Posted on February 1, 2007
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McNosis, Retiring Boomers and the Silent Crash
Tough Times Ahead for Elder Boomers?
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mike, I retired a year ago to take
care of my mother. That coffee at mac’s
has improved greatly over the past 6 months
and is better than most places.
essay is on point and restrained in its tone, despite the ominous
warnings of what lies ahead. When the reckoning comes––whenever that
may be––it’s certain the future will not look like the past. Americans
and all the poor sods across the globe who’ve emulated us will no
longer be able to languish in the longest-running case of denial on
record. The top one percent will no longer own 85% (or whatever the
number is) of the wealth; America will not be the global hegemon; and,
best of all, maybe television will be used to teach, rather than
pollute (o.k., that’s a bridge too far). There may even be someone who
comes along to rescue capitalism, as FDR did. And while there’s no way
to calculate the extent of the economic devastation that awaits us,
whatever’s left of our national wealth will be required to invest in
the things we’ve long ignored, while we’ve enabled the new plutocrats
to steal everything not nailed down. We simply refuse to abandon the
belief that ever-increasing consumption is not only our birthright, but
possible. That’s starting to show some wear, even now. This crash, the
economic calamity, whatever it will ultimately be called, will inflict
a lot of pain. Yet it may be the only way to renew this country, to
make it a place more focused on humanity than greed, to get it out of
the business of empire, and to force it to learn how to live with its
neighbors in a globalized world. It could be a very exciting time.
feel for anyone that is taking advantage of the free offer to
elliotwave.com. The website is run by a gentlemen named Robert Prechter
who has been predicting that the bear market in gold has not ended for
years. I have multiplied my wealth several times since the gold bull
began in 2001. You are not doing your readers a favor by leading them
towards someone who has got it wrong time after time.
“But Bush broke his promise and kept right on spending the Social Security
money. He is currently spending approximately $400 million of Social
Security money each and every day,” Smith points out.
Sorry for ranting on about that website but cmon. I just signed up for laughs and giggles and whats the first thing I see?
A Major Deflation is Approaching
- September 1998, at the bottom right of main page.
LOL I was making my first million in 1998 playing junior tech stocks and this guy was preaching deflation.
What a joke.
country has got one hell of a ride ahead of it - it will be interesting
to see how it fares. You could say that it is the boomer generation
that is the cause of all the problems we have today - it was that huge
“pig through the python” of their generation that led to inflation in
the 70’s, the excessive greed of the 80’s, the me-first 90’s, all the
while causing global warming along the way.
Now that they are getting old, I wonder if it isn’t time that Karma
had caught up with them. Will they be left high and dry by the younger
generation, or will they hang on to the political power well enough to
continue to screw the rest of the people and the planet as well?
Only time will tell, but I think that we’re in for one helluva
generational shitstorm coming down the pike, and it ain’t going to be
pretty. I don’t know how the market intends to hold itself up once the
first boomers start to sell.
I’m an old timer, hopefully I won’t be around to see it. Personally,
I don’t want to. I’m looking forward to what lies ahead in the next
Americans realize that our politicians have sold out to the oil powers
we shall continue down the path of destruction. There are alternative
energy sources such as coal that can be liquified at less than half the
cost of the current OPEC import.Look at silverado.com if you do not
believe me. Environmentally friendly and easily obtained there is one
big question. Why have we not utilized the resources we have? The
answer lies in the power in Washington and large corporations tied to
the war machine. We are in Iraq to secure future supply, and are
leaning toward an expansive war in Iran for the same reason. War means
big bucks, and control of oil supplies continues to pump money into the
connected coffiers. Todays politician is bought and paid for by corrupt
self interest groups. Democracy is only a word and we the people means
we who are constantly screwed. Bad times are comming but noone believes
it. When it all crumbles into a financial mess the middle class in the
US will pay the sad price. No one will stop it, no one can. But history
will show a time of deep pain is comming very soon.
suggest that if the USA government ( which supposedly represents the
people who live there)is really serious about social reforms then it
should immediately cease to pilfer the social security surplus for
other government expenditures. Frankly speaking there is a lot of talk
about reforms but little ( if any) action. I also believe the US
government is more likely to enact reforms which delay the impact of
baby boomer retirement than to fix it ( as the US has done on at least
2 previous occasions. Wish you luck but whatever happens the US
standard of living is set to decline as all the choices available are
bad - hope you choose those which have the least adverse impact
will have something of a grace period. The real inflation rate is 10%,
the COLA is based on the official rate which always seems to be about
3%. That should buy us a little time. After that I have my beans and
bullets. Good luck
is so hypocritical of the Prechter and the Elliott Wave people to
publish a chart in which they speak of gold as “Real Money”. He has
been calling for gold to go below $200/oz for years.
solution: Remove all troups from countries around the world and Cut the
size of the U.s. ARMY in HALF. Then there would be plenty of money for
Let them eat fries.
Micky D’s is a good place to buy Newman’s Own salad dressings. You
pay 21 cents for a two ounce packet. A quart of Newman’s Own has a
total expense of $3.36. One heckuva bargain. It can’t be touched. They
are all great salad dressings.
Other than that, I don’t buy any food from McDonald’s other than an
occasional order of fries. Who wants to be in line with your car engine
running to buy a hamburger that isn’t really a hamburger?
46 dollars for a pair of Levi’s jeans these days is beyond the pale.
Those days are gone from my budget. I can afford them, I’m not paying
the price. I bought a great pair of Haggar brand casual pants on sale
for ten dollars. They were marked sixty dollars. It’s all in how you
spend your dollar when working in the sawmill. If you have a million of
them, you quit the sawmill, go home and play the banjo.
All of those folks driving through McDonald’s aren’t driving Fords. Not good news for Ford. Bill Ford
owns 8 plus million shares of Ford stock and 125,000 shares of Ebay
stock. He doesn’t really care if Ford is eight dollars and change, he
still has 65 million dollars or so. I doubt if he’s eating at
McDonald’s. I’m sure he has more money in the bank too. I don’t think
he is starting to worry and fuss about his stock. Henry might be
getting worried though.
a low in the early nineties, about 33 dollars per share. They were kind
of hamstrung for a while with too much expense and shallow cash flow,
but they came back from their doldrums. At 33 dollars, it was the buy
of the century. If you use the link, you’ll see that IBM was a 534
dollar stock in 1969. The dollar had value then. Stocks had great
Now, it’s the McNYSE.
I doubt if Willie Sutton would even bother to rob banks these days.
The money is there; however, he would have to haul too much of it away
to make it worth his while. The banksters would be insulted, maybe even
cry a river.
If the boomers ever get to retire, they are in for a big surprise. I
doubt if I’ll ever quit working. All play and no work makes Jack a dull
People have no idea of how stressed out they really are. It has got
to stop. A collapse would do that. Maybe it will be a blessing in
Let them have retirement checks.
What does it mean to be human? Who has the answer?
unpublished, the still ongoing rapid expansion of the M3 has yet to hit
prices in the US in a big way. It will hit someday soon and the
printing presses in Washington will stay in overdrive until the world
says enough, no more dollars. That may be the point in time where the
rumored “Amero” may hit the forefront replacing those worthless
dollars. I’m gathering and holding all the gold and silver I can get my
Begin initiating the development of a federation of sustainable communities.
many analysts, investors, etc. who contribute to Dollar Collapse have
so frequently pointed out empires come and go and depending on one’s
perceptions the reasons vary. We do not have to reread Toynbee an
abridged version of Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of Rome is adequate. In
any case loss of faith and hope in the future for one reason or another
pretty much sums it up. A major redistribution of wealth caused
naturally i.e. gravitating to an equilibrium through immense greed and
stupidity so the house of cards falls or a conscious choice to
drastically cut spending and put our economic house in order. In any
case the dollar collapses we will be looking at a new global currency
big deal. We have a 10 year depression we’ll be out of work that will
give us time to cool our heels and examine our fasting skills. This I
do know, knowing the reason something happens for example an earthquake
at this stage of human know-how will not stop it or as you can well see
even prepare people for it. We know here in California we are due for
the big one anytime but we still build directly on faults. I look
forward to the future sometimes you have to fight poison with poison
and fire with fire.
I am hoping for deep snowpacks and large surf.
I suggest that everyone else buckle their seat belt and put their
tray table and seat backs into their upright position then lean forward
and kiss their future as they were sold it goodbye
Peace and Change
amazes me that for all the knowledge and skill that exists in the US
you all are slowly going down an economic cliff that can only be
labeled as stupid for the whole US of A country as a whole……
It is becomong kind of a silent joke….
I truly hope that you guys wake up to reality and tighten up your belts or else we are all doomed.
Better start buying some Chinese Language books..
Concerned Canadian Citizen.
most of you realize broad money supply in recent times and is today
running at about 10% per annum. This is so in USA, Japan, China, India,
UK, Australia and most other countries ( some well in excess of 10%).
This means currencies are being debased concurrently and it is those
cuurencies which have debased their currencies the most will suffer the
greatest loss of purchasing power. Dont bet on the USD falling all that
much soon although i think it will do so in the longer term.
For the life of me I do not understand why people invest in money
market funds or bonds. They are losing big time. If the interest rate
or yield is say 4.8% then the investor is losing 5.2% in purchasing
power. How much longer can this go on? Consequently it is much more
sensible to put at least 20% of investable funds in Gold bullion (as it
is the most stable currency). One oz. of gold in 1907 ( about $20 per
oz) bought a good quality( man’s) suit. One oz. of gold today will also
buy the same quality suit. One US dollar 1n 1907 bought about 95% than
what you can buy with it today. Silver bullion may also be wortwhile.
In addition trading gold and silver shares will likely be useful to
protect one’s wealth.
curse bubblevision for the fixation on the DJIA, when a grownup would
realize that a broader index is more sensible than, say S&P500. Now
I see you doing your silent crash analysis on the DJIA. C’mon!!
me, But I still believe in the power of the people to change. There is
no past, there is no future, all we have is now. And for me and my
family, right now it ain’t so bad.
Under grace in a perfect way.
SES says “There may even be someone who comes along to rescue capitalism, as FDR did.”
You have got to be kidding? FDR was a socialist and really turned up
the socialism in this country with his “New Deal” (socialist insecurity
theft/slave system) Come on now how did his socialist new deal “save”
Richard G says “We are in Iraq to secure future supply, and are leaning toward an expansive war in Iran for the same reason. ”
I agree with your assessment of the energy situation. This peak oil
progoganda is just that. It worked incredible well. Look at oil
prices??? We have 1000 years of energy in THIS country alone. With out
coal (which can be easily liquified) and our oil shale, tar, and sands,
we can cheaply and easily exist without ANY imports for 1000 years.
Now I must disagree with your above statement. We went into Iraq for
2 reasons. 1) to CONTROL their oil - i.e. we became PART of OPEC (Iraq
is one of the members and when the us took over Iraq the US became a
OPEC member). If you can’t beat them - join them. 2) To bring the
middle east into the NEW WORLD ORDER. I.e, what was the second thing
the US did after invading (first was to control the oil)? Set up a
central bank and start issuing “money”.
is dead on in 13. They hid M3 but that will only work so long. 17, F
gonzalves, you are also sadly right on. I’m 42, the first year of
generation X which has been much maligned. But if the Depression/WWII
generation was the greatest, then it was quickly followed by the worst.
The boomers have always been self-absorbed, destroying and eating and
sponging everything in their path. They are the ones who have
transformed us into a country with no future. They are the reason, as
Michael so eloquently puts it, we have turned into a country of zombies
with no real hope, just living day to day. We live to serve the masters
of the house of business.
That’s why I’m living each day to the fullest now, because The
Boomers have destroyed the future and will continue to suck the marrow
out as seniors. It’s true, what future do we have?? People like Michael
Von Brah, 5, I hope you had fun and have a 10 foot wall around your
property with armed guards. Because the coming generations are not
going to be happy about being used. It’s like entering a banquet hall
that’s been devastated from an orgy of excess. And as the partiers exit
the room, they hand the bill to the next group for the party and
damages to clean up.
Enjoy yorself now, you’re watching history unfold. I know my future
is screwed. My only joy will be watching boomers wail and gnash their
teeth in despair. You transformed the world into your greedy little
playground where all moral value was tossed to the winds. Enjoy your
good! You are obviously aware of the underlying plan of hierarchy. The
rest of you need to get educated as to what is really going on. Delve
deeply into http://www.shareintl.org for more on the crisis facing humanity, expressing itself thru the economic and political fields.
Skeptical, as always, you are dead on also!
#22. I’m afraid you’re right. I’m a boomer, but I never got in on that
action. Greed has destroyed this once great country.
“What does it mean to be human?”
Has the corporate ‘ethic’ really changed the face of humanity that much?
Not anymore than the Catholic Church’s ethic when the Grand
Inquisitor touched the lives of millions of ‘witches’ in Europe.
Galileo was forced to recant his beliefs or face extermination. Giordano Bruno wasn’t so lucky.
A ‘witches brew’ is a real piece of history. They sold their excess
brew to the general public. If a woman of the household had some extra
to offer for sale, she placed her broom outside her doorway of her
domicile. Later on, a market was established and the women wore tall,
pointy hats for advertisement. You could see the hats easier at the
Joan of Arc was burned alive at the stake. Her executioners were
horrified when they went to retrieve her charred remains; her heart was
During the Byzantine Empire, farmers in the countryside marched their daughters to town for a life of prostitution.
Homosexual prostitution was legal, but it didn’t stop an enraged public
to burn them alive when they were blamed for the troubles that had
beset them. It didn’t change, homosexual prostitution remained legal.
The market was open for ‘trade.’
href=”http://bioanthropology.huji.ac.il/pdf/Faerman1998.pdf”>Here is an eye opener.
Humanity has advanced light years, to be realistic.
Although, I believe the corporate ‘ethic’ is to blame for the regressive situation that plagues our present dilemma.
What do you do? Be good, not bad.
That begins at the top. Our ‘leaders’ are not to be followed, by any means. If they are human, it leaves a lot to be desired.
McNosis? What McNosis? We don’t need no stinking McNosis.
Art 25, I must apologize….it is always wrong to paint everyone with the
same brush. Of course, there are boomers who are very good people who
are horrified at what their peers have done. But, taken as a whole, the
boomer generation has been a parasite on the earth.
Andre I am not sure if you are buying int the “share international”
propoganda or if you are showing us what the “opposition” has planned
for us. Which is it?
the mid 90’s Canada’s economy, out of control deficits, gov’t spending,
underfunded ss (can pension), and debt were the worst in the world.The
Fiberals won the election on the promise of cleaning it all up. Today
we as a nation are much better off going forward and we have a higher %
of boomers than the USA. It still should be BAD after reckoning day but
we have a dozen years of clean up under our belts.The difference I
believe is our media were all over the deficit/debt, underfunding
issues - just as today they and NOW the politicians are all over
My point is that somehow you must get the media all over these issues
to wake up the sheeple. On the Ron Paul thread I said and still do PR
Who the hell would eat at mickey d’s - my children wouldn’t even eat there when they were young.
Zeph - I love your party analysis of the inter generational hand-off.
zephyr #44, I’m 44 and have always resented being dumped in the boomer
bucket - I think someone decided in the 80’s that the boomer generation
started in 1945 and ends in 1964, something like that, so I just
squeaked in to it! When I look at the demographics of the boomers I
exhibit the attributes of an Xer much more. Having said that, all past
and to a lesser degree present, generations are and have been
responsible for the debacle. If you believe that one of the core issues
in our demise as a culture is the central bank then you need to blame
the generation in power during the nineteen teens! If you believe the
cold war was a phoney and a means to create perpetual war for perpetual
profit then you have to blame the generation in control of the US in
the post WW II world - when the boomers were just being born. Bush baby
is a boomer, but in reality he inherited the mess from another boomer
(Clinton) who got it from Bush dad who was not a boomer - then there
was Reagan etc. Bottom line is the problem starts way before current
generations. The nature of the problem, the central banking system, is
such that it accelerates over time - so the next generation ALWAYS
appears more guilty because the system has to grow, create more debt to
service the old and therefore create more war for more profit, more
death and allow in a warped way for more life (more people more
As for the issue at hand with McNosis, well hmmmm. I agree with the
majority of what Michael wrote, with a few exceptions. It is a little
ironic to drive folks to Prechter’s promotion through this article,
although there is some consistency in the approach. The irony is that
blind faith in Prechter over the years has not been paid out and is
approaching a form of mild delusion in and of itself (a PrechNosis if
you will). Perhaps, if we all wait long enough, Prechter will be right
again one day, but he’s been consistently wrong now since the last time
he was right (about 20 years).
One of the paradoxes in the article that needs debating is the
criticism of the lack of willingness of the people to address deep
rooted financial issues while they run around at high speeds consuming
McCrap in a world where 1/3 of them are high school drop outs.
If 1/3 of them are dropping out of high school then its not hard to
understand the dilemma, they are not educated nearly enough to begin to
understand the issues. The Great Dumbing Down of America (GDDOA - as
the great Mogambo would say) is near completion, pretty soon the
sheeple will be fully programmed, the elite will have their way and the
US experiment will be complete - a multi-racial mish mash of consuming
and working automatons that produce without a real voice of dissension,
and consume whatever is put in front of them, good or bad will be in
Next will come the inserted chips, the ID cards and the camps for
those who somehow take the red pill
(http://www.arrod.co.uk/essays/matrix.php) and see through the Matrix
and start to dissent.
I’m guessing the silent crash will roar before it’s over, it always
does, the people won’t go silently forever and sooner or later the
elite will be caught in a trap of their own making and will pay the
highest price for their abuse.
Why can’t we all just get along!? Live and let live, have a
reasonable share of what the world has to offer and work together for a
better life for future generations, does it really have to be this
boomers have destroyed this planet. There has never been a more selfish
generation in the history of civilization than the evil baby boomers,
unjust entitlement has been theyre mantra since they were
I figured out the “people” responsible for the HUGE problems we all
now face a while ago…I just sat back and watched knowing full well that
the rest of the world would eventually figure them out, well they did.
Now its going to be a very, very bad time to be in that age category.
Hell, it might even become sport to kill em in certain cultural groups.
Exterminations throughout history have been propagated for much worse
crimes than what they are responsible for
Those old bastards will just not leave !! They STILL control most
all of the politicians seats, run most all of the major multinational
corporations, hold positions of immense power….but it will change
fairly soon I would venture to guess….and when the entire world looks
for the pricks that have been at the helm when this world hits the
rocks will get their retribution. It couldnt come to a more “deserving”
group than the baby boomers….Im glad iam NOT one of them ! ….they will
see soon enough.
Younger people will spit on them as they walk by and see them
starving on the streets of what used to be the best country in the
world….this country gave HOPE to everyone else on this planet that
wasnt as fortunate to be born into the USA. I say: Melt em down, every
person if cooked at the right temperature long enough, for the correct
amount of time will yield appx. 1-1/2 gallons of oil.
Spot on, my question is how do you see the sheeple reacting to the “roaring” silent crash?
Will it be the frog in the pot on low? Or will it be a violent uprising?
I’d be interested in your take.
Pardon me. I will express my righteous indignation on the baby boomer is at fault scapegoating crapola.
I suppose you can fill up a book of faults on them and then redeem them like a book of S&H greenstamps.
It’s all hogwash and it doesn’t wash. You’re all wet.
Soon after the boomers implode, the X’ers will be blamed by the what is called the Generation Y, or Why?
Nice try, but try again.
What has Generation X done to deserve to be able to be the jury, judge and executioner?
Nothing. Nitwits, one and all. You’ll get marched to the guillotine too.
“… And the vision that was planted in my brain still remains within the sounds of silence.” - Paul Simon, boomer nonpareil
get freaking real, get a haircut and get a real job.
Wow, why don’t we just take a moment.
muleskinner, nice one! Made me laugh. Entitlements were invented in the
20’s and rolled out in the 30’s way before the boomers were a twinkle
in anyone’s eye. The issues are deep and multi-generational - you can’t
blame a generation for this anymore than you can blame white people for
being the scourge of the earth (well we are, but lets not go there!).
kia, the frog is on slow boil right now, but at some point it’s
internals are going to overheat and expand and then explode. The
ricochet of guts will take out the chef, the plot will crack and frog
will enter heaven knowing it took down the whole kit and kaboodle!
Then the A Generation will take over and begin the cycle once again, new pot, new frog, new chef!
“look up below” you are full of rage, anger and hatred and
unfortunately it is directed at the wrong people. The boomers
INDIVIDUALLY are no different that those in YOUR age group (whatever
that is). As a group they hold more perceived power just because they
are a larger group. It is nothing more than that.
Rich says “Why can’t we all just get along!? Live and let live, have
a reasonable share of what the world has to offer and work together for
a better life for future generations, does it really have to be this
You all do not appreciate just yet the evils in the world today are
planned and have been going on for ALL of recorded history. Man has
NEVER been free, the world has NEVER been just, and history NEVER
changes because those “forces” directing history NEVER change. This
pollyanna talk about living and letting live, and going along to get
along, blah blah blah. WAKE UP PEOPLE - It is a fixed game with a well
planned end (comming to a theater near you - soon).
Sorry that was suppose to be “look out below” not “look up below”
I can’t type worth a sh…
skeptical, I kinda liked “look up below”, hehe
thanks to that link to Catherine Austin Fitts, even though you
called her Katherine, hehe - took me forever to read through it though
and yeah, for the rest of you I am a BOOMER….go search my comments
and see if I sound like your stereo type…until you all get out of this
labeling issue, you’re gonna have trouble dealing with reality -
honestly how immature
skeptical, though I don’t always agree with you, I have to say at least you are willing to look this beast in the face, heheh
we are all conditioned, even those we consider evil - we need to
learn to see thru the illusions — Rich can you send me a red pill - I
lost mine, damn
I rarely write comments but being one of those bad guy boomers I think I’d like to add my $0.02 here.
It seems most speak of boomers (Rush Limbaugh for example) as
leaches on the system. He and others state that since there are so many
of us that the system will fail as if it is a problem of shear numbers.
What no one seems to ask is, Where is all that money this huge group
paid in. Once in a while someone will comment on how the feds blew all
the money but its stated as a matter of fact,,, as if it is to be
expected rather then the outright fraud it is. I hear no outcry, no
demands of where the money is, Hell our Offense Department ‘misplaced’
a trillion dollars with very little comment.
The National debt interest, almost $400 billion (probably more), is not
even mentioned when Bernake, other ‘Feds’ and economists talk about how
our system is going to crumble because of the ‘BABY BOOMERS”
AS I see it I am paying into the SSI (Social Security Insurance) fund.
This insurance is supposed to assist me when I am a retired leach. What
would be said if you paid into an auto insurance program for years only
to be told “Sorry, We spent all the money” when you try to collect, and
the answer being touted is that you should feel bad for wanting to
Why is it most are hell bent on screwing the poor bastards that paid
into the system for umpteem years while letting our elected officials
off the hook. Have you seen ‘their’ retirement benefits?????? I
guarantee none of them will be eating cat food like us boomer leaches
in twenty years. But, on and on we go about everything being the fault
of the boomers.
You want the answer??
I’ll give you the answer, Everyone in government elected officials, Union workers et all be put in the SSI system.
I guarantee you they will “FIX IT”.. They’ll raise taxes, they’ll
cut spending, they’ll stop waging war on every little sh–box country in
the world that can’t defend itself, they’ll stop shipping off those
high paying jobs to China, India and Vietnam and they will stop the
southern invasion which is holding down the wages.
Think we’ll do it… Nope! We’ll just go on complaining about those boomer leaches as Rush Scumbaugh puts it.
Well thats the way a boomer scum sees it. Hope it doesn’t offend too many folks
speak up, stop your McNosis. If your want to call me a complete
shithead, go ahead. I know, I’m being a pious prick too. You got both
barrels. So sotty.
I can take it. As for the crocodile tears, I’ll feed ya some crow.
“First they came for the Cry Baby Boomers, but I wasn’t a Cry Baby Boomer, so I didn’t scream and holler and yell.”
As for the evil that exists, do searches like Rock Creek Park, Chandra Levy, Gary Condit, etc., followed by the word ‘evil.’
apologise in advance to a predominantly American readership , I am an
Englishman who has travelled the globe for the past 25 years ,I am the
son of a former chief executive of an American corporation , I am 44
years old, over my years of travelling (something very few Americans
do, only 10% of Americans own a passport)I have frequently bumped into
peoples of many different cultures and races , 25 years ago the world
loved America , Frank sinatra , The Statue of liberty , Babe Ruth, even
Ronnie Reagan had a certain charm, but I have to tell you that you
would have to travel a long long way to find anyone in the world today
who will not rejoice when the crash awaiting America happens, my
country has been foolishly and naively led by a lying fool for the past
ten years who was so overawed at the neo-con administration that he
rolled over and embarrassed the UK in his fawning to the Gangsters on
Capitol Hill. An example of American courseness and lack of experience
that i have seen repeated a thousand times in far flung parts of the
globe occurred to me last week whilst I was in business in Thailand, I
was eating alone at a riverside restaurant in the Shangri-la hotel in
Bangkok, surrounded by first time American travellers, one table had a
group of brash young people shouting out loud about how the third world
“ain’t so bad” and I reflected that were it not for the hard work and
productive abilities of those Asians (who for some foolish reason
continue to exchange their production for green printed paper which has
60 trillion of debt backing it)the fat grunting boorish yobs who
demonstrated no respect whatsoever for the waitresses or locals would
have to get up off those fat arses and actually earn a living by doing
some real work like the people they were being so derogatory towards,
behind me sat an older (sinatra generation) couple the sort of
Americans I used to admire , the man started shouting and wagging his
finger at a waitress because the food was spicy, well waken up old man
you had gone into a Thai restaurant in Bangkok where if you only
understood a little about the world you would know that ALL the Thai
food is spicy , and further you would know that wagging a finger at a
kind , underpaid , and delightful young lady in Thailand is a cultural
faux pas of the first order and is gravely insulting. these are just
two personal experiences in a single restaurant in a single day , i
could recount hndreds but i won’t bore you further, America will waken
up to the fact that they have shown no respect for and have little
understanding of the world beyond Fox News when that world has ticker
tape celebrations (American style) when the American economy crashes
like no other crash the world has ever seen, it is brewing now, the
leaders of China and Russia are nudging it along, the rest of the world
is waiting for it to happen, I will not join the celebrations when the
day comes because I once loved your country, I will be sad that a young
country with so much to give chose only to take , as a result many
millions of Americans will be impoverished beyond their imagination and
America will become the new third world , perhaps we could call it the
fourth world , a world inhabited by former first world crashed nations,
led by America and probably followed by my own country.
I didn’t realize Reagan and Greenspan were boomers.
Just loved the ‘Ballad of a Thin Man’ quote;
“Something is happening, but you don’t know what it is - do you, Mr. Jones?”
You are spot on as nearly always.
And to Adrian Buckley’s February 2nd, 2007 at 10:44 am quote,
Adrian, Please to have a little pity on those of us who agree with
you and your observations of my once great and admired country. What
you feel pales to the feelings some of us have knowing what you said,
and knowing of our national history abroad. Out of 300 million, there
are 10’s of millions who “Know” the truth.
As little impact as those in your country’s colonial days who
disagreed, and as much impact those german citizens had/would have had
in Germany in the 30’s.
We watch these last 25 years (since Ronnie Raygun) as we squandered our “Good Will” and Name abroad.
Yes, all the way back before ‘53 when we overthrew a democratically elected Iranian president for …. YOUR BP oil company.
“There is so much good in the worst of us,
and so much bad in the best of us,
it’s hard to tell which of us,
should reform the rest of us”
“You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can’t make him think”
Fare thee well, all of us
You hit it out of the park, I am a 49 year old native Californian
who has spent 2/3 of my last 30 years working in the third world. The
Americans are not just the biggest know nothings on the the planet,
they are don’t want to know nothings, despite the fact that the
information is readily available to them, once they turn off the
electronic sewer pipe which feeds them their electronic soma. Their
diet of ignorance will cost them the values that the entire world envys.
My question for you is, once Bush’s lap dog resigns for his party’s
participation in the honors for money scandal how long do you think
that the UK will stay in Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan?
Thanks for your contribution.
is always unfortunate that the immediate reaction is to look for a
scapegoat to blame. In this case Boomers. Other posters are correct,
the problems go back at least to pre Civil War days.
Casting a blanket of blame over an entire generation because they
happened to be born in a time that enabled them to enjoy the great
country we used to have is self-defeating. The ongoing problem is that
no significant number of any generation, save for the founding fathers,
has taken RESPONSIBILITY for fixing the situation.
The main problem is understanding the historical context of how we
came to the dilemma we now find ourselves in. Education in the U.S. has
eroded to such a degree that current school age to younger Xers have
little real education. Incidentally, this is one reason why foreign
nationals are brought here to work for corporations, and corporations
relocate overseas. This is a real drain on our economy that younger
generations are more directly responsible for. Work ethic is also
noticeably less with the Xer and younger generations. They are very
adept at pushing buttons and playing with technology, but have no real
understanding of history farther back than their own peer group. The
generations that say, “That was so five minutes ago”.
Much of this is by design. The school system does not emphasise true
learning and education, things that a well-rounded and educated person
should posses. If the government run school system did encourage real
learning and not just prep school for learning a trade, people would
not be so easily deceived and led like sheep.
But the reality is that the disinformation has gone on for so long
that it is much easier to point the finger of blame, just like someone
crying out racism to avoid having a real discussion on an issue. All
signs of immaturity regardless of the individual’s age.
To fix anything, one has to understand why it is broken. The U.S. is
still the best country in the world. To get back to our former
greatness as a nation, it is absolutely essential that we again strive
to be number one in education. As a people we must cherish our heritage
of freedom and the system of government we were founded with. If the
average person is too ignorant to comprehend the value of our system,
and lacks the ability to spot breakdowns and problems in it, then it
will not survive another generation. You get the government you
deserve. Responsibility rests with an educated and involved citizenry.
Emotion and anger will play no part in a real solution to the
problems we face as a nation. Without the ability to think with a cool
head and logically come up with viable solutions we are all lost. Be
part of the solution or part of the problem.
Sadly because of our own entrenched position in all of this , because
our secret service MI6 knows that we need the oil through the Afghan
pipelines, because of Britains position as primary currency
trader/paper shuffler in the city of London we know we need to maintain
the dollar at all costs, (Britian has somehow acquired 120,000,000,000
dollars of US debt in recent months , even though we are up to our own
necks in debt) , I am afraid we are in too deep to get out and anyone
who becomes prime minister will walk up the stairs at Number 10 look at
the portraits of Churchill, Thatcher,Disraeli et al. and believe they
too can run the world so they will not get out of those countries
because their stupid perverted ego’s won’t permit them.
we are cousins walking the same stupid path…..
we do have a few wise politicians in England
I implore you to watch this video
“Sorry for ranting on about that website but cmon. I just signed up for laughs and giggles and whats the first thing I see?
A Major Deflation is Approaching
- September 1998, at the bottom right of main page.
LOL I was making my first million in 1998 playing junior tech stocks and this guy was preaching deflation.
What a joke. ”
I think this is a valid criticism. Perma bears don’t make money, and
more importantly, a good investor (indeed a good PERSON) needs to avoid
infection. Please see
a little article from the Kirk Report today.
10. Infection: avoid the unhappy and unlucky. (This is right on the
money. I couldn’t have said this better myself. Who you surround
yourself with will ultimately determine your destiny. Marry for love,
choose your friends carefully, and spend time with people who’ve been
more successful and who are much smarter than you. Good and bad
emotional states are as infectious as a disease.)
