let it go - go ask Makia

  174. ostrich February 6, 2007 7:46 am

    bp - I heard a great quote yesterday from the dentist
    “my father sure learned a lot from the time I was 15 ’til I was 25″. haha

  175. bp February 6, 2007 7:50 am

    heheh, yeah ostrich, now there’s a truism

  176. Dr Jane Karlsson February 6, 2007 7:52 am

    m1953 74, just read parts of that report, and I’m freaking out. It’s at the same time utterly terrifying and utterly ludicrous, and the reason it’s terrifying is because it’s ludicrous. I mean, these people are absolutely serious about this stuff.

    ‘It is necessary to accelerate developments in medical technology and healthcare in order to obtain maximum benefit from converging technologies, including molecular medicine and nano-engineered medication delivery systems, assistive devices to alleviate mental and emotional disabilities, rapid sensing and preventive measures to block the spread of infectious and environmental diseases, continuous detection and correction of abnormal individual health indications, and integration of genetic therapy and genome-aware treatment into daily medical practice. To accomplish this research laboratories, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals and health maintenance organizations, and medical schools will need to expand greatly their institutional partnerships and technical scope.’

    Now I understand what’s happening here in Oxford. I went into the science area for a seminar last summer and a large group of buildings, which included the Genetics department where I used to work, had been reduced to a pile of rubble. Now new buildings are going up. All the department libraries are closing. A beautiful old copper beech in front of the Physiology department has been cut down, apparently just to spite the people campaigning to save it.

    Nobody seems to understand what’s happening, but they don’t like it and I think many of them are scared.

  177. m1953 February 6, 2007 8:13 am

    177 Great,Dr Jane! My background is in mathematics and mechanical engineering so ia was at a big disadvantage in really judging what in those reports is really feasable.I am grateful this has finally got into the hands of someone with enough background in the Life Sciences. I really would like to know how much of this is feasable in the next 10 - 20 years, I have put it on other web sites and it was totally ignored, I am just grateful some one with the credentials to judge can give us an opinion and perhaps some warnings.

  178. zephyr February 6, 2007 8:13 am

    Bp, 174, I’m not really angry per se. I mean, sorta, but not really. I guess I’m more hung up when people deny the obvious. Like “Well, I’m a boomer and I’m not like that, so you’ll fulla shit, F off!” That sort of thing. Yeah, I read the book so I guess that’s the part of life that’s pre-determined. Like the current generation….as a whole. Wacky, lazy, detached, entitled…..gee, I guess that could apply to any generation…..point taken.

  179. bp February 6, 2007 8:47 am

    #179, zephyr - you da bomb zephyr, hehe - I was in PA around Thanksgiving (deer hunting season - I musta counted 30-40 dead deer on the highway and nearly ran into one on a back road at night - if times get hard, go to southwestern PA - they’ve got plenty of deer, hehe

  180. kia February 6, 2007 9:22 am

    Makia (#155)

    Reading “Yuga, an Anatomy of Our Fate” by Marty Glass helped me understand that wisdom traditions the world over have predicted our current circumstances. I have learned that evolution is a process because I am witnessing devolution.

    No sense sweating the inevitable.

    Regardless of how I feel about the actions of ours I have to feel that they are doing the best they can, but have to admit to being disappointed. I can only surmise that the purpose of my life is to try to provide an example.

    After all, no one is totally worthless, one may always serve as a bad example.

    Stranger (#160),

    Thanks for the link, keep ‘em coming. My understanding is that the Ronald Reagan left San Diego last Thursday, which put the earliest attack around Feb 24. Also i am looking forward to your next song. Something about turning the Red Sea Red.

    m1953 (#167)

    I sincerely hope you are right. No honor among thieves.

    bp (#174),

    that’s the secret!

    Zephyr (#165).

    I appreciate your confidence, and have this to offer as a potential backup to what you have heard/read. I’d be interested in your (and everyone’s feedback)


    Zephyr (#170),

    If you can trust my sources the US has been “in” Iran for over the last year with the CIA providing “backpacks” to Kurds in the north. A “backpack” is $1M USD in $100 dollar bills. Special Forces have also been conducting operations in an attempt to have Iranians rise against the clerics. Anyone have any info on our activities inside Iran?


  181. zephyr February 6, 2007 9:30 am

    Kia, Peter Gabriel already sang about Red Rain. And Ozzy Osbourne was always singing (or croaking) about oceans of blood and generic stuff like that. C’mon, gotta be original.

    Will read your link. My sources tell me the Iranians make a mean lamb kebob! Falafel is smoking, too! Awaiting final word on their desserts.

  182. kia February 6, 2007 9:59 am


    Iran is beautiful, full of proud Persians who share little or no identification with the Arabs. I had the pleasure to experience their hospitality during a trip to Mt. Elbrus. I highly recommend the yogurt drinks.

    The Iranians are largely pro-American and resent the influence of the mullahs. Based on the results of the latest election, it appears that they do not Ahmadinejad’s extremist positions.

    It saddens me that we will make them the next enemy as part of the NeoCon’s dream of a greater Pipelinestan.

    As for turning the Red Sea Red:

    One More Red Nightmare Lyrics
    by King Crimson (Fripp/Wetton)

    Pan American nightmare
    Ten thousand feet fun-fair
    Convinced that I don’t care
    It’s safe as houses I swear
    I was just sitting musing
    The virtues of cruising
    When altitude dropping
    My ears started popping
    One more red nightmare

    Sweat beginning to pour down
    My neck as I turn round
    I heard fortune shouting
    Just get off of this outing
    A farewell swan song
    See you know how turbulence can be
    The stewardess made me
    One more red nightmare

    Reality stirred me
    My angel had heard me
    The prayer had been answered
    A reprieve has been granted
    The dream was now broken
    Thought rudely awoken
    Really safe and sound
    Asleep on the Greyhound
    One more red nightmare


  183. zephyr February 6, 2007 10:29 am

    Such a shame, I’m sure Iranians are good people and I would love to travel there. People are so easily influenced though, into believing that these people are our enemies and must be stopped. It sickens me really. And the people that buy the bullshit have usually never even travelled outside of their own state let alone the country. The more I travel, the more I realize how small the world really is and that we’re really in this together. It goes back to what I told BP, I hate ignorance especially if it leads to feelings of hatred, prejudice and the like. Sounds hypocritical but yes, I hate hatred. Like the old bumper sticker says- Mean People Suck!

    Man, you’ve done some travelin’! I had to look up where Mt Elbrus was. What were you doing there?

  184. bp February 6, 2007 11:05 am

    #184 zehpyr - I gotta think that site someone, I think it was muleskinner, linked to for Robert Anton Wilson about says it for me - there are infofiles (sp) and infophobics (sp) in every age group - it’s the infophobics that hold things back, resist change - I would suspect mean people have a LOT of fear and anger - heheh, just think of Cheney - Hard to not get sucked onto their playing field

  185. kia February 6, 2007 11:14 am


    I am the world’s luckiest mountain bum. We ended up climbing the West and East summits, after being turned back by the PKK in eastern Turkey where we had to abort our attempt on Mt. Ararat(supposedly the site of Noah’s ark).

    Mt. Elbrus is the highest peak in Europe and the Elburz mountains are the suture between Europe and Asia. It sports a stunning view of the Caspian sea.

    The Turks are also very fine people. I have spent 2/3 of my last 30 years working and climbing in the Andes, Himalaya, Karokorum, Alps, Alaska, and most ranges in the American West.

    I started cutting ropes for Yvon Chouinard when I was twelve when he was developing clean climbing and learned at the feet of Tom Frost, T.M Herbert, Doug Robinson and had the honor of sharing a rope with John Salathe.

    The mountain people are the toughest in the world, and they have consistently treated me with generosity. My experiences have led me to believe that 99% of the world is full of good people, and that it is the other 1% that causes most of the problems that we can discuss.

    My sincere hope is that someday all humans will focus on their commonalities rather than their differences. It is my best hope for


  186. Abantiades February 6, 2007 11:19 am
  187. kia February 6, 2007 11:34 am

    bp (#185),

    you can say that again, here’s my favorite infophobe:

    Exxon through the American Enterpise Institute is offering $10K to any scientist to repeat party line.

    Peace and Truth

  188. kia February 6, 2007 11:37 am
  189. zephyr February 6, 2007 11:54 am

    That’s what a conservative is…NO change whatsoever, none! Hell, if they had their druthers we would still have slavery, no voting rights for women and massacres of native Americans going on daily. However, change to our environment is good. As long as that change involves razing forests.

    One thing I don’t understand. Before he left office, Clinton set aside alot of land. Well, apparently that doesn’t matter because Bushie, upon arriving opened up this land for development. And that’s the thing….you can reverse setting land aside but you can’t reverse it in the other direction once it’s been done. You can’t patch a forest back together. Don’t get me wrong, Democrats suck. And I’ve been getting the obligatory e-mail regarding Clinton and all the people associated with him and her who have mysteriously died or been murdered. But Republicans suck more, mainly because they’re meaner. And mean people suck!!!

    And if one person in politics was proven to be a satanist or satan himself, it would have to be that prick bastard Cheney. Now, BP, there’s no anger there….just an observation of sorts. He is a P-R-I-C-K B-A-S-T-A-R-D, just so there’s no mistake or something gets lost in translation. Male genitalia born of an unmarried woman= Dick Cheney. I mean, how much more obvious could it be? DICK (genitals) Cheney ( which I believe is Latin for illegitimate ). Case closed…..gee, I hope Michael allows this one to stay posted. :-)

  190. kia February 6, 2007 11:57 am


    don’t hold back, tell us how you REALLY feel! ;-)

  191. zephyr February 6, 2007 11:58 am

    OK, hold on, let me get to my thesaurus…..

  192. kia February 6, 2007 12:01 pm


    while you are paging through, here’s a heart warming message:


  193. kia February 6, 2007 12:33 pm

    This just in:

    All the recent obituaries written about Saddam Hussein were incomplete. All left out a listing of his surviving sons and daughters.

    A listing follows:

    He was predeceased by two sons, Uday and Qusay, and is survived by 15 sons:
    Sooflay, a restauranteur;
    Guday, who lives in Australia;
    Huray, a sports fanatic;
    Sashay, who is gay;
    Kuntay and Kintay, twins living in Africa;
    Sayhay, a baseball player;
    Ojay, football player and a stalker and murderer;
    Gulay, a singer/entertainer;
    Ebay, an internet entrepreneur;
    Biliray, a country music star;
    Ecksray, a radiologist;
    Puray, a manufacturer of kitchen blenders;
    Raygay, who lives in Jamaica;
    Tupay, who is bald,

    and by seven daughters:
    Lattay, a coffee-shop owner;
    Bufay, a big eater;
    Dushay, owner of a feminine-care-products company;
    Phayray, an actress;
    Sapheway, a grocery store owner;
    Ollay, who lives in Mexico;
    and Gudlay, a prostitute.

    There is reportedly another surviving son, Oyvay, but he has been disowned
    by the family.

  194. bp February 6, 2007 1:47 pm

    heh, you two are on a roll - cool history kia

  195. ostrich February 6, 2007 2:09 pm

    Zephyr #190- you’re younger than me how do you clap on a blog or do you just type hip hip hurray
    Kia I said it before and I’ll say it til I die we all bleed red.

  196. bp February 6, 2007 3:04 pm

    heh, muleskinner - I can’t get that here — http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/417/2032

    I’ll have to keep an eye for it

  197. bp February 6, 2007 3:16 pm

    but I have tried some of this brewery’s stuff - you might like some of it - http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/2097

    see where my mind is

  198. zephyr February 6, 2007 4:46 pm


  199. zephyr February 6, 2007 4:47 pm

    I’m just experimenting 8-)

  200. zephyr February 6, 2007 4:49 pm

    Ok 1 out of 2, Ostrich….no luck with clapping though and my wife helped look very thoroughly, more or less.


  201. zephyr February 6, 2007 4:50 pm


  202. zephyr February 6, 2007 4:51 pm

    Ok I’ll stop now :-o

  203. zephyr February 6, 2007 5:07 pm

    :-( :-\ :-| :-p :-* :-D :’( :-@

  204. zephyr February 6, 2007 5:11 pm

    Ok, Ostrich there’s my little experiment. Actually, for everyone out there…we now have a couple of new emotocons….hurray….Hands Clapping D’OH!!!

  205. JLS February 6, 2007 8:36 pm

    We have a problem Houston. Americans have become haters of the truth. Truth is we still have legal racism. We just changed the race quotas from hurting women and minorities to helping them. All that was good in 1950, is now evil. All that was evil in 1950, such as credit, debt, unbalanced budgets, working mothers, unmarried parents, being on welfare, is now a social good. People cheer the decline of all 1950’s values like being married before you have children. Now over 35% of children are born to unmarried women. Sad for the kids. It is politically incorrect to publicly criticize the new world order or the social reengineering of the world to a “service sector” computerized credit card, vampire, cannibalizing, carnivoer society. We have met the enemy and he is us. When people yearn for the truth (other than George W. Bush’s twisted sad version) we will get it. Until then, protect yourself.

  206. kia February 6, 2007 11:14 pm

    bp (#195),

    thanks for you IPCC contribution.

    i’m so tired of the hired swine.


  207. Dr Jane Karlsson February 7, 2007 5:08 am

    zephyr 165, no I haven’t seen Hyperspace, but talking about the sun, I’ve seen some stuff on http://www.thunderbolts.info that might just be the missing link on climate change. Have a look at this: http://www.rense.com/general66/expl.htm

  208. muleskinner February 7, 2007 5:09 am

    Rocky Mountain High in British Columbia

    A climber’s paradise, they say. If you haven’t been there, go.

    “Things ain’t tough yet. I’ve seen one dog eat another dog.” - words of a farmer remembering and repeating the words of an older farmer who farmed during the Dirty Thirties

    You don’t know how good you’ve got it.

  209. Dr Jane Karlsson February 7, 2007 5:12 am

    Kia 181, just read that link saying the whole solar system is warming up. Wow.

  210. Dr Jane Karlsson February 7, 2007 5:28 am

    Kia 194, I was just thinking about serious things like climate change, and you go and make me laugh again, dammit. How can I concentrate on the End of the World with people like you around?

  211. Dr Jane Karlsson February 7, 2007 6:22 am

    Skeptical 84, many thanks. I’ve googled the Shell ICP Process, and Shell says it produces 3.5 units of energy for every unit used to heat the shale, which sounds good. But as far as I can ascertain, that does not include the energy cost of the ‘wall of ice’ which you have to make around the site to prevent groundwater coming in and cooling the shale down again. Since you have to heat the shale for several years, presumably you have to keep the ice wall frozen for several years too. Do you have any thoughts on this? Sounds as if it could actually be considerably less than the 3.5 units that Shell is claiming.

  212. zephyr February 7, 2007 6:56 am

    Ok, so here we go. About a minute ago, a friend/mechanic from our garage dropped me home. My wife’s brakes need work and she took my car. His name is Charlie and he’s a great guy. He told me a story that has become a microcosm of the country. His wife just lost her job of 10-12 years. She was too well paid. The garage where he works is dead. He has a trip to Florida next week paid for that he can’t afford now. Heating and electric are going up exponentially. True, our electric company is going up 50%. Yeah, you read that right. He unfortunately is one of too many people who took all the equity out and now owes more than the house is worth.

    And you wonder why people are walking around looking miserable. In his words, the bottom is dropping out in this country. People are losing work all over. Wal-Mart workers are proposing a lawsuit. Stop & Shop, a big supermarket chain here, their workers are going on strike. Like ‘Skinner says, we haven’t seen the worst of it yet. By the way, ‘Skinner, I hope ya still love me despite the boomer comments I made. You know I wasn’t talking about you 8-) .

    Anyway, what will the majority of people do? They were lead into a trap and willingly took the bait. Now that corporate America and the Feds have them by the balls, what will they do? What would you do?

  213. bp February 7, 2007 7:01 am

    #206, JLS - Re:

    We have met the enemy and he is us.

    er, I believe Pogo said that — what goes around, comes around, hehe

    gee, zephyr - hope this quote thing works, eh

  214. bp February 7, 2007 7:09 am

    213, zephyr -

    By the way, ‘Skinner, I hope ya still love me despite the boomer comments I made. You know I wasn’t talking about you

    What’s you mean Willis, er, just giving you a hard time, hehe - this blockquote stuff is cool, heheh

    man, that story sucks zephyr - what would I do, hm, declare bankruptcy, get a new social security card/number from the underground, and start over again somewhere else, maybe British Columbiahehe, sounds great — kia, you climbed there?

  215. zephyr February 7, 2007 7:12 am

    Hey bp, you OK? Seems like you’ve gone goofy like Makia. You been huffin’ glue again?

  216. zephyr February 7, 2007 7:30 am

    Wow, it’s bizarre….like living in a ghost town…or my friend’s street near Phoenix where he’e the only resident. No kidding. Anyway, Michael comes up with a new topic and everyone come out of the woodwork to throw their 2 cents in, and then they scatter like sheep.

    After awhile all I can hear is my own breathing….and of course bp giggling in some dark corner.

  217. muleskinner February 7, 2007 7:33 am
  218. bp February 7, 2007 7:35 am

    heheh, yeah - what do they call them - something like one shot and gone - me ok?, yeah, Makia said it was contagious, hehe

    I figure it’s getting to the point of gallows humor… just getting restless with the slow motion wave action going on in the world

  219. kia February 7, 2007 7:38 am


    I live right on the US/Canada border, and have had the pleasure of guiding ski mountaineering trips in the Selkirks for 12 years. Elsewhere I had the good luck of Mother Nature letting me get to the summits of Mt. Robson, Mt. Logan, and Hawser Tower in the Bugaboos.

    Like I said, I’m the luckiest mountain bum in the world, as mother nature has been good to me. I have an additional appreciation of that since I lost 4 partners (all my age) last year.

    B.C. is wonderful, and so are the people.


  220. bp February 7, 2007 7:46 am

    you do sound like one lucky dude - hope you stay lucky!!

  221. Dr Jane Karlsson February 7, 2007 7:55 am

    m1953 178, you asked how much of the science in that report was feasible in the next 10-20 years.

    Short answer, none of it. Listen to this: ‘The human body will be more durable, healthier, more energetic, easier to repair, and more resistant to many kinds of stress, biological threats, and ageing processes.’

    Not through technology, it won’t. Biological systems are self-repairing, and there is no technology in existence that could even in theory do the same job.

    The writers think all society’s ills are caused by genetically inferior people who are sick and stupid and need machines of one kind or another to make them function properly.

    I have been trying to tell people like Tony Blair the truth about these things for many years. I get nowhere, and nor does anyone else, see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2764165.stm for an account of what happens when you give prison inmates the vitamins and minerals lacking from their diets, and the incomprehensible response of the Home Office.

  222. zephyr February 7, 2007 8:02 am

    So, Dr. Jane, you’ve actually been in contact with Tony Blair and you haven’t….you know….hurt him…you know….in some way? Ummm,….why not? Now you’ve let me down.

  223. kia February 7, 2007 8:24 am


    Luck happens when preparedness meets opportunity!


    If we can’t have fun before the End of the World, then when are we going to have time to fit it in?


  224. zephyr February 7, 2007 8:59 am

    Oh c’mon Kia, that’s an old one. Come up with something new and bold. Catastrophe happens when DumbAss meets Satan. Translated: Iraq (or soon Iran) happens when Bush meets Cheney. See! It’s alot catchier. Kinda rolls off the tongue which is very important to take into account.


  225. bp February 7, 2007 9:39 am

    hehe, yeah, I think in kia’s case it’s more like Luck Happens When Preparedness Meets Bad S**t

    zephyr, hm - how about evil spawn is born when satan meets the mother of all wars…hm, just doesn’t sound as good as yours, heh

  226. kia February 7, 2007 10:33 am


    Never heard the melody until I needed the song.

  227. bp February 7, 2007 11:11 am

    kia, cool - speaking of songs, I’m listening to McMurtry now - soon be time to march, I’m thinking

  228. kia February 7, 2007 11:22 am


    if you like McMurtry, you might also appreciate Greg Brown.


    two little feet to get me ‘cross the mountain
    two little feet to carry me away into the woods
    two little feet, big mountain, and a
    cloud comin’ down cloud comin’ down cloud comin’ down

    I hear the voice of the ancient ones
    chanting magic words from a different time
    well there is no time there is only this rain
    there is no time, that’s why I missed my plane

    John Muir walked away into the mountains
    in his old overcoat a crust of bread in his pocket
    we have no knowledge and so we have stuff and
    stuff with no knowledge is never enough to get you there
    it just won’t get you there

    a culture exploded into knickknacks and memories
    Eagle and Bear trinkets I don’t think it’s good
    old man what am I trying to say it’s a
    it’s a messed up world but I love it anyway

    two little feet to get me ‘cross the city
    my little hand to knock upon your door
    my little thing for your little thing
    and a big love to lift us up once more to the mountain
    lift us up

    tumble us like scree let us holler out our freedom like a
    like a wolf across a valley like a kid lost in a game
    no time no name gonna miss that plane again
    and I’m gonna stay here with you baby and kiss you to a good dream
    I’m goin’ kiss you
    kiss you like you like it

    I got two little feet to get me across the mountain
    two little feet to carry me away into the woods
    two little feet big mountain and a
    cloud comin’ down cloud comin’ down cloud comin’ down


  229. bp February 7, 2007 12:23 pm

    kia, couldn’t find a site playing that song, but did find this - http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=87459293

  230. kia February 7, 2007 12:39 pm


    Two little Feet is from his “Further In” CD

  231. zephyr February 7, 2007 12:58 pm

    Michael HELP!!!! Another topic PLEASE!!!

  232. bp February 7, 2007 12:59 pm

    hehe, maybe he needs to deep six this thread

  233. zephyr February 7, 2007 1:05 pm


  234. zephyr February 7, 2007 1:23 pm

    :-o Help meeee….my mind is turning to mush….need…cerebral…stimulation…

    :-o Ohhhh Noooooo…….!

  235. zephyr February 7, 2007 3:16 pm


  236. Makia February 8, 2007 6:05 am

    On a long drive last weekend, i verbalized a thought i had had about the process of evolution since the beginning of life and the function (form) of viruses.

    The visualisation is that viruses are extremely simple organisms which implant DNA inside the nucleus of a cell (where the own cell’s DNA is - stay with me people). Thereby the virus alters the DNA of the cell. And each virus is different, right? Anyone thinking what i’m thinking?

    Basically, everything has a purpose. That’s what’s extremely important here.

    Another topic of converstaion on the ride was herpes (seperate conversation beleive it or not, my wife’s a nursing student so you do the math). Now the perspective that i proport is that if no one had herpes symptoms, then no one would worry about herpes one way or the other. It would be “just” another organism in the body. Perhaps we would even find a positive benefit?

    And thats one of the few significant problems i have with a great portion of “scientific” studies, especially those dealing with medicine and physiology: The whitecoats pull together a few hundred or a few thousand people and call it a “representative sample.” Well thats all well and good but you’re only selecting from people who are going to the doctor for one reason or another, and then down to people who are willing to be studied. So there’s a large group of the population who is not represented a) people who don’t go to the doctor, b) people who don’t go to the doctor unless the are sick, and c) people who aren’t willing to be studied. Now what effect is this going to have on just about every single medical study ever done? Sometimes, its done more or less intentionally. For instance, you don’t test herpes medicine on people who aren’t sick. What about people who might have herpes but never take symptoms? Maybe never know they have it? Modern medicine almost never studies _healthy_ people.

    But they do know of the complex interations of the systems within our body. And at least a few of those systems are dependant on “foriegn” organisms. Organisms that we pick up _after_ we are born which help us digest food, develop a strong immune system on the inside and out, and what else?

    So where might random influxes of useful genetic code come from, and how might they be implanted into the DNA of a species? And perhaps most importantly, the host cell and its organism may react differently over the millenia. . .

    Just a thought. . .

    bp, many things are contagious eh? If an insight is useful and it becomes accepted and used positively by more people. . . that might be considered an infection.

  237. Dr Jane Karlsson February 8, 2007 6:10 am

    zephyr 223, no I don’t think I hurt him. Sucks, doesn’t it? However, I haven’t finished with him yet. Kia thinks when the End of the World comes we won’t have time for humour. Heheh.

  238. Makia February 8, 2007 6:24 am

    If i know me, after i’m done crying i’m gonna laugh my ass off.

  239. zephyr February 8, 2007 6:59 am

    So, Makia, first thanks for the cerebral input after a lost day (you lose so much via internet, as I’m typing that I’m saying it in my head with a Jewish accent…you know…kind of sing-songy).

    However, those are the types of thoughts you have on a long ride? Wow! And I thought I was disturbed 8-)

    I think about stuff like how the Red Sox will do this year, where my next jobs are coming from, when I can take my next painkiller, where I’m going to vacation next….stuff like that.

    Sorry I missed your call Monday night. I was working the UConn-Syracuse men’s basketball game. Very good game although my alma mater lost. I live in Ct but still cheer for the Orange when they play. It was an excellent game.

  240. Dr Jane Karlsson February 8, 2007 7:05 am

    Makia 237, right on. The whitecoats have been puzzling for ever about how those little things inside cells looked awfully like viruses. Well, they ARE viruses. And they control gene expression.

    There’s a chicken virus called avian leukemia virus which people thought only certain chicken flocks had, the ones that got leukemia, right? And then they found all chickens had it, the leukemia-prone ones had more of it, that was all. Well, avian leukemia virus is in the same family as HIV. See what I’m getting at?

    Remember that article bp gave us about ‘alien genes’? People had found a ‘language’ in the non-coding DNA, and were hopping up and down about it being a message from aliens. Well, quite a lot of the non-coding DNA is derived from … viruses. They’re called retrotransposons or endogenous retroviruses. And this DNA binds magic metals like copper and manganese, and electric currents flow along it which produce electromagnetic fields extending outside the body, and that’s what people like you can sense, the ‘aura’.

    zephyr, was that book you told us about, the Sacred Spiral, saying things like this?