If you hang around “the infected” you will catch the disease!
reckon the wave of retiring baby boomers will have an impact ont he
economy for sure. However, i do not think the finacial burden caused by
these retirees is the cause but the effect of lack of political
constraints regards the printing of FIAT paper to finance wars and all
the secret services etc , that are required to impliment and sustain
Our savings have been and are being eroded on a daily basis until we have no way of providing for our own future.
even as we have earned the pultry interest we are taxed on that also
…so income tax on top of the hidden inflationary silent tax…..OOOOOOH
When i first started thinking about retiring about 1980 you could have
been well on the way there with $100,000 in the bank at around 15%
interest. I was earning $18. hour in the oilpatch and could buy a new
v8 for about $7500.
So don’t give me that shit about it being the baby boomers fault!
Look to the Federal Reserve and the Central Banks and the Rich Elite
that control them . And most of all before you spew crap about the
boomers do your research!
Or are you suffering from McNosis also?
Adrian, i liked the video - I’ve seen articles about Galloway before -
nice that he is willing to stand up for the “little people” - I think a
topic that has come up here a lot is the trend toward the concentration
of power in the hands of the few and the ill effects that that has on
society at large. It seems blatant lying has become common place
anymore - of course since a “fish rots from the head down” we can
expect this corruption to spread downward - and I will have to admit in
the last 20-30 years I have seen politics and corruption spread deeper
and deeper down into the institutions in this country. Not a good omen,
but ya play the cards yer dealt, or as Rummy says “ya go to war with
the army you have…”
perhaps we are all “cousins walking the same stupid path…..”, and
perhaps we will someday learn a better way, hopefully - I suspect our
learning will be painful.
‘I’ve backed away quickly from those that would burn me.’ - Guy Clark
For those of you who believe that evil is somehow separate from your
world, when Vincent Bugliosi was prosecuting Charlie Manson, one day,
while in the court room, he noticed Charlie staring . Vincent looked at
his watch; it had stopped.
Charlie is such a kind soul. “I want to see bodies stacked as high as I can see.” - Charlie Manson
The State of California has a great deal of money invested in Charlie. He’s one boomer that went bust.
Vincent Bugliosi doesn’t have much good to say about the Bush whateveritis either.
I’ll write it down on paper: Vincent Bugliosi knows evil when he sees it.
Vincent doesn’t have very kind words for the Supreme Court either. No need to wonder why.
It’s enough to make a grown man cry.
out below #33 - That is broad brush you are painting with. I was born
just before the boomers; however, I’m sure your brush would extend to
include me, but that’s okay, I’ve got broad shoulders and can take it.
Actually, I’ve always been more like those that came before me, more a
saver than spender and willing to fight my own battles. Give me back
all I’ve put into those corrupt guvmnt plans and cut me loose and I’ll
be happy. You really should have read the well reasoned post of Rich,
#32, and zephyr, #29, before going over the deep end.
Thanks for the Galloway clip, It is nice to see someone speak the truth, not something seen here in America.
I suspect that we are witnessing the end of the Anglo-American axis.
Once again, thank you for your input, I appreciate your perspective
and it’s nice for the Americans to be exposed to truth periodically. It
is my sincere hope that they develop a taste for it.
Just a note on the boomer bashing that is going on in the thread.
As a boomer I have always wondered how a generation that experienced
Vietnam, Watergate, and the Energy Crisis could preside over our
current circumstances. Of course I also wondered why my generation
could ditch all the lessons learned of the 70’s and actively pursue the
empty Yuppie dream of hyper-consumption.
For my money we are living in Reagan’s dream world. He convinced
Americans that their own personal welfare was the only thing that
should matter to them. Freed of their conscience and certain of
America’s rightness in all it’s actions they sat back and watched the
Iran-Contra operation, the mining of Nicuarguan harbors, and all the
lies required to support it. It is no surprise that the felons who were
convicted of lieing are still employed in the government (Elliot
Abrams, John Poindexter et. al.)
The lies live on, yellow cake from Niger, WMD, 911. Anyone who
doesn’t understand this should watch the Scooter Libby trial very
For what it is worth. Not all of us bought it, in fact I despise it.
But regard blame as useless. It is time for us to stand together
against the lies. The PTB are counting on us fighting amongst ourselves.
Our Time and Energy is limited. It’s not time to fix blame, It’s time to fix the problem together.
Sapein 37 is that some satatnic cult???
Sapien 37 is that some satanic cult?
#57 I was into research about the power/corp elite long before Reagan;
boomer bashers re-read #45; if you can’t beat the boomers get them to
join in. Unfortunately most of them did - mortgages,kids,
taxes,taxes,taxes inflation. Oh did I mention taxes.
Just a thought for the boomer females did they really liberate women or put a new ball and chain around them (taxes).
fed has 2 tools ….volume of money and credit they create or the
interest charged on the money….i believe first as usual they will print
money and try to stimulate…when that fails they will lower rates and
when that fails….deflation is the default play occuring when people
stop major economic activity….the pushing on a string delema eventually
trumps money and credit printing policies…..real interest rates then
reverse and holding money is better than borrowing it for things that
The Fed is the tool.
It is the tool of its owners.
It’s owners are the families that also hold the controlling interest
in the major banks of the west, which in turn hold a lot of direct and
indirect influence over the largest corporations in the world.
So when you think about the Fed you need to also understand how it
is closely related to commercial banks and what they are doing. It’s
The Fed system is designed to give these banking families monopoly
control of the economy over time, that job is almost complete,
ironically, it would appear, right at the point that the US Dollar is
running out of steam and the system itself is going in to hyper
inflationary mode, albeit barely perceptibly to the common man at this
The way I understand the basic mechanism of the Fed itself it is
predestined to consume itself over time and have to reset. It’s like a
serpent that is consuming itself from the tail upwards towards it’s own
head. The more FRN’s (credit and dollars) the Fed creates the bigger
the system, the more the banking members benefit, the more their
monopoly increases, the more the dollar devalues. At the same moment
that they (the Fed owners) actually own everything the system hyper
inflates in to oblivion and forces a reset.
Any period of deflation over the course of running the system to
it’s end game, which produces totally monopoly control for it’s owners,
is purely a tactical device used to continue the veneer of legitimacy
the system needs to maintain in order for the sheeple never to
understand it (the Matrix).
The End Game is when the monopoly moves in to collect on the debt
owed by everyone in the system, either directly through mortgages and
loans, or indirectly by governments “backed” by the people (hehe!). We
are entering in to this period now. For collection to be made the
owners need to get tough at some point, that is where it gets ugly. But
they also need to perform a reset that enables them to now maintain
their total control without destabilizing the whole program, and
causing a revolution, etc. I guess we’re seeing the reset as the
Anyway, that’s (in a nutshell) how I see the Fed’s ability to
control Inflation, Deflation, Masturbation and Sterilization. Give it a
few more decades and they’ll control everything.
Could you talk more about the implications/situation around the coming “reset”.
What do you see as the best defense?
Good post brother,
(I didn’t know they were in charge of Masturbation too
Rich did you read that site posted by skeptical about Catherine Austin
Fitts - I’d say the Controllers have the enforcement/police system, the
prison system, the drug distribution and the weapon manufacturing on
their side - if ya put everyone in prison and force them to work for
below minimum wages producing for the Controllers, I’d say that is a
sweet deal - this coming “reset” may not mean go back to square one.
Kondratieff wave bottomed around 2000 (gold bottom), we have the
typical unpopular war and a commodities bull market. This is the cycle
of inflation. The cycle of disinflation (when paper assets rule) began
with the Volker hike in rates in the early 80’s, when gold collapsed.
So……lets do this all over again….for the next ?20 years.
professional commodity traders know the Fed is The Creature From Jekyll
Island. So? Play the inflation wave. T-bills at 5% will not get you
ahead of the curve. If USD drops below 80, switch currencies, buy more
gold…or both. Just understand that this is the secular commodity bull
market. The rest is beyond our control. It ain’t pretty….never has
been. The fact that the ’silent crash’ has still gone unnoticed by the
masses is good news for a continued bullish posture re: commodities.
They will wake up…..and that is when you distribute to them (as they
get manic), but it’s a long way off. Carpe diem!
dont know about all of this. I have heard the doom and gloom since the
70s. Technology has exploded and I think will change everything over
the next 10 years with explosive growth on the part of the United
States. The real problem is the loss of morals because of big brother
taking away parents rights to discipline The Romans lost their morals
and lost their country but as far as doom and gloom I am more optimist
am a boomer but I don’t feel guilty because I am still alive. My
generation takes a lot of heat because they questioned the value of
living the workaday life, the politics of the Cold War, America’s
imperialistic aspirations and Victorian moral system. The hated
directed at our generation for their stance resulted in violence,
family division, polarization and concomitant disaffection. But the
cultural influence forged by first-the Beat Generation, then later the
hippies, revolutionaries, and various liberation movements definitely
changed society, affording Generation X and Y many of the freedoms they
have today. What the youth today might not realize is that we Boomers
struggled also, working low-paying jobs, driving ancient cars, living
in low rent neighborhoods, going to school during the day and working
at night. When I drew my first paychecks I made $1.25 an hour. To
categorize us as a spoiled generation is absurd. Maybe Generation X and
Y hate us because they really hate themselves and all I can say to that
is “all you need is love”
The yearning to be free
This business of straightjacketing the economy with ‘free trade’ is getting old fast.
It is Statist in scope.
Maybe some are comfortable with the idea that a pogrom against
‘boomers’ is acceptable. Even potential genocide of ‘boomers’ is
entertained. That is Statist.
It is also as stupid as it gets.
Joseph Stalin would be your best friend. Joseph Stalin wouldn’t
blink an eye at sending you the the Gulag if you would look at him the
Here in America, the gulags continue. Unicor is the prison
industries that enriches those who choose to ‘think’ that it is ok to
‘rehabilitate’ ‘incorrigible recividists.’ In essence, have them work
PROGRAMMING PRISONERS TO FAIL
Seth found considerable incongruity in the way the education
department at Ft. Dix presents itself and the way things actually
stand. Administrators have covered the walls with platitudes that bear
no consistency with the type of behavior that the department-or the
entire prison system-encourages among its inmate population. Indeed, a
‘model inmate’ is one who performs unskilled labor in the prison
factory, one who never asks a question or presents any request out of
the ordinary. A model inmate will not seek to educate himself beyond
the very basic courses offered by the prison system.
For example, a prisoner may complete a three-month computer
program, which offers him enough time to learn basic word processing
and spread-sheet functions. But the prisoner will not be allowed to
learn more sophisticated software applications. And a model inmate
would not even try. A model inmate might learn about the principals of
sound investing, but in order to comply with an absurd system of rules,
he would never even consider applying what he has learned. A model
inmate might learn to express himself with words, but he would be
discouraged from publishing anything. Indeed, the model inmate should
never strive to distinguish himself in this Orwellian world of prison
Ambition, creativity, tenacity, all may be virtues that help an
individual succeed in Western civilization. Behind these prison gates,
however, such personal attributes give rise to indignation among many
staff members, some of whom are gifted in the arts of
vindictiveness-and they will tell you as much.
Who has really been dumbed down in this country? How can those in
government really believe that the population of souls, the poor
teeming masses yearning to be free, are there to serve them? How stupid
can you get to believe your own lies?
When the Puritans worked the hinterlands in England, it was for more
than survival. The Puritans were considered liberal during those times
from ca. 1400 to 1640 CE. They rejected the Anglican Church, basically,
the didn’t follow the edicts of the King. They rejected the Roman
Catholic Church. They weren’t buying into the baloney. They knew the
score. They couldn’t be fooled completely, just sometimes.
The Puritans were also tricked out of their money and belongings
many a time. A Danish sea captain promised to give a group of Puritans
passage to Denmark out of England. When they got to the port to board
ship, they were arrested, robbed, and imprisoned. The King, the State,
made it uncomfortable for the Puritans. They persevered. They scrimped
and saved, survived against all odds.
They yearned to be free… from the State.
Yearn to be free. The technological advances will even chip you… so you will chip in again and again and again and again.
Then you’ll never know how you got hoodwinked into being an
automaton. By then you’ll not notice a thing. The Silent Crash will be
complete. All charmed by McNosis. Don’t be fooled into thinking that it
can’t happen to you. It can.
Don’t be stupid. THINK
the hyperlinks didn’t take
Unicor prisoner life
hear so many people who are not part of the boomer demographic blaming
all the ills of the failing system on the boomers. Who brought the
boomers into the world? Who created the system we have all taken for
granted for so many decades? As a tail end boomer, I woke up to the
social security, medicare situation I would face and I have long
planned for a retirement that doesn’t include social security. Although
I have paid into it, to support not the retired years of my boomer
generation but the past and current retired years the ‘greatest
generation’,thanks to government greed and squandering what was meant
to be a trust but became simply another raidable public treasure chest.
I have earned my forty credits and more, I am planning on it either not
being there or being substantially slashed by the time I can collect
it. Most boomers have not planned for the worst but have placed their
faith in the system. They can not go back and live their lives over,
they placed their faith in a sytem created by a previous generation,
not theirs. I would gladly take a portion of what I would be paid in my
social security annuity in a small lump sum today and give up the claim
in the future in order to save it for those who haven’t had the
ability, time or opportunity to change course. The average majority of
social security recipients live for ten years after they begin
collecting. I would gladly take one third of my ten years in a lump sum
today to pad my current portfolio. perhaps the government should
consider a pay off to people like me to conserve for the impending
annuity pay out. medicare and health care for the boomer elderly is a
whole other enchilada that will require serious overhaul. radical
problems inevitebly require radical solutions, no matter how
far-fetched they sound at first.
report is entitled Converging Technologies for Improving Human
Performance, Using NanoTechnology, Biotechnology, Information Tecnology
and Cognitive Science, Please Read it, here are some tid-bits:
Implanted Human-Machine interfaces, (within 10-20 years),
Electronically Augmented Human Cognition ( 20 - 30 Years) “These new
technologies require DRASTIC changes in Education, Human Learning and
Memory.” Page 436, JUST Read it!! Inflation, Deflation, I don’t Know
But Ladies Gentelmen, TPTB have much bigger plans for control.
fairness as a “Boomer” (I quess 1953 qualifies) Kia, Muleskinner,
RandallT4 Zephyr, as usual outstanding posts, outstanding analysis, In
short can it be that genx or y or z or whatever they call themselves,
could it be that they now realize they all have been had by susch a
simple business-slavery model ala McDonalds: to wit “Hey Kid your’e now
a manager, your gonna make 50 Cents an hour more than everyone else,
You can fire them if you have too” Now of course we EXPECT you to go
the extra mile, take one for the team now and again, and of course as
manager you will be working a lot more than just 40 Hours a week” Yep
GE, Microsoft, Citi-Corp, Goldman-Sachs ALL Learned from Micky D make
em a manager. Yep us stupid Boomers, to think we actually questioned
the “man” to think we would actually not want to be managers for an
additonal 50 cents or whatever. Yea here we go I quess Richard Nixon
the POTUS who finally closed the gold window was a boomer, I quess King
George the First of Bushalia, the one who pushed NAFTA and GATT was a
Boomer, I quess Davey Boy Rockefeller who can’t wait till we all are
chipped is a Boomer. yea yea yea I can here those little Gen-X minds
now, in the work force a whole 5 years and already they have it all
figured out. “it’s it’s all the fault of those BOOMERS (or is it
Bloomers??)”we got to work 80 hours a week so they can get social
security” Yea Right come kid your a manager now….
apologies to ostrich and rich, i also meant to include your names in the above along with muleskinner, kia et-al
read the comments up to this point i tend to think that it is just
another avenue for letting off steam by many disgruntled people -
including myself. but what are we actually going to do that makes a
difference? Are we going to write to incumbent politicans and vent your
spleen? Are we going to protest on the streets especially at election
time? Are we going to hand out leaflets to the general populace
exposing ( in a factual, easy to read and objective manner) the
fraudulent manner of government and central banks? Just what are you
going to do? Most of you i suspect will just get a beer, kick the
dog and sigh ” that’s life” - i suggest you stop bitching or get on
with it - do something!!!
A program called Logans Run rings a bell
m1953 72 and 73, can’t get that report, help please. I do know it exists, I’ve heard about it.
Here’s some interesting stuff from the site you gave us on an earlier thread: http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2006/01/space-cadets.html
about how magnetic fields can make us travel faster than light. This is taken very seriously by the military: http://www.roswellproof.com/Gen_Wesley_Clark_UFOs.html
23, are you really saying that oil can be extracted from oil shale, tar
and sands cheaply and easily? Can you give us a reference? Were you
here when the stranger and others discussed this topic?
problem exists because an elite group benefits from the ability to
create mountains of debt without suffering the consequences. Pete
Peterson is a member of the financial elite who only cares about
preserving the value of Federal Reserve Notes.
Americans have been forced into borrowing to eat and protect their
assets from the effects caused by the beneficiaries of the current
system. Private, profit seeking companies are selling claims on the
assets and labor of the American people without their permission. This
The overnight solution to the problem is the elimination of legal
tender laws. Why not? The US would recover in a few years. Holders of
the resulting trash can take up the issue with the managers of private
businesses now run by Bernanke, Blankfein, Rubin, Dimon and Peterson to
name a few.
The collapse is coming. In the meantime, we can distract ourselves
by discussing fairtax, flat tax, tax increases, means testing and other
devices intended to keep the world financial criminal enterprise going
by stealing more from the American people. Anyone anxious to preserve
this system is suspect. Keeping the balls in the air will just delay
and amplify the inevitable destruction.
By the way, “the gold standard” is simply another fiat money scheme
that will be run by the same crooks we have now. We need to get
government out of the money definition business if this nonsense is
ever going to end.
A law punishing the issuance of promises to pay or deliver anything
but a good or a service is sorely needed. Notes promising to pay gold,
silver, platinum, palladium, copper, foodstuffs and services of all
kinds would circulate freely in such a legal environment. The value of
any note could be determined by calculations based on free market
transactions and the identity of the issuer.
Dr Jane, I will foward you a copy, it has email@example.com as the sender
Jane I sent it out now, it is in Adobe PDF format, I found your e-mail
address in post #411 of the “Does Fed want to stop deflation” Please
let us know if you recieved it
Jane yes that is what I am saying. My information comes from a private
source that I cannot easily transfer to this medium. Here are some
“The [shell oil co] ICP process involves drilling holes and
inserting electric heaters to gradually heat the rock over a long
period of time. This heating process causes the organic matter
(kerogen) trapped in the shale to be released as oil and gas, with the
heavy compounds partially converted into lighter end products, where
they are then recovered at the surface.
Shell oil is now doing this on a test site (in Colorado I think). Do
an internet search on “Shell ICP process” and read through what you
uuuuhhhhh, where is stranger???
Robert johns, Re: Most of you i suspect will just get a beer, kick the
dog and sigh ” that’s life” - i suggest you stop bitching or get on
with it - do something!!!
patience grasshopper, patience - all in due course - to solve a
problem one must be able to understand it - there are many parts to
this problem that are still being brought to light — darn younger
generation, so impatient, heh
johns, #77 Very Fair and Honest Question you ask, Yes I will
demonstrate and be vocal near and on Selection Day, No I will not write
to nor petition any of these lying theievs. They no longer listen they
could care less as long as the money roles in from the special
interests, they could care less who and why we vote. Look at how many
incumbnants were overturned this past november.Lets look at the recent
“victory” of the demo-pubs winning both Houses and with it the power to
supeona, Well all I heard from Madam (Mada is so appropraite in this
case) Speaker is: 1) Impeachement is off the Table, 2) “I want” (Madam
Pelosi that is) military transport for me and my familiy when i commute
from california to wash dc, I quess expecting her to travel first class
on a commercial flight is too much of a “security risk” Yeah right, she
may actually rub elbows with the serfs working 80 hours a week and we
can’t have that. yep last time i voted was for Ross Perot, He seems to
have been about 85% accurate in most of his predictions
Flip Flop it never stops
ladies and gentlemen, if I may proceed to give you some other words
that I think you can understand — I am not going to belabor you by
quoting tonight — I am going to tell you what the wise men of all ages
and all times, down even to the present day, have all said: That you
must keep the wealth of the country scattered, and you must limit the
amount that any one man can own. You cannot let any man own
$300,000,000,000 or $400,000,000,000. If you do, one man can own all of
the wealth that the United States has in it.
my friends, if you were off on an island where there were 100 lunches,
you could not let one man eat up the hundred lunches, or take the
hundred lunches and not let anybody else eat any of them. If you did,
there would not be anything else for the balance of the people to
we have in America today, my friends, a condition by which about 10 men
dominate the means of activity in at least 85 percent of the activities
that you own. They either own directly everything or they have got some
kind of mortgage on it, with a very small percentage to be excepted.
They own the banks, they own the steel mills, they own the railroads,
they own the bonds, they own the mortgages, they own the stores, and
they have chained the country from one end to the other, until there is
not any kind of business that a small, independent man could go into
today and make a living, and there is not any kind of business that an
independent man can go into and make any money to buy an automobile
with; and they have finally and gradually and steadily eliminated
everybody from the fields in which there is a living to be made, and
still they have got little enough sense to think they ought to be able
to get more business out of it anyway.
collapse that is coming will be blamed on Capitalism, and not the
semi-socialist, proto-fascist imperial globalization that it is. What
we have morphed into carries the old label, so that Capitalism (with
its embedded liberties) can be slain once and for all.
Off topic perhaps, but a segue for a misunderstanding of similar scale and heartache. Regarding Collapse, Zephyr (24) lays down the cause (baby-boomers), Look Out Below (33)
lays down the reaction/solution. I think these perspectives are
important; important because the truths they contain are compelling. I
disagree completely. Boomers are at the center of this death dance;
complicit yes, but not alone by far.
It’s sad to witness the relentless subversion of concepts. “Saving”
often spun as “hoarding” to give it that derogatory inflection. Can we
say the same for “entitlements?” I read, read, and read again about
retirements being stolen form the people that paid into them all their
working lives. They call it entitlements to give it an almost
pious flavor. And Social Security funding, taken out of your check
automatically, it is one of the biggest cons ever perpetrated. Funding
goes directly into the general fund and is spent; embezzled would be
more accurate. Had that money been put into silver or gold and actually
saved, the funding problem would not exist. The baby-boomers
were handed this scam, this Trojan Horse, after it was completely
built. They pay in, but will never pull out, being the last layer of an
inverted pyramid. I guess the contestants and directors of a Ponzi
scheme bare responsibility; but blaming only the losers?
Rich’s response (32) is good start to understanding the real cause. If you back up far enough, you’re back to Skep’s FDR comments;
and you could go back further. But if you can’t comprehend the economic
and ideological erosion over decades, you are susceptible to confusing
symptom with cause. You have no mental force-field to repel the
constant onslaught of platitudes aimed directly at the frontal lobe.
are important to me because, at a glance, they seem plausible. To
reiterate, I think this erroneous concept has legs. Look Out Below’s comments
are important to me because, quite frankly, the lynch mob has power. A
thought comes to mind - I wonder if I would have the composure to say,
“forgive them, they know not what they do.”
What to do, what to do?
The first question you must ask is this: Are you willing to die for the betterment of mankind?
If the answer is yes, as it should, then begin to take care of knowing yourself so you can accomplish the task.
One man alone can’t do it, but a union of dedicated men certainly can.
and I trade info sometimes in emails, and the comments below are mine
from one such exchange. Prechter has been brought up again on this
thread, so I though someone might find something useful in these
thoughts; my take after reading the EWI Theorist from December 2006.
Understanding Prechter is knowing that he is right; and wrong. I
think he is right about collapse, but he will never understand it. He
believes its cause is psychology; where as I believe changes in
psychology are just a measurable effect.
In the December EWI Theorist, Prechter is using a chart illustrating
how the DJIA is actually crashing, when measured in real money – gold,
rather than Dollars. Prechter is using this chart to show that his call
for a collapse was in fact right.
And he is dead-on correct to do so, but this flies in the face of
his eternal call for gold to collapse. If gold had collapsed, how could
he be correct, much less demonstrate it?
Next, and disregarding the last paragraph, Prechter demonstrates how
the DJIA and NASDAQ are falling against the CRB Commodities Index.
Again, the stock crash is obvious, and the waves are fairly accurate I
believe, because the chart spans decades.
In the case of the excellent CRB comparison, using accurate but
incomplete information, is a potential disservice to the reader. The
reader gets a lesson in the usefulness of the CRB, but is not informed
that it has radically changed.
As Adam Hamilton demonstrates, in the old index all component
commodities were equally weighted and geometrically averaged. But the
5.9% to 23.0% increase in oil weighting and the change to arithmetic
averaging, removing excessive smoothing, is no less than massive.
On page five we are treated to a chart titled, “Peak-oil or
Peak-price.” The US Strategic Reserve is slated to be doubled as demand
for oil rises as discovery of oil falls. This as the dollar loses value
in a hundred year trend. How long will it take for Prechter to be wrong
on this call? Weeks I expect.
On page six, he tries to use the latest crude and gasoline prices,
in a Dow Theory Conformation mode without mentioning well published
index changes here as well. Further Prechter points to the collapsing
indexes of Qatar & Saudi Arabia in 2006. I read it twice and have
no idea what he thought this meant. Did he think that the King of
commodities is headed for a bear market? I think he did, but earlier
commodities were his ally.
He continues with charts for gold and oil, correctly demonstrating
that most of the price increase for oil is nominal; that is, monetary
inflation induced. Personally, I agree completely with this view and
expect the supply-demand aspect to kick in soon and give us real all
time highs for crude. To Prechter, books on Peak-oil reflect investor
psychology driven by the price of oil. The concept of someday not
producing as mush as the day before is dismissed out-of-hand. To recap
- peak for oil wells, peak for Texas, peak-oil in general; oils wells
are discovered, tapped, pumped, then abandoned. Simple as it gets.
Technology can’t change those fundamentals.
I’m expecting a collapse and by definition that is deflating. I’m
still grasping for a model. But Prechter seems to think the dollar will
be in tack when it’s over; with bonds and FRNs high in value due to
scarcity. I don’t know that that has to happen; it is a con game. Antal
Fekete makes a convincing argument for that case as well. Inflation is
massive now, but not hyper-inflationary yet. I’m still thinking gold
and silver will fall in price, but only after they have adjusted for
decades of manipulation.
I think the important thing is making the right moves on our way to
collapse, as things become increasingly volatile. To us it’s slow,
we’re watching it. But we know we will have to be solid as hell by the
time it actually hits.
the stranger Says:
February 4th, 2007 at 10:34 am
“To us it’s slow, we’re watching it.”
the stranger Says:
February 4th, 2007 at 10:34 am
“To us it’s slow, we’re watching it.”
Prechter is right, the problem is that he does not undertand the
timing of it. The crash will come only where the preassure of the
physical elements of it are not able to be diverted with papery
There is a point where the common man needs to eat before servicing his debts.
Welcome to the Globalized Company Store!
our current circumstance reminds me of sitting on my board between
sets, and watching the huge slope of the largest wave i’ve ever seen
building. i can see it out there, i know that i can’t paddle out of
it’s way, but i don’t know if i have the necessary cojones to ride it
with style. patience is the master sport.
Glad you got over your reticence to post, don’t sweat the writing skills, your ideas are worthy of expression.
Could you expand on the “right things”?
Go here and load up God Bless America
Turn up the music loud and dance.
Headline: Employee microchip tracking bill discussed
A business in Ohio required some employees to be microchipped.
Even some newborns are being microchipped.
Isn’t monitoring your activities more or less slavery?
Who said it here awhile back? I can’t remember, I have CRS disease.
“When freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will be free.”
Outlaws with toothbrush mustaches, me thinks.
That skillumati site is thought crime.
“Arbeit Macht Frei”
Pass the sodium flouride please.
I spent over two hours today removing a spyware and two viruses. The dirty, filthy, no good swine.
‘Vie have our vays’
Yeah, and microchipping is one of them.
Thanks for the prison link. It is stunning to think about the
astronomical waste of money incarcerating non-violent drug offenders
keep it up,
Sapiens, stranger - good to have you back in the game - darn ante just keeps getting bumped higher
kia, yeah, I watched a couple surfing movies awhile back - North
Shore during a storm surge…some die, some ride the wave, some don’t try
- I don’t think we will have much of a choice whether to try or not,
hehe - may we all be able to ride the coming storm wave — that McMurtry
song rocks, heh — if it weren’t for music I figure I’d go nuts, er…and
no, I haven’t
25 crisp silver certificates only 289.99, with shipping and handling, it comes to 318 USD.
Silver certificates are no longer redeemable for silver coin or bullion, so somebody is going to get the short end of the stick.
Oh,I was wrong, it’s only 289.98 with 12.99 in shipping and handling. So, it’s a bargain afterall.
I’d go to ebay and buy them, they cost much less. It only costs about two dollars to buy one dollar over there. Not bad.
how do you know? I mean how can you really know? How can you really be sure?
“right things”…with Prechter?
muleskinner; Liberty Dollar might be a better choice for silver receipts.
Yeah, that’s about what I think sapiens. Thanks bp, hard to keep up -
get pulled away… yes, patience weedhoppers, patience. Rich, “reset”
analogy is a good way to put it. The elite can’t stop it(step out of
the way maybe) it’s built in. It’s just that there are more than one
TPTB. It’s the most dangerous this time around.
“I think the important thing is making the right moves on our way to collapse, as things become increasingly volatile”
Excuse me, right moves,
The Next Wave is upon us
???Right moves, right moves…
In a major collapse, first thing you’ll need is luck; but chance favors the prepared mind.
Well, the system has impoverished a great number of people, through
inflation among other things. But we’re reaching the “reset” point.
Houses don’t double in a year or two normally; for example. But
property inflates unevenly in value; some could have cashed in and
relocated; to be in a better spot or out of debt. If you risked 30k and
bought mining stocks in 2001, you may be out of debt now. I have
friends with enough in their 401Ks to pay off all their debt. I think
that would be a right move; but I can’t prove it to them and I could be
wrong. Try to understand this surreal moment in history (albeit years)
and use it to your advantage. The right moves vary for each person. But
it’s all a gamble – life’s a gamble.
I consider it Luck to even be aware of (to some degree) what is
happening; in spite of the amount of work it requires. And I think it
is flat out wrong that the system is cheating people. A medical doctor
doing great things in the community may have no concept of these things
we ponder. So he could lose, and he shouldn’t. But, I try to figure out
what the right moves are anyway, because that’s my job – provide and
protect my family; and maybe because my mind is always looking for a
solution to this predicament.
let’s hope your mind finds one.
right moves vary… stored food, colloidal silver, plan B, C, D and E.
Hell, I would have been smarter to ignore your question. Great
article Kia, it’s worth clicking over just to see the Campbell’s Iraq War Soup pic. Bp, that’s where I’ve been; article after article, blog after blog on the Iran build up. Here is a well thought out chain of events to ponder at LATOC.
read several replies and found one who had it right. #39.It is a fixed
game.it is just the terratory that gets bigger as consolidation grows,
culimating in the Forth Reich, nearly there folks. Always played with
the same old rule of ‘Divide and Conquer’,the Us and Them’s keep
growing,..One generation reproaching another,one religion against
another(this time Christian against Muslim),anthing to keep our eyes
off the real crime, the relentless dumbing down of the sheeple so they
don’t know how or are easily cowered into non resistance to the last
and final major play, which is the coming Global Depression were the
Super Oligarcy families and Multinationals will clean up for the usual
‘pennies on the dollar’.
The rich think that the trouble with the poor is that they have too much money,really!
We WILL be micochiped by the insanely greedy Illuminazi’s who brought
us global warming which will kill off the unwanted straving billions
and keep the rest of us in fear of a lifetime of labour, enforced or
otherwise in our crumbling cities or their prison camps.
It don’t (doesn’t) look good.
Sometimes the hyperlink doesn’t work.
stranger #107, the info is coming so fast it’s hard to digest…don’t forget, you can’t go swimming for an hour after eating, hehe
Maybe the RFID tags can be compromised. All of that work for nothing.
We perform bug sweeps like it’s a contact sport; we don’t play fair, we
take no prisoners, and we give no quarter. Our goal is to stop the spy.
…crack me up bp, but I already got gills.
muleskinner, that’s an interesting link…
up fellow Boomers! If you are over 50 and fat…get off your padded
behind and walk, run, jog, climb out of your sedentary lifestyle. Or,
you can continue as you have and die when the drug stores close down
and your insulin, htn meds, etc. are gone. In the meantime (while
working off your second self) get your finances fixed! Sell the big car
and the big house and move to the country. Plant a garden, get out of
debt, store some food and gold. The life you save will be your own and
those you love!
The beer I drink other than my own.
paper available by clicking on the link below is well wothwhile
reading. A suggestion about competing currencies initially proposed by
Hayek is discussed towards the end of the paper. I found the aticle
refreshingly frank and upfront. One can find asignoficant number of
examples illustrating that fiat currencies are essentally unstable
Federal Reserve Insider Shares Crucial Insights About Interpreting Monetary Policy
Dr. Jerry Jordan, former President & CEO
Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland, Tel (216) 410-8771
Click here for the complete publication.
Release Date: May 31, 2005
Vancouver, BC - Jerry L. Jordan, a Senior Fellow at The Fraser
Institute, and former president and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of
Cleveland, has provided valuable new information about the role of
money in the modern economy. In a new monograph, Money and Monetary
Policy for the 21st Century, Jordan provides for the first time in
print a clear understanding of how the quality and quantity of money
change and are changed by economic developments.
For Fed watchers, Jordan’s paper provides a unique source of
understanding about the objectives of monetary policy and how the Fed
reacts to variations in economic conditions. His explanation of
Monetary Policy Neutrality provides a valuable barometer against which
the activities of the Fed can be judged to know whether the policy
being set is expansionary, neutral or contractionary.
Jordan’s monograph also has broader insights about monetary policy
and what the Fed and the Bank of Canada can and cannot do. Noting that
while modern economies cannot function without financial stability and
the basic requirement of a stable currency, this is insufficient to
ensure an economy’s success. Central banks’ control over inflation will
only ensure economic success if there is a foundation of enforceable
property rights, generally accepted accounting principles and sound
Speaking to the issue of how central banks can keep interest rates
low, Jordan pointed out, “There is only one monetary policy that can
produce low interest rates: a policy of stable money. Once people start
to expect the value of money to erode, observed interest rates can also
be expected to rise. Any attempts to resist these natural market
dynamics artificially will only make matters worse.”
“The important point is that frequent changes in the prices of
things and changes in market interest rates are normal occurrences in a
market economy and an understanding of how and why they are changing is
important to both policy-makers and the rest of us,” he stated.
Jordan notes that money has evolved over the past few centuries and
that the current trend to using electronic credits and debits as the
dominant payment mode has created the potential for private money to
compete with government-issued currencies. He notes that the
competition between private and government monies around the world may
help produce stable and uniform currencies.
Posted as food for thought
THE INTERNET AND THE END OF MONETARY SOVEREIGNTY
by Bill A. Frezza
Wireless Computing Associates
Here are a few more articles which may be of interest- what do you guys think?
ELECTRONIC MONEY AND MONETARY POLICY: SEPARATING FACT FROM FICTION
by Bert Ely
Ely & Company
E-MONEY: FRIEND OR FOE OF MONETARISM?
by George Selgin
University of Georgia
THE NEW MONETARY UNIVERSE AND ITS IMPACT ON TAXATION
by Richard Rahn
post 117 - the “significant examples” referred are not found in the
article - they refer to those events that came to my mind as i read it.
in case some of you think that the US has sound financial institutions
what do say about the fact that JP Morgan and Ciigroup have some 100
trillion dollars of derivatives and do you think Fanny Mae and Fanny
Mac are sound financial institutions? Total worldwide derivates is
about 400 trillion USD.The annual total value of all goods and services
produced in the USA (GDP)is about 11 trillion- make hay while the sun
well, there is no certainty to even the very next second.
But, there is, “always”, expectation as to the next second.
So, where do we go from here? the very next second of expectation? do you see what i mean?
we forget, that in the course of human events, there are surprises
and causes linked together, causes orchestrated to a large degree to
have an outcome for some selfish benefit to those doing the Grand
Orchestration, and surprises totally unforseen (relative to
It is the awareness of the possibility (actually probability) of
surprises, that even the Grand Orchestrations must bow to, that in many
efforts is the very restraint for a rash change attempt. So, within the
change movements put in place is the actual “seeds” of failure, because
it is literally impossible to measure, and more to the point, control
human individual and collective behavior. In a free society, such
measure and control is impossible totally;only a sampling is actually
possible, for many reasons.
Ok then, what now for the systems and programs built in the world to feed the need by a relative few for power and control?
Inadvertently, a very large intellectual population exists with the
general population, unlike former times, that is very hard to pinpoint
(except some obvious professions/scientific communities)and this
population, at this very moment, has a parallel program converging on
the would be CFR’s of the world. It is not centralized, and the
participants are largely unknown, but they are there…..THIS is the
surprise, among other key factors, that will allow the “good” to win
out in this current situation.
obsession with financial affairs (money, debt, savings, gold, taxes,
mortgages etc) makes us all blind for one fundamental fact. All western
societies live a life which can not be sustained in the long term. This
has nothing to do with boomers, retirement, generation X or social
security etc. It has much to do with the exhaustion of natural
resources on which our life quality depends. The decline of US oil
production since 1970 is the ultimate explanation for the war in Iraq,
the weak Dollar, the loss of manufacturing jobs which in turn cause a
pension crisis. The retirement of boomers is not the problem. It is
only a symptom of a much more fundamental problem. The problem we are
facing is the collapse of industrial civilization due to resource
exhaustion. The retirement crisis of the boomers is in comparison a
fake problem. People will continue to work until they die. Any other
solution is an illusion designed only to feed the parasites on Wall
I constantly am taken aback at the quality of minds and observations
that come here! I don’t agree with everyone, or know enough to disagree
with some, but i have seen very few here who not given an _honest_ look
at life. How has our civilization remained so ignorant in the presence
of these thoughful, considered, and wonderful people? People who know
that you can’t receive without giving and that balance is not
desireable, but inevitable. We don’t know what the future holds, but
take our individual responsibilities with care.
To repeat a comment made in the previous thread:
be thankful, it is the lamp that lights the darkness - you can see clearly once your eyes adjust. . .
studied medicine..as such,i clearly did not study what the majority of
you did…things like economics and buisness ect…however,i come back to
this thread frequently and continue to learn a tremendous
amount…perhaps some things that i do know can be applied from medical
studies to shed light on why politicians and economists are so capable
of such manipulated premeditated destructive policy
actions….basically,i see no fundemental diagnostic scheme in any policy
approaches……….in health care when a patient presents you need to
progress from identifying the acute issues to the not obvious chronic
issues….then once things are stabilized…if you practice as i do…you try
to have the person embrase life strategies that promote health and
discourage pre-mature preventable degenerative changes….by identifying
all the environmental,lifestyle,family histories,ect…an honest work up
results and a treatment plan can be developed….the patient may or may
not wish to comply or may partially comply….but the key is this…the
risks are assessed and solutions are pursued to enhance the wellness of
that individual…also,bluntlty stated,if the recommendations are
ignored, i explain the deleterious consequences that can and probably
will unfold or heighten in probability of occuring…i choose this
approach even though that truth and reality offends some folks and they
choose an other provider who will be smiling nice and sell them pills
and ignore the long term health of the individual….so, what i see in
the government, is the refusal to workup the case so to speak…since all
the facts that are dispensed are lies and distortions and that the
condition of the economy is gravely chronically ill and
premorbid,well….emergency innervention is indicated to allow for full
recovery…the rulers of this lie and scam can never allow an honest
workup and evaluation of the ailing patient that their policies both by
design and default created…..the patient is basically being fed (fed
pills) to keep the economic heart ticking 4 hours per dose…cardiac
arrest is imminent and no one gets rewarded for making the diagnosis
that an emergency quadruple bypass is immediately indicated…that would
indicate faulty preventitive measures in managing this important
patient…….also, following will be years of physical therapy and
hopefully the patient will survive long enough to educate it’s children
of how to prevent this avoidable situation…but,they do as most doctors
do…blame it on some other exogenous event or mysterious invisible
genetic predisposition…lie….it is all preventible… except for the fear
and greed that is the precursor to it all
#123, ahhh….the atmosphere is heavy with expectation, we can feel it
like the impending storm to come, this “surprise” you speak of seems
like a catalyst that will drop the suspended precipitate in a flash — I
tend to agree with you…but who knows for sure what the future holds -
any guessing is based on “what is” and figuring probabilities (usually
a linear proposition that), not “what will be” - but some can see “what
is” clearer, and some know some knowns others don’t - those darn
orchestrators seem to be holding some cards in reserve they haven’t
played yet - but as you say…even they do not have absolute control - to
be it is like reaching a bifurcation point, we either ratchet up to a
higher level of functioning, or we descend to a lower level - so what
do you think this “parallel program” is???…and don’t go all Indigo
Children on me, heh
#124 Robert Sczech, hm, I agree that the retirement of boomers is
not the problem, but I’m not so sure scarcity is either - my guess is
the problem goes deeper, maybe michael #123 has something to say about
that maybe a whole new frame of reference is the “surprise” he alludes
This may be pertinent to comment #123
my first attempts to popularize Dr. Leary’s work, I called these
tendencies “neophilia” (creative) and “neophobia.”(conformist) I have
more recently decided that infophilia and infophobia have more
generality and describe the associated habits more broadly. The pure
infophobe (represented not too badly by most “respectable” law-abiding
citizens anywhere) obsessively avoids exotic foods, exotic ideas,
exotic clothing, exotic people, “dern foreigners,” new technology,
innovative art or music, tabu subjects, originality, creativity etc.
Sen. Exon, Sen. Gramm, most of Congress, Theodore Roszack and Unibomber
represent various styles of compulsive infophobic imprints. The pure
infophile remains a relatively rare person at this primitive stage of
evolution. The infophile seeks out the new and exotic in food, ideas,
clothing, technology, art — everywhere. Picasso, Joyce, Niels Bohr,
Bucky Fuller and all the murdered heretics and innovators of history
represent extreme infophiliac imprints.”
Bell’s Theorem demonstrated a connection-or-correlation between
systems that are not causally related. That is, it entirely contradicts
an assumption which governed science from Newton to Einstein–the
assumption that all scientific laws must express a kind of
“billiard-ball” model of the world, in which every moving ball is only
influenced by the balls with which it collides. Bell’s math
demonstrated that some sort of non-local “field” or perhaps an
“implicate order” controlled the balls even if they had no mechanical
connection with each other.
Nick Herbert liked to call this non-local relationship “the Cosmic Glue.”
Saul Paul Sirag, another physicist, showed me a paper by Dr. E.H.
Walker, “The Compleat Quantum Anthropologist,” which argued that mind,
like quantum systems, functions non-locally. This made sense to me
because all systems that divide mind from matter lead to intractable
paradoxes. It also made sense because it gave me, for the first time, a
model that could explain some of my more “cosmic” LSD experiences. Dr.
Walker’s paper started me thinking in terms of a Local Self, inside
space-time, and a Non-Local Self, outside space-time. This may have
been what the Zen Master, Sensaki, meant when he spoke of Little Mind
and Big Mind. Such a model not only accounted for LSD voyages but it
also made a good container for all the confusing phenomena which
parapsychologists put into separate bags and call ESP, precognition,
out of body experience, synchronicity–all the strange “psychic” events
that have dogged me all my life (which I can no longer attribute to the
Atheist’s God, Mr. Random Chance).
In terms of Walker’s interpretation of Bell’s Theorem, all of these
non-Newtonian aberrations merely represent sudden information flow from
Non-Local Mind to Local Mind.
Robert Anton Wilson, Cosmic Trigger II, 1991
Skinner, you and i together would throw a hell of a party.
don’t know what i meant by that, i just want to drink some of your
beer. I really don’t think its good to encourage others to use drugs,
especially speaking of powerful drugs for “recreational” purposes. Not
that i’m opposed to their use. . . but the party mentality has damaged
a lot of people in recent decades. ‘Course so has ignorance of economic
functions by the masses, but i digress. Like i said, i just was trying
to think of a clever way to get some of your beer.
well, there is no certainty to even the very next second.
But, there is, “always”, expectation as to the next second.
So, where do we go from here? the very next second of expectation?
So, where do we go from here? the very next second of expectation?
#129, muleskinner - that about says it all, hehe
was not my intent or inference with the post. I will digress. It has
been postulated that the Salem ‘witches’ were eating rye bread that had
traces of ergot in the bread. Ergot is rye rust that is the natural
substance used for the LSD.
Siegfried Gottlieb, Frank Olson, and MK Ultra stuff, you know. I’ll stop there.
The discussion of oils has been covered extensively.
I’ll switch to water.
Water will help stop the McNosis. Drink more water.
thanks to all the new contributors or those that have contributed more
on this thread than on past threads. Tons of great stuff here from lots
of thoughtful people, and i’m enjoying all of it. Keep in touch folks!
Just my two cents.
All western societies live a life which can not be sustained in the
long term. This has nothing to do with boomers, retirement, generation
X or social security etc. It has much to do with the exhaustion of
natural resources on which our life quality depends.
(First, i agree with everything else that was said in #124, but:)
One of my biggest problems with “modern” man or “modern”
civilization is this myth (myths are very deep and powerful, most of
the time operating well below the radar) that “quality of life” has
something to do with resource consumption, or use.
To me, the salient point is when someone says, “there’s more to life than money.” Or, “money doesn’t buy happiness.”
Observe the aboriginals of Australia, or the Native Americans
pre-colonial (and post-their-violent-ancestors). The quality of life,
family, society, and spitituality that they enjoy has _nothing_ to do
with consumption of resources. It has only to do with their respect for
life, human and otherwise. They are clean people, but they don’t need
plumbing, sewage, or chemical factories to live that way. And they are
clean because of an innate understanding of life. Those people
literally have everything without leaving a single lasting footprint on
In my mind, the quality of life of these earth-based societies is
lightyears beyond a man who has plumbing and a car and a cellphone -
but can’t put them down for even a day, or a week. Furthermore, many of
those societies made CONSIOUS DECISIONS not to pursue technology.
Modern man looks at these indigenous cultures as primitive. But they
can only be considered this by a man who ties the consumption of
resources with quality of life.
There is a balance to be struck. Modern technology will not just go
away over night. It may be forced to subside over the next couple of
centuries, but what is here is here. There is a balance to be struck,
but that balance is FAR from where we are.
If you can’t let go of modern life for a week, either the physical
niceties or the mental self-congratulation, you are a slave. Keep in
mind that i do not criticize what i haven’t done myself. But in my
skills is the awareness that i can be independant and choose to “play
the game.” If you don’t beleive me you can pay me to go out into the
forest sometime and show you what is available to man without anything
more than a good knife. Along the way i’ll tell you the stories of how
a civilization can prosper without anything more than a couple more
We need to re-define within ourselves what “quality of life,” really
means. If the industrial age is getting closer to an epitome of human
development, then i’d consider our race as a destructive parasite. But
i know the stories of beings within human bodies who strived for
something altogether different: spiritual peace and development. This
led to emotional, mental, and physical development. Perhaps obviously,
this is _my_ definition of “quality of life.” To that end, Americans,
and all modern societies are flushing themselves down the sewage system
of the spiritual universe.
sorry for ruining your point muleskinner, but nonetheless i thought
what was being said in your #129 was an excellent analysis about this
area of psychology/sociology. My immaturity made it hard to refrain
from a party-dude comment.
p.p.s. i’m still thinking about your beer
Let me add this to #135 for those who haven’t read my past posts:
Within spiritual development of a person or a society comes the need
to face violence. Reaching higher levels sometimes requires what most
would call violence. There are, indeed, violent people in the world.
Ignoring this, or downplaying likely results in peril for you, or your
loved ones. Strive to be a master of yourself, be patient with others.
And be flexible, but don’t be a pushover. A human should be a strong
bamboo shoot, not a blade of grass. Bamboo makes a strong house, grass
just gets eaten up.
I have read the material on the Sunburn missiles before. If they are
true, then how can the US Navy be heading into anything but a Sea of
Fire? I guess they are going to learn why they call it the Red Sea.
Thanks for the link.
real McNosis: Prescription medications are advertised on television
like cigarettes were before cigarette commercials were banned.
Is this why there are so many prescription medications advertised on the idiot box?
Psychological Warfare Drugs
(Court Records, FOIA Documents, General Accounting Office investigations)
experiments were conducted on soldiers at Edgewood Arsenal for 16
years. Many of the “victims” claim that the drug permanently affected
their lives in a negative way. It so disorientated one paratrooper that
he was found taking a shower in his uniform and smoking a cigar. BZ was
eventually put in hand grenades and a 750 pound cluster bomb. Other
configurations were made for mortars, artillery and missiles. The bomb
was tested in Vietnam and CIA documents indicate it was prepared for
use by the U.S. in the event of large-scale civilian uprisings.
Vacaville, psychosurgery has long been a policy. In one set of cases,
experimental psychosurgery was conducted on three inmates, a black, a
Chicano and a white person. This involved the procedure of pushing
electrodes deep into the brain in order to determine the position of
defective brain cells, and then shooting enough voltage into the
suspected area to kill the defective cells. One prisoner, who appeared
to be improving after surgery, was released on parole, but ended up
back in prison. The second inmate became violent and there is no
information on the third inmate.
also administered a “terror drug”, Anectine, as a way of “suppressing
hazardous behavior”. In small doses, Anectine serves as a muscle
relaxant; in huge does, it produces prolonged seizure of the
respiratory system and a sensation “worse than dying”. The drug goes to
work within 30 to 40 seconds by paralyzing the small muscles of the
fingers, toes, and eyes, and then moves into the the intercostal
muscles and the diaphragm. The heart rate subsides to 60 beats per
minute, respiratory arrest sets in and the patient remains completely
conscious throughout the ordeal, which lasts two to five minutes. The
experiments were also used at Atascadero.
mind altering drugs were originally developed for non-psychoactive
purposes. Some of these drugs are Phenothiazine and Thorzine. The side
effects of these drugs can be a living hell. The impact includes the
feeling of drowsiness, disorientation, shakiness, dry mouth, blurred
vision and an inability to concentrate. Drugs like Prolixin are
described by users as “sheer torture” and “becoming a zombie”.
Veterans Administration Hospital has been shown by the General
Accounting Office to apply heavy dosages of psychotherapeutic drugs.
One patient was taking eight different drugs, three antipsychotic, two
antianxiety, one antidepressant, one sedative and one anti-Parkinson.
Three of these drugs were being given in dosages equal to the maximum
patient was taking seven different drugs. One report tells of a patient
who refused to take the drug. “I told them I don’t want the drug to
start with, they grabbed me and strapped me down and gave me a forced
intramuscular shot of Prolixin. They gave me Artane to counteract the
Prolixin and they gave me Sinequan, which is a kind of tranquilizer to
make me calm down, which over calmed me, so rather than letting up on
the medication, they then gave me Ritalin to pep me up.”
lasts for two weeks. One patient describes how the drug does not calm
or sedate nerves, but instead attacks from so deep inside you, you
cannot locate the source of the pain. “The drugs turn your nerves in
upon yourself. Against your will, your resistance, your resolve, are
directed at your own tissues, your own muscles, reflexes, etc..” The
patient continues, “The pain grinds into your fiber, your vision is so
blurred you cannot read. You ache with restlessness, so that you feel
you have to walk, to pace. And then as soon as you start pacing, the
opposite occurs to you, you must sit and rest. Back and forth, up and
down, you go in pain you cannot locate. In such wretched anxiety you
are overwhelmed because you cannot get relief even in breathing.”
Doctor Jose Delgado: “Man does not have the right to develop his own mind.”
(Congressional Record, New York Times)
a program of psychosurgery for political control of our society. The
purpose is physical control of the mind. Everyone who deviates from the
given norm can be surgically mutilated.
individual may think that the most important reality is his own
existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks
not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal
orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain.
Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electric stimulation
of the brain.”
were the remarks of Dr. Jose Delgado as they appeared in the February
24, 1974 edition of the Congressional Record, No. 262E, Vol. 118.
Dr. Delgado’s outlandish statements before Congress, his work was
financed by grants from the Office of Naval Research, the Air Force
Aero-Medical Research Laboratory, and the Public Health Foundation of
Delgado was a pioneer of the technology of Electrical Stimulation of
the Brain (ESB). The New York Times ran an article on May 17, 1965
entitled Matador With a Radio Stops Wild Bull. The story details Dr.
Delgado’s experiments at Yale University School of Medicine and work in
the field at Cordova, Spain. The New York Times stated:
sunlight poured over the high wooden barriers into the ring, as the
brave bull bore down on the unarmed matador, a scientist who had never
faced fighting bull. But the charging animal’s horn never reached the
man behind the heavy red cape. Moments before that could happen, Dr.
Delgado pressed a button on a small radio transmitter in his hand and
the bull braked to a halt. Then he pressed another button on the
transmitter, and the bull obediently turned to the right and trotted
away. The bull was obeying commands in his brain that were being called
forth by electrical stimulation by the radio signals to certain regions
in which fine wires had been painlessly planted the day before.”
to Dr. Delgado, experiments of this type have also been performed on
humans. While giving a lecture on the Brain in 1965, Dr. Delgado said,
“Science has developed a new methodology for the study and control of
cerebral function in animals and humans.”
If they are true, then how can the US Navy be heading into anything but a Sea of Fire?
When did they stop teaching Sun Tzu at the military academy? I’m
sure it had something to do with somebody thinking that the great
technolgy made being a person obsolete (there they go again).
Its quite humorous how we can place the MinuteMen on such a pedestal
for innovative techniques, passion, and basic guerilla warfare to
defeat the greatest army in the world - then get all our technology
tossed out of Vietnam by a bunch of guys with pijamas and passion -
then make the same fucking underestimation again in Iraq.
Well, its humorous if you can overlook the devestation, corruption, and waste of life and materials.
My advice, pick up the latest edition of “The Art of War.”
(get it? the latest edition? . . . i kill me sometimes)
Water invented life to Transport Itself Around - Tom Robbins
“Water invented life to Transport Itself Around.”
think of “life” and water as interchangeable. To examine water is to
realize that it is much more than simply “an amazing substance.”
To all: Drink Lots of Water
Y’know, i’ve read that some “doctors” advise _against_ drinking “too
much water?” Even to say that “8 cups a day is too much?” Holy fucking
shit. When i saw that it really strengthened my resolve against the
allopathic paradigm and where it leads the mind. Freaking idiots some
what is the code you use to produce the boxes?
Take a gander at this:
kia, i just gandered that.
I don’t even know what to say. . .
Do we anticipate an eventual revolution or mass slavery? The PTB are
shoving thier power and influence right in our GD faces. “We’re gonna
keep leadin’ all y’all down the path of servitude and those of you that
know can’t do a thing about it.”
kia, what i once wondered, i pass along:
to block quote:
i’m hoping i can explain,
at the beginning of the quote you type “” (if i type it, the reader will do it and you won’t be able to see the code)
at the end of the quote, its “”
so the command is “blockquote” and at the end you put a fore-slash in front “/blockquote”
you encapsulate the command with the “” so the reader does the command instead of printing the command in the post
ahhhh! the reader doesn’t print the symbol!
the symbols are the greater-than and less-than signs.
“less-than symbol” “blockquote” “greater-than symbol”
at the beginning of the quote, and
“less-than symbol” “/blockquote” “greater-than symbol”
notice the fore-slash before “blockquote” in the ending command
. . . i should have given you the link like sapiens did for me but
it’d take me a while to find it. there’s more commands i’m sure to
fancy the posts up. i’m mostly no-frills but i do like those
thanks, i’ll take that link when you have it,
i’d like to clean up my posts if i can.
ahhhh! the reader doesn’t print the symbol!
thanks makia-sensi, hehe
line through text
I try not to make it too McNotic.
#144 - “We’re gonna keep leadin’ all y’all down the path of servitude
and those of you that know can’t do a thing about it.”
At this moment in time I think the sheeple will be lead down any path the talking heads take them.
If you recall on one of the earlier threads when we were first discussing Ron Paul I said LONG LIVE THE TOWNHALL.
I am sure you are aware of and probably have read James howard Kunstler, read todays dissertation
North America really has to start a grass roots movement and as
Kunstler says get off your ass and get started. I believe many of the
people posting here are the type of humans that can begin our own
little “counter revolution” or at least start preparing some of the
sheeple about the possible outcomes to be played out in the near future.
I’ll get off the soap box now.
I came accross something I had not seen in 20+ years and I was wondering what some of the bloggers thought about Technocracy.
“counter revolution” may be a shitty term, but you get the drift.
i’m not afraid of death, but i am afraid of a waste of life. Using
terms like “revolution”, i just don’t want to draw attention. I know
this: i have been fucking sick of the hypocricy of the leadership (and
the masses) and the ignorance of the masses for my entire adult life. I
have tried to point people in a useful direction without upsetting
people (because peeople don’t listen to people who upset them) but it
is an exercise in patients. Today, i am a VERY patient person. I have
learned to see things in geologic time - well, not _quite_ that big,
but i don’t have a word for. . . biological time. . . i don’t know -
the time that it takes species to evolve.
To that end, i am aware that species evolve in quantum leaps, not according to a linear model.
Someone, i think on this thread, talked about a 10 year depression
that gives us time to “cool our heels and practice our fasting skills.”
Something inside me tells me that that will be my time. For the present
i am in the present and developing presence. Perhaps it will pay off
for the benefit of the People. My intent lies in helping “the next
seven generations.” But despite any cliches or bhuddist koans that
might help the tempered keep their cool, the turmoil is stark to my
senses - especially my heart.
Something might have clicked yesterday when an old friend i hadn’t talked to in a while told me i needed a myspace page. . .
Kia, what do you think about balancing this passion and humility? Anyone?
“exercise in patients” !!! a Freudian slip!?!
bp #150, i see my sense of humor is contaigous. . . like the plague.
regarding the definition of quality of life, I think the least we
should ask for is a sufficient supply of food in order to prevent death
due to starvation. There are roughly 300 million people living in the
US, but the deer population in our forests is only 1 million. No way
that the US can secure its food supply by hunting animals in the
forests. We are condemned to eat industrial food which can be produced
only with enough fossil fuel inputs.
had posted that if China dumped $1T on the market it would be a blip by
the end of the trading day. I’m not a bond market currency guy (i have
decent understanding of the basics)but sometimes you have to connect
the dots. The Chineese will dump one day, when they are good and ready
and it won’t be a blip it will be a tsunami on all markets they target.
If you live in the USA, if you are bloody politician or a corporate
leader I urge you to read this article by Navarro - it very succinctly
connects the dots for you and the $1T of reserves may be the least of
your worries because the dollar is toast anyway.
Kia, bizzare; it’s getting incomprehensibly dangerous. I don’t know
what make of it - and the masses yawn. Several useful articles on
Brzezinski, this one’s essential.
I did defer to jtgelt’s opinion.
There is a problem with the dollar being toast. Why would the
Chinese dump a trillion dollars to make it worthless? They would be
better off buying ten million houses in America for 100 thousand
Buy something, instead of trying to trade dollars for another fiat currency.
If the dollar is toast, it doesn’t bode well for Canadians, either.
The Canadian Pension Fund is heavily invested in arms manufacturers.
Canadian workers help support the war with their pocketbooks.
dont think the US dollar is at risk of a serious decline now or in the
intermediate term . I base this view on the fact that all fiat
currencies are being significantly debased concurrently. Longer term i
am more doubtful.
What is more at risk now and in the next 12 months is a significant
decline in hard asset prices especially metal commodities such as
copper, aluminium,gold and silver. One thing the central banks do not
want is a general perception that fiat currencies are ’suspect’ and
unstable and gold and other hard assets are safer than fiat currencies.
The best way to beat the fraud we have all been subject to since 1913
is to buy physical gold and silver, hold on to it even when the price
goes down by 50% (unlikely but it may happen) and then buy more on
weakness. If every investor had 5-10% of their portfolio in Gold and
some Silver for the long term we(just ordinary folk) may just come out
ok when all is said and done.
dood luck and best wished to you all.
I mean ” good luck” - i told you i a=m jusy a simple ordinary man
Where is zephyr? Are you there, zephyr? Please would you be kind enough to email me at firstname.lastname@example.org
morning, Dr. Jane…I will do that….just been working for a couple of
days, plus the Super Bowl. Seems like we’ve moved past the topic but
since I was referenced so much, I thought I might bring back the
Look, most people tend to take things said about their group
personally. I know I have. That said, boomers…chill. If you’re on this
web site, chances are you’re not the type of person I was speaking of.
But c’mon, by sheer numbers you people could have really made this a
better world, instituted some real change. Bottom line? You didn’t……as
a group. I know individuals have….but as a group…you suck….that’s all
there is to it. Generally speaking, is the world better off since the
Boomers were in charge? A resounding NO!
RandallT4 68, maybe the x’ers and y’ers hate us because they hate
themselves. Oh, yeah, that must be it. Please, if that’s true, it’s
because you raised us so badly. Like Chris Rock says…That’s just
Ig’nent! (That’s ignorant for you really white folks)
M1953 75, has it nailed down. And someone else mentioned Greenspan
and another older person. So what does that prove? Yeah, every
generation has it’s bad guys. I’m sorry, simple math says the boomers
had more of them. Enough….time to stop beating that horse.
What I’m really interested in is this. Basically, I’ve kind of
noticed that the sun looks much stronger than it should for early Feb.
in CT. Looks more like March. Yes, might sound nutty but after many
years you sort of internally start to remember what occurs or should
occur during each season. Anyway, I mention this to my neighbor and he
runs in his house to get me a BBC Sam Neil narrated documentary
entitled Hyperspace. Jane, have you seen it?
Anyway, I’ve read some astronomers have noticed the stars
re-aligning…..or more accurately, the earth, in relation to its
universe. It’s a naturally occurring phenomena that most people just
don’t notice until the changes are too hard not to notice. Explains
extreme weather. Add a pinch of human interference with global warming
and you have…..change. Or extreme change potentially. These are cycles
to a large extent, see the Mayan calendar. Maybe some of these
primitive people weren’t so primitive after all. Think the govt knows
something we don’t?
Anyway, I think this is the tip of a melting iceberg. I think we’re
going to start seeing change speed up and get stronger…..angrier. I’m
sure as soon as Kia reads this, he’ll have a link to back it up.
Anyway, like the big man says, Think about it!!
So sorry to be so serious. I do laugh. Humor is great.
I know, silence is golden. If it all falls down, what can anybody really do? Pick up the pieces and start over, I suppose.