  241. Makia February 8, 2007 7:09 am

    yeah, i figured as much

  242. zephyr February 8, 2007 7:14 am

    Yes, by Leonard Horowitz who also wrote Emerging Viruses: Aids & Ebola Nature Accident or intentional. What are you getting at,Doc? Some people believe vaccinations are really bad for you. And have you seen the story here in the states where in Texas (of course, Texas), where the state govt wants to force young girls to be vaccinated for a certain type of STD that causes, forgive me, some cancer, I can’t remember exactly. Anyway, Girls as young as 9 will be vaccinated. And some people are saying the govt has no right to force this on anyone. One person said what 9 year old has multiple sex partners and if they did the parents have bigger concerns than this vaccine.

    Some people believe vaccinations are ways of controlling the masses. Some believe it’s just more careless whereby you might be causing trouble instead of helping. Your thoughts?

  243. Makia February 8, 2007 7:14 am

    zephyr, the accent made me feel very intellectual for a momment there. . .

  244. muleskinner February 8, 2007 7:22 am

    I am going to buy some barley for malting. Which one? Robust? Drummond? Anyone?

  245. Dr Jane Karlsson February 8, 2007 7:24 am

    Kia 220, are you really saying you lost FOUR climbing partners in one year? Jesus Christ.

  246. zephyr February 8, 2007 7:32 am

    Boy, I love how the train of thought jumps around on here. ‘Skinner pops on “Hey, I’m makin’ some beer here, c’mon! Enough with the end of the world crapola!” (Archie Bunker accent included).

    So, Makia, when did I lose you?

    And Dr. Jane, stick with the thread, don’t flip-flop (Oh I hate that term because of Bush. That and “slippery slope”. Now it’s part of the American lexicon. People say it and then pause for a second as if to say, “Aren’t I smart..uh,huh,huh…them’s words the prez-e-dent uses.”).

    Wow, I sense today has potential.

  247. Makia February 8, 2007 7:43 am

    Zephyr, i’m not lost, i’ve been right here the whole time.

  248. Makia February 8, 2007 7:47 am

    Muleskinner. . . wish i had some input. Actually, someone left a beer in my fridge said i needed to try. It was Blue Moon “Belgian wheat ale.” They said it was the best beer ever (a laughable remark). Well i be darned that they weren’t more right than not. Normally, skinner, i like to pick some hops and barley out of my teeth after a nice swig, but i don’t know the second thing about the construction of beer. But considering my affection for a “nutritional” beer, that wheat ale was somethin’ else.

  249. muleskinner February 8, 2007 7:48 am

    “Yeah, well, that’s just your opinion, man.” - The Dude

    The sword of Damocles looms.

  250. Makia February 8, 2007 8:13 am

    Yeah, i’ve always been partial to a Russo Blanco.

  251. zephyr February 8, 2007 8:16 am

    ‘Skinner, you know I luv ya, but sometimes I don’t know what the hell you’re trying to convey. But that’s your charm!

  252. zephyr February 8, 2007 8:19 am

    Hey ‘Skinner, you said something about Sam Adams once. Did you not like it? Which one of their varieties did you taste? Or was it the price that got you because it seems any decent brew costs around 10 bucks now.

  253. muleskinner February 8, 2007 8:25 am

    I’ve tried regular Sam Adams and the light.

    No big deal, man.


    An outstanding lager from The Yukon.

    Just trying to add some humor. If you haven’t seen ‘The Big Lebowski,’ see it. You’ll understand the attempt at humor.

  254. kia February 8, 2007 8:34 am

    Jane (#245),

    Yeah, I’m still trying to get over it myself. Charles Rosenthal, Doug Coombs, Todd Skinner, and Charlie Fowler, all fellow high altitude mountaineers who I tremble when I think about entering 2007 without their company. I try to stay clear of belief, but if re-incarnation is true then they will all be together with me in the new year, unless one of them was lucky enough to evolve onto the next plane. I rest assured in my not knowing.

    Because that’s the Cosmic Joke, all the faith and all the belief stills adds up to not knowing where we came from, or where we are going to the point where I don’t even know what will happen tomorrow.

    I’m so stupid I don’t even know what type of sport you do with an SUV.

    I rejoice in my not knowing an hope that all of us on our little rock in space can unite in the appreciation of this greatest mystery of mysteries and work toward peace so that we may continue to pursue our individual paths that are as varied as those who walk them. I’m lucky to have such fine company!

    Zephyr, EVERY day have potential!

    Peace to You Today, Tomorrow and Forever

  255. kia February 8, 2007 8:41 am



    Here’s the latest on PA-free malting barley, which will reduce your haze.

  256. kia February 8, 2007 8:57 am


    Dear All,

    Here’s George Carlin on the Basic Truth,


  257. zephyr February 8, 2007 9:07 am

    I have seen the Big Lebowski, I love that movie, John Goodman is hilarious, I don’t know if I’ve laughed harder than at some of his scenes. I just didn’t put 2 and 2 together. Hey, try Sam’s Winter Lager…one of my favorites.

  258. zephyr February 8, 2007 9:37 am


    This, my friends, is some serious shit and is being totally ignored by the media. If Israel destroys the Al Aqsa mosque by taking out its infrastructure, all hell will break lose. For those uninformed, this mosque on the temple mount is holy to Islam and the place where the the old temple used to sit. Prophecy has it that the Temple holy to Judaism would be rebuilt atop the Temple Mount. Well, it looks like Jews are getting impatient.

    More signs of the times. These folks want the ultimate holy war. Of course, the Dome of the Rock still sits there so what are we might have are dualing holy buildings on one small site. More fuel to the fire.

  259. Makia February 8, 2007 9:48 am

    Yeah zeph, some people want a Holy War. Others are just more than willing to exploit prophecy/superstition. My feeling is that those do the most to push the superstition to the forfront of the public’s perception beleive in the rubbish the least. Then there are the mouthpeices who love playing the part of demogouge/prophet orator. Some people just _love_ to hear themselves talk. Oh, and prophecy fulfillment? Very hot topic.

  260. muleskinner February 8, 2007 9:54 am

    Boulevard from the keg is a great wheat beer, imo. Moose Drool is good. Snowstorm from Schell’s is like Guinness stout.

    Somebody tried to tell me that Hefeweizen is good. I don’t think so.

    The McNosis is complete, Baghdad is burning and nobody cares.

    The Hagia Sofia was an eastern orthodox cathedral until the Muslims got a hold of it.

    The Hagia Sophia was erected during the reign of Emperor Justinian (532 - 537 A.D.), when the Byzantine Empire was at the height of its power and influence. The massive dome, which is the prominent architectural feature, has since often been used as a model for the design of Islamic mosques. Indeed, after the fall of Byzantium, the Hagia Sophia was converted into an Ottoman mosque. Today, the monument is a museum serving both Christians and Muslims.

    timeline of church history

  261. zephyr February 8, 2007 9:56 am

    Yeah, well, every religion believes God is on their side and that God promised them this chunk of land. Having been to the Temple Mount, I can attest it doesn’t seem to be that great for real estate. Oh, but the history there. Actually, when I was standing there thinking of all the blood that had been shed on that site….all in the name of religion.

    It is a mockery. And all the parties involved are pushing the envelope, believing their time in history has arrived. It is a sham and a mockery. This war is inevitable and will effect us all once all is said and done. I just wish calmer, saner minds could prevail.

  262. bp February 8, 2007 9:56 am

    quick note - sapiens, if you’re out there how do you interpret this article in the light of your understanding of evil

  263. kia February 8, 2007 10:25 am


    I know you disagree, but:

    The miracle of monotheism and the “Abrahamic” religions is that they separated people, and then sent them out to kill each other. Nothing illustrates it better than the Rapturists and Xians for Zion.

    As Harrold Bloom says in his fine book “Jesus and Yaweh, the Names Divine) in the first sentence of the first page:

    “There are no verifiable facts about Jesus of Nazareth”

    Religion is the politics of spirituality. Religion is social control.
    Religion is the major threat to world peace.
    Religion is a waste of time and will remain so.

    The only hope for peace on this earth is to eliminate from the planet it as Issac Asimov said. Einstein said God has no religion. Ratz’s little diatribe about Muslims illustrates this. The Baptist joke I posted earlier is another. The Church’s abuse of children and subsequent cover-up is another. Religion and intolerance of “un-believers” go hand in hand and serves to undermine common understandings. There is only one Human Nature.

    Religion is a dead end street for human understanding and cooperation, and currently threatens to usher in the New Dark Ages when they should be using their tax-supported businesses to work for peace.

    The solution to the religious disease is to recognize the commonalities that we all share, leaving people with no other label than human being. I know that it will never happen, but I can hope and dream.

    And now a Word from my hero Frank Zappa:


    Whoever we are
    Wherever we’re from
    We shoulda noticed by now
    Our behavior is dumb
    And if our chances
    Expect to improve
    It’s gonna take a lot more
    Than tryin’ to remove
    The other race
    Or the other whatever
    From the face
    Of the planet altogether

    They call it THE EARTH
    Which is a dumb kinda name
    But they named it right
    ‘Cause we behave the same . . .
    We are dumb all over
    Dumb all over,
    Yes we are
    Dumb all over,
    Near ‘n far
    Dumb all over,
    Black ‘n white
    People, we is not wrapped tight

    Nurds on the left
    Nurds on the right
    Religious fanatics
    On the air every night
    Sayin’ the Bible
    Tells the story
    ‘N makes the details
    Sound real gory
    ‘Bout what to do
    If the geeks over there
    Don’t believe in the book
    We got over here

    You can’t run a race
    Without no feet
    ‘N pretty soon
    There won’t be no street
    For dummies to jog on
    Or doggies to dog on
    Religious fanatics
    Can make it be all gone
    (I mean it won’t blow up
    ‘N disappear
    It’ll just look ugly
    For a thousand years . . . )

    You can’t run a country
    By a book of religion
    Not by a heap
    Or a lump or a smidgeon
    Of foolish rules
    Of ancient date
    Designed to make
    You all feel great
    While you fold, spindle
    And mutilate
    Those unbelievers
    From a neighboring state

    Hooray! That’s great
    Two legs ain’t bad
    Unless there’s a crate
    They ship the parts
    To mama in
    For souvenirs: two ears (Get Down!)
    Not his, not hers (but what the hey?)
    The Good Book says:
    “It gotta be that way!”
    But their book says:
    With whips ‘n chains
    ‘N hand grenades . . . ”
    Have another and another
    Our God says:
    “There ain’t no other!”
    Our God says
    “It’s all okay!”
    Our God says
    “This is the way!”

    It says in the book:
    “Burn ‘n destroy . . .
    ‘N repent, ‘n redeem
    ‘N revenge, ‘n deploy
    ‘N rumble thee forth
    To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
    ‘Cause they don’t go for what’s in the book
    ‘N that makes ‘em BAD
    So verily we must choppeth them up
    And stompeth them down
    Or rent a nice French bomb
    To poof them out of existance
    While leaving their real estate just where we need it
    To use again
    For temples in which to praise
    (”Cause he can really take care of business!”)

    And when his humble TV servant
    With humble white hair
    And humble glasses
    And a nice brown suit
    And maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls
    Tells us our God says
    It’s okay to do this stuff
    Then we gotta do it,
    ‘Cause if we don’t do it,
    We ain’t gwine up to hebbin!
    (Depending on which book you’re using at the time . . . Can’t use theirs . . . it don’t work . . . it’s all lies . . . Gotta use mine . . . )
    Ain’t that right?
    That’s what they say
    Every night . . .
    Every day . . .
    Hey, we can’t really be dumb
    If we’re just following God’s Orders
    Hey, Let’s get serious . . .
    God knows what he’s doin’ . . .
    He wrote this book here
    An’ the book says:
    “He made us all to be just like Him,” so . . .
    If we’re dumb . . .
    Then God is dumb . . .
    (An’ maybe even a little ugly on the side)



  264. zephyr February 8, 2007 11:10 am

    Kia, you’re presumptuous, what makes you think I would disagree. The proof is in the pudding. You tell a tree by it’s fruit. Most people who call themselves religious are indeed narrow-minded and use their pulpit to their advantage and not others.

    But, as always, not all. Religion perceived correctly does wonders, connects one to the Almighty and serves as an example of human connectivity. You might disagree, but Buddhism is not the only path to enlightenment. I’m sure there are Buddhists who are not prime examples of their faith either.

    I won’t debate whether Jesus existed. That statement that there are no verifiable facts is only one person’s opinion and we all know about opinions. Was Myth added to fact along the path of history? Sure, but how many things from any far off time frame are truly verifiable therefore? Is Buddha verifiable? Are his teachings? Weren’t they handed down as well? His only difference is he didn’t claim divinity per se. That gives him more credibility?

    “The only way for peace is through eradicating religion.” Sounds Communistic, we all know how that played out. Einstein said God had no religion, he didn’t say there was no God.

    “Religion is a deadend street for human understanding and cooperation, and currently threatens to usher in the dark ages when they should be using their tax-supported businesses to work for peace.” Sorry, that by itself is ignorant hogwash. Yeah, Godless capitalism has worked wonders for this country. You’re on a roll here with quotes- Communism and blatent capitalism- great wonders of man.

    You have one view of all things monotheistic and a preconceived notion of how religion “is”. Not everybody is like that and I take offense because it presupposes that I must also be like that. Dig deeper before passing supreme judgment.

    Someone can take science and use it for their ugly purposes. Does that make the science by itself bad? Of course not! Neither is that the case for monotheistic religions. Some people have taken it hostage and misconstrued it. It doesn’t change the essence of what lies beneath. If everybody here didn’t have such pre-cast opinions, I would recommend reading the writings of Pope John Paul II. He addressed alot of which you speak in theological, scientific, highly intelligent manners.

    But no, without having read any of his stuff, you and others automatically dismiss what he had to say simply because he had the word “pope” attached to his name. THAT, is prejudice and you cannot pass judgment on anything without at least the minimal of exposure to it. But I beat a dead horse here as anytime I mention “the pope”, there is a knee-jerk response. I guess Buddha was the only person who could possibly have been enlightened. At least I have exposed myself to his teachings and don’t dismiss them out of hand if I have no knowledge of what I’m saying.

    Do not presume to know what I think or assume to know what my reaction will be.

    Bp 262, the article is accurate and shows that poverty and perverse conditions play into narrow, fantastic views of religion. What is true of Islam is true of Christianity. When Islamic countries were prosperous, there was peace and acceptance of others. Check the history. Poverty takes away all hope and leaves a hole that unfortunately some “people of God” have used to their advantage to further their cause. It does not make religion evil in and of itself.

    Lastly, Frank Zappa was a genius musically and was the first person I heard suggest Aids was lab created. Don’t forget he also wrote Titties & Beers, and I promise not to cum in your mouth, masterpieces in their own right. he was a touch eccentric though and hardly the final word on all things spiritual.

  265. Makia February 8, 2007 11:21 am

    Zephyr, no! Please don’t hold back! We want to know what you _really_ think!


    Alright, now hug and make up you guys. This isn’t a bad conversation, but its good to remember how complex it gets sometimes. . .

  266. zephyr February 8, 2007 11:42 am

    Hey, I don’t give you guys shit about being Buddhist. Why would I? But I don’t like being lumped in with a bunch of knuckleheads, directly or indirectly. I’ve never insinuated Buddhism was a horseshit religion like I perceive is being said to me about my beliefs. When I was sitting next to someone while waiting for the papal audience, he referred to Buddhism as Dogma rather than religion. After looking up the definition, is it true? Because I actually defended you guys to him.

    I never get that reciprocal feeling here. In ‘86 or’87, JP II had a national day of prayer at the Vatican and had representatives of all major religions. He met with the Dalai Lama something like 13 times in his life. Yeah, he sounds like a really narrow-minded prick, just like the ones Kia describes in his text.

    Don’t cater to me on this one Makia. This isn’t my Cheney diatribe of the other day. This IS more personal because I strive to be the best person I can based on my faith. Fail? Yeah, all the time, but I try. And while I do bitch rather loudly, I also listen rather intently and never try to intentially hurt another personally. (unless, as I’ve said, that person is an asshole who is denigrating others).

    Sorry, no LOL on this one.

  267. Makia February 8, 2007 12:02 pm

    Zephyr, this is a complex issue. Reciprocal feeling? Yes you do, from me. If you don’t know that then thats a misunderstanding or miscommunication between us. But you don’t know how i _really_ feel about Christianity, or the Papal State. You also, because of some miscommunication or misunderstanding, don’t understand my feelings about Bhuddism or Shidarta. Its no big deal. We have the limitations of distance and especially time. I know what i beleive and honestly, you never need to defend me to anyone.

    Don’t want to be lumped with a bunch of knuckleheads? I know the feeling; but thats a seperate issue.

    Zephyr, i am more than happy to bear my heart to you about all this stuff; but please don’t misinterpret something i said or didn’t say to be a knock against you or what you hold dear. I think you’d find my experiences and lessons i’ve drawn from Christianity to be. . . healthy. And maybe you feel like, “That makia guy is pretty smart, but just a little mis-guided.” Well, you won’t get an arguement from me.

  268. Makia February 8, 2007 12:10 pm

    But my biggest point is that i really don’t think you understand my opinions and feelings about religion, Christianity, or Bhuddism. But i do think that i understand yours.

    I see you as being an extremely tolerant person. “Tolerant” might even be a bad word as it implies a prejudice. And you don’t see me as the same? Perhaps because of a hearsay comment i made about the former Pope? Well, i’m just sayin, man, this ain’t worth fightin’ over; but i’d be more than happy to share with you my experiences. And if you don’t care, then its no big deal at all. Who does, really? No one that i can think of, actually - ‘cept my mom maybe a little. . .

  269. muleskinner February 8, 2007 12:14 pm

    “It don’t matter to the Jesus.” - Jesus (The Big Lebowski Jesus)

    A trip to the moon on gossamer wings via the Via Appia.

    When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

    Christians lived in Rome. They worked, they owned houses, they had money, they lived as Romans. When they were discovered, they were imprisoned, everything they had was taken from them, etc. They were victims of SWAT tactics back then, much like some untermenschen here in murka have experienced. Nero blamed them when Rome burned. Scapegoats everywhere then and now.

    Randy Weaver got hosed, eh?

    Waco comes to mind. When in America, do as good Americans do so you don’t get caught. Otherwise, they’ll cut out your tongue, Grover Crosslin style.

    The McNosis helps you forget about all of that.

    All you have to do is believe.

    The Dude wrote a check for $0.69.

  270. kia February 8, 2007 12:29 pm

    Brother Zephyr,

    I apologize for presuming what your reactions will be.

    Likewise, please don’t presume what I have or haven’t read. John Paul II displayed a respect for science that is very enlightened given the long dark history of the Church, that persists today in the abuse of children in the form of Cardinal Law who now holds a Vatican position, and Cardinal Mahony who continues to elude the letter of law.

    Ratzinger, after digging up negative comments about the Muslim religion by a 16th century author ahead of his recent trip to Turkey, realized his error and met with Muslim leaders.
    Although I’m not sure what purpose he is serving by making stances against Turkey’s admission into the EU, unless one looks at the Church’s long financial role in the PTB.

    How many wars can you point to in the history of 2500 years of Buddhism that were waged on the basis of it’s dogma? How about the monotheists? The fact is the leaders of the monotheists are not contributing to world peace be they Muslims, Jews or Christians. The leader Abrahamic religions all make the same mistake of claiming a monopoly on ultimate truth. Buddhism makes so claims. I was present at a talk by the Dalai Lama when he said “if Buddhism isn’t for you, don’t worry about it”. Can you imagine the leaders of the monotheists making such a statement? I can only hope.

    The truth is that all religion is myth. Human myths have value in their teachings, but myths is not facts. Something that seems to have been lost in the wash of history.

    Science classes are for teaching science, churches are for teaching religious myths.
    Let’s leave it than way. If I remember right the US constitution guarantees separation of church and state.

    Religions have NO business dragging their teaching into the public schools. They have already been granted tax free status to do so within their churches. Likewise religions have no business proscribing health care policies such a stem cell treatment. Finally they have no business waging wars.

    Religion and God to me are to completely different topics. I am not an atheist because I do not presume to know the existence/non-existence of an entity that means so many different things to so many different people. As a agnostic I am recognizing the basic fact that myth is not fact, and some things are unknowable.

    Spirituality has all the advantages of developing one’s relationship with the unknown without any of the baggage/myth of religion. Having read your posts here I would never question your spirituality or your right to follow the religion of your choice. All my comments are directed to religions, not adherents.

    However I strongly question religion’s value relative to working out the practical problems facing the world’s populations be they energy, global warming, or partitioning the real estate in the Middle East so everyone has a homeland.

    Zappa was a master of observation, something I endeavor to be. I posted the lyrics because I think that his observations are accurate and borne out by our current circumstances that you point out in your post #259. By the way, thanks for the post.


  271. zephyr February 8, 2007 12:39 pm

    Thanks ‘Skinner…are you sure you aren’t actually dude?

    Makia, of course I see you as tolerant as well, and thank you for perceiving me to be tolerant because it is something I strive for. Actually, you just plopped yourself into something Kia said to me to which I responded. And I believe Kia to be a good person but as I’ve said before I take some things personally, this being one.

    There are many things wrong with the Abrahamic religions. Too much ill will and bloodshed, narrowmindedness and prejudice. But those are creations of man, bad, individualistic interpretations that shed a bad light on something that is initially good. Proof? Who has definative proof for anything they believe? That’s just a pissing contest. It’s faith, it’s something internal. Proof is just a word people use to get under anothers skin because in truth, nobody has definative proof Jesus DIDN’T exist. It’s just semantics.

    I’m tired….I don’t like discord….time to hike.

  272. kia February 8, 2007 12:46 pm


    As my bumpersticker says:

    “I Don’t Know and Neither Do You”

    Sorry for stirring up the discord, have a good hike, it is time for me to grab the skis and the dog and head into the forest. I look forward to sharing the Great Blue Dome with you .


  273. zephyr February 8, 2007 12:55 pm

    Saw your post, Kia…will respond when I get back from re-energizing. Funny, we seem to agree on 90% of what we say to each other. No, after looking back, it’s more like 95% or more. So where lies the discord. My core belief that religion is good but then gets hijacked by highly fallable human beings…way too much…and it pains me because it is not something that should be. If there is an Almighty, these are not things He would choose to be. This I believe in my heart.

    Who knows what ultimate truth is because there are so many of us on this earth and we all hold dear such entirely different things….who is right….who is closest to being right? I still get the sense an answer is coming, perhaps soon.

    How is that ‘Skinner….the answer, my friends, is blowing in the wind. Ha, and what’s my name….Zephyr- a gentle breeze…is there any truth to what’s blowing in my wind? I hope so….because nobody wants to believe they’re living a non-truth. I just see too much that troubles me. People referencing the same scriptures I read and yet distorting them into black things…cancerous growths in humanity…and I want nothing to do with that.

    Well, I guess I answered after all…time to hit the trails. Thanks for the cerebral stuff I was calling for yesterday…..be careful what you wish for… 8-)

  274. Makia February 8, 2007 1:01 pm

    Muleskinner, i have no problem with a plethora of Dude references. And isn’t Jackie Treehorn one of the most powerful of archtypal myths? It seems everyone knows the story of the playboy.

    “This is what happens Larry. . . when you fuck another man. . . in the ass!”

  275. Makia February 8, 2007 1:26 pm

    Zephyr, i would say this to any christian who i thought it might mean something to; take it for what its worth:

    There is a lot of internal pain involved with being Christian and confronting your beleifs in the question of of “What if I’m wrong?” From the eagle’s perspective it is easy to see a Christain’s fear of being wrong, because to a Christain there is only One thing that you need to be right about. If you agree to that, then the the best answer from the Preists is thats the only thing you need to beleive. But when a person is _wrong_ on that, well, some version of Hell, Purgatory, etc. Bottom line, it’s a rough road to be wrong according to that dogma. And the mind might think it makes all the separations between what is “important” and not, but the emotions and the ego can hardly be expected to be so mature.

    But in my “dogma”, i’m not afraid to be wrong (anymore). I’ve even grown a little more corageous in my shyness take to be bold sometimes. But you could rhetorically tear my beleif system to shreds and the most it would get me to do is reexamine and do some internal housecleaning. Weather i had a good opinion of a person or not i would listen to what they have to say; it has grown into my nature - and even that system has “pros” and “cons”.

    Some say that all the controversy over the ancient and modern Christianity proves its relevance. I would say that Christianity has certainly been influencal and important, but considering the extent of the hypocrical (i.e. dis-ingenuine) “Christian” expression throughout history, i’m not sure if i would consider the spiritual side of Christianity all that relevant. Looks to me like a ton of Western history can be explained by “my team vs. your team” and nurtured ignorance. I make the arguement that spirituality survived despite the christian churchs’ expression in history, not because of it. There have always been people who tried to get the churches to embrace its more mystical traditions, with the result tending to be arguements and ostracization from the political (and economic) arm of the “Great Faith.”

    Geez, zephyr, we know _you_ aren’t a knucklehead, but with so many knuckleheads citing their Christian churches as the origination of their bullheaded opinions, how should a critical thinking person note (or vent) this activity without upseting _your_ sensibility? You see what i’m sayin’?

  276. Makia February 8, 2007 1:45 pm

    Alright, i’m done. But zephyr, if you consider me a friend, then i just want you to take this as a friend: You can be brash and outspoken anytime you want around me, i have no problem with it, in fact i love it - but in taking offense at other’s digs on Christianity, just don’t take it personally. I mean, even if its directed at you; its not worrth getting so upset over what brings you peace, is it? And dare-i-say, no one here has really meant any insult to you.

    Y’know, i’ve got one more thought about this.

    After the SuperBowl, Dungy is up there and they ask him about the “social significance” of his win and he says, “Coach Smith and i both agree that the truly important thing is that two _Christian_ men got to the SuperBowl, doing it “The Lord’s Way.” Yes, the two men are notably religious, and notably Christian. 30 seconds later they ask Dungy about the game (recall the Bears scored on the opening kickoff) and he says, “it was rough there in the beginning but afterwards i just reminded the guys that sometimes the Lord sends you through a storm before pulling you through.”