When one of my sons was in the first grade, I asked him one day what he says when he’s not on the playground.
He said to me, “Dad, you know what I say when I’m not on the playground?”
“What?,” I asked. He shouted at the top of his lungs to me, “I’m having goddamn fucking fun.”
I lost it, tears rolled down my eyes from the hilarity.
Laughter is the best medicine.
see the Brzezinski’s Move as THE FIRST MAIN STREAM accepted crack in
the hole 9/11 crime and cover-up. We have Zbig WARNING The Senate
Foreign relations committee about a possible “provocation” in is
opening statement. Lets Face it all of the Congress’ acquiescence to
Bush-II began with 9/11. Who better than Zbignew B. to really have an
inside track on 9/11?? and what do most groups of criminals, very smart
criminals at that, do when they see their plans start to fail, and the
“hang-mans” noose become possible destination?? Please go to http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/2007/hrg070201a.html
Click on “Iraq in the Strategic Context Session 2″ and you can listen
to Brzezinski’s testimony (of the Feb 01 2007 testimony) yourself. Down
Load and read the text, Zbig starts testifying at 1:40 into video,
Advance to 2 hours 11 minutes, He very clearly and plainly reminds the
Senate Committee about the Downing Street Memo. I take this as a clear
shot across the bow delivered by the old-school criminals to the
new-school crowd presently in power Here is what I posted at another
anti-NWO site m1953″ I really believe we are witnessing a power
struggle, right before our eyes, it looks to me, just like the “mafia”,
or any other large crime group, over time FACTIONS evolve and battle
each other for dominance, I think we see the George-I James Baker
Brzezinski Faction is openly opposing the George-II, Kissinger, Cheney,
Wolfowitz, Perl Faction. It does have the potential to get so dirty
that one side “rats” out the other concerning 9/11. This is called the
prisoner’s dilemma in mathematical game theory, eventually the most
optimal choice is to be the first one to rat, “you get the best deal
that way”, it happens all through history, these animals find it so
easy to have their killing done for them while they stay nice and warm
at home with the grand kids, OH but once they see the possibility of
their crimes coming to light, oh man will they SING!!”
you mentioned Brezinski. I actually worked with his daughter Mika. You
may have seen her anchoring on CBS. Well, I worked with her about 10
years ago when she was cutting her teeth at the CBS affiliate in
Hartford. She was a very strange girl. I mean, very child like and
spoiled. She would say the strangest shit. Like when we would be
driving to a story. We would be having a conversation when she would
just blurt out, “I want some chocolate.”, and say it like she was a
little girl. She would babble to herself in the midst of people in the
newsroom. Funny how she moved up the ladder, though. Guess it helps to
Here’s one. We were out covering the story of a minister who forgave
the person who killed his son and then actually became friends with him
in a mentoring/forgiveness sort of way. Anyway, we’re shooting the
interview and she’s dying to force them into a hug for the camera.
Well, it’s just not happening, or they didn’t want to do it for the
camera. After shooting an awkward 30 seconds, I stopped recording and
turned away. Well, she blew a gasket and accused me of “missing the
money shot”. That was when I was doing vacation relief for a couple of
years there. Like I said, strange girl. Must have had a bizarre
upbringing. Then one day, like Paris Hilton, she told daddy, “I want to
be on TV”. Voila, it happens.
Mannnnnnnn-o-man. If the insanity wasn’t already complex enough,
this succinctly addresses every element of lunacy that leaves me
wondering if anyone is at the helm.
Thanks for the link.
155, that’s the greatest thing about the internet… people communicate
like never before and therefore, the govt can’t snowjob us as they’ve
always done in the past. Prior to the ‘net, the people were reliant on
the media. Only recently has it become painfully obvious that the media
has deluded the people over the years, an obvious tool of the govt.
While we used to condemn the Soviets for their propagandist media, we
in essence did the same thing.
Now there is too much info from reliable sources on the internet
which is letting people know just how much we have been lied to. It is
so transparent now. The question becomes, What to do? I believe if not
for such information and subsequent actions, we would already be in
Iran. However, as some prior posts have indicated, it may still be just
a matter of time before we hit Iran. But this too would only magnify
the fact that this govt is no longer in any way serving the citizens of
the US. Take into account the article Michael posted regarding
individual state’s objections to a national ID card. If indeed a
national ID card proceeds despite such objections, it again becomes
obvious we are inching towards a police state of sorts.
As far as China goes, it is in many ways our own Frankenstein’s
monster. We have given life and sustenance to the beast. And like any
nation or empire that tastes power, what is to stop China from placing
us under the same heel we’ve applied so many times to other nations,
with no remorse. Ah, you reap what you sow.
And again, 2012. Why does that date hold so much significance? I
read another financial article today that references 2012. Gold-Eagle
editorial by Brian Bloom of Australia-”2012 seems to be the deadline by
which, if we have not moved with a sense of urgency to address the
macro problems, we will have passed the point of no return. There are
two unrelated mathematical models which triangulate to this date”.
Again, what’s up with 2012? It seems to be the point of reference to so
#157 manic Makia, hehe
Makia - I wasn’t targeting you and I know how you feel;that is why I found it easier to bury my head for many years.
Skinner - in know way shape or form do I exonerate Canadians but when
the USA sneezes we catch a cold. On the dollar - eventually people will
dump and the first out gets the best % on the dollar. The Chineese may
not care if they lose a few hundred billion in dollars if they are
ousting one of the parties (anti -PPT) or affecting other markets where
they make trillions. I raised the issue because the article connects a
few dots on the why or why not to dump.
Food for thought
#168, Thank You for the insight re: Mika B. Scary very scary. Yes I do
remember seeing her once or twice as a fill in anchor. But the story
you related “Like when we would be driving to a story. We would be
having a conversation when she would just blurt out, “I want some
chocolate.”, and say it like she was a little girl” Scary very scary!
#165 - hehe, I don’t want to belabor a point, but you did read The
Fourth Turning, did you not? - everything is going according to plan B,
no need to get upset with a prior generation - we all play our parts -
subjective anger is an attachment to the object you are angry with -
let it go - go ask Makia
bp - I heard a great quote yesterday from the dentist
“my father sure learned a lot from the time I was 15 ’til I was 25″. haha
heheh, yeah ostrich, now there’s a truism
74, just read parts of that report, and I’m freaking out. It’s at the
same time utterly terrifying and utterly ludicrous, and the reason it’s
terrifying is because it’s ludicrous. I mean, these people are
absolutely serious about this stuff.
‘It is necessary to accelerate developments in medical technology
and healthcare in order to obtain maximum benefit from converging
technologies, including molecular medicine and nano-engineered
medication delivery systems, assistive devices to alleviate mental and
emotional disabilities, rapid sensing and preventive measures to block
the spread of infectious and environmental diseases, continuous
detection and correction of abnormal individual health indications, and
integration of genetic therapy and genome-aware treatment into daily
medical practice. To accomplish this research laboratories,
pharmaceutical companies, hospitals and health maintenance
organizations, and medical schools will need to expand greatly their
institutional partnerships and technical scope.’
Now I understand what’s happening here in Oxford. I went into the
science area for a seminar last summer and a large group of buildings,
which included the Genetics department where I used to work, had been
reduced to a pile of rubble. Now new buildings are going up. All the
department libraries are closing. A beautiful old copper beech in front
of the Physiology department has been cut down, apparently just to
spite the people campaigning to save it.
Nobody seems to understand what’s happening, but they don’t like it and I think many of them are scared.
Great,Dr Jane! My background is in mathematics and mechanical
engineering so ia was at a big disadvantage in really judging what in
those reports is really feasable.I am grateful this has finally got
into the hands of someone with enough background in the Life Sciences.
I really would like to know how much of this is feasable in the next 10
- 20 years, I have put it on other web sites and it was totally
ignored, I am just grateful some one with the credentials to judge can
give us an opinion and perhaps some warnings.
174, I’m not really angry per se. I mean, sorta, but not really. I
guess I’m more hung up when people deny the obvious. Like “Well, I’m a
boomer and I’m not like that, so you’ll fulla shit, F off!” That sort
of thing. Yeah, I read the book so I guess that’s the part of life
that’s pre-determined. Like the current generation….as a whole. Wacky,
lazy, detached, entitled…..gee, I guess that could apply to any
zephyr - you da bomb zephyr, hehe - I was in PA around Thanksgiving
(deer hunting season - I musta counted 30-40 dead deer on the highway
and nearly ran into one on a back road at night - if times get hard, go
to southwestern PA - they’ve got plenty of deer, hehe
Reading “Yuga, an Anatomy of Our Fate” by Marty Glass helped me
understand that wisdom traditions the world over have predicted our
current circumstances. I have learned that evolution is a process
because I am witnessing devolution.
No sense sweating the inevitable.
Regardless of how I feel about the actions of ours I have to feel
that they are doing the best they can, but have to admit to being
disappointed. I can only surmise that the purpose of my life is to try
to provide an example.
After all, no one is totally worthless, one may always serve as a bad example.
Thanks for the link, keep ‘em coming. My understanding is that the
Ronald Reagan left San Diego last Thursday, which put the earliest
attack around Feb 24. Also i am looking forward to your next song.
Something about turning the Red Sea Red.
I sincerely hope you are right. No honor among thieves.
that’s the secret!
I appreciate your confidence, and have this to offer as a potential
backup to what you have heard/read. I’d be interested in your (and
If you can trust my sources the US has been “in” Iran for over the
last year with the CIA providing “backpacks” to Kurds in the north. A
“backpack” is $1M USD in $100 dollar bills. Special Forces have also
been conducting operations in an attempt to have Iranians rise against
the clerics. Anyone have any info on our activities inside Iran?
Peter Gabriel already sang about Red Rain. And Ozzy Osbourne was always
singing (or croaking) about oceans of blood and generic stuff like
that. C’mon, gotta be original.
Will read your link. My sources tell me the Iranians make a mean
lamb kebob! Falafel is smoking, too! Awaiting final word on their
Iran is beautiful, full of proud Persians who share little or no
identification with the Arabs. I had the pleasure to experience their
hospitality during a trip to Mt. Elbrus. I highly recommend the yogurt
The Iranians are largely pro-American and resent the influence of
the mullahs. Based on the results of the latest election, it appears
that they do not Ahmadinejad’s extremist positions.
It saddens me that we will make them the next enemy as part of the NeoCon’s dream of a greater Pipelinestan.
As for turning the Red Sea Red:
One More Red Nightmare Lyrics
by King Crimson (Fripp/Wetton)
Pan American nightmare
Ten thousand feet fun-fair
Convinced that I don’t care
It’s safe as houses I swear
I was just sitting musing
The virtues of cruising
When altitude dropping
My ears started popping
One more red nightmare
Sweat beginning to pour down
My neck as I turn round
I heard fortune shouting
Just get off of this outing
A farewell swan song
See you know how turbulence can be
The stewardess made me
One more red nightmare
Reality stirred me
My angel had heard me
The prayer had been answered
A reprieve has been granted
The dream was now broken
Thought rudely awoken
Really safe and sound
Asleep on the Greyhound
One more red nightmare
a shame, I’m sure Iranians are good people and I would love to travel
there. People are so easily influenced though, into believing that
these people are our enemies and must be stopped. It sickens me really.
And the people that buy the bullshit have usually never even travelled
outside of their own state let alone the country. The more I travel,
the more I realize how small the world really is and that we’re really
in this together. It goes back to what I told BP, I hate ignorance
especially if it leads to feelings of hatred, prejudice and the like.
Sounds hypocritical but yes, I hate hatred. Like the old bumper sticker
says- Mean People Suck!
Man, you’ve done some travelin’! I had to look up where Mt Elbrus was. What were you doing there?
zehpyr - I gotta think that site someone, I think it was muleskinner,
linked to for Robert Anton Wilson about says it for me - there are
infofiles (sp) and infophobics (sp) in every age group - it’s the
infophobics that hold things back, resist change - I would suspect mean
people have a LOT of fear and anger - heheh, just think of Cheney -
Hard to not get sucked onto their playing field
I am the world’s luckiest mountain bum. We ended up climbing the
West and East summits, after being turned back by the PKK in eastern
Turkey where we had to abort our attempt on Mt. Ararat(supposedly the
site of Noah’s ark).
Mt. Elbrus is the highest peak in Europe and the Elburz mountains
are the suture between Europe and Asia. It sports a stunning view of
the Caspian sea.
The Turks are also very fine people. I have spent 2/3 of my last 30
years working and climbing in the Andes, Himalaya, Karokorum, Alps,
Alaska, and most ranges in the American West.
I started cutting ropes for Yvon Chouinard when I was twelve when he
was developing clean climbing and learned at the feet of Tom Frost, T.M
Herbert, Doug Robinson and had the honor of sharing a rope with John
The mountain people are the toughest in the world, and they have
consistently treated me with generosity. My experiences have led me to
believe that 99% of the world is full of good people, and that it is
the other 1% that causes most of the problems that we can discuss.
My sincere hope is that someday all humans will focus on their
commonalities rather than their differences. It is my best hope for
driving miss daisy
you can say that again, here’s my favorite infophobe:
Exxon through the American Enterpise Institute is offering $10K to any scientist to repeat party line.
Peace and Truth
here’s the link
“as long as we can find one scientist to say global warming doesn’t exist, then it doesn’t” -Steven Colbert
what a conservative is…NO change whatsoever, none! Hell, if they had
their druthers we would still have slavery, no voting rights for women
and massacres of native Americans going on daily. However, change to
our environment is good. As long as that change involves razing
One thing I don’t understand. Before he left office, Clinton set
aside alot of land. Well, apparently that doesn’t matter because
Bushie, upon arriving opened up this land for development. And that’s
the thing….you can reverse setting land aside but you can’t reverse it
in the other direction once it’s been done. You can’t patch a forest
back together. Don’t get me wrong, Democrats suck. And I’ve been
getting the obligatory e-mail regarding Clinton and all the people
associated with him and her who have mysteriously died or been
murdered. But Republicans suck more, mainly because they’re meaner. And
mean people suck!!!
And if one person in politics was proven to be a satanist or satan
himself, it would have to be that prick bastard Cheney. Now, BP,
there’s no anger there….just an observation of sorts. He is a P-R-I-C-K
B-A-S-T-A-R-D, just so there’s no mistake or something gets lost in
translation. Male genitalia born of an unmarried woman= Dick Cheney. I
mean, how much more obvious could it be? DICK (genitals) Cheney ( which
I believe is Latin for illegitimate ). Case closed…..gee, I hope
Michael allows this one to stay posted.
don’t hold back, tell us how you REALLY feel!
OK, hold on, let me get to my thesaurus…..
while you are paging through, here’s a heart warming message:
This just in:
All the recent obituaries written about Saddam Hussein were
incomplete. All left out a listing of his surviving sons and daughters.
A listing follows:
He was predeceased by two sons, Uday and Qusay, and is survived by 15 sons:
Sooflay, a restauranteur;
Guday, who lives in Australia;
Huray, a sports fanatic;
Sashay, who is gay;
Kuntay and Kintay, twins living in Africa;
Sayhay, a baseball player;
Ojay, football player and a stalker and murderer;
Gulay, a singer/entertainer;
Ebay, an internet entrepreneur;
Biliray, a country music star;
Ecksray, a radiologist;
Puray, a manufacturer of kitchen blenders;
Raygay, who lives in Jamaica;
Tupay, who is bald,
and by seven daughters:
Lattay, a coffee-shop owner;
Bufay, a big eater;
Dushay, owner of a feminine-care-products company;
Phayray, an actress;
Sapheway, a grocery store owner;
Ollay, who lives in Mexico;
and Gudlay, a prostitute.
There is reportedly another surviving son, Oyvay, but he has been disowned
by the family.
heh, you two are on a roll - cool history kia
Zephyr #190- you’re younger than me how do you clap on a blog or do you just type hip hip hurray
Kia I said it before and I’ll say it til I die we all bleed red.
heh, muleskinner - I can’t get that here — http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/417/2032
I’ll have to keep an eye for it
but I have tried some of this brewery’s stuff - you might like some of it - http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/2097
see where my mind is
I’m just experimenting
Ok 1 out of 2, Ostrich….no luck with clapping though and my wife helped look very thoroughly, more or less.
Ok I’ll stop now
:-\ :-p :-* :’( :-@
Ostrich there’s my little experiment. Actually, for everyone out
there…we now have a couple of new emotocons….hurray….Hands Clapping
have a problem Houston. Americans have become haters of the truth.
Truth is we still have legal racism. We just changed the race quotas
from hurting women and minorities to helping them. All that was good in
1950, is now evil. All that was evil in 1950, such as credit, debt,
unbalanced budgets, working mothers, unmarried parents, being on
welfare, is now a social good. People cheer the decline of all 1950’s
values like being married before you have children. Now over 35% of
children are born to unmarried women. Sad for the kids. It is
politically incorrect to publicly criticize the new world order or the
social reengineering of the world to a “service sector” computerized
credit card, vampire, cannibalizing, carnivoer society. We have met the
enemy and he is us. When people yearn for the truth (other than George
W. Bush’s twisted sad version) we will get it. Until then, protect
thanks for you IPCC contribution.
i’m so tired of the hired swine.
zephyr 165, no I haven’t seen Hyperspace, but talking about the sun, I’ve seen some stuff on http://www.thunderbolts.info that might just be the missing link on climate change. Have a look at this: http://www.rense.com/general66/expl.htm
Rocky Mountain High in British Columbia
A climber’s paradise, they say. If you haven’t been there, go.
“Things ain’t tough yet. I’ve seen one dog eat another dog.” - words
of a farmer remembering and repeating the words of an older farmer who
farmed during the Dirty Thirties
You don’t know how good you’ve got it.
Kia 181, just read that link saying the whole solar system is warming up. Wow.
194, I was just thinking about serious things like climate change, and
you go and make me laugh again, dammit. How can I concentrate on the
End of the World with people like you around?
84, many thanks. I’ve googled the Shell ICP Process, and Shell says it
produces 3.5 units of energy for every unit used to heat the shale,
which sounds good. But as far as I can ascertain, that does not include
the energy cost of the ‘wall of ice’ which you have to make around the
site to prevent groundwater coming in and cooling the shale down again.
Since you have to heat the shale for several years, presumably you have
to keep the ice wall frozen for several years too. Do you have any
thoughts on this? Sounds as if it could actually be considerably less
than the 3.5 units that Shell is claiming.
so here we go. About a minute ago, a friend/mechanic from our garage
dropped me home. My wife’s brakes need work and she took my car. His
name is Charlie and he’s a great guy. He told me a story that has
become a microcosm of the country. His wife just lost her job of 10-12
years. She was too well paid. The garage where he works is dead. He has
a trip to Florida next week paid for that he can’t afford now. Heating
and electric are going up exponentially. True, our electric company is
going up 50%. Yeah, you read that right. He unfortunately is one of too
many people who took all the equity out and now owes more than the
house is worth.
And you wonder why people are walking around looking miserable. In
his words, the bottom is dropping out in this country. People are
losing work all over. Wal-Mart workers are proposing a lawsuit. Stop
& Shop, a big supermarket chain here, their workers are going on
strike. Like ‘Skinner says, we haven’t seen the worst of it yet. By the
way, ‘Skinner, I hope ya still love me despite the boomer comments I
made. You know I wasn’t talking about you .
Anyway, what will the majority of people do? They were lead into a
trap and willingly took the bait. Now that corporate America and the
Feds have them by the balls, what will they do? What would you do?
#206, JLS - Re:
We have met the enemy and he is us.
er, I believe Pogo said that — what goes around, comes around, hehe
gee, zephyr - hope this quote thing works, eh
213, zephyr -
By the way, ‘Skinner, I hope ya still love me despite the boomer comments I made. You know I wasn’t talking about you
What’s you mean Willis, er, just giving you a hard time, hehe - this blockquote stuff is cool, heheh
man, that story sucks zephyr - what would I do, hm, declare
bankruptcy, get a new social security card/number from the underground,
and start over again somewhere else, maybe British Columbiahehe, sounds
great — kia, you climbed there?
Hey bp, you OK? Seems like you’ve gone goofy like Makia. You been huffin’ glue again?
it’s bizarre….like living in a ghost town…or my friend’s street near
Phoenix where he’e the only resident. No kidding. Anyway, Michael comes
up with a new topic and everyone come out of the woodwork to throw
their 2 cents in, and then they scatter like sheep.
After awhile all I can hear is my own breathing….and of course bp giggling in some dark corner.
Conformity is the enemy of truth and the jailer of freedom - John F. Kennedy
heheh, yeah - what do they call them - something like one shot and gone - me ok?, yeah, Makia said it was contagious, hehe
I figure it’s getting to the point of gallows humor… just getting
restless with the slow motion wave action going on in the world
I live right on the US/Canada border, and have had the pleasure of
guiding ski mountaineering trips in the Selkirks for 12 years.
Elsewhere I had the good luck of Mother Nature letting me get to the
summits of Mt. Robson, Mt. Logan, and Hawser Tower in the Bugaboos.
Like I said, I’m the luckiest mountain bum in the world, as mother
nature has been good to me. I have an additional appreciation of that
since I lost 4 partners (all my age) last year.
B.C. is wonderful, and so are the people.
you do sound like one lucky dude - hope you stay lucky!!
m1953 178, you asked how much of the science in that report was feasible in the next 10-20 years.
Short answer, none of it. Listen to this: ‘The human body will be
more durable, healthier, more energetic, easier to repair, and more
resistant to many kinds of stress, biological threats, and ageing
Not through technology, it won’t. Biological systems are
self-repairing, and there is no technology in existence that could even
in theory do the same job.
The writers think all society’s ills are caused by genetically
inferior people who are sick and stupid and need machines of one kind
or another to make them function properly.
I have been trying to tell people like Tony Blair the truth about
these things for many years. I get nowhere, and nor does anyone else,
for an account of what happens when you give prison inmates the
vitamins and minerals lacking from their diets, and the
incomprehensible response of the Home Office.
Dr. Jane, you’ve actually been in contact with Tony Blair and you
haven’t….you know….hurt him…you know….in some way? Ummm,….why not? Now
you’ve let me down.
Luck happens when preparedness meets opportunity!
If we can’t have fun before the End of the World, then when are we going to have time to fit it in?
c’mon Kia, that’s an old one. Come up with something new and bold.
Catastrophe happens when DumbAss meets Satan. Translated: Iraq (or soon
Iran) happens when Bush meets Cheney. See! It’s alot catchier. Kinda
rolls off the tongue which is very important to take into account.
hehe, yeah, I think in kia’s case it’s more like Luck Happens When Preparedness Meets Bad S**t
zephyr, hm - how about evil spawn is born when satan meets the mother of all wars…hm, just doesn’t sound as good as yours, heh
Never heard the melody until I needed the song.
kia, cool - speaking of songs, I’m listening to McMurtry now - soon be time to march, I’m thinking
if you like McMurtry, you might also appreciate Greg Brown.
TWO LITTLE FEET
two little feet to get me ‘cross the mountain
two little feet to carry me away into the woods
two little feet, big mountain, and a
cloud comin’ down cloud comin’ down cloud comin’ down
I hear the voice of the ancient ones
chanting magic words from a different time
well there is no time there is only this rain
there is no time, that’s why I missed my plane
John Muir walked away into the mountains
in his old overcoat a crust of bread in his pocket
we have no knowledge and so we have stuff and
stuff with no knowledge is never enough to get you there
it just won’t get you there
a culture exploded into knickknacks and memories
Eagle and Bear trinkets I don’t think it’s good
old man what am I trying to say it’s a
it’s a messed up world but I love it anyway
two little feet to get me ‘cross the city
my little hand to knock upon your door
my little thing for your little thing
and a big love to lift us up once more to the mountain
lift us up
tumble us like scree let us holler out our freedom like a
like a wolf across a valley like a kid lost in a game
no time no name gonna miss that plane again
and I’m gonna stay here with you baby and kiss you to a good dream
I’m goin’ kiss you
kiss you like you like it
I got two little feet to get me across the mountain
two little feet to carry me away into the woods
two little feet big mountain and a
cloud comin’ down cloud comin’ down cloud comin’ down
kia, couldn’t find a site playing that song, but did find this - http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=87459293
Two little Feet is from his “Further In” CD
Michael HELP!!!! Another topic PLEASE!!!
hehe, maybe he needs to deep six this thread
Help meeee….my mind is turning to mush….need…cerebral…stimulation…
a long drive last weekend, i verbalized a thought i had had about the
process of evolution since the beginning of life and the function
(form) of viruses.
The visualisation is that viruses are extremely simple organisms
which implant DNA inside the nucleus of a cell (where the own cell’s
DNA is - stay with me people). Thereby the virus alters the DNA of the
cell. And each virus is different, right? Anyone thinking what i’m
Basically, everything has a purpose. That’s what’s extremely important here.
Another topic of converstaion on the ride was herpes (seperate
conversation beleive it or not, my wife’s a nursing student so you do
the math). Now the perspective that i proport is that if no one had
herpes symptoms, then no one would worry about herpes one way or the
other. It would be “just” another organism in the body. Perhaps we
would even find a positive benefit?
And thats one of the few significant problems i have with a great
portion of “scientific” studies, especially those dealing with medicine
and physiology: The whitecoats pull together a few hundred or a few
thousand people and call it a “representative sample.” Well thats all
well and good but you’re only selecting from people who are going to
the doctor for one reason or another, and then down to people who are
willing to be studied. So there’s a large group of the population who
is not represented a) people who don’t go to the doctor, b) people who
don’t go to the doctor unless the are sick, and c) people who aren’t
willing to be studied. Now what effect is this going to have on just
about every single medical study ever done? Sometimes, its done more or
less intentionally. For instance, you don’t test herpes medicine on
people who aren’t sick. What about people who might have herpes but
never take symptoms? Maybe never know they have it? Modern medicine
almost never studies _healthy_ people.
But they do know of the complex interations of the systems within
our body. And at least a few of those systems are dependant on
“foriegn” organisms. Organisms that we pick up _after_ we are born
which help us digest food, develop a strong immune system on the inside
and out, and what else?
So where might random influxes of useful genetic code come from, and
how might they be implanted into the DNA of a species? And perhaps most
importantly, the host cell and its organism may react differently over
the millenia. . .
Just a thought. . .
bp, many things are contagious eh? If an insight is useful and it
becomes accepted and used positively by more people. . . that might be
considered an infection.
223, no I don’t think I hurt him. Sucks, doesn’t it? However, I haven’t
finished with him yet. Kia thinks when the End of the World comes we
won’t have time for humour. Heheh.
If i know me, after i’m done crying i’m gonna laugh my ass off.
Makia, first thanks for the cerebral input after a lost day (you lose
so much via internet, as I’m typing that I’m saying it in my head with
a Jewish accent…you know…kind of sing-songy).
However, those are the types of thoughts you have on a long ride? Wow! And I thought I was disturbed
I think about stuff like how the Red Sox will do this year, where my
next jobs are coming from, when I can take my next painkiller, where
I’m going to vacation next….stuff like that.
Sorry I missed your call Monday night. I was working the
UConn-Syracuse men’s basketball game. Very good game although my alma
mater lost. I live in Ct but still cheer for the Orange when they play.
It was an excellent game.
237, right on. The whitecoats have been puzzling for ever about how
those little things inside cells looked awfully like viruses. Well,
they ARE viruses. And they control gene expression.
There’s a chicken virus called avian leukemia virus which people
thought only certain chicken flocks had, the ones that got leukemia,
right? And then they found all chickens had it, the leukemia-prone ones
had more of it, that was all. Well, avian leukemia virus is in the same
family as HIV. See what I’m getting at?
Remember that article bp gave us about ‘alien genes’? People had
found a ‘language’ in the non-coding DNA, and were hopping up and down
about it being a message from aliens. Well, quite a lot of the
non-coding DNA is derived from … viruses. They’re called
retrotransposons or endogenous retroviruses. And this DNA binds magic
metals like copper and manganese, and electric currents flow along it
which produce electromagnetic fields extending outside the body, and
that’s what people like you can sense, the ‘aura’.
zephyr, was that book you told us about, the Sacred Spiral, saying things like this?
yeah, i figured as much
by Leonard Horowitz who also wrote Emerging Viruses: Aids & Ebola
Nature Accident or intentional. What are you getting at,Doc? Some
people believe vaccinations are really bad for you. And have you seen
the story here in the states where in Texas (of course, Texas), where
the state govt wants to force young girls to be vaccinated for a
certain type of STD that causes, forgive me, some cancer, I can’t
remember exactly. Anyway, Girls as young as 9 will be vaccinated. And
some people are saying the govt has no right to force this on anyone.
One person said what 9 year old has multiple sex partners and if they
did the parents have bigger concerns than this vaccine.
Some people believe vaccinations are ways of controlling the masses.
Some believe it’s just more careless whereby you might be causing
trouble instead of helping. Your thoughts?
zephyr, the accent made me feel very intellectual for a momment there. . .
I am going to buy some barley for malting. Which one? Robust? Drummond? Anyone?
Kia 220, are you really saying you lost FOUR climbing partners in one year? Jesus Christ.
I love how the train of thought jumps around on here. ‘Skinner pops on
“Hey, I’m makin’ some beer here, c’mon! Enough with the end of the
world crapola!” (Archie Bunker accent included).
So, Makia, when did I lose you?
And Dr. Jane, stick with the thread, don’t flip-flop (Oh I hate that
term because of Bush. That and “slippery slope”. Now it’s part of the
American lexicon. People say it and then pause for a second as if to
say, “Aren’t I smart..uh,huh,huh…them’s words the prez-e-dent uses.”).
Wow, I sense today has potential.
Zephyr, i’m not lost, i’ve been right here the whole time.
. . wish i had some input. Actually, someone left a beer in my fridge
said i needed to try. It was Blue Moon “Belgian wheat ale.” They said
it was the best beer ever (a laughable remark). Well i be darned that
they weren’t more right than not. Normally, skinner, i like to pick
some hops and barley out of my teeth after a nice swig, but i don’t
know the second thing about the construction of beer. But considering
my affection for a “nutritional” beer, that wheat ale was somethin’
“Yeah, well, that’s just your opinion, man.” - The Dude
The sword of Damocles looms.
Yeah, i’ve always been partial to a Russo Blanco.
‘Skinner, you know I luv ya, but sometimes I don’t know what the hell you’re trying to convey. But that’s your charm!
‘Skinner, you said something about Sam Adams once. Did you not like it?
Which one of their varieties did you taste? Or was it the price that
got you because it seems any decent brew costs around 10 bucks now.
I’ve tried regular Sam Adams and the light.
No big deal, man.
An outstanding lager from The Yukon.
Just trying to add some humor. If you haven’t seen ‘The Big Lebowski,’ see it. You’ll understand the attempt at humor.
Yeah, I’m still trying to get over it myself. Charles Rosenthal,
Doug Coombs, Todd Skinner, and Charlie Fowler, all fellow high altitude
mountaineers who I tremble when I think about entering 2007 without
their company. I try to stay clear of belief, but if re-incarnation is
true then they will all be together with me in the new year, unless one
of them was lucky enough to evolve onto the next plane. I rest assured
in my not knowing.
Because that’s the Cosmic Joke, all the faith and all the belief
stills adds up to not knowing where we came from, or where we are going
to the point where I don’t even know what will happen tomorrow.
I’m so stupid I don’t even know what type of sport you do with an SUV.
I rejoice in my not knowing an hope that all of us on our little
rock in space can unite in the appreciation of this greatest mystery of
mysteries and work toward peace so that we may continue to pursue our
individual paths that are as varied as those who walk them. I’m lucky
to have such fine company!
Zephyr, EVERY day have potential!
Peace to You Today, Tomorrow and Forever
Here’s the latest on PA-free malting barley, which will reduce your haze.
Here’s George Carlin on the Basic Truth,
have seen the Big Lebowski, I love that movie, John Goodman is
hilarious, I don’t know if I’ve laughed harder than at some of his
scenes. I just didn’t put 2 and 2 together. Hey, try Sam’s Winter
Lager…one of my favorites.
This, my friends, is some serious shit and is being totally ignored
by the media. If Israel destroys the Al Aqsa mosque by taking out its
infrastructure, all hell will break lose. For those uninformed, this
mosque on the temple mount is holy to Islam and the place where the the
old temple used to sit. Prophecy has it that the Temple holy to Judaism
would be rebuilt atop the Temple Mount. Well, it looks like Jews are
More signs of the times. These folks want the ultimate holy war. Of
course, the Dome of the Rock still sits there so what are we might have
are dualing holy buildings on one small site. More fuel to the fire.
zeph, some people want a Holy War. Others are just more than willing to
exploit prophecy/superstition. My feeling is that those do the most to
push the superstition to the forfront of the public’s perception
beleive in the rubbish the least. Then there are the mouthpeices who
love playing the part of demogouge/prophet orator. Some people just
_love_ to hear themselves talk. Oh, and prophecy fulfillment? Very hot
Boulevard from the keg is a great wheat beer, imo. Moose Drool is good. Snowstorm from Schell’s is like Guinness stout.
Somebody tried to tell me that Hefeweizen is good. I don’t think so.
The McNosis is complete, Baghdad is burning and nobody cares.
The Hagia Sofia was an eastern orthodox cathedral until the Muslims got a hold of it.
Hagia Sophia was erected during the reign of Emperor Justinian (532 -
537 A.D.), when the Byzantine Empire was at the height of its power and
influence. The massive dome, which is the prominent architectural
feature, has since often been used as a model for the design of Islamic
mosques. Indeed, after the fall of Byzantium, the Hagia Sophia was
converted into an Ottoman mosque. Today, the monument is a museum
serving both Christians and Muslims.
timeline of church history
well, every religion believes God is on their side and that God
promised them this chunk of land. Having been to the Temple Mount, I
can attest it doesn’t seem to be that great for real estate. Oh, but
the history there. Actually, when I was standing there thinking of all
the blood that had been shed on that site….all in the name of religion.
It is a mockery. And all the parties involved are pushing the
envelope, believing their time in history has arrived. It is a sham and
a mockery. This war is inevitable and will effect us all once all is
said and done. I just wish calmer, saner minds could prevail.
quick note - sapiens, if you’re out there how do you interpret this article in the light of your understanding of evil
I know you disagree, but:
The miracle of monotheism and the “Abrahamic” religions is that they
separated people, and then sent them out to kill each other. Nothing
illustrates it better than the Rapturists and Xians for Zion.
As Harrold Bloom says in his fine book “Jesus and Yaweh, the Names Divine) in the first sentence of the first page:
“There are no verifiable facts about Jesus of Nazareth”
Religion is the politics of spirituality. Religion is social control.
Religion is the major threat to world peace.
Religion is a waste of time and will remain so.
The only hope for peace on this earth is to eliminate from the
planet it as Issac Asimov said. Einstein said God has no religion.
Ratz’s little diatribe about Muslims illustrates this. The Baptist joke
I posted earlier is another. The Church’s abuse of children and
subsequent cover-up is another. Religion and intolerance of
“un-believers” go hand in hand and serves to undermine common
understandings. There is only one Human Nature.
Religion is a dead end street for human understanding and
cooperation, and currently threatens to usher in the New Dark Ages when
they should be using their tax-supported businesses to work for peace.
The solution to the religious disease is to recognize the
commonalities that we all share, leaving people with no other label
than human being. I know that it will never happen, but I can hope and
And now a Word from my hero Frank Zappa:
DUMB ALL OVER
Whoever we are
Wherever we’re from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It’s gonna take a lot more
Than tryin’ to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether
They call it THE EARTH
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
‘Cause we behave the same . . .
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near ‘n far
Dumb all over,
Black ‘n white
People, we is not wrapped tight
Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
On the air every night
Sayin’ the Bible
Tells the story
‘N makes the details
Sound real gory
‘Bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don’t believe in the book
We got over here
You can’t run a race
Without no feet
‘N pretty soon
There won’t be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won’t blow up
It’ll just look ugly
For a thousand years . . . )
You can’t run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
From a neighboring state
TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Hooray! That’s great
Two legs ain’t bad
Unless there’s a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get Down!)
Not his, not hers (but what the hey?)
The Good Book says:
“It gotta be that way!”
But their book says:
“REVENGE THE CRUSADES . . .
With whips ‘n chains
‘N hand grenades . . . ”
TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS?
Have another and another
Our God says:
“There ain’t no other!”
Our God says
“It’s all okay!”
Our God says
“This is the way!”
It says in the book:
“Burn ‘n destroy . . .
‘N repent, ‘n redeem
‘N revenge, ‘n deploy
‘N rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
‘Cause they don’t go for what’s in the book
‘N that makes ‘em BAD
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise
(”Cause he can really take care of business!”)
And when his humble TV servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
It’s okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
‘Cause if we don’t do it,
We ain’t gwine up to hebbin!
(Depending on which book you’re using at the time . . . Can’t use
theirs . . . it don’t work . . . it’s all lies . . . Gotta use mine . .
Ain’t that right?
That’s what they say
Every night . . .
Every day . . .
Hey, we can’t really be dumb
If we’re just following God’s Orders
Hey, Let’s get serious . . .
God knows what he’s doin’ . . .
He wrote this book here
An’ the book says:
“He made us all to be just like Him,” so . . .
If we’re dumb . . .
Then God is dumb . . .
(An’ maybe even a little ugly on the side)
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
you’re presumptuous, what makes you think I would disagree. The proof
is in the pudding. You tell a tree by it’s fruit. Most people who call
themselves religious are indeed narrow-minded and use their pulpit to
their advantage and not others.
But, as always, not all. Religion perceived correctly does wonders,
connects one to the Almighty and serves as an example of human
connectivity. You might disagree, but Buddhism is not the only path to
enlightenment. I’m sure there are Buddhists who are not prime examples
of their faith either.
I won’t debate whether Jesus existed. That statement that there are
no verifiable facts is only one person’s opinion and we all know about
opinions. Was Myth added to fact along the path of history? Sure, but
how many things from any far off time frame are truly verifiable
therefore? Is Buddha verifiable? Are his teachings? Weren’t they handed
down as well? His only difference is he didn’t claim divinity per se.
That gives him more credibility?
“The only way for peace is through eradicating religion.” Sounds
Communistic, we all know how that played out. Einstein said God had no
religion, he didn’t say there was no God.
“Religion is a deadend street for human understanding and
cooperation, and currently threatens to usher in the dark ages when
they should be using their tax-supported businesses to work for peace.”
Sorry, that by itself is ignorant hogwash. Yeah, Godless capitalism has
worked wonders for this country. You’re on a roll here with quotes-
Communism and blatent capitalism- great wonders of man.
You have one view of all things monotheistic and a preconceived
notion of how religion “is”. Not everybody is like that and I take
offense because it presupposes that I must also be like that. Dig
deeper before passing supreme judgment.
Someone can take science and use it for their ugly purposes. Does
that make the science by itself bad? Of course not! Neither is that the
case for monotheistic religions. Some people have taken it hostage and
misconstrued it. It doesn’t change the essence of what lies beneath. If
everybody here didn’t have such pre-cast opinions, I would recommend
reading the writings of Pope John Paul II. He addressed alot of which
you speak in theological, scientific, highly intelligent manners.
But no, without having read any of his stuff, you and others
automatically dismiss what he had to say simply because he had the word
“pope” attached to his name. THAT, is prejudice and you cannot pass
judgment on anything without at least the minimal of exposure to it.
But I beat a dead horse here as anytime I mention “the pope”, there is
a knee-jerk response. I guess Buddha was the only person who could
possibly have been enlightened. At least I have exposed myself to his
teachings and don’t dismiss them out of hand if I have no knowledge of
what I’m saying.
Do not presume to know what I think or assume to know what my reaction will be.
Bp 262, the article is accurate and shows that poverty and perverse
conditions play into narrow, fantastic views of religion. What is true
of Islam is true of Christianity. When Islamic countries were
prosperous, there was peace and acceptance of others. Check the
history. Poverty takes away all hope and leaves a hole that
unfortunately some “people of God” have used to their advantage to
further their cause. It does not make religion evil in and of itself.
Lastly, Frank Zappa was a genius musically and was the first person
I heard suggest Aids was lab created. Don’t forget he also wrote
Titties & Beers, and I promise not to cum in your mouth,
masterpieces in their own right. he was a touch eccentric though and
hardly the final word on all things spiritual.
Zephyr, no! Please don’t hold back! We want to know what you _really_ think!
Alright, now hug and make up you guys. This isn’t a bad
conversation, but its good to remember how complex it gets sometimes. .
I don’t give you guys shit about being Buddhist. Why would I? But I
don’t like being lumped in with a bunch of knuckleheads, directly or
indirectly. I’ve never insinuated Buddhism was a horseshit religion
like I perceive is being said to me about my beliefs. When I was
sitting next to someone while waiting for the papal audience, he
referred to Buddhism as Dogma rather than religion. After looking up
the definition, is it true? Because I actually defended you guys to him.
I never get that reciprocal feeling here. In ‘86 or’87, JP II had a
national day of prayer at the Vatican and had representatives of all
major religions. He met with the Dalai Lama something like 13 times in
his life. Yeah, he sounds like a really narrow-minded prick, just like
the ones Kia describes in his text.
Don’t cater to me on this one Makia. This isn’t my Cheney diatribe
of the other day. This IS more personal because I strive to be the best
person I can based on my faith. Fail? Yeah, all the time, but I try.
And while I do bitch rather loudly, I also listen rather intently and
never try to intentially hurt another personally. (unless, as I’ve
said, that person is an asshole who is denigrating others).
Sorry, no LOL on this one.
this is a complex issue. Reciprocal feeling? Yes you do, from me. If
you don’t know that then thats a misunderstanding or miscommunication
between us. But you don’t know how i _really_ feel about Christianity,
or the Papal State. You also, because of some miscommunication or
misunderstanding, don’t understand my feelings about Bhuddism or
Shidarta. Its no big deal. We have the limitations of distance and
especially time. I know what i beleive and honestly, you never need to
defend me to anyone.
Don’t want to be lumped with a bunch of knuckleheads? I know the feeling; but thats a seperate issue.
Zephyr, i am more than happy to bear my heart to you about all this
stuff; but please don’t misinterpret something i said or didn’t say to
be a knock against you or what you hold dear. I think you’d find my
experiences and lessons i’ve drawn from Christianity to be. . .
healthy. And maybe you feel like, “That makia guy is pretty smart, but
just a little mis-guided.” Well, you won’t get an arguement from me.
my biggest point is that i really don’t think you understand my
opinions and feelings about religion, Christianity, or Bhuddism. But i
do think that i understand yours.
I see you as being an extremely tolerant person. “Tolerant” might
even be a bad word as it implies a prejudice. And you don’t see me as
the same? Perhaps because of a hearsay comment i made about the former
Pope? Well, i’m just sayin, man, this ain’t worth fightin’ over; but
i’d be more than happy to share with you my experiences. And if you
don’t care, then its no big deal at all. Who does, really? No one that
i can think of, actually - ‘cept my mom maybe a little. . .
“It don’t matter to the Jesus.” - Jesus (The Big Lebowski Jesus)
A trip to the moon on gossamer wings via the Via Appia.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Christians lived in Rome. They worked, they owned houses, they had
money, they lived as Romans. When they were discovered, they were
imprisoned, everything they had was taken from them, etc. They were
victims of SWAT tactics back then, much like some untermenschen here in
murka have experienced. Nero blamed them when Rome burned. Scapegoats
everywhere then and now.
Randy Weaver got hosed, eh?
Waco comes to mind. When in America, do as good Americans do so you
don’t get caught. Otherwise, they’ll cut out your tongue, Grover
The McNosis helps you forget about all of that.
All you have to do is believe.
The Dude wrote a check for $0.69.
I apologize for presuming what your reactions will be.
Likewise, please don’t presume what I have or haven’t read. John
Paul II displayed a respect for science that is very enlightened given
the long dark history of the Church, that persists today in the abuse
of children in the form of Cardinal Law who now holds a Vatican
position, and Cardinal Mahony who continues to elude the letter of law.
Ratzinger, after digging up negative comments about the Muslim
religion by a 16th century author ahead of his recent trip to Turkey,
realized his error and met with Muslim leaders.
Although I’m not sure what purpose he is serving by making stances
against Turkey’s admission into the EU, unless one looks at the
Church’s long financial role in the PTB.
How many wars can you point to in the history of 2500 years of
Buddhism that were waged on the basis of it’s dogma? How about the
monotheists? The fact is the leaders of the monotheists are not
contributing to world peace be they Muslims, Jews or Christians. The
leader Abrahamic religions all make the same mistake of claiming a
monopoly on ultimate truth. Buddhism makes so claims. I was present at
a talk by the Dalai Lama when he said “if Buddhism isn’t for you, don’t
worry about it”. Can you imagine the leaders of the monotheists making
such a statement? I can only hope.
The truth is that all religion is myth. Human myths have value in
their teachings, but myths is not facts. Something that seems to have
been lost in the wash of history.
Science classes are for teaching science, churches are for teaching religious myths.
Let’s leave it than way. If I remember right the US constitution guarantees separation of church and state.
Religions have NO business dragging their teaching into the public
schools. They have already been granted tax free status to do so within
their churches. Likewise religions have no business proscribing health
care policies such a stem cell treatment. Finally they have no business
Religion and God to me are to completely different topics. I am not
an atheist because I do not presume to know the existence/non-existence
of an entity that means so many different things to so many different
people. As a agnostic I am recognizing the basic fact that myth is not
fact, and some things are unknowable.
Spirituality has all the advantages of developing one’s relationship
with the unknown without any of the baggage/myth of religion. Having
read your posts here I would never question your spirituality or your
right to follow the religion of your choice. All my comments are
directed to religions, not adherents.
However I strongly question religion’s value relative to working out
the practical problems facing the world’s populations be they energy,
global warming, or partitioning the real estate in the Middle East so
everyone has a homeland.
Zappa was a master of observation, something I endeavor to be. I
posted the lyrics because I think that his observations are accurate
and borne out by our current circumstances that you point out in your
post #259. By the way, thanks for the post.
Thanks ‘Skinner…are you sure you aren’t actually dude?
Makia, of course I see you as tolerant as well, and thank you for
perceiving me to be tolerant because it is something I strive for.
Actually, you just plopped yourself into something Kia said to me to
which I responded. And I believe Kia to be a good person but as I’ve
said before I take some things personally, this being one.
There are many things wrong with the Abrahamic religions. Too much
ill will and bloodshed, narrowmindedness and prejudice. But those are
creations of man, bad, individualistic interpretations that shed a bad
light on something that is initially good. Proof? Who has definative
proof for anything they believe? That’s just a pissing contest. It’s
faith, it’s something internal. Proof is just a word people use to get
under anothers skin because in truth, nobody has definative proof Jesus
DIDN’T exist. It’s just semantics.
I’m tired….I don’t like discord….time to hike.
As my bumpersticker says:
“I Don’t Know and Neither Do You”
Sorry for stirring up the discord, have a good hike, it is time for
me to grab the skis and the dog and head into the forest. I look
forward to sharing the Great Blue Dome with you .
your post, Kia…will respond when I get back from re-energizing. Funny,
we seem to agree on 90% of what we say to each other. No, after looking
back, it’s more like 95% or more. So where lies the discord. My core
belief that religion is good but then gets hijacked by highly fallable
human beings…way too much…and it pains me because it is not something
that should be. If there is an Almighty, these are not things He would
choose to be. This I believe in my heart.
Who knows what ultimate truth is because there are so many of us on
this earth and we all hold dear such entirely different things….who is
right….who is closest to being right? I still get the sense an answer
is coming, perhaps soon.
How is that ‘Skinner….the answer, my friends, is blowing in the
wind. Ha, and what’s my name….Zephyr- a gentle breeze…is there any
truth to what’s blowing in my wind? I hope so….because nobody wants to
believe they’re living a non-truth. I just see too much that troubles
me. People referencing the same scriptures I read and yet distorting
them into black things…cancerous growths in humanity…and I want nothing
to do with that.
Well, I guess I answered after all…time to hit the trails. Thanks
for the cerebral stuff I was calling for yesterday…..be careful what
you wish for…
i have no problem with a plethora of Dude references. And isn’t Jackie
Treehorn one of the most powerful of archtypal myths? It seems everyone
knows the story of the playboy.
“This is what happens Larry. . . when you fuck another man. . . in the ass!”
Zephyr, i would say this to any christian who i thought it might mean something to; take it for what its worth:
There is a lot of internal pain involved with being Christian and
confronting your beleifs in the question of of “What if I’m wrong?”
From the eagle’s perspective it is easy to see a Christain’s fear of
being wrong, because to a Christain there is only One thing that you
need to be right about. If you agree to that, then the the best answer
from the Preists is thats the only thing you need to beleive. But when
a person is _wrong_ on that, well, some version of Hell, Purgatory,
etc. Bottom line, it’s a rough road to be wrong according to that
dogma. And the mind might think it makes all the separations between
what is “important” and not, but the emotions and the ego can hardly be
expected to be so mature.
But in my “dogma”, i’m not afraid to be wrong (anymore). I’ve even
grown a little more corageous in my shyness take to be bold sometimes.
But you could rhetorically tear my beleif system to shreds and the most
it would get me to do is reexamine and do some internal housecleaning.
Weather i had a good opinion of a person or not i would listen to what
they have to say; it has grown into my nature - and even that system
has “pros” and “cons”.
Some say that all the controversy over the ancient and modern
Christianity proves its relevance. I would say that Christianity has
certainly been influencal and important, but considering the extent of
the hypocrical (i.e. dis-ingenuine) “Christian” expression throughout
history, i’m not sure if i would consider the spiritual side of
Christianity all that relevant. Looks to me like a ton of Western
history can be explained by “my team vs. your team” and nurtured
ignorance. I make the arguement that spirituality survived despite the
christian churchs’ expression in history, not because of it. There have
always been people who tried to get the churches to embrace its more
mystical traditions, with the result tending to be arguements and
ostracization from the political (and economic) arm of the “Great
Geez, zephyr, we know _you_ aren’t a knucklehead, but with so many
knuckleheads citing their Christian churches as the origination of
their bullheaded opinions, how should a critical thinking person note
(or vent) this activity without upseting _your_ sensibility? You see
what i’m sayin’?
i’m done. But zephyr, if you consider me a friend, then i just want you
to take this as a friend: You can be brash and outspoken anytime you
want around me, i have no problem with it, in fact i love it - but in
taking offense at other’s digs on Christianity, just don’t take it
personally. I mean, even if its directed at you; its not worrth getting
so upset over what brings you peace, is it? And dare-i-say, no one here
has really meant any insult to you.
Y’know, i’ve got one more thought about this.
After the SuperBowl, Dungy is up there and they ask him about the
“social significance” of his win and he says, “Coach Smith and i both
agree that the truly important thing is that two _Christian_ men got to
the SuperBowl, doing it “The Lord’s Way.” Yes, the two men are notably
religious, and notably Christian. 30 seconds later they ask Dungy about
the game (recall the Bears scored on the opening kickoff) and he says,
“it was rough there in the beginning but afterwards i just reminded the
guys that sometimes the Lord sends you through a storm before pulling
Now this guys is arguable one of the most respected men and
respected Christians in the country right now. And i would not deny
that he seems incredible soft and genuine to me. And every beleiving
Christian i’m sure loves and “understands” what Tony meant by the Lord
“sending you through a storm before pulling you through.” But i mean,
Come On! How freaking simplistic and double-logic is that? Sure, it
sounds real spiritual and Christian of him, but really, he sounds like
a child to me.
Now, i’ll admit to being childlike. See, i’ve got no problem
embracing a degree of nievete - that’s room to learn and i’ve got a lot
of it. But this Christian _rhetoric_ is just the kind of stuff that
makes the organization essentially unpalatable to my personal outlook.
I’m sure Tony and i would get along great, that’s not my point; i’m
just saying to smack me anytime i use ridiculous cliche like that.
#265, ouch man….my reference to sapiens was about evil, not religion -
i don’t need to get rolled up in that one…but since you brought me in,
let me just say that there is a lot of wisdom in all religions, it is
dogma that I have trouble with, and yes that exists in all religions
too - ya know how it is …pearls before swine - people will take
anything and use it to the own personal ends - check this site and let
me know what you think of the efforts to “save” the natives - http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/12/eliminationism-in-america-i.html
ok zephyr, you’ve peaked my interest here - maybe when you get back
from your hike you can clear up some questions i had - for one I get
the impression that Paul, as in the Saul that had enlightenment on the
road to Damaskis, (ok so my spelling sucks), but anyway this Paul,
according to my understanding was not a disciple, did not even live
during Jesus’s life - is this correct
also, some people claim he really screwed up Christianity by
reinterpreting it into Roman culture - what is your opinion on that?
personally I really like the New Testament, but I think a lot of the
Old Testament was from a completely different mind set, i.e., “an eye
for an eye” versus “turning the other cheek” in the New Testament -
Jesus seems, to me, to have raised the ethical level a notch, but yet
many Christians today seem to quote a lot from the Old Testament - I
consider that back sliding — what say you???
ok, back to Makia and Kia - I say “resist not evil” in the New
Testament really means to not put a wall up to counter evil, but to do
like in Akihito (sp) [a reference to martial arts] and to move out of
the way and/or use the force of the evil thrust against itself, hhe -
ok - so I went out on a limb — thoughts??
i’ve got to show you some of my martial kungfu some time. The way i
would “use the opponents force against him” is light years beyond the
common sense of it. But a man i consider highly spiritual (and
Christian) and a highly adept martial artist talks about the journey of
the spiritual warrior. And he says (paraphrasing):
“Sometimes the good arts require that we help others on their karmic
paths. If one is saturated with violence and hatred and is ready for a
new life, then it may be in your hands to help him get there.”
i could go on i’m sure. . .
Makia, kia, kia, makia - be, bo, banana - sorry just couldn’t resist that
yeah, i agree - there is much at a higher plane that i do not
pretend to know - i do know, though, that people many times hear what
they want to hear, so I am reticent to say a whole lot! when we march
on the PTB, you can show me what you mean - actions speak louder than
words….or so i’m told!
Zephyr, Makia and bp,
Funny thing is the Zephyr and I do agree on 95%, and I shouldn’t be
pressing his buttons on the other 5% but I do not feel personally like
sitting back and watch the representatives of
the Abrahamic religions lead the world into Armageddon, no matter how much they crave it.
On the positive side of not having the requisite self control to sit
quietly and watch the Armageddon Express driven by the True Terrorists
(the NeoCons, Zionists, and Mullahs) is that it stirs up thoughtful
contributions from the likes of Makia and bp, which I value.
As far as I can tell is that the Old Testament is the Big Book of
Jewish Fairy Tales. It and was lashed together in the third century AD
by a group of Jewish scholars with the intent to establish a historical
claim to the land, under the watchful eye of Constantine who decided to
coop the Christian religion to support the Statist (that’s for you
muleskinner) objectives of the Roman empire.
The value in the Bible for me is entirely contained in the New
Testament and Jesus’s message of personal salvation through a personal
connection with God.
As far as I’m concerned we can dump Leviticus and the “eye for eye”
school for good. 2000 years of it has proven it to be a failed
experiment. My problem with our “Christian” society is that seemly they
want to preach to everyone else how to live, without bothering to
internalize Jesus’s teaching in their own behavior because the believe
in the Christian Exclusion clause of “being forgiven”. From the outside
it appears that they have constructed a code of conduct that they hold
all unbelievers to, but ignore themselves.
Functionally this becomes “New Testament for me and those who
believe exactly as I do, Old Testament for those who don’t”. This is
the heart of the hypocrisy that I see all around me. That’s why it okay
for us to invade Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and anywhere else someones
has something we want, because God is on our side.
Zephyr, yesterday you were crying out for meaty material and here it
is, for me it a valuable exchange. However I take a different viewpoint
than you. I believe that people are basically good and capable of
spiritual development. I see religions as trying to push negative
concepts like “everyone is a sinner and will always fall short of the
glory of the lord”. I think is point of view does NOTHING to uplift the
spirit or demonstrate respect for the individual human being. Thus the
New vs. Old split. If our difference in viewpoint is something you take
personally, I have to say that there is little to be done. I don’t take
our different points of view personally because I know that it is
largely illusory. You, me, Makia, bp, muleskinner and the rest of these
poor sots who stoically endure my posts are all one. That’s what God
means to me.
The beauty of Buddhism for me is that it requires no belief, rather it is a code of ethics.
1) Observe the world as accurately as you can
2) Make you contribution through your actions.
In the process no one (other than myself) needs to know my opinion about the unknowable.
My sincere hope is that all humans on the planet can embrace the
beauty of the Great Mystery, and let it serve as inspiration for the
spiritual development of us all.
Peace and Appreciation to You All
I read your posts after we spoke. You know, again, like with Kia, I
can’t argue with most of what you say. I don’t want to because I’ve
made the same argument myself. I suppose my strong reaction comes from
the fact that I’m a Christian but I’m very different from all these
folks you guys keep referencing, that I keep referencing for that
matter. And I’m glad that I am but it disturbs me that so many of these
people are the face of Christianity. And I don’t ever want to be
mentioned in the same breath as so many of these horrible hypocrites at
worst or misguided savants at best.
After reading your description, I almost feel more connected to
Buddhism than my own religion. I don’t know….I’m just so different. I
see so much beauty in Christianity but what comes out in this country
and thru history has been this distorted, twisted creature. And I
despise how it has been hijacked and used for evil. I see religion,
Jesus’ teachings as so obvious a blueprint on how to live. So how does
it get so distorted?
That’s why I defend Pope John Paul II so vigorously. Trust me….I
followed the guy for 26 years. He had it right, he really did. I know
the Roman Catholic church had some bad times over the centuries and
that image sticks with people no matter what now. But this guy had
goodness stamped all over him. I literally cried as much when he died
as when my own father did. You see, I know there aren’t that many
really good people in positions of influence whether it be religion,
media or politics. But this guy was a beacon of light in a bad world.
Yes, he made some bad decisions, or could have been more modern in his
thinking in some areas. Who doesn’t have flaws? But overall, he
represented to me the goodness Christianity has in it’s potential. And
I wasn’t alone in that thinking judging by the worldwide reaction to
And there are many others who do selfless charity work, devoting
their lives to help others. So don’t paint the whole of Christianity or
religion as ” a dead end street” or “a waste of time and will remain
so”. That’s wrong, plain and simple. Every group of people has its
jackasses, doesn’t mean everyone in the group is.
Paul, once Saul, was never a diciple. Matter of fact, he used to
persecute Christians until having a vision on the road to Damascus. He
converted and was influential in the spread of Christianity. His
teachings are tricky because his letters were written to specific
groups of people all with unique problems specific to their time and
region. Modern people try to apply his writings to modern times
verbatum. Can’t be done, but people look for the easiest way out
without thinking. My wife has studied early Christianity and the Bible
in classes for 4 years. That’s why we are different than most
Christians because we understand it’s history and influences. You need
to take a 20 minute interview with someone in its entirety not in 10
second soundbites. You need to get the gist of the whole material, not
pick out lines here and there for your own purposes. My neck hair
raises when I hear someone start a sentence quoting chapter and verse.
Those people are scary. When I hear that…..RUN!!!
Did Paul reinterpret it into Roman culture? I don’t know, I wasn’t
there. He made have made comparisons to what people already knew in
their cultures. Real changes probably came much later, especially under
Constantine in the 300’s. Lots of other mythology was pulled into the
mix probably to make conversion easier or to make a point. Doesn’t mean
it was all make believe. People don’t thrive under that kind of torture
for no reason. The 12 disciples must have seen something mind-boggling
and life-altering because they traveled far and wide to preach a
message. Some pretty long distances for those days. You had Rome,
England, Turkey, etc.
Why do modern Christians get stuck in the old testament. Simple,
it’s easier to justify their prejudices and hate. The new testament
requires introspection and self-examination. Sort of like Buddhism,
huh. Except, how many people do you know who want to do that? Jesus
knew that too. That whole thing about taking the log from your own eye
before seeking to remove the speck from your brothers. Too hard….easier
to point fingers and say, “You’re the bad guy”. The old testament is
more simplistic will do’s and do not’s. People being sheeple throughout
Kia 271, don’t assume Benedict “saw the error of his ways”. After
watching his trip to Turkey, he purposely dug out that statement to
make a point. First, look how a large segment of the Muslim world
responded. Justified the initial criticism. Second, Bededict is looking
for reciprocity. Muslims can worship freely in Christian societies but
not all Muslim societies permit any other religion. No, Turkey doesn’t
belong in the European union without such freedoms.
I didn’t get where he was coming from at first but this guy is sly as an old fox.
Oh yeah I forgot about Papal Infallibility, a hilarious concept on it’s face. Humans are fallible, sorry.
I support you in your quest for recognizing the beauty in
Christianity, which in my simple mind is contained in the New Testament.
“Why do modern Christians get stuck in the old testament. Simple,
it’s easier to justify their prejudices and hate. The new testament
requires introspection and self-examination. Sort of like Buddhism,
huh. Except, how many people do you know who want to do that?”
I do it every day, and with the help of folks like yourself, Makia,
bp and the rest I will continue because I appreciate your contribution
to my path.
Are your and my paths the same? No.
Do they need to be? No.
Can I respect you as a human being without agreeing with you,
certainly unless I’m so narrow minded as to suppose that my path is the
only one, like the monotheists.
There are as many paths as there are people, the sooner the
monotheists recognize that they don’t have a monopoly on truth, the
better for all of us.
But you do have to ask yourself the question, if you or I presided
over a corporation and behaved like Cardinal Law or Mahony, where do
you think we’d be? In a cushy job in the Vatican? I suspect that you
and I would be in prison for 20 years discussing the finer points of
our disagreements while sharing a metal bunk.
I agree that Ratz is a sly old fox, the question is to what end?
Employing Cardinal Law in the Vatican sends the wrong message to the
rest of us who have to obey the law, not just be it. You can’t expect
me to ignore the long history of the Catholic Church, just because you
are different. I grant you that you are different, your understanding
of early Christianity certainly must indicate that much of the religion
has become completely unhinged from the teachings of it’s prophet. If
Jesus returned today, I doubt that he would recognize the religion.
Jesus, save me from your followers!
I will work to avoid this topic in the future with you, because I’m
not interested in having my comments being taken personally, nor am I
interested in stirring up discord, unless it matters. In the case of
the Armageddon Express, it matters. But you have to realize that I am
criticizing huge multi-national corporations and the agendas they
represent as part of the PTB, not yourself, so please get over taking
it personally… or not. My points remain the same. They are as
responsible for this current sham as much as the FED is, that is why
the Vatican was cashing checks for the likes of Marc Rich when he was
spurned by the rest of the international financial community while he
was waiting for Clinton to pardon him.
think you got it right, man. As far as religion goes, i am almost the
definition of non-dogmatic, but inside of me i am aware of a young man
who grew up in a Roman Catholic Church and loved all the solemnity and
ritual and worship of a creator who is far beyond the means of what we
touch and see and hear, is everywhere. That it brought all these people
all over town and further together; singing the same beatiful music,
praying the same dedicated prayers.