    Now this guys is arguable one of the most respected men and respected Christians in the country right now. And i would not deny that he seems incredible soft and genuine to me. And every beleiving Christian i’m sure loves and “understands” what Tony meant by the Lord “sending you through a storm before pulling you through.” But i mean, Come On! How freaking simplistic and double-logic is that? Sure, it sounds real spiritual and Christian of him, but really, he sounds like a child to me.

    Now, i’ll admit to being childlike. See, i’ve got no problem embracing a degree of nievete - that’s room to learn and i’ve got a lot of it. But this Christian _rhetoric_ is just the kind of stuff that makes the organization essentially unpalatable to my personal outlook. I’m sure Tony and i would get along great, that’s not my point; i’m just saying to smack me anytime i use ridiculous cliche like that.

    i’m out

  277. bp February 8, 2007 2:44 pm

    zephyr #265, ouch man….my reference to sapiens was about evil, not religion - i don’t need to get rolled up in that one…but since you brought me in, let me just say that there is a lot of wisdom in all religions, it is dogma that I have trouble with, and yes that exists in all religions too - ya know how it is …pearls before swine - people will take anything and use it to the own personal ends - check this site and let me know what you think of the efforts to “save” the natives - http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/12/eliminationism-in-america-i.html

  278. bp February 8, 2007 3:15 pm

    hm, ok zephyr, you’ve peaked my interest here - maybe when you get back from your hike you can clear up some questions i had - for one I get the impression that Paul, as in the Saul that had enlightenment on the road to Damaskis, (ok so my spelling sucks), but anyway this Paul, according to my understanding was not a disciple, did not even live during Jesus’s life - is this correct

    also, some people claim he really screwed up Christianity by reinterpreting it into Roman culture - what is your opinion on that?

    personally I really like the New Testament, but I think a lot of the Old Testament was from a completely different mind set, i.e., “an eye for an eye” versus “turning the other cheek” in the New Testament - Jesus seems, to me, to have raised the ethical level a notch, but yet many Christians today seem to quote a lot from the Old Testament - I consider that back sliding — what say you???

    ok, back to Makia and Kia - I say “resist not evil” in the New Testament really means to not put a wall up to counter evil, but to do like in Akihito (sp) [a reference to martial arts] and to move out of the way and/or use the force of the evil thrust against itself, hhe - ok - so I went out on a limb — thoughts??

  279. Makia February 8, 2007 3:30 pm

    bp, i’ve got to show you some of my martial kungfu some time. The way i would “use the opponents force against him” is light years beyond the common sense of it. But a man i consider highly spiritual (and Christian) and a highly adept martial artist talks about the journey of the spiritual warrior. And he says (paraphrasing):

    “Sometimes the good arts require that we help others on their karmic paths. If one is saturated with violence and hatred and is ready for a new life, then it may be in your hands to help him get there.”

    i could go on i’m sure. . .

  280. bp February 8, 2007 4:26 pm

    Makia, kia, kia, makia - be, bo, banana - sorry just couldn’t resist that

    yeah, i agree - there is much at a higher plane that i do not pretend to know - i do know, though, that people many times hear what they want to hear, so I am reticent to say a whole lot! when we march on the PTB, you can show me what you mean - actions speak louder than words….or so i’m told!

  281. kia February 8, 2007 5:44 pm

    Zephyr, Makia and bp,

    Funny thing is the Zephyr and I do agree on 95%, and I shouldn’t be pressing his buttons on the other 5% but I do not feel personally like sitting back and watch the representatives of
    the Abrahamic religions lead the world into Armageddon, no matter how much they crave it.

    On the positive side of not having the requisite self control to sit quietly and watch the Armageddon Express driven by the True Terrorists (the NeoCons, Zionists, and Mullahs) is that it stirs up thoughtful contributions from the likes of Makia and bp, which I value.

    As far as I can tell is that the Old Testament is the Big Book of Jewish Fairy Tales. It and was lashed together in the third century AD by a group of Jewish scholars with the intent to establish a historical claim to the land, under the watchful eye of Constantine who decided to coop the Christian religion to support the Statist (that’s for you muleskinner) objectives of the Roman empire.

    The value in the Bible for me is entirely contained in the New Testament and Jesus’s message of personal salvation through a personal connection with God.

    As far as I’m concerned we can dump Leviticus and the “eye for eye” school for good. 2000 years of it has proven it to be a failed experiment. My problem with our “Christian” society is that seemly they want to preach to everyone else how to live, without bothering to internalize Jesus’s teaching in their own behavior because the believe in the Christian Exclusion clause of “being forgiven”. From the outside it appears that they have constructed a code of conduct that they hold all unbelievers to, but ignore themselves.

    Functionally this becomes “New Testament for me and those who believe exactly as I do, Old Testament for those who don’t”. This is the heart of the hypocrisy that I see all around me. That’s why it okay for us to invade Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and anywhere else someones has something we want, because God is on our side.

    Zephyr, yesterday you were crying out for meaty material and here it is, for me it a valuable exchange. However I take a different viewpoint than you. I believe that people are basically good and capable of spiritual development. I see religions as trying to push negative concepts like “everyone is a sinner and will always fall short of the glory of the lord”. I think is point of view does NOTHING to uplift the spirit or demonstrate respect for the individual human being. Thus the New vs. Old split. If our difference in viewpoint is something you take personally, I have to say that there is little to be done. I don’t take our different points of view personally because I know that it is largely illusory. You, me, Makia, bp, muleskinner and the rest of these poor sots who stoically endure my posts are all one. That’s what God means to me.

    The beauty of Buddhism for me is that it requires no belief, rather it is a code of ethics.

    1) Observe the world as accurately as you can
    2) Make you contribution through your actions.

    In the process no one (other than myself) needs to know my opinion about the unknowable.

    My sincere hope is that all humans on the planet can embrace the beauty of the Great Mystery, and let it serve as inspiration for the spiritual development of us all.

    Peace and Appreciation to You All

  282. zephyr February 8, 2007 7:16 pm

    Makia, I read your posts after we spoke. You know, again, like with Kia, I can’t argue with most of what you say. I don’t want to because I’ve made the same argument myself. I suppose my strong reaction comes from the fact that I’m a Christian but I’m very different from all these folks you guys keep referencing, that I keep referencing for that matter. And I’m glad that I am but it disturbs me that so many of these people are the face of Christianity. And I don’t ever want to be mentioned in the same breath as so many of these horrible hypocrites at worst or misguided savants at best.

    After reading your description, I almost feel more connected to Buddhism than my own religion. I don’t know….I’m just so different. I see so much beauty in Christianity but what comes out in this country and thru history has been this distorted, twisted creature. And I despise how it has been hijacked and used for evil. I see religion, Jesus’ teachings as so obvious a blueprint on how to live. So how does it get so distorted?

    That’s why I defend Pope John Paul II so vigorously. Trust me….I followed the guy for 26 years. He had it right, he really did. I know the Roman Catholic church had some bad times over the centuries and that image sticks with people no matter what now. But this guy had goodness stamped all over him. I literally cried as much when he died as when my own father did. You see, I know there aren’t that many really good people in positions of influence whether it be religion, media or politics. But this guy was a beacon of light in a bad world. Yes, he made some bad decisions, or could have been more modern in his thinking in some areas. Who doesn’t have flaws? But overall, he represented to me the goodness Christianity has in it’s potential. And I wasn’t alone in that thinking judging by the worldwide reaction to his death.

    And there are many others who do selfless charity work, devoting their lives to help others. So don’t paint the whole of Christianity or religion as ” a dead end street” or “a waste of time and will remain so”. That’s wrong, plain and simple. Every group of people has its jackasses, doesn’t mean everyone in the group is.

  283. zephyr February 8, 2007 7:45 pm

    Bp, Paul, once Saul, was never a diciple. Matter of fact, he used to persecute Christians until having a vision on the road to Damascus. He converted and was influential in the spread of Christianity. His teachings are tricky because his letters were written to specific groups of people all with unique problems specific to their time and region. Modern people try to apply his writings to modern times verbatum. Can’t be done, but people look for the easiest way out without thinking. My wife has studied early Christianity and the Bible in classes for 4 years. That’s why we are different than most Christians because we understand it’s history and influences. You need to take a 20 minute interview with someone in its entirety not in 10 second soundbites. You need to get the gist of the whole material, not pick out lines here and there for your own purposes. My neck hair raises when I hear someone start a sentence quoting chapter and verse. Those people are scary. When I hear that…..RUN!!!

    Did Paul reinterpret it into Roman culture? I don’t know, I wasn’t there. He made have made comparisons to what people already knew in their cultures. Real changes probably came much later, especially under Constantine in the 300’s. Lots of other mythology was pulled into the mix probably to make conversion easier or to make a point. Doesn’t mean it was all make believe. People don’t thrive under that kind of torture for no reason. The 12 disciples must have seen something mind-boggling and life-altering because they traveled far and wide to preach a message. Some pretty long distances for those days. You had Rome, England, Turkey, etc.

    Why do modern Christians get stuck in the old testament. Simple, it’s easier to justify their prejudices and hate. The new testament requires introspection and self-examination. Sort of like Buddhism, huh. Except, how many people do you know who want to do that? Jesus knew that too. That whole thing about taking the log from your own eye before seeking to remove the speck from your brothers. Too hard….easier to point fingers and say, “You’re the bad guy”. The old testament is more simplistic will do’s and do not’s. People being sheeple throughout history.

  284. zephyr February 8, 2007 8:07 pm

    And Kia 271, don’t assume Benedict “saw the error of his ways”. After watching his trip to Turkey, he purposely dug out that statement to make a point. First, look how a large segment of the Muslim world responded. Justified the initial criticism. Second, Bededict is looking for reciprocity. Muslims can worship freely in Christian societies but not all Muslim societies permit any other religion. No, Turkey doesn’t belong in the European union without such freedoms.

    I didn’t get where he was coming from at first but this guy is sly as an old fox.

  285. kia February 8, 2007 9:15 pm

    Zehpyr (#285),

    Oh yeah I forgot about Papal Infallibility, a hilarious concept on it’s face. Humans are fallible, sorry.

    I support you in your quest for recognizing the beauty in Christianity, which in my simple mind is contained in the New Testament.

    “Why do modern Christians get stuck in the old testament. Simple, it’s easier to justify their prejudices and hate. The new testament requires introspection and self-examination. Sort of like Buddhism, huh. Except, how many people do you know who want to do that?”

    I do it every day, and with the help of folks like yourself, Makia, bp and the rest I will continue because I appreciate your contribution to my path.

    Are your and my paths the same? No.

    Do they need to be? No.

    Can I respect you as a human being without agreeing with you, certainly unless I’m so narrow minded as to suppose that my path is the only one, like the monotheists.

    There are as many paths as there are people, the sooner the monotheists recognize that they don’t have a monopoly on truth, the better for all of us.

    But you do have to ask yourself the question, if you or I presided over a corporation and behaved like Cardinal Law or Mahony, where do you think we’d be? In a cushy job in the Vatican? I suspect that you and I would be in prison for 20 years discussing the finer points of our disagreements while sharing a metal bunk.

    I agree that Ratz is a sly old fox, the question is to what end? Employing Cardinal Law in the Vatican sends the wrong message to the rest of us who have to obey the law, not just be it. You can’t expect me to ignore the long history of the Catholic Church, just because you are different. I grant you that you are different, your understanding of early Christianity certainly must indicate that much of the religion has become completely unhinged from the teachings of it’s prophet. If Jesus returned today, I doubt that he would recognize the religion.

    Jesus, save me from your followers!

    I will work to avoid this topic in the future with you, because I’m not interested in having my comments being taken personally, nor am I interested in stirring up discord, unless it matters. In the case of the Armageddon Express, it matters. But you have to realize that I am criticizing huge multi-national corporations and the agendas they represent as part of the PTB, not yourself, so please get over taking it personally… or not. My points remain the same. They are as responsible for this current sham as much as the FED is, that is why the Vatican was cashing checks for the likes of Marc Rich when he was spurned by the rest of the international financial community while he was waiting for Clinton to pardon him.

    Enough said.


  286. Makia February 9, 2007 4:46 am

    I think you got it right, man. As far as religion goes, i am almost the definition of non-dogmatic, but inside of me i am aware of a young man who grew up in a Roman Catholic Church and loved all the solemnity and ritual and worship of a creator who is far beyond the means of what we touch and see and hear, is everywhere. That it brought all these people all over town and further together; singing the same beatiful music, praying the same dedicated prayers.

    Once i looked further than my own little town, i saw that these expressions of a community are important and healthy no matter what dogma they are practicing. I know now, what i really always knew - that God knows it is the community that is important. That a single man’s murder had so much significance? Well there’s no argueing that the story has been the reason, and sometimes scapegoat, for an enormous amount of human activity of the last couple of eons. But the metaphysical significance? Should i be sent to hell for being confused? The God i truly beleive in wouldn’t send me to eternal hell for being really confused on this point. Not if i still lived by this man Jesus’ teachings and examples by my heart.

    god bless

  287. skeptical February 9, 2007 4:51 am

    Hey all,

    I hate to jump into the religion arguement as it is obviously filled with personal opinions.

    I myself was born a Catholic but dissed it at the age of 13 because it seemed ridiculous to me. As I grew older I came to the conclusion that ALL religion was just another way to “control” the sheeple. I have gone through periods of being an atheist, agnotist, buddist, quasi-christian (yea right like being semi-pregnant), to being a new age spiritualist.

    HOWEVER, recently someone on this board posted something and pointed us to watching some videos on google. I went there and watched the videos. I was BLOWN away. To say the least I am now RETHINKING ALL of my religious beliefs (I am a truth seeker after all).

    I recommend each and everyone of you who is arguing about religion GO WATCH THESE videos. It WILL be life changing (at least for me it was).

    Go to google video and do a search on
    “Total Onslaugth 221″

    If that video peaks your interest then watch as many in the Total Onslaught series as you have the time to watch. I have watched about 20 of them.

  288. Makia February 9, 2007 5:14 am

    Skeptical, first changed you beleifs in what way? (Sorry, can’t watch the videos at work) Second, the guy on MythBusters said the other day “I reject your reality and substitute my own.” I thought that sounded a little familiar. . .

  289. bp February 9, 2007 5:34 am

    er, skeptical - I can’t find that - can you give me a URL? - sorry I’m kinda dumb about this tuff sometimes

    kia, man sometimes you make me laugh with your sense of humor, i.e., referencing muleskinner on that statist comment

    zephyr - thanks for the feedback - sometimes I think differences are so huge as they appear, if people and look closely at things - and while we are putting our cards on the table, I might as well state that I am heavily influenced by Taoism - rather old line of thinking, but it is kinda oriented to natural processes and visualization which attracts me

    but that said I did grow up in a town with a huge representation of people with Slavic and Polish roots so a lot of my friends were Catholic - I have no problem with Catholicism….just with people that are jacked up, heh

    uh, not to get too personal, but kia - where does that moniker come from - are you a doppleganger of Makia’s, not that I think you are an evil twin, heh) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppleganger

  290. bp February 9, 2007 5:40 am

    oops, skeptical - I found it - I can’t spell in my searhes! I’ll watch it and report back

  291. skeptical February 9, 2007 5:46 am

    Makia and bp and everyone else,

    First I recommend that you watch the preview first which is only 9 minutes long to get it do the following

    goto http://www.google.com

    click on video

    in the search box type in
    Total onslaught preview

    hit enter

    These videos changed my beliefs as follows:

    I now believe the Bible is valid
    I now beleive the end-time prophasies are coming about as we speak
    I beleive Jesus was god incarnate and walked this earth

    I beleive that the papalcy is the anti-christ of the bible
    I beleive that the whole word is owned and run by the pope
    I beleive we will have a one world government very very soon

    I no longer beleive in evolution
    I no longer beleive in reincarnation
    I no longer beleive in heaven or hell (although I never really beleived in hell, I did beleive in some kind of spiritual after life call it heaven)

    Ok i could go on but remember that the above beliefs come from one who previously believed that the bible was just the babbling of a bunch of ancient susperstitious lunatics.

  292. Makia February 9, 2007 6:09 am

    i’ll keep it in mind skeptical.

    i’m gonna change my handle i think. like a facelift.

  293. skeptical February 9, 2007 6:17 am


    I forgot, I got the title of my book from Mythbusters. It is not copywrited and I liked it :)

  294. bp February 9, 2007 6:23 am

    ok, skeptical - I’ll give it a shot, though, I must say, I already have some doubts about your beliefs - I shall keep an open mind, in respect to you

    oh, BTW, you mistyped the video title - Total Onslaught 221, just to help others get there

  295. skeptical February 9, 2007 6:25 am

    oppss I can’t type very well sometimes. I need to reread my postings before posting them and I don’t do that enought.


  296. zephyr February 9, 2007 6:27 am

    Kia, we could discuss this forever but there would be no point. I studied up On Buddhism last night and this morning. Interesting. Some good, some bad. Some very poignent, some very silly and egocentric. Seems Buddhism has as many denominations as Christianity. So how do you get a grip on the “core beliefs”, the “basic tenets”, when those in the group can’t even agree? As easily as I could, I’m not going to knock it, criticize it. For what? If that’s your bag, go ahead. I will say based on what I read and based on what you’ve posted, you may have a few more lives to go. Push my buttons? What would Buddha do?

    Makia, thanks. I appreciate your posts. I really do! But some of you folks are making arguments based on your interpretations of Christianity, not Christianity itself. Based on watching some Christians who don’t know their ass from their elbow. Most of whose interpretations are wrong and tainted by personal beliefs. Like any religion I would presume. You can’t make the argument mainly because you don’t know enough about it. You don’t, I guarantee you don’t. Just like I don’t know enough about Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism. You can critique individuals because you see their actions and subsequently what they say they stand for. I won’t make the same mistake of criticizing Buddhism based on how I watch some individual Buddhists and what they do with their individual faith. It wouldn’t be my place to say it’s this or that.

    So what is Christianity? I’m still learning myself. I don’t hold all the answers, or half, or a quarter of them. Neither does anybody. Judge the individual and what he/she stands for. I know and see Buddhists who say one thing and then turn around and do something entirely different. So hypocrites exist everywhere. Or could it be that we’re all just human and prone to error and emotion?

    What we have are pre-conceived notions. Papal infallibility? Yeah, that was silly as hell. That belief is gone now if you didn’t know. But on the other side we have Buddha is “the god of gods”? That sounds just as ridiculous!

    Alright, enough for now.

  297. Pono Huna February 9, 2007 6:38 am

    Maybe i’ll try this one one.

  298. zephyr February 9, 2007 6:40 am

    Oh, and lastly, do I sound like the Christians who are banging the war drums and raping kids? No! But we claim to come from the same root, Christianity, right? So, it is not the root that’s bad, it’s the branch. And a tree has many branches. Some dry up and fall down in a storm, some yield many blooms and great fruit. Same tree, same roots.

    Do with it what you will.

  299. zephyr February 9, 2007 6:43 am

    Hey, gold’s up! Whoo-hoo!! It’s the end of the world as we know it….

  300. Pono Huna February 9, 2007 6:50 am

    Right on zephyr. I don’t consider myself bhuddist for the same reason i don’t consider myself christian. I’ve taken a more gestalt approach to the combined matters of psychology/religion/spirituality/physiology. To me, each of those four approaches can describe the benefit of “Godly awareness” in its own language. Each set of concepts succeding and failing where the others may not; but taken as a gestalt the body is pretty thorough. In my mind, it is not enough to beleive what the group beleives just because they beleive it and its easier to go along (remember Jonestown). In my mind it is not enough to beleive that my mind can figure out all things, or that i can exist in a vacuum containing a perfect understanding and life (i.e. the community makes us what we are in a special way).

  301. Pono Huna February 9, 2007 6:52 am

    ps Pono Huna = the old Makia

  302. bp February 9, 2007 6:53 am

    skeptical - ouch, you sure jumped into this discussion with both feet - I want to see what zephyr has to say about this stuff - I will defer saying anything until I watch more of the video

  303. bp February 9, 2007 6:58 am

    Pono Huna - just when I was getting a handle on Makia’s point of view - now I have to remember who you are, heh

  304. zephyr February 9, 2007 7:05 am

    Thanks, Bp, for wanting to see my reaction. Initial thought? Well, I need to be fair…I only watched the first piece. But it already smacks of fundamentalist Christianity, and in my opinion, humble or not, those fuckers are the rotten branch I referenced earlier. These snakes are the ones gung-ho for war. These vipers are the ones who sow discord. These hypocrites are the ones who feel they are the sole interpreter of God’s word. They are the ones who willingly jump in the judgement seat when the gospels foremost message is not to stand in judgment of others!!!

    These are the people Kia and Makia reference when they speak of “Christianity Gone Mad!!!”

    But to be fair, I’ll watch a little more. Was that good for you bp?

  305. zephyr February 9, 2007 7:12 am

    Thanks Pono Huna! There are already too many people who as individualists think they have figured out God’s eternal word. There are too many of them and they can become dangerous because individual interpretations are subject to personal bias. I don’t advocate groupthink based on following one individuals thoughts alone. As Pono Huna has said…community.

    Sorry Skeptical, I’ve agreed with you other times but so far, that guy on the video makes my flesh crawl. He might mean well sorta….but not really.

  306. ostrich February 9, 2007 7:13 am

    skeeptical #288 - since I was 16 I have believed that organized religion of any kind is just a way tocontrol the minds of the sheeple and I still believe that. Although, now a days we have television for that. Same as big sports just a diversion to drudgery (if you have never seen the movie Rollerball with James Caan I suggest you do).
    I’ll say it again we all bleed red.
    Remember what goes around comes around.

  307. zephyr February 9, 2007 7:21 am

    Aw C’mon Ostrich, that’s way too critical and cynical. You’re going to discount all the charity that’s done through organized religion that otherwise would never have been done. That’s the old throwing the baby out with the bathwater thing. And it’s insulting because you insinuate that I’m therefore part of the sheeple and by my posts have I ever struck you as part of the sheeple?

    C’mon, you want to isolate, that’s cool. But don’t say others that don’t follow the same path are automatically sheeple.

  308. skeptical February 9, 2007 7:23 am


    I am not sure why the speaker makes your skin crawl other than he is stating things that you don’t want to hear. The video I pointed you too (221) is NOT the first one in the series so the speaker is relying upon many concepts that he established AND PROVED in his earlier talks. I took you to that one because I though it was very interesting and very timely.

    Do not judge, watch before judging.

    Most of the speakers conclusions are not conclusions at all. He quotes directly from written documents and uses WORDS out of their own mouths. I implore you to watch MORE BEFORE pooh poohing the message.

    Remember that I am SKEPTICAL (my handle here). I bought into the message because from what the speaker was SHOWING me fit in with many OTHER things I have DISCOVERED through the years from my own independant research.

  309. skeptical February 9, 2007 7:26 am


    I agree and have always felt that way also.

    I still do not beleive in organized religion OR relying on other people to determine what we should believe or how we should live.

    I do NOW however, beleive that the Bible is full of tuth and should be read and studied.

    BUT I still DON’T beleive in organized religion

  310. skeptical February 9, 2007 7:42 am

    After watching that latter part of video Total Onslaught 221 (starting around 49:28) THEN read the below article from Ron Paul and SEE that what Mr. Veith said would be happening is NOW happening in the US.

    None of Your Business!
    BY: Rep. Ron Paul, MD
    You may not have heard of the American Community Survey, but you will. The national census, which historically is taken every ten years, has expanded to quench the federal bureaucracy’s ever-growing thirst to govern every aspect of American life. The new survey, unlike the traditional census, is taken each and every year at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars. And it’s not brief. It contains 24 pages of intrusive questions concerning matters that simply are none of the government’s business, including your job, your income, your physical and emotional heath, your family status, your dwelling, and your intimate personal habits.

    The questions are both ludicrous and insulting. The survey asks, for instance, how many bathrooms you have in your house, how many miles you drive to work, how many days you were sick last year, and whether you have trouble getting up stairs. It goes on and on, mixing inane questions with highly detailed inquiries about your financial affairs. One can only imagine the countless malevolent ways our federal bureaucrats could use this information. At the very least the survey will be used to dole out pork, which is reason enough to oppose it.

    Keep in mind the survey is not voluntary, nor is the Census Bureau asking politely. Americans are legally obligated to answer, and can be fined up to $1,000 per question if they refuse!

    I introduced an amendment last week that would have eliminated funds for this intrusive survey in a spending bill, explaining on the House floor that perhaps the American people don’t appreciate being threatened by Big Brother. The amendment was met by either indifference or hostility, as most members of Congress either don’t care about or actively support government snooping into the private affairs of citizens.

    One of the worst aspects of the census is its focus on classifying people by race. When government tells us it wants information to “help” any given group, it assumes every individual who shares certain physical characteristics has the same interests, or wants the same things from government. This is an inherently racist and offensive assumption. The census, like so many federal policies and programs, inflames racism by encouraging Americans to see themselves as members of racial groups fighting each other for a share of the federal pie.

    The census also represents a form of corporate welfare, since the personal data collected on hundred of millions of Americans can be sold to private businesses. Surely business enjoys having such extensive information available from one source, but it’s hardly the duty of taxpayers to subsidize the cost of market research.

    At least the national census has its origins in the Constitution, which is more than one can say about the vast majority of programs funded by Congress. Still, Article I makes it clear that the census should be taken every ten years for the sole purpose of congressional redistricting (and apportionment of taxes, prior to the disastrous 16th amendment). This means a simple count of the number of people living in a given area, so that numerically equal congressional districts can be maintained. The founders never authorized the federal government to continuously survey the American people.

    More importantly, they never envisioned a nation where the people would roll over and submit to every government demand. The American Community Survey is patently offensive to all Americans who still embody that fundamental American virtue, namely a healthy mistrust of government. The information demanded in the new survey is none of the government’s business, and the American people should insist that Congress reject it now before it becomes entrenched.