Once i looked further than my own little town, i saw that these
expressions of a community are important and healthy no matter what
dogma they are practicing. I know now, what i really always knew - that
God knows it is the community that is important. That a single man’s
murder had so much significance? Well there’s no argueing that the
story has been the reason, and sometimes scapegoat, for an enormous
amount of human activity of the last couple of eons. But the
metaphysical significance? Should i be sent to hell for being confused?
The God i truly beleive in wouldn’t send me to eternal hell for being
really confused on this point. Not if i still lived by this man Jesus’
teachings and examples by my heart.
I hate to jump into the religion arguement as it is obviously filled with personal opinions.
I myself was born a Catholic but dissed it at the age of 13 because
it seemed ridiculous to me. As I grew older I came to the conclusion
that ALL religion was just another way to “control” the sheeple. I have
gone through periods of being an atheist, agnotist, buddist,
quasi-christian (yea right like being semi-pregnant), to being a new
HOWEVER, recently someone on this board posted something and pointed
us to watching some videos on google. I went there and watched the
videos. I was BLOWN away. To say the least I am now RETHINKING ALL of
my religious beliefs (I am a truth seeker after all).
I recommend each and everyone of you who is arguing about religion
GO WATCH THESE videos. It WILL be life changing (at least for me it
Go to google video and do a search on
“Total Onslaugth 221″
If that video peaks your interest then watch as many in the Total
Onslaught series as you have the time to watch. I have watched about 20
first changed you beleifs in what way? (Sorry, can’t watch the videos
at work) Second, the guy on MythBusters said the other day “I reject
your reality and substitute my own.” I thought that sounded a little
familiar. . .
er, skeptical - I can’t find that - can you give me a URL? - sorry I’m kinda dumb about this tuff sometimes
kia, man sometimes you make me laugh with your sense of humor, i.e., referencing muleskinner on that statist comment
zephyr - thanks for the feedback - sometimes I think differences are
so huge as they appear, if people and look closely at things - and
while we are putting our cards on the table, I might as well state that
I am heavily influenced by Taoism - rather old line of thinking, but it
is kinda oriented to natural processes and visualization which attracts
but that said I did grow up in a town with a huge representation of
people with Slavic and Polish roots so a lot of my friends were
Catholic - I have no problem with Catholicism….just with people that
are jacked up, heh
uh, not to get too personal, but kia - where does that moniker come
from - are you a doppleganger of Makia’s, not that I think you are an
evil twin, heh) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppleganger
oops, skeptical - I found it - I can’t spell in my searhes! I’ll watch it and report back
Makia and bp and everyone else,
First I recommend that you watch the preview first which is only 9 minutes long to get it do the following
click on video
in the search box type in
Total onslaught preview
These videos changed my beliefs as follows:
I now believe the Bible is valid
I now beleive the end-time prophasies are coming about as we speak
I beleive Jesus was god incarnate and walked this earth
I beleive that the papalcy is the anti-christ of the bible
I beleive that the whole word is owned and run by the pope
I beleive we will have a one world government very very soon
I no longer beleive in evolution
I no longer beleive in reincarnation
I no longer beleive in heaven or hell (although I never really beleived
in hell, I did beleive in some kind of spiritual after life call it
Ok i could go on but remember that the above beliefs come from one
who previously believed that the bible was just the babbling of a bunch
of ancient susperstitious lunatics.
i’ll keep it in mind skeptical.
i’m gonna change my handle i think. like a facelift.
I forgot, I got the title of my book from Mythbusters. It is not copywrited and I liked it
skeptical - I’ll give it a shot, though, I must say, I already have
some doubts about your beliefs - I shall keep an open mind, in respect
oh, BTW, you mistyped the video title - Total Onslaught 221, just to help others get there
oppss I can’t type very well sometimes. I need to reread my postings before posting them and I don’t do that enought.
we could discuss this forever but there would be no point. I studied up
On Buddhism last night and this morning. Interesting. Some good, some
bad. Some very poignent, some very silly and egocentric. Seems Buddhism
has as many denominations as Christianity. So how do you get a grip on
the “core beliefs”, the “basic tenets”, when those in the group can’t
even agree? As easily as I could, I’m not going to knock it, criticize
it. For what? If that’s your bag, go ahead. I will say based on what I
read and based on what you’ve posted, you may have a few more lives to
go. Push my buttons? What would Buddha do?
Makia, thanks. I appreciate your posts. I really do! But some of you
folks are making arguments based on your interpretations of
Christianity, not Christianity itself. Based on watching some
Christians who don’t know their ass from their elbow. Most of whose
interpretations are wrong and tainted by personal beliefs. Like any
religion I would presume. You can’t make the argument mainly because
you don’t know enough about it. You don’t, I guarantee you don’t. Just
like I don’t know enough about Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism. You can
critique individuals because you see their actions and subsequently
what they say they stand for. I won’t make the same mistake of
criticizing Buddhism based on how I watch some individual Buddhists and
what they do with their individual faith. It wouldn’t be my place to
say it’s this or that.
So what is Christianity? I’m still learning myself. I don’t hold all
the answers, or half, or a quarter of them. Neither does anybody. Judge
the individual and what he/she stands for. I know and see Buddhists who
say one thing and then turn around and do something entirely different.
So hypocrites exist everywhere. Or could it be that we’re all just
human and prone to error and emotion?
What we have are pre-conceived notions. Papal infallibility? Yeah,
that was silly as hell. That belief is gone now if you didn’t know. But
on the other side we have Buddha is “the god of gods”? That sounds just
Alright, enough for now.
Maybe i’ll try this one one.
and lastly, do I sound like the Christians who are banging the war
drums and raping kids? No! But we claim to come from the same root,
Christianity, right? So, it is not the root that’s bad, it’s the
branch. And a tree has many branches. Some dry up and fall down in a
storm, some yield many blooms and great fruit. Same tree, same roots.
Do with it what you will.
Hey, gold’s up! Whoo-hoo!! It’s the end of the world as we know it….
on zephyr. I don’t consider myself bhuddist for the same reason i don’t
consider myself christian. I’ve taken a more gestalt approach to the
combined matters of psychology/religion/spirituality/physiology. To me,
each of those four approaches can describe the benefit of “Godly
awareness” in its own language. Each set of concepts succeding and
failing where the others may not; but taken as a gestalt the body is
pretty thorough. In my mind, it is not enough to beleive what the group
beleives just because they beleive it and its easier to go along
(remember Jonestown). In my mind it is not enough to beleive that my
mind can figure out all things, or that i can exist in a vacuum
containing a perfect understanding and life (i.e. the community makes
us what we are in a special way).
ps Pono Huna = the old Makia
- ouch, you sure jumped into this discussion with both feet - I want to
see what zephyr has to say about this stuff - I will defer saying
anything until I watch more of the video
Pono Huna - just when I was getting a handle on Makia’s point of view - now I have to remember who you are, heh
Bp, for wanting to see my reaction. Initial thought? Well, I need to be
fair…I only watched the first piece. But it already smacks of
fundamentalist Christianity, and in my opinion, humble or not, those
fuckers are the rotten branch I referenced earlier. These snakes are
the ones gung-ho for war. These vipers are the ones who sow discord.
These hypocrites are the ones who feel they are the sole interpreter of
God’s word. They are the ones who willingly jump in the judgement seat
when the gospels foremost message is not to stand in judgment of
These are the people Kia and Makia reference when they speak of “Christianity Gone Mad!!!”
But to be fair, I’ll watch a little more. Was that good for you bp?
Pono Huna! There are already too many people who as individualists
think they have figured out God’s eternal word. There are too many of
them and they can become dangerous because individual interpretations
are subject to personal bias. I don’t advocate groupthink based on
following one individuals thoughts alone. As Pono Huna has
Sorry Skeptical, I’ve agreed with you other times but so far, that
guy on the video makes my flesh crawl. He might mean well sorta….but
#288 - since I was 16 I have believed that organized religion of any
kind is just a way tocontrol the minds of the sheeple and I still
believe that. Although, now a days we have television for that. Same as
big sports just a diversion to drudgery (if you have never seen the
movie Rollerball with James Caan I suggest you do).
I’ll say it again we all bleed red.
Remember what goes around comes around.
C’mon Ostrich, that’s way too critical and cynical. You’re going to
discount all the charity that’s done through organized religion that
otherwise would never have been done. That’s the old throwing the baby
out with the bathwater thing. And it’s insulting because you insinuate
that I’m therefore part of the sheeple and by my posts have I ever
struck you as part of the sheeple?
C’mon, you want to isolate, that’s cool. But don’t say others that don’t follow the same path are automatically sheeple.
I am not sure why the speaker makes your skin crawl other than he is
stating things that you don’t want to hear. The video I pointed you too
(221) is NOT the first one in the series so the speaker is relying upon
many concepts that he established AND PROVED in his earlier talks. I
took you to that one because I though it was very interesting and very
Do not judge, watch before judging.
Most of the speakers conclusions are not conclusions at all. He
quotes directly from written documents and uses WORDS out of their own
mouths. I implore you to watch MORE BEFORE pooh poohing the message.
Remember that I am SKEPTICAL (my handle here). I bought into the
message because from what the speaker was SHOWING me fit in with many
OTHER things I have DISCOVERED through the years from my own
I agree and have always felt that way also.
I still do not beleive in organized religion OR relying on other
people to determine what we should believe or how we should live.
I do NOW however, beleive that the Bible is full of tuth and should be read and studied.
BUT I still DON’T beleive in organized religion
watching that latter part of video Total Onslaught 221 (starting around
49:28) THEN read the below article from Ron Paul and SEE that what Mr.
Veith said would be happening is NOW happening in the US.
None of Your Business!
BY: Rep. Ron Paul, MD You may not
have heard of the American Community Survey, but you will. The national
census, which historically is taken every ten years, has expanded to
quench the federal bureaucracy’s ever-growing thirst to govern every
aspect of American life. The new survey, unlike the traditional census,
is taken each and every year at a cost of hundreds of millions of
dollars. And it’s not brief. It contains 24 pages of intrusive
questions concerning matters that simply are none of the government’s
business, including your job, your income, your physical and emotional
heath, your family status, your dwelling, and your intimate personal
The questions are both ludicrous and insulting. The survey asks, for
instance, how many bathrooms you have in your house, how many miles you
drive to work, how many days you were sick last year, and whether you
have trouble getting up stairs. It goes on and on, mixing inane
questions with highly detailed inquiries about your financial affairs.
One can only imagine the countless malevolent ways our federal
bureaucrats could use this information. At the very least the survey
will be used to dole out pork, which is reason enough to oppose it.
Keep in mind the survey is not voluntary, nor is the Census Bureau
asking politely. Americans are legally obligated to answer, and can be
fined up to $1,000 per question if they refuse!
I introduced an amendment last week that would have eliminated funds
for this intrusive survey in a spending bill, explaining on the House
floor that perhaps the American people don’t appreciate being
threatened by Big Brother. The amendment was met by either indifference
or hostility, as most members of Congress either don’t care about or
actively support government snooping into the private affairs of
One of the worst aspects of the census is its focus on classifying
people by race. When government tells us it wants information to “help”
any given group, it assumes every individual who shares certain
physical characteristics has the same interests, or wants the same
things from government. This is an inherently racist and offensive
assumption. The census, like so many federal policies and programs,
inflames racism by encouraging Americans to see themselves as members
of racial groups fighting each other for a share of the federal pie.
The census also represents a form of corporate welfare, since the
personal data collected on hundred of millions of Americans can be sold
to private businesses. Surely business enjoys having such extensive
information available from one source, but it’s hardly the duty of
taxpayers to subsidize the cost of market research.
At least the national census has its origins in the Constitution,
which is more than one can say about the vast majority of programs
funded by Congress. Still, Article I makes it clear that the census
should be taken every ten years for the sole purpose of congressional
redistricting (and apportionment of taxes, prior to the disastrous 16th
amendment). This means a simple count of the number of people living in
a given area, so that numerically equal congressional districts can be
maintained. The founders never authorized the federal government to
continuously survey the American people.
More importantly, they never envisioned a nation where the people
would roll over and submit to every government demand. The American
Community Survey is patently offensive to all Americans who still
embody that fundamental American virtue, namely a healthy mistrust of
government. The information demanded in the new survey is none of the
government’s business, and the American people should insist that
Congress reject it now before it becomes entrenched.
said I would watch the rest. He makes my skin crawl because I’ve heard
the same schpeil before many times, and the people behind them are
almost always hateful hypocrites hiding behind the bible.
Thanks for the article skeptical.
Eyes open, all
The Ladykillers, a remake of the original and another Coen brothers movie. One fine movie.
: In Munich (Germany), a blood libel resulted in the death of most of
the Jewish inhabitants. The one hundred and eighty survivors were
burned alive at the synagogue.
The real truth behind the killing of the Jews was that the local Jewish men were running around killing Catholic boys.
The local population of Catholics forgave them, offered them an
opportunity to repent and turn to Catholicism, but they refused. From
there, it went down hill.
1285: 180 Jews were burned to death in Munich, Germany, after refusing to convert to Christianity.
Flip, flop, it never stops.
Religion is the politics of Spirituality
Pono Huna, Zephyr.
it IS the community that counts, otherwise why would we be tippy-typing these comments?
My name is that of my old husky who passed on, and since I have
never seen the unending unconditional love than that which emanates
from dogs (I often wonder which monk transliterated Dog into God).
I adopted her name as my own spiritual name. Her full name is Malimu
Malkia which my Maasai brethren assure me means Mountain Queen in
Swahili, but after years working with those loveable jokers may just as
well mean “big white guy who knows nothing, and knows less every day.”
Which would also be appropriate.
I try not to believe anything, so I can prepare for everyting.
#308 The U.S Gov’t does a few good deeds too. I do not believe for one
second you are a sheeple or you would not test and question your faith.
I also do not hear you saying the minister said, the bishop said, what
I hear is: the bible said, Jesus said. Remember the TV evangilist must
get his 20 million? or the Lord will take him home 03/86.
Skeptical once the Catholics get you till 6 or 7 yrs old your their’s for life. I even had to go to Catholic Secondary School.
The main point I am making is that this board is full of people that
think,question and reason and religion should not be excluded from
critical thinking anymore than an inflation deflation argument. The
amazing thing to me about the posters here is they all seem to be very
genuine in their understanding of the fact we all bleed red.
too am totally discussed with organized religion. My reason is a bit
different. I think the primary purpose of any group or organization
that purports to have the best interest of their members in mind should
be to warn their members of current and impending dangers.
Every organized religion that I’ve come across, save one that I’ve
lost track of, hardly warns at all of the biggest threat to their
members. What is that threat, how about big out-of-control government
financed by fiat money? Why don’t they warn of this danger, well, could
it have to do with their being in bed with the tax collector for that
Just my two pre-1982 cents worth.
You got it, tax-supported churches are NEVER going to question the
government that grants them than status regardless of what danger they
pose to the parishoners.
Heavenly Bank Account by Frank Zappa
And if these words you do not heed
Your pocketbook just kinda might recede
When some man comes along and
Claims godly need
He will clean you out right through your
Thats right, remember there is a big
Difference between kneeling down
And bending over…
Hes got twenty million dollars
In his heavenly bank account…
All from those chumps who was
Oh yeah, oh yeah
Hes got seven limousines
And a private plane…
All for the use of his
Oh yeah, oh yeah
Hes got thousand-dollar suits
And a wembley tie…
Girls love to stroke it
While he’s on the phone
Oh yeah, oh yeah
At the house of representatives
Hes a groovy guy…
When he gives thanks
He is not alone…
He is dealin
He is really dealin
IRS cant determine
Where the hook is
It is easy with the bible
To pretend that
You’re in show biz
They wont get him
They will never get him
For the naughty stuff
That he did
It is best in cases like this
To pretend that
You are stupid
Hes got presidential help
All along the way
He says the grace
While the lawyers chew
They sure do
And the govenors agree to say:
Hes a lovely man!
He makes it easier for
Them to screw
All of you…
Yes, thats true!
cause he helps put the fear of god
In the common man
Snatchin up money
Everywhere he can
Hes got twenty million dollars
In his heavenly bank account
You aint got nothin, people
You aint got nothin, people
You aint got nothin, people
Thank the man…oh yeah
skeptical - how do I find other videos by Veith?
I watched the preview and the total onslaught 221 - thought you said there were more are they out there on goggle?
It is impossible to eliminate the bias of religious beliefs. Nothing
fair about religion when fundamental, core beliefs are examined.
One religion says this, the other one says that. You can’t work on
the Sabbath. It is Verboten. ‘The cow’s in the well’ doesn’t even wash.
One says you can stone somebody to death for being a ‘great sinner.’ On
and on, it won’t stop. Old Adam stuff, you know, hey.
Religion has built in bias, i.e. dogma. Iron maidens for the filthy
heretics. The Mayans sacrificed 20 thousand people a year on the
average for some reason or another, played basketball with severed
heads. George Washington didn’t like First Nation peoples. I have read
where he made riding chaps from Iroquois hides.
If you bash the Catholics for the Inquisition, you are going to
offend somebody. If you bash the Jews for being ‘money changers,’ you
are accused of being anti-semitic. If you make friends with them, you
become a self-loathing Jew loving goy.
You aren’t going to win. If you bash Muslims for their beliefs,
they’ll cut off your head, or, if you show sympathy for them, then you
will be accused of being with the terraists.
If you say you are an atheist, you end up like Madeline Murray
O’Hare. There is no win-win situation with religion. Nobody gathers at
So, all I say is believe in a higher being, it’s that simple. If you
don’t want to do that, that’s fine with me too. No strings attached.
‘To thine ownself be true’
“The unexamined religion isn’t worth following… man”
. . . isn’t worth following man.
just do a search on google video for “total onslaught” or the
professors name 3which will bring up some interesting science
discussions about creation v. evolution and fossile records that
support the Bible. Just search goggle video for his name - “walter j.
i’m with ya brother, say it!
before I read what was posted after I left for work today, I must say
this. I heard a story by a man who lived thru hurricane Katrina…and I
remembered a statistic I heard. Besides public relief sources like FEMA
and organizations like the Red Cross, do you know which 3 private
groups were the highest givers to relief victims? Guess first, and then
1) The US Roman Catholic Church and it’s members. Ok, so you’ll
argue that by sheer numbers of members, that’s not a surprise. Consider
the next 2
2) the Anglican or Episcopal Church of the US 2% of people in the US belong to the Episcopal Church
3) Jewish people belonging to Synagogues in the US Less than 2% of the population
Ok, so spin this negatively, I can’t wait to either hear some negative twist or worse, the sounds of silence.
I’m tired of the unmitigated bashing of organized religion as having no inherent value.
Oh, and whoever said they had Taoist tendencies, you’re really in the minority .02% of Americans.
Kia, you definitely have some sort of chip on your shoulder. I mean,
we all fall short in our various beliefs and faiths, but man, all I’m
doing is trying to provide some defense of a belief. YOU are the one
always on the attack to tear it down. Somehow, that doesn’t strike me
as even remotely sticking to the tenets of Buddhism as I understand
Makia, brother, I missed your call again as I was working…I always appreciate your comments and understanding.
1) The US Roman Catholic Church and it’s members. Ok, so you’ll argue
that by sheer numbers of members, that’s not a surprise. Consider the
2) the Anglican or Episcopal Church of the US 2% of people in the US belong to the Episcopal Church
3) Jewish people belonging to Synagogues in the US Less than 2% of the population
. . . okay, so not _every_ thing done in the name of Jedeo-Christian religion is evil. . .
I just want to say that when primitive thinking people get together,
they’ll find a common bond with some others and do dumb shit. That is
the source of the reflexive reaction against organized, dogmatic,
faith-based organizations. There’s just so much room for unquestioning
following and exploitation by the clever.
And to that end, muleskinner #320 is right on. There’s no arguement
that there are lots of blind followers and proud followers to these
traditions that “should” be teaching self-responsibility and _humility_
in the service of God.
But the spiritual-but-not-religious, if we are more than just
reflexive contrarians, should be thoughtful when making blanket
statements. Even thinking that every person right now is ready,
willing, or capable of just dumping the strongest sense of community
and internal strength that they have ever had, and embrace the Void of
uncertainty is ignorant to the pursuit of compassion.
Jesus taught compassion. He may have not wanted a great religion of
history developed in his wake, but i also don’t beleive that he thought
every one of the common folk could just abandon all thought of
faith-based dogma, kick out the high-preists, and start a new. . .what?
A secular society?
I beleive a spiritual reniassance is in order, but i also see the
early attempts by the “new agers.” Many, probably most, of these people
are folks burned by the excess and hypocricy within the Christian
churches and found some “Eastern” thoughts that “sound good.” What few
ever realize is that many of the Old Books were written by men _after_
realization. They knew that they could only try their best to explain,
in words, how the universe is constructed. Hundreds of modern wannabes
forget the all-important steps of compassion, self-development,
discipline, and time. “The gathering of chi is like adding a drop to a
bucket of water every day.” This has resulted in supposedly enlightened
individuals writing books and teaching seminars that to the perceptive
are either rehashed judeo-christian beleifs, child-level understanding
of Bhuddism, or the worst, egotistic rambling using fashionable words
like “love” “energy” and “karma”
My compassion is not lost on any of these.
God always finds ways to encourage us to stretch our perceptions,
and even reexamine what we beleive. Sometimes it is to encourage us to
change, sometimes it is there to help our resolve.
“All the paths that lead the way are winding.
All the lights that lead the way are blinding.”
“All the paths we have to walk are winding.
“There are many things that I would like to say to you. . .”
- but often i don’t know how
Huna, thank you for your insight. Hey, unless I’ve been missing you,
you are new to posting, correct? If so, welcome. Where are you from? Of
course, by the name I want to guess Hawaii, but watch it be Jersey
I was hoping someone out there would at least partially back me up. Thanks, again.
243, I was asking whether The Sacred Spiral talks about the ‘magic DNA’
making electromagnetic fields that extend outside the body. Very
Skeptical, dammit I can’t see videos here in the science library. Do
they talk about the Black Pope? That’s what some people call the Jesuit
General, who is also said to be a top Freemason. Rumour has it that the
Pope has to do what the Jesuit General says, and maybe that’s the
origin of this idea that the Pope rules the world.
On the other hand, the Jesuits seem to be in decline right now, and
Opus Dei has taken over, at least in influence in the Vatican. zephyr,
what’s your take on that?
And also, please, on this. John Paul II wrote something in one of
his Apostolic Letters (On the Christian Meaning of Human Suffering)
that really freaks me out. Here it is: ‘It is obvious that pain,
especially physical pain, is widespread in the animal world. But only
the suffering human being knows that he is suffering and wonders why …’
I’m a zoologist, see, and I really like animals. How can an animal
be in pain and not know it’s suffering? I suspect he was misled by the
scientists, who mostly believe that animals aren’t even conscious. But
I still kind of think he ought to have known better. Your thoughts?
Yes he talks all about the Jesuits, the black pope and papal
encyclicals. He uses THEIR own documents to prove his points. You
REALLY NEED to find a computer to view his work, you will understand it
and find it facinating.
qualifier is “and wonders why…” Obviously any creature knows it’s in
pain, but I would think only humans, perhaps a couple higher primates,
consider it and wonder why me, am I dying, etc. At least that’s my gist.
As for the rest, I have no idea as to the inner workings of the
Vatican. I wouldn’t even speculate who is tied to whom. Does the
Vatican have influence? Of course. As much as they once did? I can’t
see how. You know, I was thinking the other day, when people speak of
“old money”, man, who has older money than the Vatican? So of course it
buys influence. That’s why so many world leaders come to the Vatican to
see the pope. I’m sure it’s not just to pay their respects. Now, the
question becomes what do they do with the influence they are buying?
Certainly, at times it has been bad and other times it has been good,
depends who was pope at the time and who he surrounded himself with.
But to you doom & gloomers, well of course it’s always been evil
I have to laugh. Fundamentalist churches, many of whom haven’t even
been around 200 years (at least in the US), decry the Vatican for its
vast influence in world affairs. Well, what the hell are they doing in
the US trying to get themselves infiltrated into the federal govt to
foster their agenda. How is that different? Wouldn’t it be ironic if
they actually were working together?
Ok Skeptical, cut to the chase, what’s the Vaticans role in current affairs, what is THEIR ultimate goal?
Zephyr, its your old friend Makia. Makia and Pono are both Hawaiian words (See the link in my handle) from the Huna Principals.
These are my coyote ways. While i’m rather verbal, somethings are
most powerful when they go unsaid. Now that i said it. . . well its not
the first time.
I changed the handle for a couple of reasons.
Also, as far as the religion/philosophy debate; my entire
perspective of life i found succinctly summed up un seven words known
to the polynesians as “Huna” But it is something i rarely talk about.
Imagine with all of the hype about Christainity & Islam &
Bhuddism a guy saying “All the answers are in these seven Hawaiian
words.” Just because it is true doesn’t make the most useful thing to
bring it up every chance. But then again, the observant might have
noticed “makia” was contained in every single one of my posts. Now it
is “pono”, with another little clue for the curious and open-minded.
I am enamoured with the coyote teachers. It hasn’t exactly been my
“style,” but i admit it is probably a far more powerful method than
trying to be explicit.
heh, zephyr - Pono Huna is Makia’s new handle - hope my riff on his moniker didn’t push him to change it
you shouldn’t have divulged so quickly. It’s like a writer writing
under an alias. Hmmmm. Must leave for work. See you Monday morning.
I divulged it in my first couple of posts! Pay attention!
Have a great one Zeph!
bp, #334, i respect you a lot, but don’t go gettin’ full of yourself
know, in retrospect, you did but for some reason that didn’t connect. I
guess I was paying more attention to the content. I think I thought it
was a new person having a goof saying he was your alter ego because he
was using Hawaian as well and thought something like you….because it
Beleive me, i fool myself sometimes so don’t feel bad.
Now where did i put that opinion. . .?
zephyr Says: “Ok Skeptical, cut to the chase, what’s the Vaticans role in current affairs, what is THEIR ultimate goal? ”
Zephyr why won’t people take the time to watch the videos that I
told you all about? You want me to summerize 30 hours of well
researched and well documented information for you?
Ok here is the bottom line for those too lazy or unable to see the
videos (I know this all sounds crazy to some who are not familiar with
these ideas but Mr Veith in the videos show evidence from their own
The vatican/pope is the anti-christ spoken of in the Bible. Their
“plan” is to bring about a new world order - one world governement SO
that they can institute their one world religion - catholoscism (sp)!
They (the papalcy who worship Lucifer as their God) want to wipe out
protestism and ALL protestants (like a new inquisition - hey what do
you think all those detention centers are for?). DO any of you even
know who the protestants were or WHAT they were protesting? [hint
Rome/Vatican/Pope]. This world take over has been going on for
centuries and is NOW in its final LAST DAYS (as written about in
Revelations). The new world order is almost here. It will finally come
about through MUCH chaos and disorder (the papal motto is Ordo Ab Chaos
- Order out of Chaos). So expect MUCH chaos SOON coming to a theature
near you. The Professor who did these lectures (videos) also details
how Africa and what is happening there is the “mold” that will be used
in the rest of the world to bring about their New World Order. He shows
how in South Africa (where he lives) there is total chaos - loss of
private property - wealth redistribution - loss of privacy - loss of
the middle class - Crime galor! I showed you in a recent posting how
this is NOW escalating in the USA where a new “American Community
Survey” will be instituted very soon here and will go out to EVERYONE
EVERY year. It is 25 pages in length and asks for all kinds of personal
information. The reason for this survey (as shown by the video 221 part
II) is so the government can CONTROL every detail of every Americans
life. ALSO it is so when the shit hits the fan (very soon) if you have
a 4 bedroom home but only 2 people living in your home the government
can move in another family (because they lost their house in
forclousure or because there are so many imigrants who cant afford
housing, or some such “emergency” situation will be concocted - hey why
do you think greenie blew the housing bubble so big?).
WATCH THE VIDEOS if you care about what is happening in this world and what is ABOUT TO COME.
“Drinking rum from a pineapple out on Honolulu Bay…” - John Prine
Skeptical, you are betraying your moniker! (I know you know that, just trying to be funny.)
Skeptical, do you beleive in the influence of chaos would have power
over the influence of order? I would that the influence of chaos wipes
the fuckers trying to control off the planet. Can you know the secrets
of the Ninja and use them in this sense? It might be very valuable to
our loved ones.
God, assist us, we need your help.
“Oh, and whoever said they had Taoist tendencies, you’re really in the minority .02% of Americans.”
Can you tell me how this fact bears on our discussion?
Religion is a culture’s way of trying to explain the unknowable.
This is accomplished partly through the adoption or re-adoption of
myths from human history.
The only fact is that it is a Big Beautiful Mystery, Unknown and Unknowable.
“Kia, you definitely have some sort of chip on your shoulder. I
mean, we all fall short in our various beliefs and faiths, but man, all
I’m doing is trying to provide some defense of a belief. YOU are the
one always on the attack to tear it down. Somehow, that doesn’t strike
me as even remotely sticking to the tenets of Buddhism as I understand
I will stop challenging beliefs based on religious myths when those
who hold those beliefs stop trying to constrain my rights and the
rights of all those who don’t share the same religious myth based
beliefs. Just because those of us who are drawn to Zen or Taoism are in
a minority does not translate into having our lives constrained by the
beliefs of the majority.
Separation of Church and State is the Law of the Land in the US.
Religious myth based believers should keep that in mind all the rights
of all people are equal. If God exists I doubt that he/she/it will be
sorting us all out based on religious myths.
As for your continued personal references to me, feel free to keep
blowing them, as I regard them like a zephyr and let them go by. Please
notice that I do not and will try not to make the same of you. As I see
no more purpose in them than I do in judging other on the bases of
religious myths. But based on your repeated personal references to me I
will ask you who has the chip you refer to?
I Don’t Know and Neither Do You. That’s the fact that we are all
faced with. How we comport ourselves in the face of this fact is what
Doubt everything, Find your own light – Buddha’s last words, in Theravada tradition
#340 - I’m working my way through those videos - can’t speed them up -
just watched The Fossil Record Speaks - I always enjoy criticisms of
scientific models and theories
In the meantime, if you would do me the honor of reading this article, I would like to know your impression of it - http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html
great article I wish I was so erudite.
i like it too bp. . . good light reading
Pono Huna, Makia, Coyote Teacher and who knows what else,
Are these the principles you speak of?
What are the seven words?
I recommend you also watch the video title “Creation v. Evolution: What do the rocks reveal?”.
As far as the article goes, its fairly pathetic. The author says
“Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact…And humans evolved from
apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin’s proposed mechanism or
by some other, yet to be discovered.” Barrrrffff. He has a conclusion
in mind, that humans evolved from apes, and now he has to figure out
how that happened. Bad science.
Then he has the audacity to say “Evolutionists have been clear about
this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if
only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely
understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact)
Evolution is now a FACT??? Excuse me but It is STILL ONLY a theory.
But then he states “Our confidence that evolution occurred centers…”
Now his statement that evolution is a FACT has turned into “confidence”
There is NO such Fact that proves evolution nor that humans evolved
from apes so where does this moron come off stating that evolution is a
FACT?? (moreover where did the apes come from - hummm one wonders?).
Professor Veith shows, I think in the video you watched, that all
living creatures carry tremendous potential in their DNA to display
diverse characteristics. This potential shows up in different
circumstances. He shows how this explains the “fruit fly” example that
your evolutionist uses to PROVE that evolution is a FACT.
Then the evolutionist agrees with Veith - “Creationists have
tightened their act. They now argue that God only created “basic
kinds,” and allowed for limited evolutionary meandering within them.
Thus toy poodles and Great Danes come from the dog kind and moths can
change color, but nature cannot convert a dog to a cat or a monkey to a
So true but somehow we are suppose to buy into the FACT that
evolution can show that man came from an ape? You show me any evidence
anywhere that SHOWS that man and a dog came from some common
predecessor form of animal.
Out of his 3 arguements to PROVE evolution is a FACT this (the fruit
fly example) is the ONLY scientific basis to his “theory”. Bad science.
I do not know if EITHER of the “theories” will one day prove to be correct or if a third “theory” turns out to be correct.
If you are a Bible believer than you MUST beleive that the story of
the creation as written by Moses is TRUE. I was never a Bible believer
(although I am NOW begining to see MUCH truth in the Bible and am
battling with myself on what I will henceforth beleive) so I never
bought into the 6 day creation theory BUT I also never bought into the
idea that I evolved from some slime in a mud puddle or an ape. I
believe that I was created by God in his image. There is no way in hell
that I will EVER buy into the “theory” that I climbed out of a pond of
slime (ameba…fish…monkey…ape…man or whatever ridiculous theory they
want to rely upon)
I particularly like their “flowchart”
Thinking-> Resultant Attitude or Behavior-> Ineffective or Effective
There are only scientific certainties, no facts.
The Big Bang theory is a scientific form of ‘creationism.’
what I dislike about Veith’s stuff so far is that he takes things
people say out of context and uses it to make his case - the reason I
went to Gould’s article was because Veith used something he said in
support of creationism - I vote for a third way
another problem I had was Veith used the Mount St Helen explosion as
a demonstration of how the Great Flood did a mass extinction - why
can’t the fossils be caused by other volcanic explosions, if Mt St
Helen created an identical situation.
I’ll try to get to Creation vs Evolution, but think I am planning to
watch The Mystic Realm of Death next, did you see it - what did you
think of it?
are you aware other religions have stories of great floods - I think the original story came from Babylon
er, muleskinner - you been hitting the hooch again - there are no
scientific certainties, just temporary models which when they have
enough problems arise have to be modified — now i suppose we could get
into that Clinton thing - define “certainties”, “fact” - heck I know
apples fall to the ground - is that a fact or a certainty
as for the Bible - literalism is not wise, the Bible has
contradictory info between books, i.e., the books in the new testament
are a case in point - those eye witness testaments were recorded years
after the events and don’t match up exactly with each other - you
saying they have to be absolutely, literally true???
bp “I am planning to watch The Mystic Realm of Death next, did you see it - what did you think of it?”
Yes I watched it. In it Mr Veith tries to explain what happens after
death and what the “after life” are all about relying upon Biblical
passages. He attempts to show that there is no Biblical basis for a
belief in “heaven” or “hell” or reincarnation or spirit life.
I found the video very interesting to say the least (since I believed in spirit life and reincarnation).
As far “Veith used the Mount St Helen explosion as a demonstration
of how the Great Flood did a mass extinction - why can’t the fossils be
caused by other volcanic explosions, if Mt St Helen created an
I do not recall what his point was with Mt St Helens and the great
flood, but I think I remember that these fossils were all over the
earth and dated to the same time period so I guess there could be a
argument that there were MANY SIMULTANEOUS volcano explosions that
cause these mass graves. I also remember that he said that there was a
“crustecious” layer (chalk layer) over ALL areas of the world and was
using that to support the great flood.
I agree that MANY cultures worldwide have ancient great flood
writings. I do beleive there could have been such, doesn’t mean I
necessarily beleive in the Noah story though.
I am aware of the contradictory passages in the Bible and the other
things you state. These are reasons why I wrote the book off as being
the babbling of ancient peoples. That and the belief that I have that
religion is meant to control people and the Bible is the BOOK for all
But anyhow, I am not seeing that maybe I was throwing the baby out
with the bathwater and since I have an open mind, and giving it another
Creation vs Evolution?
Creation vs Evolution?
Creation vs Evolution?
Creation vs Evolution?
Don’t know? I Know we all bleed red and that makes us all brothers and sisters.
Adherents of string theory postulate that zillions of the strings
form together into “branes” which vibrate in time and space and that
when two of these branes touch that a universe is created. Thus making
the process of creation and destruction of universes continuous, a job
the Hindus had previously assigned to Shiva.
Likewise with Dark Matter, we suspect that it is there, but know very little or nothing about it.
Examining some of these models proposed by astrophysicists sometimes
I feel like I should advance the theory that the universe is contained
within a golf ball and God is about to tee off… So hold on.
What Clintoon did is fact. What science ‘reveals’ from discovery by accident are certainties. Nobody really knows for fact.
For your edification:
between the upper and lower members of the Ash Hollow formation is a
distinct band of gray-white volcanic ash that typically averages from
one to two feet in thickness in this part of eastern Nebraska. However,
along this particular gully the ash layer has a vertical thickness of
more than eight feet. Dr. Voorhies was elated to glimpse what appeared
to be a skull protruding from the bank near the top of the ash layer.
Digging revealed the complete skeleton of a baby rhinoceros that
apparently had been only a few months old at the time of death. Further
prospecting promised additional juvenile and adult rhino skeletons in
the immediate area which was no larger than an average-sized living
muleskinner - hm, then when an apple falls that is a fact, but to
predict that apples always fall is a certainty? am I following your
thinking here? or are you referring to conjecture about how things
happened in the past…before recorded history?…so that to say dinosaurs
existed is a certainty? ah, maybe we should just drop the whole thing,
I don’t think I’m following
that link was cool, though… my impression is that if creationist
want to establish their point of view they have to come up with some
testable “facts”, “certainties”, “theories”, “models” or whatever,
rather than magical thinking, otherwise anyone can believe anything
they want to believe…which takes me back to Bush and his “we create our
own reality” stuff
check out post 290…Bp said he was influenced by Taoism, that’s why I
mention it. You aren’t the only person I converse with on this site.
Lord, how many times do you throw out the word myth? Fine, let’s
drop it because trying to discuss with you is getting very trying and
you’re gradually getting more and more childish. So much for brother
this and brother that. I guess you toss all that out the window when
you get flustered or if someone doesn’t agree with all of your points
How in the hell am I constraining you? What, because I don’t agree
with you 100%. All I’m trying to do is see if you’re reasonable enough
to ackowledge religion has “some” value. You can’t even admit that,
which I’m sorry to say shows a very closed mind. Why am I trying so
hard? I don’t know, I really don’t…I guess because I find it hard to
believe someone who says such flowery, wistful things about the cosmos
and being wondeful to one another , can turn right around and say
something so definite about religion being the big, bad boogie man in
the world, and dismiss all the mindless people out there following its
Perhaps I should do the same, do a little research on Buddhism and
mock the inconsistancies. Say that it serves no general purposes with
some of it’s bizarre beliefs. It’s just as bizarre to believe in life
after life after life until you get it right. So Buddhism preaches it’s
all about the individual…no need for community because all a person
need do is crawl inside himself staring at his own navel. Is that why
religion bothers you because it seems Buddhism is just an intense
desire to solve everything by oneself. Sounds anti-social.
Skeptical, I’ll give it a try but I’ve heard this song and dance
before. The pope is the anti-Christ, huh? You know, I have
fundamentalists in the family and generally speaking, they’re all
crackpots. My wife’s aunt kept her dying mother alive by convincing her
father they would all go to hell if they didn’t put a feeding tube in
an Alzheimers patient’s stomach. So they tortured her and everyone
around her for another 6 months. That’s a wonderful version of
Christianity you got there.
Umm, I’ve heard others say you had some whacked out theories but I
gave you the benefit of the doubt. But that’s some crazy shit you’re
spewing. Oh God help us, the fundamentalist protestants are here to
save the day. You mean the same fundamentalists who have only been
around for 200 years or so? Oh my, what did Christianity do to survive
for 1800 years before those with such insight arrived? You mean the
same fundamentalists who treat the bible literally like it fell out of
The same protestants who forced tour guides at the Grand Canyon from
saying the canyons true age because it conflicts with the idea that the
earth is only 6000 years old? Oh, those folks. Oh yeah, can’t wait to
hear what crazy old Mr. Veith has to say, you know, the guy who looks
and talks like the crazy old minister in Poltergeist II. You know…”You
are going to Die!!!”
Don’t worry Skeptical, the rapture is coming, too. Funny, that an
invention of some nutbag about 150 years ago. Those damn Orthodox and
Catholics and Anglicans sure were stupid. The same crazy
fundamentalists who had to make up their own religious sites in
Jerusalem. Why? Because the real churches already had access to the
real ones so they had to make something up. Oh, can’t wait to see crazy
ol’ Mr Veith.
want to talk myth, Kia? The Dalai Lamas are the manifestation of the
Buddha of compassion who chose to take rebirth for the purpose of
serving other human beings? What kind of horseshit is that? And you’re
calling my beliefs myth. What’s that old expression about the pot
calling the kettle black?
And you know, I would never had said something like that if you
hadn’t crawled up my ass and tried to provoke me whenever I share my
opinions. “Feel free to keep blowing them and I regard them like a
zephyr and let them go by”. Buddhism indeed! Enlightened indeed! You
sure wear it really well.
Oh, how do you sign off? Peace and love, lalalalala. If only there were some sincerity behind it.
331, thanks. I have to say that I have had to completely rethink my
ideas about organised religion since knowing you. I grew up with a
great fear of Christianity, precisely because it had no-one like you.
The people I wanted to know and couldn’t find were people with your
extraordinary combination of straightforwardness and subtlety, sympathy
without sentimentality, and wicked humour.
Here’s my experience of Christianity. My father was a Christian. He
was told, I’m not sure by whom but I suspect ‘God’, that one of his
daughters was a genius, and the other a moron. I was the moron, and was
treated as such. My sister was the genius, and everything she said and
did was greeted with gasps of admiration. I exaggerate, but not much. I
can leave the rest to your imagination. Suffice it to say that it took
me 12 years to recover, and I went to Oxford at 30.
Now, the reason I asked about John Paul II and animals and suffering
is that my father’s idea of how morons should be treated fits in really
well with that. I was an animal, and however much I was hurt, it didn’t
matter because I wasn’t really a conscious sentient being.
My sister went to Oxford, consistent with her being a genius, but
she didn’t do very well, and I on the other hand did, and was runner-up
to the university prize in zoology. My parents were profoundly shocked,
and never really recovered. Within a year they were both dead.
My father was a high-ranking Royal Air Force officer, and was
trained partly at the Air War College at Maxwell Air Force Base,
Montgomery, Alabama. Maxwell is a known centre for military mind
control. I suspect, but cannot prove, that what happened to me was a
result of something that happened to him there. They can make you think
God is speaking to you, see what I’m getting at?
I am not, repeat not, trying to say that John Paul II was anything
like my father. I think he did his best under intolerable
circumstances. What I have read about the Vatican certainly qualifies
as intolerable. In fact you could say John Paul II was something of a
says “I’ve heard this song and dance before. The pope is the
anti-Christ, huh? You know, I have fundamentalists in the family and
generally speaking, they’re all crackpots. My wife’s aunt kept her
dying mother alive by convincing her father they would all go to hell
if they didn’t put a feeding tube in an Alzheimers patient’s stomach.
So they tortured her and everyone around her for another 6 months.
That’s a wonderful version of Christianity you got there.”
Boy you sure got a big chip there on your shoulder. What did I do to
you to deserve such a bashing? Why are you attributing YOUR crazy
(crackpot) family to me? Why is it MY version of Christianity?
Do you know anything about the Protestants or the Reformation? They
ALL said that the pope was the anti-christ not me. Look up Calvins
words, not mine. Look at the Popes encyclicals where HE says HE is God
and that HE can and will and does CHANGE the word of God. At the very
least the Pope is putting himself ABOVE God which is blastphamy.
Now if you break down anti-christ, anti means against, Christ means
well Jesus. So to be the anti-Christ would mean = against Jesus Christ.
Do the Churchs’ teachings go against Jesus’s teachings? Yes or no? Did
the Pope change the sabbath from the seventh day of the week as God
ordained to the first day of the week? Yes or no? To do so would mean
to abrogate Gods law and put yourself ABOVE God as only God or some
entity greater than God could CHANGE Gods law. So does those kind of
actions look to be Against Jesus who said to follow God’s law? Yes or
And Oh BTW who said anything about any Rapture? Are you putting words into my mouth now?
Grow up. Either dispute what the man has to say with EVIDENCE or
argue WHY he is wrong. Dont come here bashing me and making it personal
just because you have crazy family members who are fundamentalist
And what OTHER crazy theories do I put forth on this forum?
Now I know why my wife won’t let me talk about religion at parties.
Remember the old saying its what’s on the inside that counts!
ostrich - watch out, this is dangerous territory, heheh - your red
blood might end up flowing - I’m staying on the side lines myself - I’m
just asking questions so I can understand things better
Humans myths/fables/fairy tales have value.
Skep, guess that puts me in the Anti-Christ Pro-Jesus camp! Thanks I’ll take it.
Happy Sabbath Yall,
For what is it worth I am animal, so is my dog and we are going to be two happy souls out in the new snow today.
Yippie Ya Yo.
have fun kia!
you too my friend, btw I forgot to ask you about the Tao, do you have favorite writers? I love Lao Tzu.
Flocks of birds have flown high and away.
A solitary drifts of clouds has gone, wandering on. And I sit along with Ching-Ting Peak, towering beyond.
We never grow tired of each other, the mountain and I. - Li Po (d. 762)
“Grow up. Either dispute what the man has to say with EVIDENCE or argue WHY he is wrong.”
Thanks for that I am used to having discussions based on evidence,
if based on the evidence I am wrong I am more than happy to own up to
it, for the selfish reason that it helps my own development.
I am unaccustomed to have my arguments met with personal attacks,
but perhaps there is something for me to learn through it, as ostrich
says, maybe it is just better not to bring it up with certain
Peace and Powder!
Suffice it to say that nobody has a clue as to how we got here.
If I were a bettin’ man, I’d say we were hatched.
I really don’t care much for all of the theories, proofs,
postulates, hypotheses, or any of those explanations that fall far
short of what an answer might be.
“Why? There is no ‘why,’ it is the ‘how.’” - Quito from Ecuador
I worked with the native Ecuadorian on the railroad in Minnesota one
summer thirty years ago. I have met people for every corner of the
world. Zach from Afghanistan was the most fundamental of them all. I
worked with him in a youth hostel in Seattle when I was there for a
time. He had no passport, no visa, just a travel voucher given to him
through the United Nations from the offices in Basel, Switzerland.
I chose my words carefully when I spoke with Zach the Afghani. The
conversation lasted about two hours long. He wanted to discuss politics
and freedom. I said, “You are free, that’s all.” He couldn’t argue with
me about that fact. I just hoped to avoid being run through with his
cutlass down to and up to the hilt. Like I say, it is how you carry and
conduct yourself in this world. Finesse plays a big role.
Zephyr, if you want to don a pair of boxing gloves, I’ll fight ‘cha.
We’ll both be laughing when it’s over. I can’t really hate anybody.
You Got It!
I don’t know, and luckily I have lots of company because neither
does anybody else, whether they are willing to own up to that fact or
not, that’s the cosmic joke that faces us all and a commonality that
could potentially serve in uniting us as a global community to solve
the global problems before us.
It all comes down to our individual actions which count for more
than all the faith, belief, myth, fable, or fairy tale ever conceived
by the human mind.
Peace and Laughter at the Cosmic Joke.
kia, yeah I like Lao Tzu, lot of insight there - you might like this site - http://mattpaul.org/tao/te/ching.cgi?n_verse=1
muleskinner, I’d have to agree - if the major religions can’t agree
- I won’t listen to any - I will be more concerned with ethics and
conduct - I have been stabbed in the back many times by so-called
friends, but in looking back it is all now just humorous - I have not
really been hurt afterall
Thanks for the link. Luckily I think we can all agree on ethics and conduct!
the tao that can be told
is not the eternal tao
the name that can be named
is not the eternal name
the unnamable is the eternally real
naming is the origin
of all particular things
free from desire, you realize the mystery
caught in desire, you see only manifestations
yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source
this source is called darkness
darkness within darkness
the gateway to all understanding
other crazy theories? Oh, don’t know…there I was only quoting other
people on the thread. Chip on my shoulder regarding fundamentalists…oh,
yeah, damn right I’ll admit to that because I find them as a whole,
secretly hateful. Full of the love of Jesus but all to willing to cast
damnation on , well, pretty much everyone else. I watched the 10 minute
intro and it’s the same old shit I’ve heard many, many times.
Right, some of the popes in the past put themselves up there with
God. They were wrong. But fuckin’ get over it, those times are past.
Vatican still corrupt. I’m sure it is. I think Jane has it very
accurate. My wife worked on a book about the papacy. Holy shit, some of
the stuff in there will make your toes curl. But, please, changing the
Sabbath is a horrible sin? Protestants have promoted this oil war which
kills thousands of innocents. Have you checked the denominations of our
last few presidents. So they’re building concentration/detention
centers to imprison themselves. Uh, yeah, that makes sense.
Kia, at least grow the balls to address 359 and 360 before calling
an end to this. Maybe you have no answer because it gets to deep for
you to go. C’mon myth man, tell me about the Dalai Lama. Help me
understand that myth. You’re just acting like a little child now.
You’re taking a superior attitude in your curt responses. Help your own
development then, tell me some more about the Dalai Lama…enlighten me.
On second thought, the more I read your posts the more I realize I
might as well be talking to a stone Buddha. He just sits there with a
dumb grin on his face. That pretty much sums you up…go play in the snow.
Thanks, Jane…compliments aside, it’s nice to talk to someone of intellect. God, this makes me miss Gordo…almost.
No matter how strongly I come across, I don’t hate anybody either. My
strong language comes more from passion, and my upbringing, and where I
live. That’s how we talk. Don’t like it, too bad. Don’t anybody preach
to me about ethics.
Talk to someone that’s spoken to me on the phone a few
times…Makia….we don’t have a problem with each other. Because we have
intelligent, rational discussions. And he doesn’t get pissy and
childish like other posters we know.
My mistake was letting Kia bait me. My bad….won’t happen again….I
thought I was debating with a mature person….Answers like Yippie Ya Yo
and Peace and Powder speak volumes as to who I’m trying to have an
intelligent discussion with.
Keep blowing on, your personal attacks add so much to the quality of the discussion.
The first law of Buddhism is not to take anything personally, if you
review my posts they are directed at the institution of organized
NOT YOU. GOT IT YET? ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. CAN YOUR EGO HANDLE THAT?
Get over it Get on with it, Grow up. Argue issues and save the
personal attacks/judgments about people who have never met for kicking
the dog or so other forum.
Your posts speak much louder about yourself than anyone else.
times were tough in 1816.
Eighteen hundred and froze to death
have no solution and no one has.I have never been in a MAC’S AND NEVER
WILL.America is a people of want and waste.What ever happens blame
yourself..When times get TOUGH THE TOUGH will survive… that will be a
good thing.. Silverbill..
well, if someone is heavily involved in the institution of organized
religion, then it is personal. Personally, I don’t care anymore. You
keep talking ethics and issues but never answer my questions. I’m
trying to understand your criticisms based on your beliefs. Possible
you’re avoiding the answers because they might set the stage for
something that conflicts with what you’ve been preaching and how you’ve
been acting. That’s fine, indirectly, I have my answer.
and I thank everyone else for indulging my diatribe. Ask My wife, I get
very passionate sometimes in my beliefs. Doesn’t mean I don’t listen to
someone else. Maybe I’m wrong, but I always expect equal give and take.
That means you don’t have to agree with my views but be respectful of
them to some degree. When that doesn’t happen, as people continually
bashed the institutions I strongly believe in (and I’m supposed to not
take that personally?), I tried turning the tables to let them see what
it’s like. Talk to people in their terms.
That’s when my comments became “immature”. Seems like people didn’t
like when I got personal and starting making fun of their core beliefs.
OK, I got it. When you say stuff it’s OK, I just can’t do it. OK, I got
that. Whew! At least now I know how to act.
As far as the language, consider them as exclamation points.
Generally I find the people most offended by choice language to live in
areas where the majority hate cursing but have no problem with killing
“those filthy Muslims.” Mmmm, strange world we live in. Indeed.
Lastly, signing off with peace after after being a jackoff in your
post doesn’t absolve everything you said and make it all better. Be
sincere in your sign-offs. At least, that would be my advice. I’m sure
that’s wrong too.
sceptical, other Christains who read this, before i post this, i just
want you to know that that this is not meant as a dig on anyone. Just
some food for thought for the thoughtful and considerate.
Criticism is important. Many avoid it, others over-do it. My take on
it is: if a person says they want to go to Pittsburgh, and they are
driving towards El Paso, and someone points it out, then how much of a
criticism is that? Most people have a very hard time dealing with
“criticism”. But in my mind, you just look around, check the sun, and
say, “No, this is the right way to Pittsburgh.” or “Oh, I _was_ taking
the long way.” If someone takes offense at a suggestion, it is likely
because of insecurity. How hard is it to check the sun? How hard is it
to admit you don’t know? How hard is it to change direction to go where
you say you are going? How hard is it to say, “No, i’m going the right
way.” Amazingly, people are just so darn sensitive. I’ve defined this
as “attachment to ego.” The ego is the only part of you that cares
weather you are “right” or “wrong”.
I’ve got to catch up a little, the creationism vs evolution is a
crazy arguement. But i wanted to tell you kia that that link is the
Huna principals and the words are in the site contained in my handle:
I’m glad you like it.
Yes, these principals are not very close to beleifs. I think a
better desription would be a “guiding philosophy.” Not very close to
myths. But then again, perhaps they are farthest from the _real_ truth.
Perhaps the real truth is that “God” sent his “only” son to live and be
murdered, that man’s sins throughout history and eternity are
“forgiven.” Perhaps that all other thoughts are meaningless,
particularly because the more “sophisticated” thoughts a man has can
only take him away from the _real_ truth that is put so simply in the
last sentence. Perhaps all other thoughts are essentially sins, i.e.,
not bringing one a deeper understanding of a fact that is not very deep
to begin with: “Jesus died for humanity’s sins, that’s all you got to
Pono - “truth is the measure of effectiveness.” That just clouds the
water. Obviously a sin. There is only _one_ truth, and humans can’t
judge effectiveness on that level.
Makia - “energy flows where thought goes.” more mud in the water.
Manawa - “now is the moment of power.” to the Christain the momment
of power was 2000 years ago. Today (now) we just live in sin and wait.
That, to me, is a “beleif”: To pull a thought from the article
posted the other day about the evolutionist v creationists - that Jesus
died for all man’s sins is not falsifiable. To me, it is a pure
leap-of-faith. Of course, when you are raised to beleive it, there’s no
faith involved. That may or may not come later i suppose.
That it is so hard to beleive in is why i think many Christians
dedicate their lives to convincing others by any means. By convincing
themselves it is the _only_ thing to beleive, that all others should
beleive it, it keeps one from those “dangerous” internal mommments of
And what if there are good people, who harm none and steal from
none, who aid the needy and take care of their family, who were not
raised to beleive in the myth of salvation? Or who are so confused by
the hypocrisy within the people who preach the myth that they are torn,
and seek out multiple reasons for being good people?
I don’t even see the motivation to be a good person in the salvation
myth. If you only need to beleive the non-falsifiable, then you have
completed the important task for your life on earth, then. . . if
ridiculous isn’t the word, then i’ll just call this way of pervciving
creation absurd. And keep in mind that i think my own mom is a
wonderful person and a devout Catholic. And she’s not the only one i
know and care about. Being Christian does not make one saved, and not
being Christain does not preclude one from heaven. Everything after
that you’ve gotta figure out on your own.
Christain dogma, as it is taught, is incomplete. To round it out,
one must use other sources of experience and thought. That itself goes
against much of the dogma. That there are various interpretations of
the Bible, and most followers beleive only in their interpretation, or
their “preist’s” precludes so much growth. To the semi-conscious, this
is impossible, but they ignore that they sin when they try and figure
out what is already supposed to be “non-evident truth” that simply must
be beleived in “on faith.”
This is just too much to think about. Thats why i don’t think about
it any more. I just live a good life. And here’s what _might_ happen,
in my mind:
I die and go to heaven. St. Pete says, “right this way,” and i
follow him back to a big white room with a throne. God’s there and he
says, “Pat, you did a great job. You learned your lessons about
stealing and cheating and after that you did your best to encourage
others, and encourage your children, to be good people who serve my
creative will. In your life you were extremely patient, and while you
were not perfect, i am proud of your effort.”
“But there’s one more thing before you go and enjoy enternity. . .
(Jesus enters the room, stage left) I want to introduce you to my one
and only son who died for all man’s sins. (He says this with a big
smile on his face, ’cause he knows that it provides the resolve i never
knew in life if i would get). Now you guys can go play some ping-pong
’cause i know you have some questions for Him.”
skeptical - check this article - interesting on the problem of faith versus science - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/science/12geologist.html?hp&ex=1171342800&en=d6803b73375ee4bc&ei=5094&partner=homepage
it’s an interesting area for me - the lines between belief and science
are getting blury as to what is “real”- there are problems with science
- I say that even though I have a fairly heavy science background. I
think I’ll see go read Rupert Sheldrake’s “The Presence of the Past:
Morphic Resonance” I think somewhere in the future both “science” and
religion are going to have to give ground on what is “real” - in the
meantime I hope to keep an open mind - I have that Evolution or
Creation: What do the Rocks Revel up to play - wish I had more time to
go through this stuff!
can I call you that? - so hard to remember the whole moniker - nice
post - thanks - “blessed are the peacemakers…”, keep up the good work
If all the Christains are right i am so screwed.
heh, all the Christians don’t agree amongst themselves - which set of beliefs do you choose to be screwed by?
touchee, and don’t think i didn’t catch that
“Everything after that you’ve gotta figure out on your own”
That the good news, you are the expert on your own life, and no one
can walk your spiritual path. Judging whether others are right or wrong
are a distraction as the energy of judging does not move you any
farther down the path.
Thanks for the principles, I’ll take ‘em.
Add me to that screwed list, or course they probably still have my
security profile from the “no fly” list during Inquisition and the
I plan to fly anyway.
Pono - I didn’t intend that interpretation, but since you picked up
that implication, I have to chuckle - I guess in a sense we all get to
chose our own poison…yet we must chose something to guide us in our
decisions - we can’t just not act, one can’t always hesitate and not
make a decision - argh, procrastination thou art my nemesis, hehe
Do you think Jesus is a southpaw?
think its as much of a growing experience for my mom as it is for me.
My life and words force her to look at her faith differently. Of
course, she still has the faith. And i see her as a wonderful person
who’s day-to-day life is filled with integrity and a purpose that
serves the planet and the economy simultaneously. Ghandi did his thing,
Jesus did his, my mom does hers, and i do mine. Many ways to serve the
The whole creationism v. evolution thing is also absurd in my mind.
It doesn’t affect my day-to-day life one little bit. I can stop the
evolutionist arguement in a simple thought, “God created the universe
to look old.” I can stop the creationists with one thought, “Beleiving
that God created the planet to _look_ like evolution occured is pretty
Nonetheless, what does the arguement have to do with anything relevant to my day-to-day life? How i treat others?
I guess it is the “faith-based” people trying to poke holes in the
religion of science. I don’t have a problem with that persay. And hey,
maybe we didn’t come from apes. Maybe we were aliens who came from
another planet. Maybe all life is for that matter. . . But the lessons
provided by the ability of species to adapt are pretty valuable, even
if god just spontaneously created the blueprint without actually making
life go through it. . .
But then She created the ultimate religion which says you should
beleive in the way it _really_ happened, not the way it _looks_ like it
happened. Then gave us the CHOICE to either beleive the somewhat
obvious and logical (sin), or beleive in the sporadic and illogical
(salvation), the power in the beleif being that God doesn’t HAVE to be
efficient or make sense, She’s God! You’ve gotta be really EVOLVED (and
listen to the Priests) to understand how powerful God is.
Oooooo, that tricky God!
Its like we have to beleive that we have Choice even though the
universe is basically Fated out and pre-determined. I mean, its ALL
about One Guy who already died. The only real choice is weather or not
to beleive the unbeleivable. All the rest of the thinking we do is just
missing the point. . .
Now that i’ve really realized this i’m gonna go join a seminary. . .
thanks alot for the feedback guys.
I’m an hour and 13 minutes into A new World Order. Help me understand
something- Ptotestants have voted all these “freemasons” or whatever
into office. All these people they vote in are fellow protestants and
proclaim all the values of Protestantism. So are they all being duped?
I mean, if all these people are so anti-pope and anti-Catholic, how are
they being tricked into voting in all these people that are supposedly
carrying out the Vatican’s agenda?
I’m not trying to be a wiseass on this one, I’m serious. How do you explain what seems to be a discrepancy to me.
you said in a previous thread:
“my hunch is that science and religion will begin to merge as we
move forward - hopefully for the better, especially if eastern
philosophy is part of the mix - think you can already see it in quantum
physics and biology theories now”
I suspect that this convergence is part of the process that will be required to grapple with the problems that confront us.
From the time I read Franz Capra’s “Dancing Wooly Masters” to
reading about the Dalai Lama’s interest in science to aid in the
exploration of consciousness I have all felt that they are
complementary, not exclusionary.
I think consciousness is one of the most interesting places for this
convergence. We all know we have one, but when physiologists try to
“locate” it in the body they fail.
I suspect that is a result of the symbiosis between the brain and
heart and that it is coupled with all other life through electomagnetic
and quantum mechanical principals that we have yet to grasp.
I guess the best conception I have of God is the unknowable. As a
scientist and amateur methaphysician I try to understand the universe
while at the same time trying to maintain a sense of humor in the face
the cosmic joke of trying to know the unknowable.
“What a Long Strange Trip it Has Been” - Robert Hunter, Grateful Dead
Count me in as on of the Grateful Living.
zephyr - I might have some insight into that - from what I read there
is a point in all of these esoteric hierarchies like freemasons that
the initiates have to be taught that the opposite is true - they turn
the whole idealogical system on its head (kind of like the star being
upside down)- say when a person reaches the 33rd degree level of the
masons, too bad my dad only reached the 32nd degree level, heh - but
then, following this argument there are those high up in the different
institutions like the Catholic church (read Jesuits here) that are
really followers of the dark side - hey, not that i believe that, but
that does seem to be the argument used (more or less)
kia - I agree living is an amazing trip, and I also agree with your
point of view of how things are progressing - seems that changing one’s
world view is a painful process sometimes - I don’t want to force
anyone to look through the telescope (or take the red pill), but
sometimes others get a little demanding in what I should and ought to
be, do and believe, hehe
Huna, since I can’t get an answer from the wise one, help me to
understand the Dalai Lama. Do most Buddhists believe he is multiple
reincarnations of Buddha by choice to guide people? Do you believe
this? As I read it, many Buddhists do believe this. If you do, how do
you compare it to the “myth” of Jesus? What do you make of the fact
that of all other religious figures/leaders, Pope JP II and the Dalai
Lama met some 13 times or so, more than any other.