  311. zephyr February 9, 2007 7:50 am

    I said I would watch the rest. He makes my skin crawl because I’ve heard the same schpeil before many times, and the people behind them are almost always hateful hypocrites hiding behind the bible.

    I’ll watch.

  312. Pono Huna February 9, 2007 7:56 am

    Thanks for the article skeptical.

    Eyes open, all

  313. muleskinner February 9, 2007 8:18 am

    The Ladykillers, a remake of the original and another Coen brothers movie. One fine movie.

    1285 : In Munich (Germany), a blood libel resulted in the death of most of the Jewish inhabitants. The one hundred and eighty survivors were burned alive at the synagogue.

    The real truth behind the killing of the Jews was that the local Jewish men were running around killing Catholic boys.

    The local population of Catholics forgave them, offered them an opportunity to repent and turn to Catholicism, but they refused. From there, it went down hill.

    1285: 180 Jews were burned to death in Munich, Germany, after refusing to convert to Christianity.

    Flip, flop, it never stops.

  314. kia February 9, 2007 9:04 am

    Religion is the politics of Spirituality

    Pono Huna, Zephyr.

    it IS the community that counts, otherwise why would we be tippy-typing these comments?

    bp (#290),

    My name is that of my old husky who passed on, and since I have never seen the unending unconditional love than that which emanates from dogs (I often wonder which monk transliterated Dog into God).

    I adopted her name as my own spiritual name. Her full name is Malimu Malkia which my Maasai brethren assure me means Mountain Queen in Swahili, but after years working with those loveable jokers may just as well mean “big white guy who knows nothing, and knows less every day.” Which would also be appropriate.

    I try not to believe anything, so I can prepare for everyting.


  315. ostrich February 9, 2007 11:47 am

    zephyr #308 The U.S Gov’t does a few good deeds too. I do not believe for one second you are a sheeple or you would not test and question your faith. I also do not hear you saying the minister said, the bishop said, what I hear is: the bible said, Jesus said. Remember the TV evangilist must get his 20 million? or the Lord will take him home 03/86.
    Skeptical once the Catholics get you till 6 or 7 yrs old your their’s for life. I even had to go to Catholic Secondary School.
    The main point I am making is that this board is full of people that think,question and reason and religion should not be excluded from critical thinking anymore than an inflation deflation argument. The amazing thing to me about the posters here is they all seem to be very genuine in their understanding of the fact we all bleed red.

  316. mikeck44 February 9, 2007 12:03 pm

    I too am totally discussed with organized religion. My reason is a bit different. I think the primary purpose of any group or organization that purports to have the best interest of their members in mind should be to warn their members of current and impending dangers.

    Every organized religion that I’ve come across, save one that I’ve lost track of, hardly warns at all of the biggest threat to their members. What is that threat, how about big out-of-control government financed by fiat money? Why don’t they warn of this danger, well, could it have to do with their being in bed with the tax collector for that evil?

    Just my two pre-1982 cents worth.

  317. kia February 9, 2007 12:47 pm


    You got it, tax-supported churches are NEVER going to question the government that grants them than status regardless of what danger they pose to the parishoners.

    Heavenly Bank Account by Frank Zappa

    And if these words you do not heed
    Your pocketbook just kinda might recede
    When some man comes along and
    Claims godly need
    He will clean you out right through your

    Thats right, remember there is a big
    Difference between kneeling down
    And bending over…
    Hes got twenty million dollars
    In his heavenly bank account…
    All from those chumps who was
    Born again
    Oh yeah, oh yeah

    Hes got seven limousines
    And a private plane…
    All for the use of his
    Special friends
    Oh yeah, oh yeah
    Hes got thousand-dollar suits
    And a wembley tie…
    Girls love to stroke it
    While he’s on the phone
    Oh yeah, oh yeah

    At the house of representatives
    Hes a groovy guy…
    When he gives thanks
    He is not alone…

    He is dealin
    He is really dealin
    IRS cant determine
    Where the hook is

    It is easy with the bible
    To pretend that
    You’re in show biz

    They wont get him
    They will never get him
    For the naughty stuff
    That he did

    It is best in cases like this
    To pretend that
    You are stupid

    Hes got presidential help
    All along the way

    He says the grace
    While the lawyers chew
    Oh yeah
    They sure do

    And the govenors agree to say:
    Hes a lovely man!
    He makes it easier for
    Them to screw
    All of you…
    Yes, thats true!

    cause he helps put the fear of god
    In the common man
    Snatchin up money
    Everywhere he can
    Oh yeah
    Oh yeah

    Hes got twenty million dollars
    In his heavenly bank account
    You aint got nothin, people
    You aint got nothin, people
    You aint got nothin, people
    Thank the man…oh yeah


  318. bp February 9, 2007 1:14 pm

    skeptical - how do I find other videos by Veith?

    I watched the preview and the total onslaught 221 - thought you said there were more are they out there on goggle?

  319. muleskinner February 9, 2007 1:45 pm

    Religious intolerance

    It is impossible to eliminate the bias of religious beliefs. Nothing fair about religion when fundamental, core beliefs are examined.

    One religion says this, the other one says that. You can’t work on the Sabbath. It is Verboten. ‘The cow’s in the well’ doesn’t even wash. One says you can stone somebody to death for being a ‘great sinner.’ On and on, it won’t stop. Old Adam stuff, you know, hey.

    Religion has built in bias, i.e. dogma. Iron maidens for the filthy heretics. The Mayans sacrificed 20 thousand people a year on the average for some reason or another, played basketball with severed heads. George Washington didn’t like First Nation peoples. I have read where he made riding chaps from Iroquois hides.

    If you bash the Catholics for the Inquisition, you are going to offend somebody. If you bash the Jews for being ‘money changers,’ you are accused of being anti-semitic. If you make friends with them, you become a self-loathing Jew loving goy.

    You aren’t going to win. If you bash Muslims for their beliefs, they’ll cut off your head, or, if you show sympathy for them, then you will be accused of being with the terraists.

    If you say you are an atheist, you end up like Madeline Murray O’Hare. There is no win-win situation with religion. Nobody gathers at the river.

    So, all I say is believe in a higher being, it’s that simple. If you don’t want to do that, that’s fine with me too. No strings attached. ‘To thine ownself be true’

    “The unexamined religion isn’t worth following… man”

  320. Pono Huna February 9, 2007 2:41 pm

    . . . isn’t worth following man.

  321. skeptical February 9, 2007 5:45 pm


    just do a search on google video for “total onslaught” or the professors name 3which will bring up some interesting science discussions about creation v. evolution and fossile records that support the Bible. Just search goggle video for his name - “walter j. veith”

  322. kia February 9, 2007 7:43 pm


    i’m with ya brother, say it!

  323. zephyr February 9, 2007 10:34 pm

    Ok, before I read what was posted after I left for work today, I must say this. I heard a story by a man who lived thru hurricane Katrina…and I remembered a statistic I heard. Besides public relief sources like FEMA and organizations like the Red Cross, do you know which 3 private groups were the highest givers to relief victims? Guess first, and then you have:

    1) The US Roman Catholic Church and it’s members. Ok, so you’ll argue that by sheer numbers of members, that’s not a surprise. Consider the next 2
    2) the Anglican or Episcopal Church of the US 2% of people in the US belong to the Episcopal Church
    3) Jewish people belonging to Synagogues in the US Less than 2% of the population

    Ok, so spin this negatively, I can’t wait to either hear some negative twist or worse, the sounds of silence.

    I’m tired of the unmitigated bashing of organized religion as having no inherent value.

  324. zephyr February 9, 2007 10:46 pm

    Oh, and whoever said they had Taoist tendencies, you’re really in the minority .02% of Americans.

    Kia, you definitely have some sort of chip on your shoulder. I mean, we all fall short in our various beliefs and faiths, but man, all I’m doing is trying to provide some defense of a belief. YOU are the one always on the attack to tear it down. Somehow, that doesn’t strike me as even remotely sticking to the tenets of Buddhism as I understand them.

    Makia, brother, I missed your call again as I was working…I always appreciate your comments and understanding.

  325. Pono Huna February 10, 2007 4:31 am

    1) The US Roman Catholic Church and it’s members. Ok, so you’ll argue that by sheer numbers of members, that’s not a surprise. Consider the next 2
    2) the Anglican or Episcopal Church of the US 2% of people in the US belong to the Episcopal Church
    3) Jewish people belonging to Synagogues in the US Less than 2% of the population

    . . . okay, so not _every_ thing done in the name of Jedeo-Christian religion is evil. . .

    I just want to say that when primitive thinking people get together, they’ll find a common bond with some others and do dumb shit. That is the source of the reflexive reaction against organized, dogmatic, faith-based organizations. There’s just so much room for unquestioning following and exploitation by the clever.

    And to that end, muleskinner #320 is right on. There’s no arguement that there are lots of blind followers and proud followers to these traditions that “should” be teaching self-responsibility and _humility_ in the service of God.

    But the spiritual-but-not-religious, if we are more than just reflexive contrarians, should be thoughtful when making blanket statements. Even thinking that every person right now is ready, willing, or capable of just dumping the strongest sense of community and internal strength that they have ever had, and embrace the Void of uncertainty is ignorant to the pursuit of compassion.

    Jesus taught compassion. He may have not wanted a great religion of history developed in his wake, but i also don’t beleive that he thought every one of the common folk could just abandon all thought of faith-based dogma, kick out the high-preists, and start a new. . .what? A secular society?

    I beleive a spiritual reniassance is in order, but i also see the early attempts by the “new agers.” Many, probably most, of these people are folks burned by the excess and hypocricy within the Christian churches and found some “Eastern” thoughts that “sound good.” What few ever realize is that many of the Old Books were written by men _after_ realization. They knew that they could only try their best to explain, in words, how the universe is constructed. Hundreds of modern wannabes forget the all-important steps of compassion, self-development, discipline, and time. “The gathering of chi is like adding a drop to a bucket of water every day.” This has resulted in supposedly enlightened individuals writing books and teaching seminars that to the perceptive are either rehashed judeo-christian beleifs, child-level understanding of Bhuddism, or the worst, egotistic rambling using fashionable words like “love” “energy” and “karma”

    My compassion is not lost on any of these.

    God always finds ways to encourage us to stretch our perceptions, and even reexamine what we beleive. Sometimes it is to encourage us to change, sometimes it is there to help our resolve.

    “All the paths that lead the way are winding.

    All the lights that lead the way are blinding.”


  326. Pono Huna February 10, 2007 5:19 am

    “All the paths we have to walk are winding.

    All the lights that lead the way are blinding.”

    “There are many things that I would like to say to you. . .”

    - but often i don’t know how

  327. zephyr February 10, 2007 6:22 am

    Pono Huna, thank you for your insight. Hey, unless I’ve been missing you, you are new to posting, correct? If so, welcome. Where are you from? Of course, by the name I want to guess Hawaii, but watch it be Jersey :-)

    I was hoping someone out there would at least partially back me up. Thanks, again.

  328. Dr Jane Karlsson February 10, 2007 6:30 am

    zephyr 243, I was asking whether The Sacred Spiral talks about the ‘magic DNA’ making electromagnetic fields that extend outside the body. Very important question.

    Skeptical, dammit I can’t see videos here in the science library. Do they talk about the Black Pope? That’s what some people call the Jesuit General, who is also said to be a top Freemason. Rumour has it that the Pope has to do what the Jesuit General says, and maybe that’s the origin of this idea that the Pope rules the world.

    On the other hand, the Jesuits seem to be in decline right now, and Opus Dei has taken over, at least in influence in the Vatican. zephyr, what’s your take on that?

    And also, please, on this. John Paul II wrote something in one of his Apostolic Letters (On the Christian Meaning of Human Suffering) that really freaks me out. Here it is: ‘It is obvious that pain, especially physical pain, is widespread in the animal world. But only the suffering human being knows that he is suffering and wonders why …’

    I’m a zoologist, see, and I really like animals. How can an animal be in pain and not know it’s suffering? I suspect he was misled by the scientists, who mostly believe that animals aren’t even conscious. But I still kind of think he ought to have known better. Your thoughts?

  329. skeptical February 10, 2007 7:10 am

    Dr Jane,

    Yes he talks all about the Jesuits, the black pope and papal encyclicals. He uses THEIR own documents to prove his points. You REALLY NEED to find a computer to view his work, you will understand it and find it facinating.

  330. zephyr February 10, 2007 7:15 am

    The qualifier is “and wonders why…” Obviously any creature knows it’s in pain, but I would think only humans, perhaps a couple higher primates, consider it and wonder why me, am I dying, etc. At least that’s my gist.

    As for the rest, I have no idea as to the inner workings of the Vatican. I wouldn’t even speculate who is tied to whom. Does the Vatican have influence? Of course. As much as they once did? I can’t see how. You know, I was thinking the other day, when people speak of “old money”, man, who has older money than the Vatican? So of course it buys influence. That’s why so many world leaders come to the Vatican to see the pope. I’m sure it’s not just to pay their respects. Now, the question becomes what do they do with the influence they are buying? Certainly, at times it has been bad and other times it has been good, depends who was pope at the time and who he surrounded himself with. But to you doom & gloomers, well of course it’s always been evil intent :-o

    I have to laugh. Fundamentalist churches, many of whom haven’t even been around 200 years (at least in the US), decry the Vatican for its vast influence in world affairs. Well, what the hell are they doing in the US trying to get themselves infiltrated into the federal govt to foster their agenda. How is that different? Wouldn’t it be ironic if they actually were working together?

  331. zephyr February 10, 2007 7:16 am

    Ok Skeptical, cut to the chase, what’s the Vaticans role in current affairs, what is THEIR ultimate goal?

  332. Pono Huna February 10, 2007 7:20 am

    Zephyr, its your old friend Makia. Makia and Pono are both Hawaiian words (See the link in my handle) from the Huna Principals.

    These are my coyote ways. While i’m rather verbal, somethings are most powerful when they go unsaid. Now that i said it. . . well its not the first time.

    I changed the handle for a couple of reasons.

    Also, as far as the religion/philosophy debate; my entire perspective of life i found succinctly summed up un seven words known to the polynesians as “Huna” But it is something i rarely talk about. Imagine with all of the hype about Christainity & Islam & Bhuddism a guy saying “All the answers are in these seven Hawaiian words.” Just because it is true doesn’t make the most useful thing to bring it up every chance. But then again, the observant might have noticed “makia” was contained in every single one of my posts. Now it is “pono”, with another little clue for the curious and open-minded.

    I am enamoured with the coyote teachers. It hasn’t exactly been my “style,” but i admit it is probably a far more powerful method than trying to be explicit.

  333. bp February 10, 2007 7:25 am

    heh, zephyr - Pono Huna is Makia’s new handle - hope my riff on his moniker didn’t push him to change it

  334. zephyr February 10, 2007 7:28 am

    Interesting, you shouldn’t have divulged so quickly. It’s like a writer writing under an alias. Hmmmm. Must leave for work. See you Monday morning.

  335. Pono Huna February 10, 2007 7:36 am

    I divulged it in my first couple of posts! Pay attention!

    Have a great one Zeph!

    bp, #334, i respect you a lot, but don’t go gettin’ full of yourself ;-)

  336. zephyr February 10, 2007 7:40 am

    You know, in retrospect, you did but for some reason that didn’t connect. I guess I was paying more attention to the content. I think I thought it was a new person having a goof saying he was your alter ego because he was using Hawaian as well and thought something like you….because it was you….D’OH!!!!

  337. Pono Huna February 10, 2007 7:43 am


  338. Pono Huna February 10, 2007 7:45 am

    Beleive me, i fool myself sometimes so don’t feel bad.

    Now where did i put that opinion. . .?

  339. skeptical February 10, 2007 8:04 am

    zephyr Says: “Ok Skeptical, cut to the chase, what’s the Vaticans role in current affairs, what is THEIR ultimate goal? ”

    Zephyr why won’t people take the time to watch the videos that I told you all about? You want me to summerize 30 hours of well researched and well documented information for you?

    Ok here is the bottom line for those too lazy or unable to see the videos (I know this all sounds crazy to some who are not familiar with these ideas but Mr Veith in the videos show evidence from their own mouths/hand):

    The vatican/pope is the anti-christ spoken of in the Bible. Their “plan” is to bring about a new world order - one world governement SO that they can institute their one world religion - catholoscism (sp)! They (the papalcy who worship Lucifer as their God) want to wipe out protestism and ALL protestants (like a new inquisition - hey what do you think all those detention centers are for?). DO any of you even know who the protestants were or WHAT they were protesting? [hint Rome/Vatican/Pope]. This world take over has been going on for centuries and is NOW in its final LAST DAYS (as written about in Revelations). The new world order is almost here. It will finally come about through MUCH chaos and disorder (the papal motto is Ordo Ab Chaos - Order out of Chaos). So expect MUCH chaos SOON coming to a theature near you. The Professor who did these lectures (videos) also details how Africa and what is happening there is the “mold” that will be used in the rest of the world to bring about their New World Order. He shows how in South Africa (where he lives) there is total chaos - loss of private property - wealth redistribution - loss of privacy - loss of the middle class - Crime galor! I showed you in a recent posting how this is NOW escalating in the USA where a new “American Community Survey” will be instituted very soon here and will go out to EVERYONE EVERY year. It is 25 pages in length and asks for all kinds of personal information. The reason for this survey (as shown by the video 221 part II) is so the government can CONTROL every detail of every Americans life. ALSO it is so when the shit hits the fan (very soon) if you have a 4 bedroom home but only 2 people living in your home the government can move in another family (because they lost their house in forclousure or because there are so many imigrants who cant afford housing, or some such “emergency” situation will be concocted - hey why do you think greenie blew the housing bubble so big?).

    WATCH THE VIDEOS if you care about what is happening in this world and what is ABOUT TO COME.

  340. muleskinner February 10, 2007 8:32 am

    Permanent War

    “Drinking rum from a pineapple out on Honolulu Bay…” - John Prine

  341. muleskinner February 10, 2007 8:34 am
  342. Pono Huna February 10, 2007 8:39 am

    Skeptical, you are betraying your moniker! (I know you know that, just trying to be funny.)

    Skeptical, do you beleive in the influence of chaos would have power over the influence of order? I would that the influence of chaos wipes the fuckers trying to control off the planet. Can you know the secrets of the Ninja and use them in this sense? It might be very valuable to our loved ones.

    God, assist us, we need your help.

  343. kia February 10, 2007 10:31 am

    Zephyr (#325)

    “Oh, and whoever said they had Taoist tendencies, you’re really in the minority .02% of Americans.”

    Can you tell me how this fact bears on our discussion?

    Religion is a culture’s way of trying to explain the unknowable. This is accomplished partly through the adoption or re-adoption of myths from human history.

    The only fact is that it is a Big Beautiful Mystery, Unknown and Unknowable.

    “Kia, you definitely have some sort of chip on your shoulder. I mean, we all fall short in our various beliefs and faiths, but man, all I’m doing is trying to provide some defense of a belief. YOU are the one always on the attack to tear it down. Somehow, that doesn’t strike me as even remotely sticking to the tenets of Buddhism as I understand them.”

    I will stop challenging beliefs based on religious myths when those who hold those beliefs stop trying to constrain my rights and the rights of all those who don’t share the same religious myth based beliefs. Just because those of us who are drawn to Zen or Taoism are in a minority does not translate into having our lives constrained by the beliefs of the majority.

    Separation of Church and State is the Law of the Land in the US. Religious myth based believers should keep that in mind all the rights of all people are equal. If God exists I doubt that he/she/it will be sorting us all out based on religious myths.

    As for your continued personal references to me, feel free to keep blowing them, as I regard them like a zephyr and let them go by. Please notice that I do not and will try not to make the same of you. As I see no more purpose in them than I do in judging other on the bases of religious myths. But based on your repeated personal references to me I will ask you who has the chip you refer to?

    I Don’t Know and Neither Do You. That’s the fact that we are all faced with. How we comport ourselves in the face of this fact is what defines us.

    Doubt everything, Find your own light – Buddha’s last words, in Theravada tradition


  344. bp February 10, 2007 10:53 am

    skeptical #340 - I’m working my way through those videos - can’t speed them up - just watched The Fossil Record Speaks - I always enjoy criticisms of scientific models and theories

    In the meantime, if you would do me the honor of reading this article, I would like to know your impression of it - http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

  345. kia February 10, 2007 11:31 am

    bp (#344),

    great article I wish I was so erudite.

  346. Pono Huna February 10, 2007 11:35 am

    i like it too bp. . . good light reading

  347. kia February 10, 2007 11:56 am

    Pono Huna, Makia, Coyote Teacher and who knows what else,

    Are these the principles you speak of?


    What are the seven words?

  348. skeptical February 10, 2007 12:33 pm


    I recommend you also watch the video title “Creation v. Evolution: What do the rocks reveal?”.

    As far as the article goes, its fairly pathetic. The author says “Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact…And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin’s proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.” Barrrrffff. He has a conclusion in mind, that humans evolved from apes, and now he has to figure out how that happened. Bad science.

    Then he has the audacity to say “Evolutionists have been clear about this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred.”

    Evolution is now a FACT??? Excuse me but It is STILL ONLY a theory.

    But then he states “Our confidence that evolution occurred centers…” Now his statement that evolution is a FACT has turned into “confidence” uuurrgggghhh.

    There is NO such Fact that proves evolution nor that humans evolved from apes so where does this moron come off stating that evolution is a FACT?? (moreover where did the apes come from - hummm one wonders?).

    Professor Veith shows, I think in the video you watched, that all living creatures carry tremendous potential in their DNA to display diverse characteristics. This potential shows up in different circumstances. He shows how this explains the “fruit fly” example that your evolutionist uses to PROVE that evolution is a FACT.

    Then the evolutionist agrees with Veith - “Creationists have tightened their act. They now argue that God only created “basic kinds,” and allowed for limited evolutionary meandering within them. Thus toy poodles and Great Danes come from the dog kind and moths can change color, but nature cannot convert a dog to a cat or a monkey to a man.”

    So true but somehow we are suppose to buy into the FACT that evolution can show that man came from an ape? You show me any evidence anywhere that SHOWS that man and a dog came from some common predecessor form of animal.

    Out of his 3 arguements to PROVE evolution is a FACT this (the fruit fly example) is the ONLY scientific basis to his “theory”. Bad science.

    I do not know if EITHER of the “theories” will one day prove to be correct or if a third “theory” turns out to be correct.

    If you are a Bible believer than you MUST beleive that the story of the creation as written by Moses is TRUE. I was never a Bible believer (although I am NOW begining to see MUCH truth in the Bible and am battling with myself on what I will henceforth beleive) so I never bought into the 6 day creation theory BUT I also never bought into the idea that I evolved from some slime in a mud puddle or an ape. I believe that I was created by God in his image. There is no way in hell that I will EVER buy into the “theory” that I climbed out of a pond of slime (ameba…fish…monkey…ape…man or whatever ridiculous theory they want to rely upon)

  349. kia February 10, 2007 12:33 pm

    I particularly like their “flowchart”

    Thinking-> Resultant Attitude or Behavior-> Ineffective or Effective

    No belief!

  350. muleskinner February 10, 2007 1:18 pm

    There are only scientific certainties, no facts.

    The Big Bang theory is a scientific form of ‘creationism.’

  351. bp February 10, 2007 1:57 pm

    skeptical, what I dislike about Veith’s stuff so far is that he takes things people say out of context and uses it to make his case - the reason I went to Gould’s article was because Veith used something he said in support of creationism - I vote for a third way

    another problem I had was Veith used the Mount St Helen explosion as a demonstration of how the Great Flood did a mass extinction - why can’t the fossils be caused by other volcanic explosions, if Mt St Helen created an identical situation.

    I’ll try to get to Creation vs Evolution, but think I am planning to watch The Mystic Realm of Death next, did you see it - what did you think of it?

    are you aware other religions have stories of great floods - I think the original story came from Babylon

    er, muleskinner - you been hitting the hooch again - there are no scientific certainties, just temporary models which when they have enough problems arise have to be modified — now i suppose we could get into that Clinton thing - define “certainties”, “fact” - heck I know apples fall to the ground - is that a fact or a certainty

    as for the Bible - literalism is not wise, the Bible has contradictory info between books, i.e., the books in the new testament are a case in point - those eye witness testaments were recorded years after the events and don’t match up exactly with each other - you saying they have to be absolutely, literally true???

  352. skeptical February 10, 2007 2:27 pm

    bp “I am planning to watch The Mystic Realm of Death next, did you see it - what did you think of it?”

    Yes I watched it. In it Mr Veith tries to explain what happens after death and what the “after life” are all about relying upon Biblical passages. He attempts to show that there is no Biblical basis for a belief in “heaven” or “hell” or reincarnation or spirit life.

    I found the video very interesting to say the least (since I believed in spirit life and reincarnation).

    As far “Veith used the Mount St Helen explosion as a demonstration of how the Great Flood did a mass extinction - why can’t the fossils be caused by other volcanic explosions, if Mt St Helen created an identical situation.”

    I do not recall what his point was with Mt St Helens and the great flood, but I think I remember that these fossils were all over the earth and dated to the same time period so I guess there could be a argument that there were MANY SIMULTANEOUS volcano explosions that cause these mass graves. I also remember that he said that there was a “crustecious” layer (chalk layer) over ALL areas of the world and was using that to support the great flood.

    I agree that MANY cultures worldwide have ancient great flood writings. I do beleive there could have been such, doesn’t mean I necessarily beleive in the Noah story though.

    I am aware of the contradictory passages in the Bible and the other things you state. These are reasons why I wrote the book off as being the babbling of ancient peoples. That and the belief that I have that religion is meant to control people and the Bible is the BOOK for all Christianity.

    But anyhow, I am not seeing that maybe I was throwing the baby out with the bathwater and since I have an open mind, and giving it another look.

  353. ostrich February 10, 2007 2:28 pm

    Creation vs Evolution?
    Creation vs Evolution?
    Creation vs Evolution?
    Creation vs Evolution?
    Don’t know? I Know we all bleed red and that makes us all brothers and sisters.

  354. kia February 10, 2007 2:36 pm

    muleskinner (#351),

    It is.

    Adherents of string theory postulate that zillions of the strings form together into “branes” which vibrate in time and space and that when two of these branes touch that a universe is created. Thus making the process of creation and destruction of universes continuous, a job the Hindus had previously assigned to Shiva.

    Likewise with Dark Matter, we suspect that it is there, but know very little or nothing about it.

    Examining some of these models proposed by astrophysicists sometimes I feel like I should advance the theory that the universe is contained within a golf ball and God is about to tee off… So hold on.


  355. muleskinner February 10, 2007 2:49 pm
  356. muleskinner February 10, 2007 2:51 pm
  357. bp February 10, 2007 3:29 pm

    #356, muleskinner - hm, then when an apple falls that is a fact, but to predict that apples always fall is a certainty? am I following your thinking here? or are you referring to conjecture about how things happened in the past…before recorded history?…so that to say dinosaurs existed is a certainty? ah, maybe we should just drop the whole thing, I don’t think I’m following

    that link was cool, though… my impression is that if creationist want to establish their point of view they have to come up with some testable “facts”, “certainties”, “theories”, “models” or whatever, rather than magical thinking, otherwise anyone can believe anything they want to believe…which takes me back to Bush and his “we create our own reality” stuff

  358. zephyr February 10, 2007 7:47 pm

    Kia, check out post 290…Bp said he was influenced by Taoism, that’s why I mention it. You aren’t the only person I converse with on this site.

    Lord, how many times do you throw out the word myth? Fine, let’s drop it because trying to discuss with you is getting very trying and you’re gradually getting more and more childish. So much for brother this and brother that. I guess you toss all that out the window when you get flustered or if someone doesn’t agree with all of your points of view.

    How in the hell am I constraining you? What, because I don’t agree with you 100%. All I’m trying to do is see if you’re reasonable enough to ackowledge religion has “some” value. You can’t even admit that, which I’m sorry to say shows a very closed mind. Why am I trying so hard? I don’t know, I really don’t…I guess because I find it hard to believe someone who says such flowery, wistful things about the cosmos and being wondeful to one another , can turn right around and say something so definite about religion being the big, bad boogie man in the world, and dismiss all the mindless people out there following its “myths”.

    Perhaps I should do the same, do a little research on Buddhism and mock the inconsistancies. Say that it serves no general purposes with some of it’s bizarre beliefs. It’s just as bizarre to believe in life after life after life until you get it right. So Buddhism preaches it’s all about the individual…no need for community because all a person need do is crawl inside himself staring at his own navel. Is that why religion bothers you because it seems Buddhism is just an intense desire to solve everything by oneself. Sounds anti-social.

    Skeptical, I’ll give it a try but I’ve heard this song and dance before. The pope is the anti-Christ, huh? You know, I have fundamentalists in the family and generally speaking, they’re all crackpots. My wife’s aunt kept her dying mother alive by convincing her father they would all go to hell if they didn’t put a feeding tube in an Alzheimers patient’s stomach. So they tortured her and everyone around her for another 6 months. That’s a wonderful version of Christianity you got there.

    Umm, I’ve heard others say you had some whacked out theories but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. But that’s some crazy shit you’re spewing. Oh God help us, the fundamentalist protestants are here to save the day. You mean the same fundamentalists who have only been around for 200 years or so? Oh my, what did Christianity do to survive for 1800 years before those with such insight arrived? You mean the same fundamentalists who treat the bible literally like it fell out of the sky?

    The same protestants who forced tour guides at the Grand Canyon from saying the canyons true age because it conflicts with the idea that the earth is only 6000 years old? Oh, those folks. Oh yeah, can’t wait to hear what crazy old Mr. Veith has to say, you know, the guy who looks and talks like the crazy old minister in Poltergeist II. You know…”You are going to Die!!!”

    Don’t worry Skeptical, the rapture is coming, too. Funny, that an invention of some nutbag about 150 years ago. Those damn Orthodox and Catholics and Anglicans sure were stupid. The same crazy fundamentalists who had to make up their own religious sites in Jerusalem. Why? Because the real churches already had access to the real ones so they had to make something up. Oh, can’t wait to see crazy ol’ Mr Veith.

  359. zephyr February 10, 2007 8:06 pm

    You want to talk myth, Kia? The Dalai Lamas are the manifestation of the Buddha of compassion who chose to take rebirth for the purpose of serving other human beings? What kind of horseshit is that? And you’re calling my beliefs myth. What’s that old expression about the pot calling the kettle black?

    And you know, I would never had said something like that if you hadn’t crawled up my ass and tried to provoke me whenever I share my opinions. “Feel free to keep blowing them and I regard them like a zephyr and let them go by”. Buddhism indeed! Enlightened indeed! You sure wear it really well.

    Oh, how do you sign off? Peace and love, lalalalala. If only there were some sincerity behind it.

  360. Dr Jane Karlsson February 11, 2007 5:43 am

    zephyr 331, thanks. I have to say that I have had to completely rethink my ideas about organised religion since knowing you. I grew up with a great fear of Christianity, precisely because it had no-one like you. The people I wanted to know and couldn’t find were people with your extraordinary combination of straightforwardness and subtlety, sympathy without sentimentality, and wicked humour.

    Here’s my experience of Christianity. My father was a Christian. He was told, I’m not sure by whom but I suspect ‘God’, that one of his daughters was a genius, and the other a moron. I was the moron, and was treated as such. My sister was the genius, and everything she said and did was greeted with gasps of admiration. I exaggerate, but not much. I can leave the rest to your imagination. Suffice it to say that it took me 12 years to recover, and I went to Oxford at 30.

    Now, the reason I asked about John Paul II and animals and suffering is that my father’s idea of how morons should be treated fits in really well with that. I was an animal, and however much I was hurt, it didn’t matter because I wasn’t really a conscious sentient being.

    My sister went to Oxford, consistent with her being a genius, but she didn’t do very well, and I on the other hand did, and was runner-up to the university prize in zoology. My parents were profoundly shocked, and never really recovered. Within a year they were both dead.

    My father was a high-ranking Royal Air Force officer, and was trained partly at the Air War College at Maxwell Air Force Base, Montgomery, Alabama. Maxwell is a known centre for military mind control. I suspect, but cannot prove, that what happened to me was a result of something that happened to him there. They can make you think God is speaking to you, see what I’m getting at?

    I am not, repeat not, trying to say that John Paul II was anything like my father. I think he did his best under intolerable circumstances. What I have read about the Vatican certainly qualifies as intolerable. In fact you could say John Paul II was something of a hero.

  361. skeptical February 11, 2007 5:52 am

    zephyr says “I’ve heard this song and dance before. The pope is the anti-Christ, huh? You know, I have fundamentalists in the family and generally speaking, they’re all crackpots. My wife’s aunt kept her dying mother alive by convincing her father they would all go to hell if they didn’t put a feeding tube in an Alzheimers patient’s stomach. So they tortured her and everyone around her for another 6 months. That’s a wonderful version of Christianity you got there.”

    Boy you sure got a big chip there on your shoulder. What did I do to you to deserve such a bashing? Why are you attributing YOUR crazy (crackpot) family to me? Why is it MY version of Christianity?

    Do you know anything about the Protestants or the Reformation? They ALL said that the pope was the anti-christ not me. Look up Calvins words, not mine. Look at the Popes encyclicals where HE says HE is God and that HE can and will and does CHANGE the word of God. At the very least the Pope is putting himself ABOVE God which is blastphamy.

    Now if you break down anti-christ, anti means against, Christ means well Jesus. So to be the anti-Christ would mean = against Jesus Christ. Do the Churchs’ teachings go against Jesus’s teachings? Yes or no? Did the Pope change the sabbath from the seventh day of the week as God ordained to the first day of the week? Yes or no? To do so would mean to abrogate Gods law and put yourself ABOVE God as only God or some entity greater than God could CHANGE Gods law. So does those kind of actions look to be Against Jesus who said to follow God’s law? Yes or No?

    And Oh BTW who said anything about any Rapture? Are you putting words into my mouth now?

    Grow up. Either dispute what the man has to say with EVIDENCE or argue WHY he is wrong. Dont come here bashing me and making it personal just because you have crazy family members who are fundamentalist crackpots.

    And what OTHER crazy theories do I put forth on this forum?

  362. ostrich February 11, 2007 6:19 am

    Now I know why my wife won’t let me talk about religion at parties.
    Remember the old saying its what’s on the inside that counts!

  363. bp February 11, 2007 7:03 am

    #363, ostrich - watch out, this is dangerous territory, heheh - your red blood might end up flowing - I’m staying on the side lines myself - I’m just asking questions so I can understand things better

  364. kia February 11, 2007 8:06 am

    Humans myths/fables/fairy tales have value.

    Skep, guess that puts me in the Anti-Christ Pro-Jesus camp! Thanks I’ll take it.

    Happy Sabbath Yall,


  365. kia February 11, 2007 8:09 am


    For what is it worth I am animal, so is my dog and we are going to be two happy souls out in the new snow today.

    Yippie Ya Yo.


  366. bp February 11, 2007 8:17 am

    have fun kia!

  367. kia February 11, 2007 8:30 am


    you too my friend, btw I forgot to ask you about the Tao, do you have favorite writers? I love Lao Tzu.

    Flocks of birds have flown high and away.
    A solitary drifts of clouds has gone, wandering on. And I sit along with Ching-Ting Peak, towering beyond.
    We never grow tired of each other, the mountain and I. - Li Po (d. 762)

    Skep said:

    “Grow up. Either dispute what the man has to say with EVIDENCE or argue WHY he is wrong.”

    Thanks for that I am used to having discussions based on evidence, if based on the evidence I am wrong I am more than happy to own up to it, for the selfish reason that it helps my own development.

    I am unaccustomed to have my arguments met with personal attacks, but perhaps there is something for me to learn through it, as ostrich says, maybe it is just better not to bring it up with certain individuals.

    Peace and Powder!

  368. muleskinner February 11, 2007 9:27 am

    Suffice it to say that nobody has a clue as to how we got here.

    If I were a bettin’ man, I’d say we were hatched.

    I really don’t care much for all of the theories, proofs, postulates, hypotheses, or any of those explanations that fall far short of what an answer might be.

    “Why? There is no ‘why,’ it is the ‘how.’” - Quito from Ecuador

    I worked with the native Ecuadorian on the railroad in Minnesota one summer thirty years ago. I have met people for every corner of the world. Zach from Afghanistan was the most fundamental of them all. I worked with him in a youth hostel in Seattle when I was there for a time. He had no passport, no visa, just a travel voucher given to him through the United Nations from the offices in Basel, Switzerland.

    I chose my words carefully when I spoke with Zach the Afghani. The conversation lasted about two hours long. He wanted to discuss politics and freedom. I said, “You are free, that’s all.” He couldn’t argue with me about that fact. I just hoped to avoid being run through with his cutlass down to and up to the hilt. Like I say, it is how you carry and conduct yourself in this world. Finesse plays a big role.

    Zephyr, if you want to don a pair of boxing gloves, I’ll fight ‘cha. We’ll both be laughing when it’s over. I can’t really hate anybody.

  369. kia February 11, 2007 10:52 am


    You Got It!

    I don’t know, and luckily I have lots of company because neither does anybody else, whether they are willing to own up to that fact or not, that’s the cosmic joke that faces us all and a commonality that could potentially serve in uniting us as a global community to solve the global problems before us.

    It all comes down to our individual actions which count for more than all the faith, belief, myth, fable, or fairy tale ever conceived by the human mind.

    Peace and Laughter at the Cosmic Joke.

  370. bp February 11, 2007 11:00 am

    kia, yeah I like Lao Tzu, lot of insight there - you might like this site - http://mattpaul.org/tao/te/ching.cgi?n_verse=1

    muleskinner, I’d have to agree - if the major religions can’t agree - I won’t listen to any - I will be more concerned with ethics and conduct - I have been stabbed in the back many times by so-called friends, but in looking back it is all now just humorous - I have not really been hurt afterall

  371. kia February 11, 2007 11:15 am


    Thanks for the link. Luckily I think we can all agree on ethics and conduct!

    the tao that can be told
    is not the eternal tao
    the name that can be named
    is not the eternal name

    the unnamable is the eternally real
    naming is the origin
    of all particular things

    free from desire, you realize the mystery
    caught in desire, you see only manifestations

    yet mystery and manifestations
    arise from the same source
    this source is called darkness

    darkness within darkness
    the gateway to all understanding


  372. zephyr February 11, 2007 8:29 pm

    Skeptical, other crazy theories? Oh, don’t know…there I was only quoting other people on the thread. Chip on my shoulder regarding fundamentalists…oh, yeah, damn right I’ll admit to that because I find them as a whole, secretly hateful. Full of the love of Jesus but all to willing to cast damnation on , well, pretty much everyone else. I watched the 10 minute intro and it’s the same old shit I’ve heard many, many times.

    Right, some of the popes in the past put themselves up there with God. They were wrong. But fuckin’ get over it, those times are past. Vatican still corrupt. I’m sure it is. I think Jane has it very accurate. My wife worked on a book about the papacy. Holy shit, some of the stuff in there will make your toes curl. But, please, changing the Sabbath is a horrible sin? Protestants have promoted this oil war which kills thousands of innocents. Have you checked the denominations of our last few presidents. So they’re building concentration/detention centers to imprison themselves. Uh, yeah, that makes sense.

    Kia, at least grow the balls to address 359 and 360 before calling an end to this. Maybe you have no answer because it gets to deep for you to go. C’mon myth man, tell me about the Dalai Lama. Help me understand that myth. You’re just acting like a little child now. You’re taking a superior attitude in your curt responses. Help your own development then, tell me some more about the Dalai Lama…enlighten me.

    On second thought, the more I read your posts the more I realize I might as well be talking to a stone Buddha. He just sits there with a dumb grin on his face. That pretty much sums you up…go play in the snow.

    Thanks, Jane…compliments aside, it’s nice to talk to someone of intellect. God, this makes me miss Gordo…almost.

  373. zephyr February 11, 2007 8:44 pm

    ‘Skinner, No matter how strongly I come across, I don’t hate anybody either. My strong language comes more from passion, and my upbringing, and where I live. That’s how we talk. Don’t like it, too bad. Don’t anybody preach to me about ethics.

    Talk to someone that’s spoken to me on the phone a few times…Makia….we don’t have a problem with each other. Because we have intelligent, rational discussions. And he doesn’t get pissy and childish like other posters we know.

    My mistake was letting Kia bait me. My bad….won’t happen again….I thought I was debating with a mature person….Answers like Yippie Ya Yo and Peace and Powder speak volumes as to who I’m trying to have an intelligent discussion with.

  374. kia February 11, 2007 11:32 pm


    Keep blowing on, your personal attacks add so much to the quality of the discussion.

    The first law of Buddhism is not to take anything personally, if you review my posts they are directed at the institution of organized religion.


    Get over it Get on with it, Grow up. Argue issues and save the personal attacks/judgments about people who have never met for kicking the dog or so other forum.

    Your posts speak much louder about yourself than anyone else.


  375. muleskinner February 12, 2007 3:22 am

    times were tough in 1816.

    Eighteen hundred and froze to death

  376. bill lesky February 12, 2007 4:25 am

    I have no solution and no one has.I have never been in a MAC’S AND NEVER WILL.America is a people of want and waste.What ever happens blame yourself..When times get TOUGH THE TOUGH will survive… that will be a good thing.. Silverbill..

  377. zephyr February 12, 2007 5:19 am

    Yeah, well, if someone is heavily involved in the institution of organized religion, then it is personal. Personally, I don’t care anymore. You keep talking ethics and issues but never answer my questions. I’m trying to understand your criticisms based on your beliefs. Possible you’re avoiding the answers because they might set the stage for something that conflicts with what you’ve been preaching and how you’ve been acting. That’s fine, indirectly, I have my answer.

  378. zephyr February 12, 2007 5:44 am

    Oh, and I thank everyone else for indulging my diatribe. Ask My wife, I get very passionate sometimes in my beliefs. Doesn’t mean I don’t listen to someone else. Maybe I’m wrong, but I always expect equal give and take. That means you don’t have to agree with my views but be respectful of them to some degree. When that doesn’t happen, as people continually bashed the institutions I strongly believe in (and I’m supposed to not take that personally?), I tried turning the tables to let them see what it’s like. Talk to people in their terms.

    That’s when my comments became “immature”. Seems like people didn’t like when I got personal and starting making fun of their core beliefs. OK, I got it. When you say stuff it’s OK, I just can’t do it. OK, I got that. Whew! At least now I know how to act.

    As far as the language, consider them as exclamation points. Generally I find the people most offended by choice language to live in areas where the majority hate cursing but have no problem with killing “those filthy Muslims.” Mmmm, strange world we live in. Indeed.

    Lastly, signing off with peace after after being a jackoff in your post doesn’t absolve everything you said and make it all better. Be sincere in your sign-offs. At least, that would be my advice. I’m sure that’s wrong too.

  379. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 6:31 am

    zephyr, sceptical, other Christains who read this, before i post this, i just want you to know that that this is not meant as a dig on anyone. Just some food for thought for the thoughtful and considerate.

    Criticism is important. Many avoid it, others over-do it. My take on it is: if a person says they want to go to Pittsburgh, and they are driving towards El Paso, and someone points it out, then how much of a criticism is that? Most people have a very hard time dealing with “criticism”. But in my mind, you just look around, check the sun, and say, “No, this is the right way to Pittsburgh.” or “Oh, I _was_ taking the long way.” If someone takes offense at a suggestion, it is likely because of insecurity. How hard is it to check the sun? How hard is it to admit you don’t know? How hard is it to change direction to go where you say you are going? How hard is it to say, “No, i’m going the right way.” Amazingly, people are just so darn sensitive. I’ve defined this as “attachment to ego.” The ego is the only part of you that cares weather you are “right” or “wrong”.

    I’ve got to catch up a little, the creationism vs evolution is a crazy arguement. But i wanted to tell you kia that that link is the Huna principals and the words are in the site contained in my handle:


    I’m glad you like it.

    Yes, these principals are not very close to beleifs. I think a better desription would be a “guiding philosophy.” Not very close to myths. But then again, perhaps they are farthest from the _real_ truth. Perhaps the real truth is that “God” sent his “only” son to live and be murdered, that man’s sins throughout history and eternity are “forgiven.” Perhaps that all other thoughts are meaningless, particularly because the more “sophisticated” thoughts a man has can only take him away from the _real_ truth that is put so simply in the last sentence. Perhaps all other thoughts are essentially sins, i.e., not bringing one a deeper understanding of a fact that is not very deep to begin with: “Jesus died for humanity’s sins, that’s all you got to know.”

    Pono - “truth is the measure of effectiveness.” That just clouds the water. Obviously a sin. There is only _one_ truth, and humans can’t judge effectiveness on that level.

    Makia - “energy flows where thought goes.” more mud in the water.

    Manawa - “now is the moment of power.” to the Christain the momment of power was 2000 years ago. Today (now) we just live in sin and wait.

    That, to me, is a “beleif”: To pull a thought from the article posted the other day about the evolutionist v creationists - that Jesus died for all man’s sins is not falsifiable. To me, it is a pure leap-of-faith. Of course, when you are raised to beleive it, there’s no faith involved. That may or may not come later i suppose.

    That it is so hard to beleive in is why i think many Christians dedicate their lives to convincing others by any means. By convincing themselves it is the _only_ thing to beleive, that all others should beleive it, it keeps one from those “dangerous” internal mommments of doubt.

    And what if there are good people, who harm none and steal from none, who aid the needy and take care of their family, who were not raised to beleive in the myth of salvation? Or who are so confused by the hypocrisy within the people who preach the myth that they are torn, and seek out multiple reasons for being good people?

    I don’t even see the motivation to be a good person in the salvation myth. If you only need to beleive the non-falsifiable, then you have completed the important task for your life on earth, then. . . if ridiculous isn’t the word, then i’ll just call this way of pervciving creation absurd. And keep in mind that i think my own mom is a wonderful person and a devout Catholic. And she’s not the only one i know and care about. Being Christian does not make one saved, and not being Christain does not preclude one from heaven. Everything after that you’ve gotta figure out on your own.

    Christain dogma, as it is taught, is incomplete. To round it out, one must use other sources of experience and thought. That itself goes against much of the dogma. That there are various interpretations of the Bible, and most followers beleive only in their interpretation, or their “preist’s” precludes so much growth. To the semi-conscious, this is impossible, but they ignore that they sin when they try and figure out what is already supposed to be “non-evident truth” that simply must be beleived in “on faith.”

    This is just too much to think about. Thats why i don’t think about it any more. I just live a good life. And here’s what _might_ happen, in my mind:

    I die and go to heaven. St. Pete says, “right this way,” and i follow him back to a big white room with a throne. God’s there and he says, “Pat, you did a great job. You learned your lessons about stealing and cheating and after that you did your best to encourage others, and encourage your children, to be good people who serve my creative will. In your life you were extremely patient, and while you were not perfect, i am proud of your effort.”

    “But there’s one more thing before you go and enjoy enternity. . . (Jesus enters the room, stage left) I want to introduce you to my one and only son who died for all man’s sins. (He says this with a big smile on his face, ’cause he knows that it provides the resolve i never knew in life if i would get). Now you guys can go play some ping-pong ’cause i know you have some questions for Him.”

  380. bp February 12, 2007 6:33 am

    skeptical - check this article - interesting on the problem of faith versus science - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/science/12geologist.html?hp&ex=1171342800&en=d6803b73375ee4bc&ei=5094&partner=homepage
    it’s an interesting area for me - the lines between belief and science are getting blury as to what is “real”- there are problems with science - I say that even though I have a fairly heavy science background. I think I’ll see go read Rupert Sheldrake’s “The Presence of the Past: Morphic Resonance” I think somewhere in the future both “science” and religion are going to have to give ground on what is “real” - in the meantime I hope to keep an open mind - I have that Evolution or Creation: What do the Rocks Revel up to play - wish I had more time to go through this stuff!

  381. bp February 12, 2007 6:43 am

    Pono, can I call you that? - so hard to remember the whole moniker - nice post - thanks - “blessed are the peacemakers…”, keep up the good work

  382. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 6:49 am

    If all the Christains are right i am so screwed.

  383. bp February 12, 2007 6:58 am

    heh, all the Christians don’t agree amongst themselves - which set of beliefs do you choose to be screwed by?

  384. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 6:59 am

    touchee, and don’t think i didn’t catch that ;-)

  385. kia February 12, 2007 7:20 am

    Pono Huna,

    Pono said:

    “Everything after that you’ve gotta figure out on your own”

    That the good news, you are the expert on your own life, and no one can walk your spiritual path. Judging whether others are right or wrong are a distraction as the energy of judging does not move you any farther down the path.

    Thanks for the principles, I’ll take ‘em.


    Add me to that screwed list, or course they probably still have my security profile from the “no fly” list during Inquisition and the Crusdades ;-)

    I plan to fly anyway.


  386. bp February 12, 2007 7:24 am

    heh, Pono - I didn’t intend that interpretation, but since you picked up that implication, I have to chuckle - I guess in a sense we all get to chose our own poison…yet we must chose something to guide us in our decisions - we can’t just not act, one can’t always hesitate and not make a decision - argh, procrastination thou art my nemesis, hehe

  387. kia February 12, 2007 7:25 am

    Pono Huna,

    Do you think Jesus is a southpaw?

  388. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 7:26 am

    I think its as much of a growing experience for my mom as it is for me. My life and words force her to look at her faith differently. Of course, she still has the faith. And i see her as a wonderful person who’s day-to-day life is filled with integrity and a purpose that serves the planet and the economy simultaneously. Ghandi did his thing, Jesus did his, my mom does hers, and i do mine. Many ways to serve the Creator.

    The whole creationism v. evolution thing is also absurd in my mind. It doesn’t affect my day-to-day life one little bit. I can stop the evolutionist arguement in a simple thought, “God created the universe to look old.” I can stop the creationists with one thought, “Beleiving that God created the planet to _look_ like evolution occured is pretty silly.”

    Nonetheless, what does the arguement have to do with anything relevant to my day-to-day life? How i treat others?

    I guess it is the “faith-based” people trying to poke holes in the religion of science. I don’t have a problem with that persay. And hey, maybe we didn’t come from apes. Maybe we were aliens who came from another planet. Maybe all life is for that matter. . . But the lessons provided by the ability of species to adapt are pretty valuable, even if god just spontaneously created the blueprint without actually making life go through it. . .

    But then She created the ultimate religion which says you should beleive in the way it _really_ happened, not the way it _looks_ like it happened. Then gave us the CHOICE to either beleive the somewhat obvious and logical (sin), or beleive in the sporadic and illogical (salvation), the power in the beleif being that God doesn’t HAVE to be efficient or make sense, She’s God! You’ve gotta be really EVOLVED (and listen to the Priests) to understand how powerful God is.

    Oooooo, that tricky God!

    Its like we have to beleive that we have Choice even though the universe is basically Fated out and pre-determined. I mean, its ALL about One Guy who already died. The only real choice is weather or not to beleive the unbeleivable. All the rest of the thinking we do is just missing the point. . .

    Now that i’ve really realized this i’m gonna go join a seminary. . .

  389. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 7:32 am

    thanks alot for the feedback guys.

  390. zephyr February 12, 2007 7:38 am

    Skeptical, I’m an hour and 13 minutes into A new World Order. Help me understand something- Ptotestants have voted all these “freemasons” or whatever into office. All these people they vote in are fellow protestants and proclaim all the values of Protestantism. So are they all being duped? I mean, if all these people are so anti-pope and anti-Catholic, how are they being tricked into voting in all these people that are supposedly carrying out the Vatican’s agenda?

    I’m not trying to be a wiseass on this one, I’m serious. How do you explain what seems to be a discrepancy to me.

  391. kia February 12, 2007 8:21 am


    you said in a previous thread:

    “my hunch is that science and religion will begin to merge as we move forward - hopefully for the better, especially if eastern philosophy is part of the mix - think you can already see it in quantum physics and biology theories now”

    I suspect that this convergence is part of the process that will be required to grapple with the problems that confront us.

    From the time I read Franz Capra’s “Dancing Wooly Masters” to reading about the Dalai Lama’s interest in science to aid in the exploration of consciousness I have all felt that they are complementary, not exclusionary.
    I think consciousness is one of the most interesting places for this convergence. We all know we have one, but when physiologists try to “locate” it in the body they fail.

    I suspect that is a result of the symbiosis between the brain and heart and that it is coupled with all other life through electomagnetic and quantum mechanical principals that we have yet to grasp.

    I guess the best conception I have of God is the unknowable. As a scientist and amateur methaphysician I try to understand the universe while at the same time trying to maintain a sense of humor in the face the cosmic joke of trying to know the unknowable.

    “What a Long Strange Trip it Has Been” - Robert Hunter, Grateful Dead

    Count me in as on of the Grateful Living.


  392. bp February 12, 2007 8:25 am

    #391, zephyr - I might have some insight into that - from what I read there is a point in all of these esoteric hierarchies like freemasons that the initiates have to be taught that the opposite is true - they turn the whole idealogical system on its head (kind of like the star being upside down)- say when a person reaches the 33rd degree level of the masons, too bad my dad only reached the 32nd degree level, heh - but then, following this argument there are those high up in the different institutions like the Catholic church (read Jesuits here) that are really followers of the dark side - hey, not that i believe that, but that does seem to be the argument used (more or less)

  393. bp February 12, 2007 8:29 am

    #394, kia - I agree living is an amazing trip, and I also agree with your point of view of how things are progressing - seems that changing one’s world view is a painful process sometimes - I don’t want to force anyone to look through the telescope (or take the red pill), but sometimes others get a little demanding in what I should and ought to be, do and believe, hehe

    peace brother

  394. zephyr February 12, 2007 8:30 am

    Pono Huna, since I can’t get an answer from the wise one, help me to understand the Dalai Lama. Do most Buddhists believe he is multiple reincarnations of Buddha by choice to guide people? Do you believe this? As I read it, many Buddhists do believe this. If you do, how do you compare it to the “myth” of Jesus? What do you make of the fact that of all other religious figures/leaders, Pope JP II and the Dalai Lama met some 13 times or so, more than any other.

    I am genuinely interested in trying to understand and learn more. Perhaps you can help. I don’t want to be repetitive but your fellow Buddhist won’t or can’t seem to answer these questions. I guess it was easier for him to tear down what he doesn’t believe than to explain what he purports to believe.

  395. Dr Jane Karlsson February 12, 2007 8:31 am

    Pono 380, how’s this for a heretical thought: that Jesus didn’t die so our ’sins’ would be ‘forgiven’, which is something I’ve never understood, but for a completely different reason: to show us that turning the other cheek and ‘loving your enemy’ can give you magical powers. So you can defeat death. How many people actually believe he rose from the dead? Well, I do. zephyr, your thoughts?

  396. zephyr February 12, 2007 8:36 am

    Bp 393, that sounds like a case of banging a square peg into a circular hole to fill in the holes in ones theory. Sort of like the missing link. Can’t explain it, let’s just gloss over it. I will say this Veith guy makes some interesting points. I did say I would give him a chance. Right now, he’s droning on in another page I have open. This one is called the mists of time and I’m 30 minutes in. Think I’ll have to pick another one. If you talk for 30 minutes without really saying anything, chances are you would have had a better profession in sales or in the media.

  397. zephyr February 12, 2007 8:42 am

    Doc, I definitely believe he rose from the dead. I mean, he freaked out his followers enough that they travelled the globe to preach a message. Something extreme happened. The fact that it got misconstrued and had current cultural myths woven into his story should come as no surprise. You’re theory has validity. I’ve always thought the official line fed by the church, whatever that denomination that may be, was too simplistic and left no room for other possibilities and interpretations.

  398. skeptical February 12, 2007 8:42 am

    Zephyr “I mean, if all these people are so anti-pope and anti-Catholic, how are they being tricked into voting in all these people that are supposedly carrying out the Vatican’s agenda?

    I’m not trying to be a wiseass on this one, I’m serious. How do you explain what seems to be a discrepancy to me. ”

    Because People are ignorant and brain washed. I don’t think most of the sheeple know much of anything these days. Do you really beleive people are informed? By whom have they been informed? The media, their government, of I know their 501(c)(3) (government blessed) pastor, oh yea that is where they get their information.

  399. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 8:43 am

    LOL, gimme a minute to respond zephyr. i can tell you what i think. . . and knowing me it usually involves a whole bunch of words.

  400. bp February 12, 2007 8:54 am

    397, zephyr - you seem to have a different set of videos to watch than i do - what did you search on - I searched on walter veith - i’ll try to by pass that mists of time one - guess I’m more interested in the area where science and religion meet

  401. zephyr February 12, 2007 8:59 am

    So, skeptical, what you’re saying is everyone is in on this one world plot? Even so-called protestant figures are selling out to this one world religion? I’m listening to the UN and the occult agenda now.

    It’s an interesting theory. It does seem all the major world religious leaders are “talking”. If what you say is true, the logical choice to have “one” figurehead lead everyone, I guess the favorite in that race is the pope. After all, they already once held that position once in history. Why not give it another go? They certainly have the infrastructure and resources.

    And here I was thinking it was so nice that everyone was uniting in peace and prayer. C’mon, what if these folks do have good intentions? You’re going to tell me ALL these world leaders are evil? The pope, all Imams, the Dalai Lama, Billy Graham, etc, etc. Because all these people have met over the years quite a bit. It’s all bad intentioned? Could it just be that the followers of the various faiths, generally less smart shall we say than their leaders, are a paranoid lot? Suspicious of anything different in another culture or religion?

  402. Dr Jane Karlsson February 12, 2007 9:00 am

    bp 381, have you read The Facts of Life, by Richard Milton? He says there is no evidence for the earth being 4 billion years old. I mean, none at all. It’s just a figure people thought sounded kind of plausible to explain the gaps in the fossil record. If under certain circumstances forms can change very fast, the fossil record would be consistent with a much younger earth. I mean like thousands, not even millions, of years. So he says.

  403. zephyr February 12, 2007 9:01 am

    Bp, I did the same search as you…type in walter veith in google video. There are many different topics that come up.

  404. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 9:01 am

    Dr. Jane, et al. I remember seeing a different interpretation/translation of “turning the other cheek” that showed it wasn’t about pacifism (or masochism). I just CAN’T REMEMBER what the other interpretation/translation was!

    I have lost so much of knowledge i once held in this area; so this should be considered amatuer, but i have read and seen tons of stuff about translations of the original texts and historical reference that shows that what was written back when meant something different than how we read it today. Just a matter of cultural and historical perspective.

    I never held on to or memorized the details, it was enough for me to understand the gist. But one of the things that stands out to me is the story of the good Samaritin. The thing about this story that is _often_ lost is that the Samaratins were the _Enemy_ of the Jews of that time and place. That a Samaratin would help when the Preist would not was HIGHLY PROVOCATIVE. Its not just a simple matter of a good stranger stopping to help. It is also about paying attention to who you call your enemy and why.

    To me, another very PROVOCATIVE aspect of the Jesus story is Holy Week. Who realizes that Jesus knew exactly the message he was sending when he came in the East gate on a donkey? Jesus didn’t _accidentally_ fulfill a prophecy.

    I have to go, will be back.

  405. skeptical February 12, 2007 9:03 am

    bp “skeptical - check this article - interesting on the problem of faith versus science - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/science/12geologist.html?hp&ex=1171342800&en=d6803b73375ee4bc&ei=5094&partner=homepage
    it’s an interesting area for me - the lines between belief and science are getting blury as to what is “real”- there are problems with science - I say that even though I have a fairly heavy science background.”

    Yes I read the article, interesting. You don’t usually find people willing to open their minds to “the other side”.

    I am also have a heavy science background (Major Computer Science, minor Physics). BUT even with that heavy science background I still CANNOT buy into the evolutionists arguements (maybe I needed to get more earth science progoganda pumped into my brain). I don’t know what the answer is. No one does and I believe we will never reach an answer as this, along with so much else in this COMPLEX world is just unanswerable”

  406. Dr Jane Karlsson February 12, 2007 9:06 am

    zephyr 398, wow! Love it

  407. skeptical February 12, 2007 9:08 am

    zephyr “C’mon, what if these folks do have good intentions? You’re going to tell me ALL these world leaders are evil?”

    zephyr no I do not beleive all these people are evil or that MANY of them understand the true intentions, goals, or god (lucifer) that they are worshipping. Most of these people (I beleive) are just as much ignorant of what is going on as the sheeple (and the Catholics and the protestants, and the…. ).

  408. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 9:09 am

    ps, i know these are the serious mistranslations i suggested, but they are the ones i remember.

  409. muleskinner February 12, 2007 9:12 am

    It has been suggested by Darwinists that Darwinism has become propaganda for the political animals.


  410. kia February 12, 2007 9:29 am


    I will engage you when you can leave your personal attacks behind. Until then the resources are out there to answer your questions, without having to attack me or my intelligence. Your repetitive personal attacks do nothing to further our discussion.

    I’m sure Copernicus and Kepler could lend some light to the discussion, Pono Huna told me that they are dead locked in a doubles ping-pong match with him and Jesus. But then Pono Huna is my coyote teacher…and sneaky.

    Based on my understanding of history Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed, Moses, Abraham, Lao Tzu etc. were all holy men, who have been mythologized through history.

    What remains are the interpretations by scholars of the mythological past. The books of Paul (Saul), Luke, Mark, John were written by groups of such scholars. Since they had competing interests for the editorial eye of Constantine, who made the decisions on who got included in the Bible and who didn’t there invariably was quite a lot of political wrangling, out of which the Gnostics were largely left in the cold.

    Recent work by biblical scholars suggest much different histories for Mary Magdelane and Judas than have previously ascribed. I assume that this process is inherent with the mixture of history, myth, legend, politics and human nature.

    I suspect the same process went on in constructing the I’Ching, the Tao de Ching, the Upanishads, Riga Veda and every other holy text every produced.

    Archaeologists have had no luck in turning up any evidence of such things events as the Exodus or 40 years of wandering in the desert, not a trace.

    Dating of artifacts invariably indicate that they of more recent origin that what was ascribed to them.

    Luckily we have had the benefit of modern teachers such as Ghandi, Martin Luther King,
    John Paul, and the Dalai Lama who exemplify the best of the concepts that we have inherited over the last 10,000 years of human development.

    Tenzin Gyasto, is the current and 14th Dalai Lama. Tibetan Buddhists believe that is he is the incarnation of the past Dalai Lama. Their method to find him was to search the countryside with a set of personal possessions belonging to the past Dalai Lama. Each “candidate” is exposed to a test, during which he has to correctly identify the items belonging to the previous one. The term Dalai Lama translates as Ocean of Wisdom.

    Do I believe this? I don’t know what to believe, and so try to stay clear of belief, preferring observation and action. Does reincarnation exist? Don’t know. How about virgin births, walking on water, parting the Red Sea, rising from the dead (a form of re-incarnation). Don’t know, wasn’t there to observe it.

    Its like your reply to Harrold Bloom’s quote

    “There are no verifiable facts about Jesus of Nazareth”

    You said that there were probably verifiable facts about the Buddha. To this I agree. My comments religious myths are meant to apply to ALL Religions, not just yours or mine. In the absence of verifiable facts the truth remains:

    I Don’t Know and Neither Do You.

    That is the common basis you and I share;-)

    How we comport ourselves in the face of this metaphysical inheritance and the inherent unknowablility of the cosmos is what defines our freedom.

    My observations are focused on organized religion, an are not intended to be taken personally. How you react is your choice.

    Once again, whether your believe it or not:

    Peace to You, Your Wife, and All of Us, and of course, best to your Mom in the nursing home.

  411. zephyr February 12, 2007 9:31 am

    Alright, Skeptical, here’s my thing- who’s good and who’s bad? I have a hard time believing everyone listed by Veith is a bad guy. Let me play devil’s advocate (yikes, bad term to use in this case!).

    What if some good people genuinely believe something like this is right for the times. If you have a kind and benevolant leader, which HAS happened throughout history, then you do have peace and prosperity. I still stand behind my belief John Paul II was just that, a very good man. So in that case, all would be fine…..in theory. Now here’s the problem-what happens if the next pope (assuming he’s the leader everyone agrees on, the one you say is coming) is evil. That’s why power, whether it be political or religious, should never be in one person’s hands. How much worse history has taught us, is if that one leader is BOTH political AND religious. That’s why our forefathers created seperation of church and state. They HAD seen the effects of such leaders.

    So, I think you have a situation where there are good and bad people with different agendas. And the good people are being duped? I don’t know. It’s still quite hard to grasp. I’m of the opinion the Vatican has no where near the power and influence it once had. I actually thought it had reinvented itself and left behind its corrupt and power hungry days. There have been alot of popes over 2000 years. Some were downright evil, and some were saints. I think we’ve been in a good “phase” recently. Nothing to say that can’t or won’t change.

    And some prophecy says there’s only one pope left after this one. So, is he the evil incarnate deceiver you claim, or is he Peter the Roman, who some believe with be a force of good to fight the “real” anti-Christ? And why do I feel like I’m in a Hollywood office pitching some wild new script?

  412. zephyr February 12, 2007 9:38 am

    Kia, glad to be communicating “normally” again. Wow, when we butt heads, we don’t mess around, do we? Hope it was entertaining to everyone else :-D

  413. skeptical February 12, 2007 10:10 am

    Zephry “So in that case, all would be fine…..in theory. Now here’s the problem-what happens if the next pope (assuming he’s the leader everyone agrees on, the one you say is coming) is evil. That’s why power, whether it be political or religious, should never be in one person’s hands.”

    Agreed, but that is why we should NOT have a one world government. Also let me clearify something, I am not calling ANYONE good or evil.

    If you buy Veith’s research (which seems to me to have much merit) then the “Roman Catholic Church” run by the “pope” is the anti-christ (= against christ). Does that make the “church” or the pope evil? I am not saying that. Evil to me means to intentionally hurt, kill, destroy people, and their property (like Bushwacker and his sanctioned torturist).

    If the pope and the world leaders are really using the occult and really are praying to lucifer to get/keep their power over the world, is lucifer evil? Wasn’t his “sin” that got him expelled from “heaven” that he wanted to be God? If that is so, and he has taken control of the world and now has the world worshipping him (even if most don’t know who they are worshipping), then he has succeeded in taking Gods place, right? Is that evil? Not from where I sit, but is it blasphmy? Yes. Does it displace the God the creator of man and the earth (assuming you buy into those ideas)? Yes. Is that evil? No not necessarily.

    I have pondered for years this thrust for a one world government. WHY? Why are all these nations willing to give up their sovereignty to a single world leader (oh my gawd it is bad enough that a country is run by a single man but the world??? Yikes). A friend of mine tells me it is just a natural drive of man to want to control others and take others property. Being a woman, I have a hard time understanding that. Also I have studied history and LAW intensively. I have reached the conclusion that the legal system that we live under today in this country (USA) is the ROMAN CIVIL LAW that Rome used centuries ago and NOT the common law (Gods law) that we were given when this country was born. WHY? Why did we lose our Common law (the HOW we lost it I know, but WHY we lost it I can’t figure out) and accepted in its place the Roman Civil Law (admiralty/maritime law or the law of war, conquest, and commerce). The Roman Civil Law is anti-freedom. Since we are now under the Roman Civil Law system you could argue that Rome still has power over this country. Also there is a charter that was signed in 1213 (two years before the Magna Carter) that made the english pay a tribute to the pope FOREVER. Some think that our tax system (1040s) are the tribute that is paying for this 1213 Charter. When you take just these two examples you can see that Rome STILL to this day holds sway over this country Legally and Economically. Does this mean that Veith is correct? No, but it certainly adds weight to his arguments (in my book).

  414. ostrich February 12, 2007 10:19 am

    Mcnosis, Boomers, Crash ……..How did we get to The Life of Brian?

    John Clease

  415. bp February 12, 2007 10:19 am

    hehe, very entertaining you two - now that the storm has past I’m going to work in my garden - 57 degrees here - make hay while the sun shines they say

    dr jane, haven’t read that book - is this site worth investigating?? - http://www.alternativescience.com/

    ahh come on skeptical - gotta have a little faith in things becoming a little more understandable…though right now it looks hopeless - I still have hope and faith in the future

  416. kia February 12, 2007 10:56 am

    Brother Zephyr,

    I was thinking of you (fondly of course) last night, after posting my “ITS NOT ABOUT YOU” post (I think it was my first experience with all caps, exploring my anti-e.e. cummings self) the purpose was provide EMPHASIS without resorting to personal attack, curses, or useless vitriol that only serve to retard understanding rather than promote it.

    I was watching a two CD set of “The Money Masters: How International Bankers Gained Control of America”, which I highly recommend. What made me think of you is some of the quotes from Pope Pius XI who was cautioning against the control from the “money-changers”.

    I found his comments interesting because my observation is that at this time in history religious believers of all stripes are having they faith hijacked (Christians by Neo-Cons, Jews by Zionists, and Muslims by the clerics and Mullahs) to the detriment of all not to mention the damage done to the prospects of peace.

    The unholy alliance is exemplified of the alignment of Church and State, and the myriad of financial agreements between the two. As a constitutionalist, I see no advantage to humanity through this alliance, as it religion then becomes just another lever to be used by the PTB. The churches have been co-opted by the government due to their tax-free status.

    I think that most of the violence/injustice we see are nothing more than the financier’s dream profit method. Our current adventure in Pipelinestan is the best example I can currently think of, as the only winners in the war on terror appear to be defense contractors.

    Given this observation, my action/contribution is to try to cut through all the dogma, belief, faith, opinions etc. to establish what we share. Obviously my efforts leave much to desired based upon your personal reaction, and on that basis I admit to being far from successful.

    “Art is Hard, Life is Short and Success is Very Far Off” - with apologies to someone I don’t remember (bp, where’s that red pill you promised me).

    I have had the high privilege of living with indigenous people in South America, Africa and Asia over the last 25 years, they have taught me that as humans, we all share a common nature.

    I think that the way forward is to build on our common nature to solve the global problems that face us (climate, energy, food etc.) I think the sooner that we focus on our commonalities the better, and the basic fact is that all our time and energies are limited. The only choice is how are we going to use them.

    I’m not interesting in using mine against you, me or any other human.

    The time has come to wrest the control of the world from the hands of the financiers and put it back in the hands of the 6 billion people who inhabit it. It the best path to (yeah you guessed it):


    P.S. We need to take a page from the Sadomasochists and come up with a “safe word” to avoid future head butts, if for no other reason other than respect for the other posters who have the scroll through our interactions and I doubt they are masochists.

    Do you have any good idea for our safe word.

  417. kia February 12, 2007 11:00 am


    where’s your garden, Denver?

  418. kia February 12, 2007 11:16 am

    Ostrich, the Life of Brian instructs us all how to grapple the crash:

    Cheer up, Brian. You know what they say.
    Some things in life are bad.
    They can really make you mad.
    Other things just make you swear and curse.
    When you’re chewing on life’s gristle,
    Don’t grumble. Give a whistle.
    And this’ll help things turn out for the best.

    Always look on the bright side of life.
    Always look on the light side of life.

    If life seems jolly rotten,
    There’s something you’ve forgotten,
    And that’s to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
    When you’re feeling in the dumps,
    Don’t be silly chumps.
    Just purse your lips and whistle. That’s the thing.

    Always look on the bright side of life.
    Come on!
    Always look on the right side of life,

    For life is quite absurd
    And death’s the final word.
    You must always face the curtain with a bow.
    Forget about your sin.
    Give the audience a grin.
    Enjoy it. It’s your last chance, anyhow.

    Always look on the bright side of death,
    Just before you draw your terminal breath.

    Life’s a piece of shit,
    When you look at it.
    Life’s a laugh and death’s a joke. It’s true.
    You’ll see it’s all a show.
    Keep ‘em laughing as you go.
    Just remember that the last laugh is on you.

    Always look on the bright side of life.
    Always look on the right side of life.
    Come on, Brian. Cheer up.
    Always look on the bright side of life!
    Always look on the bright side of life!
    Worse things happen at sea, you know.
    Always look on the bright side of life!
    I mean, what you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing.
    You’re going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!
    Always look on the bright side of life!
    Nothing will come from nothing. You know what they say?
    Always look on the bright side of life!
    Cheer up, you old bugger. Come on. Give us a grin. There you are. See?
    It’s the end of the film. Incidentally, this record’s available in the foyer.
    Always look on the bright side of life!
    Some of us have got to live as well, you know.
    Who do you think pays for all this rubbish?
    Always look on the bright side of life!
    They’ll never make their money back, you know. I told him.
    I said to him, ‘Bernie.’ I said, ‘They’ll never make their money back.’
    Always look on the bright side of life!

  419. bp February 12, 2007 11:35 am

    heh, kia - I think Rich is the keeper of the red pills, I’m still waiting on mine - if I get it i’ll split it with you

    my son is in Boulder, my brother in Ft. Collins, sadly my garden and myself are in NC (sorry zephyr, but I am just a transplant - grew up in PA - fate is strange)

    i have that Life of Brian - guess I need to watch it - probably be better to watch if I had that darn red pill

  420. zephyr February 12, 2007 11:36 am

    Safe word….makes me think of a relatively recent skit on SNL. Horatio Sanz is Carol. The first skit with this character dealt with safe words. Make mine popcorn.

    Skeptical, I don’t know. Obviously something is going on, like you said, why this mad rush to a one world order. I just don’t see how it will fly unless the PTB have a new 911 planned for us that will blow the doors off the first event.

    What sway does the Vatican still hold? Is it money? I did mention the other day that they are probably the very definition, the poster child for “old money”. I’ve often thought, even mentioned, I don’t think most of us will ever see money tucked away into 401k’s and the like. I believe it’s a piggybank for the elites. Whether the Vatican gets it….I don’t know….seems farfetched. Still, when they settled those recent lawsuits, some serious cash was being thrown around so obviously they have the resources.

    I still have a hard time reconciling JP II’s actions to a man with an agenda. I tend to believe what Dr. Jane said in post 361, in light of how the Vatican might be, what JP II accomplished is incredible, even miraculous. But maybe that’s why they voted him in. They knew he was a deeply spiritual man who loved to be with people. While he was traveling the world, who knows what was going on inside the walls of the Vatican. When the cats away, the mice will play. Maybe he thought he could transform things. It’s all speculation.

    But if Veith is right, it would seems no one is immune. He quotes the Dalai Lama twice, protestants, prominent Jews, all sorts of political leaders, some of which strike me as odd. Nelson Mandela was in jail for how many years? Yet, he’s on Veith’s list, along with Mikael Gorbachev, who I thought did much good. Christ, even Bono is mentioned.

    It’s been said Lucifer is an angel of light and a “tricky bastard” (well, those are my words), so that he would deceive many in the final days since he was coming as an angel of light. Would be totally scary if he ended up deceiving even the best and wisest religious and spiritual leaders. All I know is all this heavy talk has left me exhausted. Plus, if you read the prophecies, it all ends up ok anyway. Been fun all….need to rest.

  421. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 11:40 am

    I would basically consider myself Libertarian, in essense, or laizze-faire (sp?). But one day i was talking to a friend (a whiny “big-brother should be taking care of people” liberal), and i don’t even remember what we were talking about, but we were expressing frustration in out Country basically. I was probably saying something along the lines of “Its all great to give people the right to choose their society by referendum, but the majority of people i see each day - i probably wouldn’t want the society these idiots would vote for. . .”

    He said something that really struck me. He said, “Kinda makes you think that the best thing would be a benevolent dictator.”

    Its funny how the masses will choose today’s security over tomorrow’s opportunity. Its funny that people will avoid the challenging to the extent that they will put themselves in a cell to protect themselves. I think that might be whats meant by, “can’t see past the end of their nose.” I think that if Jesus taught anything, it wasn’t to hide from the challenging, the uncomfortable, or the uncertain.

    There’s a concept in sociology that posits that the basic level of a human is utilitarian, and thats where most people live. It takes courage to change. The change might prove to be a good choice, but then again. . . why risk it? Multiply that by a hundred generations and a few billion people.

  422. kia February 12, 2007 11:40 am


    I suggest we use “Makia” as our safe word since Pono Huna has moved on.

    Word from the ping-pong doubles match is the Jesus is Ambidextrous, no surprise, he probably needed to develop the capability in order to throw all the money changers out of the temple with both hands

    Now there’s a spiritual jujitsu practice that we could use in dealing with the FED.


  423. kia February 12, 2007 11:47 am

    Pono Huna,

    Well we have our dictator…now how to make him benevolent. When you are done with that ping-pong match tell Jesus to get started on that one.

    Zephyr, popcorn works for me.

    “Don’t want to walk and talk about Jesus, just want to see his face” - Rolling Stones

  424. kia February 12, 2007 11:54 am

    bp, Pono Huna,

    This is for Darwin’s B-day:


  425. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 12:12 pm

    kia, were you aware “sinister” is latin for “left-handed?” Jesus was not sinister, and i think it would be blasphemous to say that he swings both ways.

    But i can tell you all this: when Jesus plays doubles, he’s his own partner! That guy is good! Well, it helps to be able to bi-locate. I went to tell God that he cheats, but ended up just talking to Jesus anyway. Damn Holy Trinity! “We’re seperate but the same One” my ass!

  426. zephyr February 12, 2007 12:16 pm


  427. kia February 12, 2007 12:21 pm

    Ponon Huna,

    Left-handedness is associated with sinister/evil in virtually every religion, thus the push to make left handers change to right handedness.

    I guess it’s no surprise that I am left-handed and blasphemous to boot, as I sat my parents down when I was five and told them that nothing about the various Bible stories made any sense to me, and that I would not be attending church anymore.

    I tried to console them by saying that I wouldn’t hold it against them if they still believed and wanted to attend. Some things never change.

    Burn the Unbeliever!

    Sounds like it is hard to find a referee in the Trinity-Oneness thing. Does the Holy Ghost have game?

  428. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 12:38 pm

    Beleive me, playing against Jesus is like playing against three at once! He keeps insisting that it’s only one at a time, but who knows what he means. Is it the “i’m playing with two of me tied behind my back,” or is it, “it really _is_ only one. . . that are three. . . that are one. . .” Nonetheless, i’ve really been developing my game and can beat the Man every once and a while. The great thing is that he’s not a bad loser at all. I guess being hung out to dry and stabbed in the gut for the whole city to see engenders some humility.

    BTW, no refs are neccesary because no one cheats in Heaven. Its all on the Honors system. But eternity provides for some VERY long tournaments.

  429. kia February 12, 2007 12:45 pm


    where’s my paddle?

    Does this have anything to do with Blair’s Cash for Honors thing?

  430. ostrich February 12, 2007 12:54 pm

    Kia - 417 & 418 - how about in British accent “Rocks for Sale”

  431. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 1:00 pm

    Well, the winner of the Big Tournament (that’s all they call it, it _is_ 70 years long) gets bragging rights, but no cash, or honor. I mean, to win you’ve usually gotta best Ghandi, Sidharta, Santa Clause, St. Francis of Assisi, not to mention Jesus of Nazareth, Rosa Parks, and Freddie Mercury (he’s got a huge following up there); so there’s no honor in any of that. And no cash prize, who needs cash when you’ve got BRAGGING RIGHTS for beating all those losers!

  432. bp February 12, 2007 1:28 pm

    425, kia - yeah I think the real enemy is the talk-radio idiots, heh - anything to up the ratings

  433. kia February 12, 2007 2:16 pm


    The solution to the problems before us is stated by most of the bozos on this bus

    Spiritual Evolution.

    We must rise against the temptation of the lowest common denominator. We must aspire to something other than gratifying only our baser instincts by feeding ourselves crap in its myridad of forms:

    MSM, TV, sqwack radio, fast food,kiddie-porn snuff flicks, Groupthink, celebrities, polticians, flag burning, gay marriage, the Cuban Threat.

    Why stop eating the crap? Literally for our own self-preservation and sanity.

    Some of us pursue out spiritual evolution, engaging in confession to a priest who is God’s go between for them and they love every moment.

    Some of us look for it in the First Light on a Large Wave that completely occupies the Horizon with anticipation and tempted to be fearful I love exercising my courage.

    We have to become complete contrarians.

    The more Booga-booga they sell (dump out your shampoo here ma’am) the more relaxed and focused we must become.

    The more drugs the pharma industry wants to jam down your throat and throats of your children the less drugs we should take.

    The more the MSM tries to jam your head with a bunch of advertising, the more we should starve the financiers of your attentions, funds, and spirit.

    Take back your soul, leave the financiers to con someone else with easy money. Don’t but it.

    If I were the Dalai Lama I would be willing to be reincarnated 14 times, if I felt that I could guard all souls against the rapacious financiers, I’d do it.

    Right now, I’m hoping We can do it for Ourselves. It the best way forward that I have seen to defeat the world’s financiers and get our world back.

    Thanks for listening, who want’s the soapbox next?

    Right now I’ going to listen to my Brother Zephyr’s fine counsel “Go Play in The Snow”.


  434. kia February 12, 2007 2:37 pm

    Ostrich (#431),

    Can you sing a few bars for me?;-)

  435. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 3:08 pm

    We have to become complete contrarians.

    To be sure, balance needs to be re-struck.

    The Native American tribes (and other indigineous cultures) had variations of clowns who “performed” at the most solemn ceremonies. Funerals, weddings, and the like. While everyone was engaged in the serious, these ones would dress goofily and do skits/caricatures/etc during the ceremonies. It was a reminder to the tribe that within the solemn still exists the absurd and the Contrarian.

    Today’s “modern” society wants to put everything in a neat little box. Can’t be done, really - and it causes more and more stress on the populous each passing year.

    East - The Contrarians

    West - The Nurturing Mothers

    South - The War Cheifs

    North - The Hunters and Workers

    Center - The Fire of the Children, where sits the elders and the children. The children are a constant reminder, the elders have only one power, the power of veto.

  436. Pono Huna February 12, 2007 3:26 pm

    It’s like. . . useful boxes n’at.

  437. ostrich February 12, 2007 4:18 pm

    Kia 434 absolutely, every chance I get I try to explain to people they are eating, watching and believing CRAP. Some listen some don’t (30 yrs ago I did a bit too much of it) so with age comes the ability to shut F#%#& up when people don’t want to hear it.
    435 - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. there is a scene in the Life of Brian and there is going to be a public stoning and one of the characters is pushing a cart(similiar to a hot dog stand) full of rocks yelling rocks for sale, get your rocks, round ones, pointed ones……… that scene is still in the memory banks from what 28/29 yrs ago.
    maybe i should rent it for a refresher.

  438. ostrich February 12, 2007 4:23 pm

    Kia I recall you mentioning some of the mountains you climbed, is Mount Robson not the highest peak in the Cdn chain? I kinda remember my kids playing there when we were a couple of hours out of Jasper on route to the coast and over to mt. Washington on the island.

  439. Darren February 12, 2007 5:05 pm

    I just saw some amazing charts that I highly recomend checking out which makes a strong argument we are putting in a major top like that of 1929 & 1987 which formed a megaphone. I saw it @ financial sense , Major stock market tops of the past Century , Robert Mchugh

    I was also listening to Joe Granvile being intervewed by Ike Iossive. Joe stated that based on the law of parabolics the dow would see cant remember exact number but was between 8000 & 7000 within 18 months.

  440. ostrich February 12, 2007 5:27 pm

    If Volker is right then so is Granville, I’ve even seen some excellent analysis taking it as low as 6500 in that time frame and shortly thereafter a gold/dow ratio back to 1:1.

  441. kia February 12, 2007 5:38 pm


    Mt. Logan, which I climbed in the 70’s


    When adjusted for gold today’s stock market valuations are VERY close to 1929, pre-crash.

  442. Pono Huna February 13, 2007 6:30 am

    “Bring out your dead! [BONG!]“

  443. Dr Jane Karlsson February 13, 2007 6:39 am

    bp 416, thanks for that site. It has an excellent summary of another book by Milton: http://www.alternativescience.com/shattering-the-myths-of darwinism-contents.htm Please do read this, it’s absolutely wonderful.

  444. Dr Jane Karlsson February 13, 2007 6:40 am
  445. zephyr February 13, 2007 7:03 am

    Something struck me this morning. When the stock market and real estate markets have their day, the poor and lower middle class won’t be the only ones left destitute.

    Over the summer, a friend of ours brought us to a local financial seminar. This guy showed people how to pull all the equity out of your house and “safely” invest it so that it would be the best of all worlds. Your money wouldn’t be tied up or illiqued in the house, you could write off a ton of interest on your taxes (especially if you took an interest only mortgage) and if you invested in a surefire thing (we’ve all heard this before), which he showed us, you would make back a ton of money. Now, I know people who have done this. My brother is a surgeon who has made some good coin over the years, living high on the hog. Well, he isn’t anymore but he used to, but what he did was exactly that. He yanked out all the equity out of a near million dollar home and invested it. He’s always been a little greedy.

    My point is this: How many times do you think this scenario has played out throughout the country? So when real estate goes Boom!, it isn’t just the poor yucks who will lose everything. I still say it is the greatest caper in history. The elite will have stolen unbelievable amounts of moula from almost everyone.

    The more I read and see, the more I really do believe we are being returned to a situation where there is “the upper crust”, a small amount of truly rich, and the rest of the poor slobs. Doesn’t it play right into Skeptical’s creepy Mr Veith’s theories. (Sorry, Skeptical, even if he’s right on most counts, which you’ve won me over on, he’s still creepy :-) ).

    There will be unbelievable carnage. They elite will have even sacrificed some of their own as we will see many banks go under. And you think your money is secure? I repeat myself, I know, but all those 401k’s and SEP’s and pensions, will never see the light of day. That’s how you implement a one world religion and one world govt. When everyone really has nothing, who will you turn to?

    I wish I were wrong but the more I play out the scenarios the more I see this happening. Anyway, talk amongst yourselves 8-)

  446. Dr Jane Karlsson February 13, 2007 7:17 am

    zephyr 421, have you come across Father Malachi Martin? Here is an extract from his book The Keys of This Blood (p 632):

    ‘Most frighteningly for (Pope) John Paul (II), he had come up against the irremovable presence of a malign strength in his own Vatican and in certain bishops’ chanceries. It was what knowledgeable Churchmen called the ’superforce’. Rumours, always difficult to verify, tied its installation to the beginning of Pope Paul VI’s reign in 1963. Indeed Paul had alluded somberly to ‘the smoke of Satan which has entered the Sanctuary’ … an oblique reference to an enthronement ceremony by Satanists in the Vatican. Besides, the incidence of Satanic pedophilia - rites and practice - was already documented among certain bishops and priests as widely dispersed in Turin, in Italy, and South Carolina, in the United States. The cultic acts of Satanic pedophilia are considered by professionals to be the culmination of the Fallen Archangel’s rites.’

  447. zephyr February 13, 2007 7:41 am

    Thanks Jane, this allows everybody’s points to stay on line. So, listen up, the Vatican can be evil and corrupt in many respects, doesn’t neccessarily mean the pope is bad. He could still be a very good man. It’s probably alot like the presidency. When was the last time the president actually had power and control? In spite of everybody railing against Bush, we all know the man is a puppet. Business and the cultural elite call the shots in DC, we all know that.

    Why not the Vatican as well? It’s bigger than the pope. And if you have a pope try to go too far in exposing corruption, you end up like JP I….dead in a month. So what do you do after such a sudden death? Bring in a young, energetic man from ANOTHER country. Could that be the reason someone from Poland was brought in? Someone who wasn’t aware of the inner workings of the Vatican. And if this new pope hits the road immediately after his inaugeration….well, do the math.

    Maybe that’s why JP II held on so long. He knew what was to come after his death. I believe he may have tried to prevent it by installing so many cardinals. He was hoping he knew them all and could forestall the inevitable.

    But as we see, maybe the inevitable remains what it is…inevitable.

  448. zephyr February 13, 2007 7:44 am
  449. bp February 13, 2007 7:45 am

    kia you might find this interesting, as well as others - http://www.alternet.org/story/47963/

  450. Pono Huna February 13, 2007 7:56 am

    Zephyr, et al, as much as i’d like to see something different, this is exactly what i see too.

    The economy of the world right now is imaginary to an unbeleivable extent. It is completely understandable that it would get out of control in that regard - we have been conditioned to accept pieces of paper as a store of value.

    Money, we intrinsically beleive, represents something real. Even though it is only paper (or binary code), we exhange it for real things that are made of materials of the Earth. There’s very few ways that people can “enjoy” their money that doesn’t involve a product, or a service tied to products. A contrary example would be a massage, but to the average person, spending money involves exchanging something abstract (”a $20 bill is worth. . .”) for something concrete (a t.v., a bathroom repair, the cell phone bill).

    But the faith people have been taught to have has been exploited. So the abstract now just mostly turns into more abstract. For instance a derivative contract. Someone borrows money (the value is abstract and not tied to anything real; the cash doesn’t have inherent value, and borrowing it creates ledger entries that are still not tied to anything “real”) and places a bet (not concrete products involved or created. a derivative is just another piece of paper with words), and wins the bet thereby “generating” more money. But THEN someone gets PAID with that money. They take it home and buy a TV, or a car, or have their house painted (the paint and tools being the real things).

    Over time, there’s more and more and more money not tied to a real substance or product. Consumer demand and purchasing power is created far beyond the rate at which real products are/CAN POSSIBLY BE brought to market. Driving prices up. Fortuneately for the people not producing anything, they tend to make lots more money than the real production economy. They don’t notice how their willingness to be part of a system that creates money for the sake of there being more money to have is destroying the economic health of the population, starting at the bottom. Paper Money actually does need to represent something concrete, somewhere. The farther a society gets away from that truism, the less and less the paper becomes worth. There’s just too much abundant paper chasing a finite amount of goods. Furniture, can only be created so fast. Rooms can only be painted so fast.

    It seems that the elite of society know all about this. It is unbeleivable to me that the true elite are not aware of the inevitable consequence. But i’m not sure how high one needs to go in the ranks of the financial institutions and banks and gov’t to find where the ignorance stops. My guess is that many on the Boards and Committees and Think Tanks have not connected the obvious points that i made in the last paragraph. These people beleive what the people ABOVE THEM tell them. But THOSE people, at the top, whever that is, are not unaware.

    So they obviously have a choice. Lets say they want a stable economy and a healthy population. Well, they would say, “We need cycles so that efficiency is maximized. Citizens can’t just borrow money, waste it, and borrow more. There are not enough resources or high enough production to justify all of that paper money. We need to tell the banks to watch their lending. We need to tell the people that the gov’t can’t borrow infinity because it will destroy everyones jobs and retirement. We’ve got to educate the masses for the stability and health of everyone.”

    Since the opposite of that actually takes place, i’m convinced it is a war.

    The elite know that its about concrete things. What they have figured out how to do is steal ALL of the concrete stuff, with extreme protection from it being detected. They are interested in the control of the concrete things, and so they encourage us all to play the game of the abstract thing (paper money).

    I do not know what the game plan is, who all is involved, or what any of their end intentions are. What does seem obvious is that all of us have very very very little to show for the hard work that we put in every day. And that is a trend that goes back to the 50s. I don’t know how far “they” have to go, or how much we all can lose. But i do think that they do not want the masses to have access to anything they don’t control. I don’t think its as much about greed for things as it is greed for control. And it is easiest to control people who are mainly concerned with eating and little else. Many people either know they are there already, or are in denile. MANY MANY people. The whole Mortgage ATM thing is the writing on the wall that the masses have lost control of their destiny.

    All of this is compounded by the resource crunch. Again i’m not sure of the plans or end intentions, but nothing looks good in the long run for 98% of us - especially as long as they insist on clinging to the stupid game of consuming without producing. Especially as long as people cling to the stupid idea that someone who doesn’t know you or your family or your town and lives hundreds and thousands of miles away is going to do what is in _your_ best interest.

    There is hope for health, for balance, for human development - but only for the people who don’t define those things by money or technology.

    This is likely going to be a long road, all. None of this is going to be fixed. But we need to focus on how it changes for the better. That isn’t going to happen through clinging to what we are used to - especially complcency, decadence, and dependence on beuracracies.

    physical no matter what form, needs to be tied to something concrete.

  451. zephyr February 13, 2007 8:04 am

    Pono Huna, well said. Indeed!

  452. Pono Huna February 13, 2007 8:05 am

    (that last sentence is a typo. . .)

  453. mikeck44 February 13, 2007 8:08 am

    Hello All,

    This is what is now being done by We the People Foundation to save our form of government: http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2007-02-12.htm They recently added this and another petition, regarding immigration, for redress of grievances as provided for by the First Amendment.

    For anyone not familiar with this group, they are staunch defender of our Constitution. They filed the first four petitions with the government several years ago, but they were not adequately addressed and are now working their way through the court system.

    Everyone here would probably support all six petitions which are: The Petition for Redress Regarding the FEDERAL INCOME TAX, The Petition for Redress Regarding the FEDERAL RESERVE, The Petition for Redress Regarding the WAR POWERS CLAUSES, The Petition for Redress Regarding the “USA PATRIOT ACT”, The Petition for Redress Regarding IMMIGRATION, The Petition for Redress Regarding the NORTH AMERICIAN UNION.

    I urge you to check out the above link and especially the link included therein describing the North American Union.

    Bob Schulz, the founder and leader of We the People, is very well versed on our Constitution and he mentions the Magna Carta several times so maybe common law is not totally dead after all. In fact, his primary objective is to determine whether or nor our Constitution is dead, via these petitions for redress.

  454. zephyr February 13, 2007 8:11 am

    454, well in that case I take away the “indeed” part. Still well said, though.


  455. Pono Huna February 13, 2007 8:24 am


  456. Pono Huna February 13, 2007 8:28 am

    Thanks mikeck44.

  457. kia February 13, 2007 8:34 am

    “Power is the Ultimate Aphrodisiac” - Henry Kissinger

  458. zephyr February 13, 2007 8:34 am

    I’ll tell ya another thing that truly disturbs me….most of the people in the country are still in full-out patriotic mode. I listen to WFAN radio coming out of NY. It’s primarily sports but they also carry Imus in the Morning. Anyway the topic came up regarding a baseball player who had been ignoring the playing of America the Beautiful in NY during the 7th inning stretch. Well, all the calls coming in berate the guy with talk of “such disrespect in time of war” and “I would never turn my back on the anthem”.

    Nearly everybody says that’s why this country is great, that you have the right to do something like that, BUT HOW DARE YOU DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT!!! Even the radio host shows no balls by agreeing verbatum with every caller. For what it’s worth I tried calling in but kept getting a busy signal.

    So, the public is still buying this whole thing hook, line and sinker. Funny thing is that most of the people are against the war now, but you still better not protest it. So, indeed we are in for the long hall as the PTB continue to fleece the people. Maybe the people will never wake up. They’ll fold right into whatever the govt tells them, even if it be this one world thing.

  459. Pono Huna February 13, 2007 9:07 am

    I think that the word is “castrated” or “impotent” zephyr. Somebody in here made a comment in the last day or so about the “opiate” of the masses. Its pretty hard to argue that the main stream society isn’t a bunch of addicts, hopelessly catering to the dealer.

    One should only think of the Opium Wars of China to see how it goes down. I can’t stress enough how much of a parallel i see there.

    Speaking of which, i recommended “Fearless,” Jet Li’s newest (and last) movie. Y’all should check it out. It speaks to where an entire society can become addicts like this, the results, and the solution.

  460. kia February 13, 2007 9:28 am

    Dear All,

    bp (#450) provided us with a fine link: http://www.alternet.org/story/47963/

    In his book Collapse, Jared Diamond puts forth five factors that have led to collapse — human environmental impacts, climate change, the behavior of your enemies, the behavior of your friends and how you respond. Societies that survive practice long-term thinking and are willing and flexible enough to change their values when they no longer serve them.

    Let’s briefly look at each one:

    1) At the dawn of oil (1850s) we had 1 billion people, currently we have over 6 billion, by 2050 the population is projected to be 9 billion. It doesn’t take much to see a pattern of increasing human impact. However once the oil is gone, humans are going to start feeling of the impact of resource scarcity. Be it oil, water, energy etc.

    2) Climate Change, regardless of the cause is on the march, most remarkably when Al Gore first was giving his slideshow the North Sea ice cap was in excess of 10 feet thick. Recent data show it has shrunk to 3 feet, with projection of open ocean by 2050. The albedo of snow is near .98 (98% of the solar energy is reflected) the open ocean’s albedo is in the range of 0.01-0.2. One the cap melts a HUGE non-linear switch in the Earth’s energy budget will be thrown. Most recently the largest portion of this ice cap has broken in half mystifying the scientists atop it.

    3) Our foreign policy in the Middle East and throughout the world is based on extracting resources for the benefit of our multinational corporations mostly to the detriment of the citizens of those countries. The rise of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, Rafael Correa in Ecuador and Evo Morales in Bolivia suggest that the world may be tiring of our “business as usual”. This is also evidenced in countries around the world paying off their IMF debts to get out the door of the US’s “company store” debt slavery.

    4) Our “friends” in the Axis of Agression the UK and Israel are the only ones foolish enough to support our unilateral attempt to impress our “democracy” which is a really a functioning “corporacracy” on the rest in the world in the dream of Pipelinestan and the rise of the Fourth Reich.

    5) Our response, 30+ years after the Energy Crisis, the Vietnam War, and Watergate, has been to continue on in blissful ignorance of the non-sustainability of our approach.

    Given the state of those five key criterion, the question is will we be able to practice long-term thinking and become flexible enough to change our values?

    My prediction is that the American’s will exhaust EVERY other direction, before taking the right path, given our prediliction toward, waste, abuse of the majority for the benefit of the minority, ability to ignore the well-being rest of planet’s inhabitants (human and non-human) for our own comfort/convenience and greed.

    The fact is that fear is more powerful than greed. So I suggest planning for insecurity caused by the non-linear interaction of these coming convergence of the wave fronts mentioned above, which are a direct result of the “American” way of life.

    Surf’s Up Kids, Grab Your Boards.

  461. muleskinner February 13, 2007 9:37 am

    Fixer upper that maybe needs some work, but might be worth it.

    Add a few windows, a couple of doors, and, voila, a new look.

    Move away some of the stones, it will maybe have some potential.

  462. zephyr February 13, 2007 10:01 am

    You crack me up, ‘Skinner. You’re like the Steven Wright of the board.

    I’ve always wondered why Britain stuck so close to our side. I understand Israel but Britain eluded me. Now I realize the answer is so obvious. They were the superpower before the US. They’ve never lost that thirst for power, which they had for so long. It’s like Malcolm McDowell in Star Trek: Generations…he needed to get back to his nexus. As Kia said, or Kissinger (evil Prick! Oops, did I think that or did I type it….D’Oh! ), power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. I suppose so.

  463. kia February 13, 2007 10:13 am

    For All you interested in the Science/Religion discussion, here’s Carl Sagan from beyond the grave:


    Near the end of his book, Dr. Sagan parses the difference between belief and science this way: “I think if we ever reach the point where we think we thoroughly understand who we are and where we came from, we will have failed.”

    The search for who we are does not lead to complacency or arrogance, he explains. “It goes with a courageous intent to greet the universe as it really is, not to foist our emotional predispositions on it but to courageously accept what our explorations tell us.”

    Dr. Sagan was many things, but shrill was not one of them.

    The last word may as well go to Dr. Dawkins himself, who in a 1996 book nominated Dr. Sagan as the ideal spokesman for Earth. In a blurb for the new book, Dr. Dawkins said that the astronomer was more than religious, having left behind the priests and mullahs.

    “He left them behind, because he had so much more to be religious about,” Dr. Dawkins wrote. “They have their Bronze Age myths, medieval superstitions and childish wishful thinking. He had the universe.”


  464. kia February 13, 2007 10:24 am

    If you’re not familiar with the works of Steven Wright, he’s the famous erudite scientist who once said: “I woke up one morning and all of my stuff had been stolen… and replaced by exact duplicates!” His mind tends to see things a bit differently from the rest of us mortals. Here are some of his gems:
    1- I’d kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.
    2- Borrow money from pessimists - they don’t expect it back.
    3- Half the people you know are below average.
    4- 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
    5- 42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
    6- A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good.
    7- A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.
    8- If you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain.
    9- All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand.
    10- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
    11- I almost had a psychic girlfriend, but she left me before we met.
    12- OK, so what’s the speed of dark?
    13- How do you tell when you’re out of invisible ink?
    14- If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.
    15- Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.
    16- When everything is coming your way, you’re in the wrong lane.
    17- Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
    18- Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now.
    19- I intend to live forever; so far, so good.
    20- If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
    21- Eagles may soar, but weasels don’t get sucked into jet engines.
    22- What happens if you get scared half to death twice?
    23- My mechanic told me, “I couldn’t repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder.”
    24- Why do psychics have to ask you for your name?
    25- If at first you don’t succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
    26- A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.
    27- Experience is something you don’t get until just after you need it.
    28- The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread.
    29- To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research.
    30- The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.
    31- The sooner you fall behind, the more time you’ll have to catch up.
    32- The colder the x-ray table, the more of your body is required to be on it.
    33- Everyone has a photographic memory; some just don’t have film.
    34- If your car could travel at the speed of light, would your headlights work?

    Peace and Laughter

  465. mikeck44 February 13, 2007 12:03 pm

    Gems indeed, thanks!

  466. mikeck44 February 13, 2007 12:34 pm

    The Cooling World - Newsweek, April 28, 1975 “There are ominious signs that the earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically, and that these changes may protend a drastic decline in food production-with serious …” http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/pdf/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf

    I thought that somewhere in my memory banks lurked something about this. I guess this speaks volumes about long range forecasts.

  467. Pono Huna February 13, 2007 1:06 pm

    mikeck44, et al, fear is all of our biggest enemy - its not a stretch to say thats whats got us in the mess and confusion to begin with.

    this is a major part of the spiritual renewal that needs addressed

    no matter what _appears_ to be threatening, the power of human consiousness can move mountains - fear will make that mountain fall right on you

    beleive it

  468. mikeck44 February 13, 2007 4:07 pm

    Pono, right on. See this piece about pressure/fear being put on scientists who question the conventional wisdom. http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

    An excerpt, “No doubt passive acceptance yields less stress, fewer personal attacks and makes career progress easier. What I have experienced in my personal life during the last years makes me understand why most people choose not to speak out; job security and fear of reprisals. Even in University, where free speech and challenge to prevailing wisdoms are supposedly encouraged, academics remain silent.”

    Another good example is the HIV causes AIDS theory. Did Robert Gallo publish a paper that proved HIV caused AIDS before his 1984 announcement? The last time I checked, no one had collected the $10,000 reward offered to anyone who could produce said paper; however, we know what happens to anyone who questions that conventional wisdom.

  469. kia February 13, 2007 4:11 pm


    conventional wisdom is an oxymoron and does not exist

    speak your truth

  470. Darren February 13, 2007 4:24 pm

    Pono Huna

    Without fear man could not survive. Mans mind is so constituted he can not keep all his knowledge in his focal awareness. Yet in order to survive he must some means of trigering instantaneous appraisals from his subconscious in response to his perceptions of the situations he encounters.If for example , while crossing a street, a pedestrian percieves a truck careening @ breakneck speed in his direction, rather then carrying out a conscious thought process, his subconscious instantaneously assesses the gravity of the situation & he responds automatically by lunging to safety. Prviding the conscious mind with lightning like appraisals, while bypassing any, lengthy thought process, is the function of emotions.

    Emotions are automatized value-responses issuing from the subcoscious which , within the context of an individual knowledge is “for him” or “against him” The motivational function of emotions is evidanced by the fact every emotion has a kinestic element , or component, experienced as an impetus to engage in some action related to the particular emotion involved. Love for example, is an emotional response to that which one values most highly;it prompts one to act to achieve contact or to gain possession of that value. Fear, on the other hand , is an emotional response to that which threatens ones values, & prompts one to avoid that which arouses the fear.

    I appriciate fear i.e., since I value life so I do not speed on icy roads out of fear.

    Theoretical knowledge is not the exclusive domain of ivory tower intellects, but is in fact, a crucial necessity of mans proper survival. Every bit of your mental contents is derived from some theory, & your succes & happiness hinge on weather true or false, good or evil.

  471. mikeck44 February 14, 2007 6:07 am

    Darren, Fear properly placed is indeed a good and necessary emotion. Using fear to increase the power of government and rape the people is not a good use of fear. i.e. Promoting global cooling in the mid 70’s and using fear to quite rational, never mind correct, descent, or using fear to suppress alternatives to modern medicine.

    I know some otherwise rational people who, since 9/11, have bowed down and worshiped big government while their freedoms have been stripped away and thousands killed in their name. I also know some otherwise good people who think it is okay for the government to destroy other countries for whatever bogus reason they care to put forth and then accept, “mistakes were made”, as justification. Will they someday soon accept martial law or a dictatorship as necessary for our “protection” from some created or imagined fear?

    Roosevelt was wrong; fear was not the only thing the people at that time had to fear. They would have been better served to fear him, or rather his policies.

    Kia, Yeah, I forgot the quotes.

  472. zephyr February 14, 2007 8:25 am

    So, Bush is speaking on national TV. Anyone want to start a pool where we all try to pick the start date for an attack on Iran? I’ll go first, I pick March 21st of this year. Anybody else think we’re watching WW III unfold. Anybody ever think it would have been the US that started it?

  473. ostrich February 14, 2007 9:10 am

    WWIII started when they went into Iraq they just don’t know it. I pray they don’t go into Iran but if I’m guessing man they will prey Mar 31st.

  474. kia February 14, 2007 9:17 am

    Zeph, Ostrich,

    Looking at this:


    I think they might get blue balls waiting to unload the NeoCon gift of destruction and mayhem.

  475. muleskinner February 14, 2007 9:58 am
  476. kia February 14, 2007 10:19 am


    Soldiers Back From War Fight Different Battle

    POSTED: 4:20 pm EST February 13, 2007
    UPDATED: 5:54 pm EST February 13, 2007

    PITTSBURGH — Soldiers who were paralyzed, suffered brain damage and lost limbs owe the government enlistment bonus money.

    They must pay the money back because they didn’t fulfill their tour of duty.

    Bob Truska, who was in the Navy, got an honorable discharge for what the Navy calls a personality disorder.

    One year later, he got a bill for more than $3,000, part of his $7,000 enlistment bonus.

    Bob said, “I didn’t know of anything I had to pay back after I got out of the military.”

    The Navy said his honorable discharge “does not exempt him from recoupement of the unearned enlistment bonus, and his personality disorder is not a disability but could interfere with assignment or performance of duty.”

    According to the Defense Finance and Accounting Service, each month from October 2005 through October of 2006, at least 600 members of the military and as many as 1,100 have owed bonus debts totaling anywhere from $2.5 million dollars each month to $4 million.

    The money comes from skyrocketing enlistment and re-enlistment bonuses being offered to lure recruits and keep experienced troops in uniform.

    Just this past year, the Army doubled its top bonus from $20,000 to $40,000.

  477. bp February 14, 2007 11:35 am

    #473, zephyr - I pick March 19th - that’s the new moon, or April 2nd a full moon - which will they need to do bombing runs - the 2nd would be ironic as it is Passover

  478. kia February 14, 2007 12:14 pm


    I think April Fool’s Day might be the most propicious date for such a fool’s errand


  479. mikeck44 February 14, 2007 1:59 pm

    Kia - 478 As I read somewhere recently, it is a good thing the French showed us how to use the guillotine, all we need do is remove the rust and apply grease. I’m sure there will be plenty of volunteers to do the drop. Government stupidity never ceases to amaze me.

    Ostrich - 475 Agreed. Now, does the FED cause revolution in Russia by inflating too slowly or in China by inflating too fast. Not good choices. Time will tell.

    Zephyr – 474 I’m going out on a limb here, but I don’t think we will “attack” Iran. We will “respond” to an attack on our fleet in “our section” in the Persian Gulf.

  480. kia February 14, 2007 2:38 pm


    and Rupert Murdock will put in on PPV on FOX,

    “EXECUTION the ultimate reality show thrill”

    Bread and Circus Anyone?

  481. ostrich February 14, 2007 5:45 pm

    kia 481 - got back from the neighbours too much red wine and shoveled 36″ of snow today in 60kph winds but as sick as your post makes me you are probably right. Maybe they can connect the powerball lottery to it (now i’m sick).

  482. zephyr February 15, 2007 5:03 am

    Ah, but Mikeck44, I still need a date for entry into the pool. No matter how it starts, it’s still the US that starts. Tricky one, you are!

  483. Pono Huna February 15, 2007 7:19 am

    Darren, #472, i agree with everything you say here. But i suppose that this is a case where “fear” and “danger” need to be properly vetted out. To wit, the expression/truism, “He who trades his freedom for security will have neither.” Do you believe it? Do we beleive it as a society? I can’t make a case whatsoever that our society beleives that. The fear here is so out of balance so as to point in the direction of self-destruction. I would argue that the biggest fear is that people are afraid to be wrong, they have too much invested in the modern ways. One self-doubt might lead to another, and then who knows? Of course i know that death of the ego is much harder on the front end than the back, but tell that to someone who’s about to parachute for the first time. “You will be safe, most likely, i promise.”

    In today’s world, people need to jump out of a burning plane. I know they didn’t expect or want to be here, but i promise, the parachutes work so you either take your chances facing fear or you die.

    Most likely, you’re much better off out there than here - and if you stay here you’re definately not gonna make it.

  484. Pono Huna February 15, 2007 7:55 am

    mikeck44 #473, i wrote #485 before reading your post. Sorry for being redundant and well said.

  485. zephyr February 15, 2007 8:17 am

    Pona Huna (Don’t change your name again….aargh!….I keep wanting to call you Makia…maybe I’ll change my name to Hurricane or Typhoon since I’m not always the calm wind my name implies :-D Actually, yeah that’s a good idea since my moods are so mercurial. It’ll give everybody a little notice which way my winds are blowing. If I’m in-between I’ll be tropical storm), where was I headed? Oh yeah.

    Have YOU ever parachuted? I haven’t but I would. The closest I came was hang-gliding in Rio De Janeiro…dream trip….the women are gorgeous…and for you ladies, the men are damn good looking, too. But, I digress.

    I don’t fear death because I believe in the afterlife. And everybody dies eventually so why fear it? The ONLY reason I fear death is because I wouldn’t want to leave my wife alone to mourn, we have a very, very close bond. What’s that old Winnie the Pooh saying? I wish to live to 100 and I wish you my friend to live to 100 minus one day. Something like that.

  486. kia February 15, 2007 8:31 am


    Gee I never noticed that about you ;-)

    I don’t fear death, I just don’t want much notice.

    Jumping off a perfectly built bridge can be a marvelous way of confronting one’s fear.


  487. zephyr February 15, 2007 8:40 am

    Kia, you talking about bungee jumping? I might give that a go if the opportunity ever presented itself. Why, have you done it?

  488. Pono Huna February 15, 2007 8:50 am

    y’know, this is the middle ground between darren and my points. Fact is, i wouldn’t jump out of a plane, or off a bridge unless i did have to. There’s enough fears in life (like being rejected or disliked or having regrets at the end) to face without creating more artificially. If there’s a 1/10000 change that the rope is too long or the parachute is broke, that’s too big a chance to take for pure fun. I already drive our nation’s highways daily, why push luck?

  489. Pono Huna February 15, 2007 8:52 am

    but i didn’t always feel that way, just after i decided to have a family - before that i was misguided ;-)

    This may be a good case of “to each his own,” but i like my POV.

  490. kia February 15, 2007 8:56 am


    Yes sir I am. Whether you bungee jump or sky dive (I have done both).

    It is very valuable because first it gives you and opportunity to confront yourself as a fearful human being, and second it give you an opportunity to consciously over-ride it. Over riding it gives you the opportunity to dispel your fear, and thus the power it has over you.

    If you BASE jump, be sure to do it twice, and notice the difference. The resistance you encounter the first time will be dispelled the second time. This is a tool that we can take into all the deep dark spots in our skull to dispel fears that we hold about all kind of topics, thus making us Fearless. Something that I wish for all beings.

    Also you get this feeling of lighting up EVERY cell in your body. I guarantee that if you do pursue it, that you will walk around in extremely heightened level of awareness for the rest of your day.

    Let me know if you choose to do it, it would be interesting to here of your experience.

    Peace and Fearlessness to You.

  491. kia February 15, 2007 8:58 am

    Pono Huna,

    I fear your daily commute more that I fear skydiving;-)

  492. zephyr February 15, 2007 9:02 am

    Speaking of our nation’s highways, I’ve driven a good portion of the country and by far I believe the craziest drivers in the country are in south Florida. There’s no rhyme or reason to some of the things they do. Add to that the fact you have, on the same highway, 80 or 90 somethings driving 40mph while crazy coked up youngins drive a minimum of 90mph. And everything in between. Try negotiating that. Can’t sit in any lane and feel safe. My brother-in-law lives down there and says there’s a massive pile-up nearly every day.

  493. skeptical February 15, 2007 9:16 am

    Kia #492 right on. I have a fear of heights so you know what I did to overcome it? I learned how to Paraglide and have done that sport for 6 years now. No paragliding is not being pulled behind a boat (parasailing) but is similar to hang gliding. The difference is the wing we use is does not have a stiff frame.

    Carry on with your banter. Hopefully Michael will start a new thread soon. THis one is getting awfully long

  494. kia February 15, 2007 9:24 am


    I have been climbing, surfing, and meditating for over 35 years. Each activity is one that quiets the mind in order to guide the body into the “flow” of the universe.

    If I were to wish one skill for everyone, it would be this one, as I see it as the medicine necessary in the face of over-info loading.

  495. zephyr February 15, 2007 9:26 am

    Hey, we’ve got to get it to 500 first.

  496. mikeck44 February 15, 2007 9:27 am

    Darren/Pono, Sorry for stepping on your toes. I missed the fact that Darren’s comment was addressed to you Pono.

    Kia, Have you ever gone off of the New River Gorge Bridge? I have not, but have talked to some who have and they get hooked. It is about 875 feet to the river bed. They even devote a day to jumping and rappelling called, Bridge Day. http://www.wvbridgeday.com/

  497. kia February 15, 2007 9:50 am


    Funny that you should ask, short answer is No.
    But I was listening the the NPR feed last fall and heard an interview with one of the sponsors, mentioning that the first BASE jumper off El Capitan in Yosemite (my home rocks) was attending. I had met the man when I was ten, and it was my encounter with him that pointed me in the direction of a life long alpinist.

    Later that week I heard that he had perished at the event, having not thrown his opening chute early enough. Apparently he hadn’t trained for 30 years. So much for the “glory days” approach.

    Me, I’ a B.B. King man:

    “You’re only as good as the last time you played” - B.B. King.

    Happy #500 to whoever claims it.

  498. kia February 15, 2007 11:26 am


    Can’t link to this, so here it is:

    Russia’s Great-Power Strategy
    By George Friedman
    Most speeches at diplomatic gatherings aren’t worth the time it takes to listen to them. On rare occasion, a speech is delivered that needs to be listened to carefully. Russian President Vladimir Putin gave such a speech over the weekend in Munich, at a meeting on international security. The speech did not break new ground; it repeated things that the Russians have been saying for quite a while. But the venue in which it was given and the confidence with which it was asserted signify a new point in Russian history. The Cold War has not returned, but Russia is now officially asserting itself as a great power, and behaving accordingly.

    At Munich, Putin launched a systematic attack on the role the United States is playing in the world. He said: “One state, the United States, has overstepped its national borders in every way … This is nourishing an arms race with the desire of countries to get nuclear weapons.” In other words, the United States has gone beyond its legitimate reach and is therefore responsible for attempts by other countries — an obvious reference to Iran — to acquire nuclear weapons.

    Russia for some time has been in confrontation with the United States over U.S. actions in the former Soviet Union (FSU). What the Russians perceive as an American attempt to create a pro-U.S. regime in Ukraine triggered the confrontation. But now, the issue goes beyond U.S. actions in the FSU. The Russians are arguing that the unipolar world — meaning that the United States is the only global power and is surrounded by lesser, regional powers — is itself unacceptable. In other words, the United States sees itself as the solution when it is, actually, the problem.

    In his speech, Putin reached out to European states — particularly Germany, pointing out that it has close, but blunt, relations with Russia. The Central Europeans showed themselves to be extremely wary about Putin’s speech, recognizing it for what it was — a new level of assertiveness from an historical enemy. Some German leaders appeared more understanding, however: Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier made no mention of Putin’s speech in his own presentation to the conference, while Ruprecht Polenz, chairman of the Bundestag Foreign Affairs Committee, praised Putin’s stance on Iran. He also noted that the U.S. plans to deploy an anti-missile shield in Poland and the Czech Republic was cause for concern — and not only to Russia.

    Putin now clearly wants to escalate the confrontations with the United States and likely wants to build a coalition to limit American power. The gross imbalance of global power in the current system makes such coalition-building inevitable — and it makes sense that the Russians should be taking the lead. The Europeans are risk-averse, and the Chinese do not have much at risk in their dealings with the United States at the moment. The Russians, however, have everything at risk. The United States is intruding in the FSU, and an ideological success for the Americans in Ukraine would leave the Russians permanently on the defensive.

    The Russians need allies but are not likely to find them among other great-power states. Fortunately for Moscow, the U.S. obsession with Iraq creates alternative opportunities. First, the focus on Iraq prevents the Americans from countering Russia elsewhere. Second, it gives the Russians serious leverage against the United States — for example, by shipping weapons to key players in the region. Finally, there are Middle Eastern states that seek great-power patronage. It is therefore no accident that Putin’s next stop, following the Munich conference, was in Saudi Arabia. Having stabilized the situation in the former Soviet region, the Russians now are constructing their follow-on strategy, and that concerns the Middle East.

    The Russian Interests

    The Middle East is the pressure point to which the United States is most sensitive. Its military commitment in Iraq, the confrontation with Iran, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and oil in the Arabian Peninsula create a situation such that pain in the region affects the United States intensely. Therefore, it makes sense for the Russians to use all available means of pressure in the Middle East in efforts to control U.S. behavior elsewhere, particularly in the former Soviet Union.

    Like the Americans, the Russians also have direct interests in the Middle East. Energy is a primary one: Russia is not only a major exporter of energy supplies, it is currently the world’s top oil producer. The Russians have a need to maintain robust energy prices, and working with the Iranians and Saudis in some way to achieve this is directly in line with Moscow’s interest. To be more specific, the Russians do not want the Saudis increasing oil production.

    There are strategic interests in the Middle East as well. For example, the Russians are still bogged down in Chechnya. It is Moscow’s belief that if Chechnya were to secede from the Russian Federation, a precedent would be set that could lead to the dissolution of the Federation. Moscow will not allow this. The Russians consistently have claimed that the Chechen rebellion has been funded by “Wahhabis,” by which they mean Saudis. Reaching an accommodation with the Saudis, therefore, would have not only economic, but also strategic, implications for the Russians.

    On a broader level, the Russians retain important interests in the Caucasus and in Central Asia. In both cases, their needs intersect with forces originating in the Muslim world and trace, to some extent, back to the Middle East. If the Russian strategy is to reassert a sphere of influence in the former Soviet region, it follows that these regions must be secured. That, in turn, inevitably involves the Russians in the Middle East.

    Therefore, even if Russia is not in a position to pursue some of the strategic goals that date back to the Soviet era and before — such as control of the Bosporus and projection of naval power into the Mediterranean — it nevertheless has a basic, ongoing interest in the region. Russia has a need both to limit American power and to achieve direct goals of its own. So it makes perfect sense for Putin to leave Munich and embark on a tour of Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf countries.

    The Complexities

    But the Russians also have a problem. The strategic interests of Middle Eastern states diverge, to say the least. The two main Islamic powers between the Levant and the Hindu Kush are Saudi Arabia and Iran. The Russians have things they want from each, but the Saudis and Iranians have dramatically different interests. Saudi Arabia — an Arab and primarily Sunni kingdom — is rich but militarily weak. The government’s reliance on outside help for national defense generates intense opposition within the kingdom. Desert Storm, which established a basing arrangement for Western troops within Saudi Arabia, was one of the driving forces behind the creation of al Qaeda. Iran — a predominantly Persian and Shiite power — is not nearly as rich as Saudi Arabia but militarily much more powerful. Iran seeks to become the dominant power in the Persian Gulf — out of both its need to defend itself against aggression, and for controlling and exploiting the oil wealth of the region.

    Putting the split between Sunni and Shiite aside for the moment, there is tremendous geopolitical asymmetry between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Saudi Arabia wants to limit Iranian power, while keeping its own dependence on foreign powers at a minimum. That means that, though keeping energy prices high might make financial sense for the kingdom, the fact that high energy prices also strengthen the Iranians actually can be a more important consideration, depending on circumstances. There is some evidence that recent declines in oil prices are linked to decisions in Riyadh that are aimed at increasing production, reducing prices and hurting the Iranians.

    This creates a problem for Russia. While Moscow has substantial room for maneuver, the fact is that lowered oil prices impact energy prices overall, and therefore hurt the Russians. The Saudis, moreover, need the Iranians blocked — but without going so far as to permit foreign troops to be based in Saudi Arabia itself. In other words, they want to see the United States remain in Iraq, since the Americans serve as the perfect shield against the Iranians so long as they remain there. Putin’s criticisms of the United States, as delivered in Munich, would have been applauded by Saudi Arabia prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. But in 2007, the results of that invasion are exactly what the Saudis feared — a collapsed Iraq and a relatively powerful Iran. The Saudis now need the Americans to stay put in the region.

    The interests of Russia and Iran align more closely, but there are points of divergence there as well. Both benefit from having the United States tied up, militarily and politically, in wars, but Tehran would be delighted to see a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq that leaves a power vacuum for Iran to fill. The Russians would rather not see this outcome. First, they are quite happy to have the United States bogged down in Iraq and would prefer that to having the U.S. military freed for operations elsewhere. Second, they are interested in a relationship with Iran but are not eager to drive the United States and Saudi Arabia into closer relations. Third, the Russians do not want to see Iran become the dominant power in the region. They want to use Iran, but within certain manageable limits.

    Russia has been supplying Iran with weapons. Of particular significance is the supply of surface-to-air missiles that would raise the cost of U.S. air operations against Iran. It is not clear whether the advanced S300PMU surface-to-air missile has yet been delivered, although there has been some discussion of this lately. If it were delivered, this would present significant challenges for U.S. air operation over Iran. The Russians would find this particularly advantageous, as the Iranians would absorb U.S. attentions and, as in Vietnam, the Russians would benefit from extended, fruitless commitments of U.S. military forces in regions not vital to Russia.

    Meanwhile, there are energy matters: The Russians, as we have said, are interested in working with Iran to manage world oil prices. But at the same time, they would not be averse to a U.S. attack that takes Iran’s oil off the market, spikes prices and enriches Russia.

    Finally, it must be remembered that behind this complex relationship with Iran, there historically has been animosity and rivalry between the two countries. The Caucasus has been their battleground. For the moment, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, there is a buffer there, but it is a buffer in which Russians and Iranians are already dueling. So long as both states are relatively weak, the buffer will maintain itself. But as they get stronger, the Caucasus will become a battleground again. When Russian and Iranian territories border each other, the two powers are rarely at peace. Indeed, Iran frequently needs outside help to contain the Russians.

    A Complicated Strategy

    In sum, the Russian position in the Middle East is at least as complex as the American one. Or perhaps even more so, since the Americans can leave and the Russians always will live on the doorstep of the Middle East. Historically, once the Russians start fishing in Middle Eastern waters, they find themselves in a greater trap than the Americans. The opening moves are easy. The duel between Saudi Arabia and Iran seems manageable. But as time goes on, Putin’s Soviet predecessors learned, the Middle East is a graveyard of ambitions — and not just American ambitions.

    Russia wants to contain U.S. power, and manipulating the situation in the Middle East certainly will cause the Americans substantial pain. But whatever short-term advantages the Russians may be able to find and exploit in the region, there is an order of complexity in Putin’s maneuver that might transcend any advantage they gain from boxing the Americans in.

    In returning to “great power” status, Russia is using an obvious opening gambit. But being obvious does not make it optimal.

  499. zephyr February 15, 2007 12:10 pm

    Damn you Kia! I had so coveted spot number 500. Oh, the agony…. As far as Russia goes, 3 cheers for Putin’s speech. A very enlightening article. And I guess I had better bump up that trip to Moscow before it becomes undoable. At least if I don’t want to be interegated and stip searched upon returning home from a visit to Russia. Oh, the choices.

  500. kia February 15, 2007 12:23 pm

    Sorry Brother Zeph,

    What can I say I lack self control ;-)

    Chinese soothsayers: Year of Pig signals conflicts before new world order


    The world can expect a roller-coaster ride of conflict and unrest, natural disasters and a plunge in global stock markets once the Year of the Pig begins, Chinese soothsayers say.

    As the world farewells the Year of the Dog on Sunday, believers in Chinese superstitions have been busy consulting fortune tellers, feng shui geomancers and a wealth of new books for the year’s fortunes.

    Chinese fortunes are based on a belief that events are dictated by the different balances in the elements that make up the earth — gold, wood, water, fire and earth.

    Feng shui expert Raymond Lo said that according to ancient Chinese belief, the Year of the Pig is symbolised by two elements — fire sitting on top of water.

    “Fire sitting on water is a symbol of conflict and skirmish, and this may bring a relatively less peaceful year with more international conflicts and struggles,” he said.

    Lo said the last time such an arrangement appeared was in 2002, the year that followed the September 11 terrorist attacks.

    “It is anticipated that there will be more international conflicts and disharmony, which will even lead to regional warfare, uprising and unrest, or the overthrow of governments in certain countries,” he said.

    The elemental arrangement for 2007, with fire standing on top, could represent openness, optimism and warmth, but it can also bring fire disasters and huge explosions, Lo said.

    The Chinese calendar moves in 60-year cycles, meaning the world will experience in the new year events similar to those that took place in 1947.

    In that turbulent year, the Cold War began in earnest when then US president Truman declared his anti-communist doctrine and the Soviet Union rejected a US plan for atomic weapons control, sparking the nuclear arms race.

    That year saw the same elemental arrangement with yin fire dominant in the Year of the Pig.

    “So it will not be surprising that there will be more gun battles, murder with guns, bombing attacks in the year 2007,” Lo added.

    – World faces unrest and disharmony but all ends well –

    The lunar calendar is based on the cycles of the moon and associates each of the 12 years forming a partial cycle with an animal. The pig is the last in the zodiac sequence that begins with the rat, followed by the ox, tiger, rabbit, dragon, snake, horse, goat, monkey, rooster and dog.

    Fortune-tellers base their predictions on the relationship between the zodiac animals and the characteristics of each animal year.

    They also take into account the changing balance over the years in the five spiritual elements that Chinese philosophy believes form the core of the universe — gold, wood, water, fire and earth.

    Feng shui expert Lee Sing-tong predicts serious conflict in the Middle East this coming year.

    “Religious wars will turn intense. There will be large-scale warfare or explosions,” said Lee, a third-generation feng shui master.

    He also expects serious diplomatic conflicts in the East, for instance between China and Japan, and says the problem will be most acute until May 5.

    Fortune teller Alion Yeo, who predicted nuclear testing in North Korea last year, said there is a chance that the power of Pyongyang’s leader, Kim Jong-il, will weaken.

    “This will most likely happen between June and July. I can see their leader is in bad luck during the period. This means something will be changed: someone might replace him or he might fall ill,” Yeo said.

    “There might be a chance that he would leave his position or hand over his duty to someone else,” he added.

    The Year of the Pig will largely be a smooth one for the United States, although Yeo predicts an interest rate hike in the third quarter and a big accident between June and July.

    “It could be a big fire or an explosion. It would be something that draws the world’s attention and causes the stock market to fall,” he said, adding however that the market would quickly recover.

    Yeo also predicts a strong earthquake, at least 7.0 on the Richter scale, in a Japanese city between March and April. But the number of wounded would be limited by the earthquake resistance of the country’s architecture.

    Although Yeo anticipates global unrest, he expects a mediator will come in to balance the tense situation between conflicting countries.

    “I don’t think it will be that bad this year. Although there will be a lot of unrest and disharmony, problems will be solved in the end,” he said.

    Lo agreed. The pig belongs to the water element and is the birth month of wood. The pig symbolises the germination of plants and when new life is born.

    “The pig year can bring a new beginning of international relationships and social orders, this could bring new regimes with new governments in some countries,” he said.

    And Lee predicts the birth of someone of national importance to China.

    He said this person will be born on June 30 between 5.00-6.59 am Hong Kong time (21.00-22.59 GMT) somewhere in the east or south of the country.

    “This date of birth is very rare. It only happens once every 60 years. It is very difficult to see such a good fate,” he said.

    Lee said he did not publish this prediction in his latest feng shui book for fear of inciting mothers to plan their pregnancies to occur at that time.

    “I don’t want to ruin the natural order. I don’t want someone planning their pregnancy artificially. Heaven might not allow it,” he said.

    “But this child would be a prodigy, very intelligent and talented. This person would have the quality to become China’s leader or a prime minister,” he added.

  501. bp February 15, 2007 2:19 pm

    heh, thanks kia, how do you find time to read all this!

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