I am genuinely interested in trying to understand and learn more.
Perhaps you can help. I don’t want to be repetitive but your fellow
Buddhist won’t or can’t seem to answer these questions. I guess it was
easier for him to tear down what he doesn’t believe than to explain
what he purports to believe.
380, how’s this for a heretical thought: that Jesus didn’t die so our
’sins’ would be ‘forgiven’, which is something I’ve never understood,
but for a completely different reason: to show us that turning the
other cheek and ‘loving your enemy’ can give you magical powers. So you
can defeat death. How many people actually believe he rose from the
dead? Well, I do. zephyr, your thoughts?
393, that sounds like a case of banging a square peg into a circular
hole to fill in the holes in ones theory. Sort of like the missing
link. Can’t explain it, let’s just gloss over it. I will say this Veith
guy makes some interesting points. I did say I would give him a chance.
Right now, he’s droning on in another page I have open. This one is
called the mists of time and I’m 30 minutes in. Think I’ll have to pick
another one. If you talk for 30 minutes without really saying anything,
chances are you would have had a better profession in sales or in the
I definitely believe he rose from the dead. I mean, he freaked out his
followers enough that they travelled the globe to preach a message.
Something extreme happened. The fact that it got misconstrued and had
current cultural myths woven into his story should come as no surprise.
You’re theory has validity. I’ve always thought the official line fed
by the church, whatever that denomination that may be, was too
simplistic and left no room for other possibilities and interpretations.
“I mean, if all these people are so anti-pope and anti-Catholic, how
are they being tricked into voting in all these people that are
supposedly carrying out the Vatican’s agenda?
I’m not trying to be a wiseass on this one, I’m serious. How do you explain what seems to be a discrepancy to me. ”
Because People are ignorant and brain washed. I don’t think most of
the sheeple know much of anything these days. Do you really beleive
people are informed? By whom have they been informed? The media, their
government, of I know their 501(c)(3) (government blessed) pastor, oh
yea that is where they get their information.
gimme a minute to respond zephyr. i can tell you what i think. . . and
knowing me it usually involves a whole bunch of words.
zephyr - you seem to have a different set of videos to watch than i do
- what did you search on - I searched on walter veith - i’ll try to by
pass that mists of time one - guess I’m more interested in the area
where science and religion meet
skeptical, what you’re saying is everyone is in on this one world plot?
Even so-called protestant figures are selling out to this one world
religion? I’m listening to the UN and the occult agenda now.
It’s an interesting theory. It does seem all the major world
religious leaders are “talking”. If what you say is true, the logical
choice to have “one” figurehead lead everyone, I guess the favorite in
that race is the pope. After all, they already once held that position
once in history. Why not give it another go? They certainly have the
infrastructure and resources.
And here I was thinking it was so nice that everyone was uniting in
peace and prayer. C’mon, what if these folks do have good intentions?
You’re going to tell me ALL these world leaders are evil? The pope, all
Imams, the Dalai Lama, Billy Graham, etc, etc. Because all these people
have met over the years quite a bit. It’s all bad intentioned? Could it
just be that the followers of the various faiths, generally less smart
shall we say than their leaders, are a paranoid lot? Suspicious of
anything different in another culture or religion?
381, have you read The Facts of Life, by Richard Milton? He says there
is no evidence for the earth being 4 billion years old. I mean, none at
all. It’s just a figure people thought sounded kind of plausible to
explain the gaps in the fossil record. If under certain circumstances
forms can change very fast, the fossil record would be consistent with
a much younger earth. I mean like thousands, not even millions, of
years. So he says.
Bp, I did the same search as you…type in walter veith in google video. There are many different topics that come up.
Jane, et al. I remember seeing a different interpretation/translation
of “turning the other cheek” that showed it wasn’t about pacifism (or
masochism). I just CAN’T REMEMBER what the other
I have lost so much of knowledge i once held in this area; so this
should be considered amatuer, but i have read and seen tons of stuff
about translations of the original texts and historical reference that
shows that what was written back when meant something different than
how we read it today. Just a matter of cultural and historical
I never held on to or memorized the details, it was enough for me to
understand the gist. But one of the things that stands out to me is the
story of the good Samaritin. The thing about this story that is _often_
lost is that the Samaratins were the _Enemy_ of the Jews of that time
and place. That a Samaratin would help when the Preist would not was
HIGHLY PROVOCATIVE. Its not just a simple matter of a good stranger
stopping to help. It is also about paying attention to who you call
your enemy and why.
To me, another very PROVOCATIVE aspect of the Jesus story is Holy
Week. Who realizes that Jesus knew exactly the message he was sending
when he came in the East gate on a donkey? Jesus didn’t _accidentally_
fulfill a prophecy.
I have to go, will be back.
bp “skeptical - check this article - interesting on the problem of faith versus science - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/science/12geologist.html?hp&ex=1171342800&en=d6803b73375ee4bc&ei=5094&partner=homepage
it’s an interesting area for me - the lines between belief and science
are getting blury as to what is “real”- there are problems with science
- I say that even though I have a fairly heavy science background.”
Yes I read the article, interesting. You don’t usually find people willing to open their minds to “the other side”.
I am also have a heavy science background (Major Computer Science,
minor Physics). BUT even with that heavy science background I still
CANNOT buy into the evolutionists arguements (maybe I needed to get
more earth science progoganda pumped into my brain). I don’t know what
the answer is. No one does and I believe we will never reach an answer
as this, along with so much else in this COMPLEX world is just
zephyr 398, wow! Love it
zephyr “C’mon, what if these folks do have good intentions? You’re going to tell me ALL these world leaders are evil?”
zephyr no I do not beleive all these people are evil or that MANY of
them understand the true intentions, goals, or god (lucifer) that they
are worshipping. Most of these people (I beleive) are just as much
ignorant of what is going on as the sheeple (and the Catholics and the
protestants, and the…. ).
ps, i know these are the serious mistranslations i suggested, but they are the ones i remember.
It has been suggested by Darwinists that Darwinism has become propaganda for the political animals.
I will engage you when you can leave your personal attacks behind.
Until then the resources are out there to answer your questions,
without having to attack me or my intelligence. Your repetitive
personal attacks do nothing to further our discussion.
I’m sure Copernicus and Kepler could lend some light to the
discussion, Pono Huna told me that they are dead locked in a doubles
ping-pong match with him and Jesus. But then Pono Huna is my coyote
Based on my understanding of history Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed, Moses,
Abraham, Lao Tzu etc. were all holy men, who have been mythologized
What remains are the interpretations by scholars of the mythological
past. The books of Paul (Saul), Luke, Mark, John were written by groups
of such scholars. Since they had competing interests for the editorial
eye of Constantine, who made the decisions on who got included in the
Bible and who didn’t there invariably was quite a lot of political
wrangling, out of which the Gnostics were largely left in the cold.
Recent work by biblical scholars suggest much different histories
for Mary Magdelane and Judas than have previously ascribed. I assume
that this process is inherent with the mixture of history, myth,
legend, politics and human nature.
I suspect the same process went on in constructing the I’Ching, the
Tao de Ching, the Upanishads, Riga Veda and every other holy text every
Archaeologists have had no luck in turning up any evidence of such
things events as the Exodus or 40 years of wandering in the desert, not
Dating of artifacts invariably indicate that they of more recent origin that what was ascribed to them.
Luckily we have had the benefit of modern teachers such as Ghandi, Martin Luther King,
John Paul, and the Dalai Lama who exemplify the best of the concepts
that we have inherited over the last 10,000 years of human development.
Tenzin Gyasto, is the current and 14th Dalai Lama. Tibetan Buddhists
believe that is he is the incarnation of the past Dalai Lama. Their
method to find him was to search the countryside with a set of personal
possessions belonging to the past Dalai Lama. Each “candidate” is
exposed to a test, during which he has to correctly identify the items
belonging to the previous one. The term Dalai Lama translates as Ocean
Do I believe this? I don’t know what to believe, and so try to stay
clear of belief, preferring observation and action. Does reincarnation
exist? Don’t know. How about virgin births, walking on water, parting
the Red Sea, rising from the dead (a form of re-incarnation). Don’t
know, wasn’t there to observe it.
Its like your reply to Harrold Bloom’s quote
You said that there were probably verifiable facts about the Buddha.
To this I agree. My comments religious myths are meant to apply to ALL
Religions, not just yours or mine. In the absence of verifiable facts
the truth remains:
I Don’t Know and Neither Do You.
That is the common basis you and I share;-)
How we comport ourselves in the face of this metaphysical
inheritance and the inherent unknowablility of the cosmos is what
defines our freedom.
My observations are focused on organized religion, an are not intended to be taken personally. How you react is your choice.
Once again, whether your believe it or not:
Peace to You, Your Wife, and All of Us, and of course, best to your Mom in the nursing home.
Skeptical, here’s my thing- who’s good and who’s bad? I have a hard
time believing everyone listed by Veith is a bad guy. Let me play
devil’s advocate (yikes, bad term to use in this case!).
What if some good people genuinely believe something like this is
right for the times. If you have a kind and benevolant leader, which
HAS happened throughout history, then you do have peace and prosperity.
I still stand behind my belief John Paul II was just that, a very good
man. So in that case, all would be fine…..in theory. Now here’s the
problem-what happens if the next pope (assuming he’s the leader
everyone agrees on, the one you say is coming) is evil. That’s why
power, whether it be political or religious, should never be in one
person’s hands. How much worse history has taught us, is if that one
leader is BOTH political AND religious. That’s why our forefathers
created seperation of church and state. They HAD seen the effects of
So, I think you have a situation where there are good and bad people
with different agendas. And the good people are being duped? I don’t
know. It’s still quite hard to grasp. I’m of the opinion the Vatican
has no where near the power and influence it once had. I actually
thought it had reinvented itself and left behind its corrupt and power
hungry days. There have been alot of popes over 2000 years. Some were
downright evil, and some were saints. I think we’ve been in a good
“phase” recently. Nothing to say that can’t or won’t change.
And some prophecy says there’s only one pope left after this one.
So, is he the evil incarnate deceiver you claim, or is he Peter the
Roman, who some believe with be a force of good to fight the “real”
anti-Christ? And why do I feel like I’m in a Hollywood office pitching
some wild new script?
glad to be communicating “normally” again. Wow, when we butt heads, we
don’t mess around, do we? Hope it was entertaining to everyone else
“So in that case, all would be fine…..in theory. Now here’s the
problem-what happens if the next pope (assuming he’s the leader
everyone agrees on, the one you say is coming) is evil. That’s why
power, whether it be political or religious, should never be in one
Agreed, but that is why we should NOT have a one world government.
Also let me clearify something, I am not calling ANYONE good or evil.
If you buy Veith’s research (which seems to me to have much merit)
then the “Roman Catholic Church” run by the “pope” is the anti-christ
(= against christ). Does that make the “church” or the pope evil? I am
not saying that. Evil to me means to intentionally hurt, kill, destroy
people, and their property (like Bushwacker and his sanctioned
If the pope and the world leaders are really using the occult and
really are praying to lucifer to get/keep their power over the world,
is lucifer evil? Wasn’t his “sin” that got him expelled from “heaven”
that he wanted to be God? If that is so, and he has taken control of
the world and now has the world worshipping him (even if most don’t
know who they are worshipping), then he has succeeded in taking Gods
place, right? Is that evil? Not from where I sit, but is it blasphmy?
Yes. Does it displace the God the creator of man and the earth
(assuming you buy into those ideas)? Yes. Is that evil? No not
I have pondered for years this thrust for a one world government.
WHY? Why are all these nations willing to give up their sovereignty to
a single world leader (oh my gawd it is bad enough that a country is
run by a single man but the world??? Yikes). A friend of mine tells me
it is just a natural drive of man to want to control others and take
others property. Being a woman, I have a hard time understanding that.
Also I have studied history and LAW intensively. I have reached the
conclusion that the legal system that we live under today in this
country (USA) is the ROMAN CIVIL LAW that Rome used centuries ago and
NOT the common law (Gods law) that we were given when this country was
born. WHY? Why did we lose our Common law (the HOW we lost it I know,
but WHY we lost it I can’t figure out) and accepted in its place the
Roman Civil Law (admiralty/maritime law or the law of war, conquest,
and commerce). The Roman Civil Law is anti-freedom. Since we are now
under the Roman Civil Law system you could argue that Rome still has
power over this country. Also there is a charter that was signed in
1213 (two years before the Magna Carter) that made the english pay a
tribute to the pope FOREVER. Some think that our tax system (1040s) are
the tribute that is paying for this 1213 Charter. When you take just
these two examples you can see that Rome STILL to this day holds sway
over this country Legally and Economically. Does this mean that Veith
is correct? No, but it certainly adds weight to his arguments (in my
Mcnosis, Boomers, Crash ……..How did we get to The Life of Brian?
very entertaining you two - now that the storm has past I’m going to
work in my garden - 57 degrees here - make hay while the sun shines
dr jane, haven’t read that book - is this site worth investigating?? - http://www.alternativescience.com/
ahh come on skeptical - gotta have a little faith in things becoming
a little more understandable…though right now it looks hopeless - I
still have hope and faith in the future
I was thinking of you (fondly of course) last night, after posting
my “ITS NOT ABOUT YOU” post (I think it was my first experience with
all caps, exploring my anti-e.e. cummings self) the purpose was provide
EMPHASIS without resorting to personal attack, curses, or useless
vitriol that only serve to retard understanding rather than promote it.
I was watching a two CD set of “The Money Masters: How International
Bankers Gained Control of America”, which I highly recommend. What made
me think of you is some of the quotes from Pope Pius XI who was
cautioning against the control from the “money-changers”.
I found his comments interesting because my observation is that at
this time in history religious believers of all stripes are having they
faith hijacked (Christians by Neo-Cons, Jews by Zionists, and Muslims
by the clerics and Mullahs) to the detriment of all not to mention the
damage done to the prospects of peace.
The unholy alliance is exemplified of the alignment of Church and
State, and the myriad of financial agreements between the two. As a
constitutionalist, I see no advantage to humanity through this
alliance, as it religion then becomes just another lever to be used by
the PTB. The churches have been co-opted by the government due to their
I think that most of the violence/injustice we see are nothing more
than the financier’s dream profit method. Our current adventure in
Pipelinestan is the best example I can currently think of, as the only
winners in the war on terror appear to be defense contractors.
Given this observation, my action/contribution is to try to cut
through all the dogma, belief, faith, opinions etc. to establish what
we share. Obviously my efforts leave much to desired based upon your
personal reaction, and on that basis I admit to being far from
“Art is Hard, Life is Short and Success is Very Far Off” - with
apologies to someone I don’t remember (bp, where’s that red pill you
I have had the high privilege of living with indigenous people in
South America, Africa and Asia over the last 25 years, they have taught
me that as humans, we all share a common nature.
I think that the way forward is to build on our common nature to
solve the global problems that face us (climate, energy, food etc.) I
think the sooner that we focus on our commonalities the better, and the
basic fact is that all our time and energies are limited. The only
choice is how are we going to use them.
I’m not interesting in using mine against you, me or any other human.
The time has come to wrest the control of the world from the hands
of the financiers and put it back in the hands of the 6 billion people
who inhabit it. It the best path to (yeah you guessed it):
P.S. We need to take a page from the Sadomasochists and come up with
a “safe word” to avoid future head butts, if for no other reason other
than respect for the other posters who have the scroll through our
interactions and I doubt they are masochists.
Do you have any good idea for our safe word.
where’s your garden, Denver?
Ostrich, the Life of Brian instructs us all how to grapple the crash:
MR. FRISBEE III:
Cheer up, Brian. You know what they say.
Some things in life are bad.
They can really make you mad.
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you’re chewing on life’s gristle,
Don’t grumble. Give a whistle.
And this’ll help things turn out for the best.
Always look on the bright side of life.
Always look on the light side of life.
If life seems jolly rotten,
There’s something you’ve forgotten,
And that’s to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you’re feeling in the dumps,
Don’t be silly chumps.
Just purse your lips and whistle. That’s the thing.
Always look on the bright side of life.
Always look on the right side of life,
For life is quite absurd
And death’s the final word.
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin.
Give the audience a grin.
Enjoy it. It’s your last chance, anyhow.
Always look on the bright side of death,
Just before you draw your terminal breath.
Life’s a piece of shit,
When you look at it.
Life’s a laugh and death’s a joke. It’s true.
You’ll see it’s all a show.
Keep ‘em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
Always look on the bright side of life.
Always look on the right side of life.
Come on, Brian. Cheer up.
Always look on the bright side of life!
Always look on the bright side of life!
Worse things happen at sea, you know.
Always look on the bright side of life!
I mean, what you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing.
You’re going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!
Always look on the bright side of life!
Nothing will come from nothing. You know what they say?
Always look on the bright side of life!
Cheer up, you old bugger. Come on. Give us a grin. There you are. See?
It’s the end of the film. Incidentally, this record’s available in the foyer.
Always look on the bright side of life!
Some of us have got to live as well, you know.
Who do you think pays for all this rubbish?
Always look on the bright side of life!
They’ll never make their money back, you know. I told him.
I said to him, ‘Bernie.’ I said, ‘They’ll never make their money back.’
Always look on the bright side of life!
heh, kia - I think Rich is the keeper of the red pills, I’m still waiting on mine - if I get it i’ll split it with you
my son is in Boulder, my brother in Ft. Collins, sadly my garden and
myself are in NC (sorry zephyr, but I am just a transplant - grew up in
PA - fate is strange)
i have that Life of Brian - guess I need to watch it - probably be better to watch if I had that darn red pill
word….makes me think of a relatively recent skit on SNL. Horatio Sanz
is Carol. The first skit with this character dealt with safe words.
Make mine popcorn.
Skeptical, I don’t know. Obviously something is going on, like you
said, why this mad rush to a one world order. I just don’t see how it
will fly unless the PTB have a new 911 planned for us that will blow
the doors off the first event.
What sway does the Vatican still hold? Is it money? I did mention
the other day that they are probably the very definition, the poster
child for “old money”. I’ve often thought, even mentioned, I don’t
think most of us will ever see money tucked away into 401k’s and the
like. I believe it’s a piggybank for the elites. Whether the Vatican
gets it….I don’t know….seems farfetched. Still, when they settled those
recent lawsuits, some serious cash was being thrown around so obviously
they have the resources.
I still have a hard time reconciling JP II’s actions to a man with
an agenda. I tend to believe what Dr. Jane said in post 361, in light
of how the Vatican might be, what JP II accomplished is incredible,
even miraculous. But maybe that’s why they voted him in. They knew he
was a deeply spiritual man who loved to be with people. While he was
traveling the world, who knows what was going on inside the walls of
the Vatican. When the cats away, the mice will play. Maybe he thought
he could transform things. It’s all speculation.
But if Veith is right, it would seems no one is immune. He quotes
the Dalai Lama twice, protestants, prominent Jews, all sorts of
political leaders, some of which strike me as odd. Nelson Mandela was
in jail for how many years? Yet, he’s on Veith’s list, along with
Mikael Gorbachev, who I thought did much good. Christ, even Bono is
It’s been said Lucifer is an angel of light and a “tricky bastard”
(well, those are my words), so that he would deceive many in the final
days since he was coming as an angel of light. Would be totally scary
if he ended up deceiving even the best and wisest religious and
spiritual leaders. All I know is all this heavy talk has left me
exhausted. Plus, if you read the prophecies, it all ends up ok anyway.
Been fun all….need to rest.
would basically consider myself Libertarian, in essense, or
laizze-faire (sp?). But one day i was talking to a friend (a whiny
“big-brother should be taking care of people” liberal), and i don’t
even remember what we were talking about, but we were expressing
frustration in out Country basically. I was probably saying something
along the lines of “Its all great to give people the right to choose
their society by referendum, but the majority of people i see each day
- i probably wouldn’t want the society these idiots would vote for. . .”
He said something that really struck me. He said, “Kinda makes you think that the best thing would be a benevolent dictator.”
Its funny how the masses will choose today’s security over
tomorrow’s opportunity. Its funny that people will avoid the
challenging to the extent that they will put themselves in a cell to
protect themselves. I think that might be whats meant by, “can’t see
past the end of their nose.” I think that if Jesus taught anything, it
wasn’t to hide from the challenging, the uncomfortable, or the
There’s a concept in sociology that posits that the basic level of a
human is utilitarian, and thats where most people live. It takes
courage to change. The change might prove to be a good choice, but then
again. . . why risk it? Multiply that by a hundred generations and a
few billion people.
I suggest we use “Makia” as our safe word since Pono Huna has moved on.
Word from the ping-pong doubles match is the Jesus is Ambidextrous,
no surprise, he probably needed to develop the capability in order to
throw all the money changers out of the temple with both hands
Now there’s a spiritual jujitsu practice that we could use in dealing with the FED.
Well we have our dictator…now how to make him benevolent. When you
are done with that ping-pong match tell Jesus to get started on that
Zephyr, popcorn works for me.
“Don’t want to walk and talk about Jesus, just want to see his face” - Rolling Stones
bp, Pono Huna,
This is for Darwin’s B-day:
were you aware “sinister” is latin for “left-handed?” Jesus was not
sinister, and i think it would be blasphemous to say that he swings
But i can tell you all this: when Jesus plays doubles, he’s his own
partner! That guy is good! Well, it helps to be able to bi-locate. I
went to tell God that he cheats, but ended up just talking to Jesus
anyway. Damn Holy Trinity! “We’re seperate but the same One” my ass!
Left-handedness is associated with sinister/evil in virtually every
religion, thus the push to make left handers change to right handedness.
I guess it’s no surprise that I am left-handed and blasphemous to
boot, as I sat my parents down when I was five and told them that
nothing about the various Bible stories made any sense to me, and that
I would not be attending church anymore.
I tried to console them by saying that I wouldn’t hold it against
them if they still believed and wanted to attend. Some things never
Burn the Unbeliever!
Sounds like it is hard to find a referee in the Trinity-Oneness thing. Does the Holy Ghost have game?
me, playing against Jesus is like playing against three at once! He
keeps insisting that it’s only one at a time, but who knows what he
means. Is it the “i’m playing with two of me tied behind my back,” or
is it, “it really _is_ only one. . . that are three. . . that are one.
. .” Nonetheless, i’ve really been developing my game and can beat the
Man every once and a while. The great thing is that he’s not a bad
loser at all. I guess being hung out to dry and stabbed in the gut for
the whole city to see engenders some humility.
BTW, no refs are neccesary because no one cheats in Heaven. Its all
on the Honors system. But eternity provides for some VERY long
where’s my paddle?
Does this have anything to do with Blair’s Cash for Honors thing?
Kia - 417 & 418 - how about in British accent “Rocks for Sale”
the winner of the Big Tournament (that’s all they call it, it _is_ 70
years long) gets bragging rights, but no cash, or honor. I mean, to win
you’ve usually gotta best Ghandi, Sidharta, Santa Clause, St. Francis
of Assisi, not to mention Jesus of Nazareth, Rosa Parks, and Freddie
Mercury (he’s got a huge following up there); so there’s no honor in
any of that. And no cash prize, who needs cash when you’ve got BRAGGING
RIGHTS for beating all those losers!
425, kia - yeah I think the real enemy is the talk-radio idiots, heh - anything to up the ratings
The solution to the problems before us is stated by most of the bozos on this bus
We must rise against the temptation of the lowest common
denominator. We must aspire to something other than gratifying only our
baser instincts by feeding ourselves crap in its myridad of forms:
MSM, TV, sqwack radio, fast food,kiddie-porn snuff flicks,
Groupthink, celebrities, polticians, flag burning, gay marriage, the
Why stop eating the crap? Literally for our own self-preservation and sanity.
Some of us pursue out spiritual evolution, engaging in confession to
a priest who is God’s go between for them and they love every moment.
Some of us look for it in the First Light on a Large Wave that
completely occupies the Horizon with anticipation and tempted to be
fearful I love exercising my courage.
We have to become complete contrarians.
The more Booga-booga they sell (dump out your shampoo here ma’am) the more relaxed and focused we must become.
The more drugs the pharma industry wants to jam down your throat and throats of your children the less drugs we should take.
The more the MSM tries to jam your head with a bunch of advertising,
the more we should starve the financiers of your attentions, funds, and
Take back your soul, leave the financiers to con someone else with easy money. Don’t but it.
If I were the Dalai Lama I would be willing to be reincarnated 14
times, if I felt that I could guard all souls against the rapacious
financiers, I’d do it.
Right now, I’m hoping We can do it for Ourselves. It the best way
forward that I have seen to defeat the world’s financiers and get our
Thanks for listening, who want’s the soapbox next?
Right now I’ going to listen to my Brother Zephyr’s fine counsel “Go Play in The Snow”.
Can you sing a few bars for me?;-)
We have to become complete contrarians.
To be sure, balance needs to be re-struck.
The Native American tribes (and other indigineous cultures) had
variations of clowns who “performed” at the most solemn ceremonies.
Funerals, weddings, and the like. While everyone was engaged in the
serious, these ones would dress goofily and do skits/caricatures/etc
during the ceremonies. It was a reminder to the tribe that within the
solemn still exists the absurd and the Contrarian.
Today’s “modern” society wants to put everything in a neat little
box. Can’t be done, really - and it causes more and more stress on the
populous each passing year.
East - The Contrarians
West - The Nurturing Mothers
South - The War Cheifs
North - The Hunters and Workers
Center - The Fire of the Children, where sits the elders and the
children. The children are a constant reminder, the elders have only
one power, the power of veto.
It’s like. . . useful boxes n’at.
434 absolutely, every chance I get I try to explain to people they are
eating, watching and believing CRAP. Some listen some don’t (30 yrs ago
I did a bit too much of it) so with age comes the ability to shut
F#%#& up when people don’t want to hear it.
435 - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.. there is a scene in the Life of Brian and
there is going to be a public stoning and one of the characters is
pushing a cart(similiar to a hot dog stand) full of rocks yelling rocks
for sale, get your rocks, round ones, pointed ones……… that scene is
still in the memory banks from what 28/29 yrs ago.
maybe i should rent it for a refresher.
I recall you mentioning some of the mountains you climbed, is Mount
Robson not the highest peak in the Cdn chain? I kinda remember my kids
playing there when we were a couple of hours out of Jasper on route to
the coast and over to mt. Washington on the island.
just saw some amazing charts that I highly recomend checking out which
makes a strong argument we are putting in a major top like that of 1929
& 1987 which formed a megaphone. I saw it @ financial sense , Major
stock market tops of the past Century , Robert Mchugh
I was also listening to Joe Granvile being intervewed by Ike
Iossive. Joe stated that based on the law of parabolics the dow would
see cant remember exact number but was between 8000 & 7000 within
Volker is right then so is Granville, I’ve even seen some excellent
analysis taking it as low as 6500 in that time frame and shortly
thereafter a gold/dow ratio back to 1:1.
Mt. Logan, which I climbed in the 70’s
When adjusted for gold today’s stock market valuations are VERY close to 1929, pre-crash.
“Bring out your dead! [BONG!]“
bp 416, thanks for that site. It has an excellent summary of another book by Milton: http://www.alternativescience.com/shattering-the-myths-of darwinism-contents.htm Please do read this, it’s absolutely wonderful.
Dammit, got it wrong: http://www.alternativescience.com/shattering-the-myths-of-darwinism-contents.htm
struck me this morning. When the stock market and real estate markets
have their day, the poor and lower middle class won’t be the only ones
Over the summer, a friend of ours brought us to a local financial
seminar. This guy showed people how to pull all the equity out of your
house and “safely” invest it so that it would be the best of all
worlds. Your money wouldn’t be tied up or illiqued in the house, you
could write off a ton of interest on your taxes (especially if you took
an interest only mortgage) and if you invested in a surefire thing
(we’ve all heard this before), which he showed us, you would make back
a ton of money. Now, I know people who have done this. My brother is a
surgeon who has made some good coin over the years, living high on the
hog. Well, he isn’t anymore but he used to, but what he did was exactly
that. He yanked out all the equity out of a near million dollar home
and invested it. He’s always been a little greedy.
My point is this: How many times do you think this scenario has
played out throughout the country? So when real estate goes Boom!, it
isn’t just the poor yucks who will lose everything. I still say it is
the greatest caper in history. The elite will have stolen unbelievable
amounts of moula from almost everyone.
The more I read and see, the more I really do believe we are being
returned to a situation where there is “the upper crust”, a small
amount of truly rich, and the rest of the poor slobs. Doesn’t it play
right into Skeptical’s creepy Mr Veith’s theories. (Sorry, Skeptical,
even if he’s right on most counts, which you’ve won me over on, he’s
still creepy ).
There will be unbelievable carnage. They elite will have even
sacrificed some of their own as we will see many banks go under. And
you think your money is secure? I repeat myself, I know, but all those
401k’s and SEP’s and pensions, will never see the light of day. That’s
how you implement a one world religion and one world govt. When
everyone really has nothing, who will you turn to?
I wish I were wrong but the more I play out the scenarios the more I see this happening. Anyway, talk amongst yourselves
zephyr 421, have you come across Father Malachi Martin? Here is an extract from his book The Keys of This Blood (p 632):
‘Most frighteningly for (Pope) John Paul (II), he had come up
against the irremovable presence of a malign strength in his own
Vatican and in certain bishops’ chanceries. It was what knowledgeable
Churchmen called the ’superforce’. Rumours, always difficult to verify,
tied its installation to the beginning of Pope Paul VI’s reign in 1963.
Indeed Paul had alluded somberly to ‘the smoke of Satan which has
entered the Sanctuary’ … an oblique reference to an enthronement
ceremony by Satanists in the Vatican. Besides, the incidence of Satanic
pedophilia - rites and practice - was already documented among certain
bishops and priests as widely dispersed in Turin, in Italy, and South
Carolina, in the United States. The cultic acts of Satanic pedophilia
are considered by professionals to be the culmination of the Fallen
Jane, this allows everybody’s points to stay on line. So, listen up,
the Vatican can be evil and corrupt in many respects, doesn’t
neccessarily mean the pope is bad. He could still be a very good man.
It’s probably alot like the presidency. When was the last time the
president actually had power and control? In spite of everybody railing
against Bush, we all know the man is a puppet. Business and the
cultural elite call the shots in DC, we all know that.
Why not the Vatican as well? It’s bigger than the pope. And if you
have a pope try to go too far in exposing corruption, you end up like
JP I….dead in a month. So what do you do after such a sudden death?
Bring in a young, energetic man from ANOTHER country. Could that be the
reason someone from Poland was brought in? Someone who wasn’t aware of
the inner workings of the Vatican. And if this new pope hits the road
immediately after his inaugeration….well, do the math.
Maybe that’s why JP II held on so long. He knew what was to come
after his death. I believe he may have tried to prevent it by
installing so many cardinals. He was hoping he knew them all and could
forestall the inevitable.
But as we see, maybe the inevitable remains what it is…inevitable.
kia you might find this interesting, as well as others - http://www.alternet.org/story/47963/
Zephyr, et al, as much as i’d like to see something different, this is exactly what i see too.
The economy of the world right now is imaginary to an unbeleivable
extent. It is completely understandable that it would get out of
control in that regard - we have been conditioned to accept pieces of
paper as a store of value.
Money, we intrinsically beleive, represents something real. Even
though it is only paper (or binary code), we exhange it for real things
that are made of materials of the Earth. There’s very few ways that
people can “enjoy” their money that doesn’t involve a product, or a
service tied to products. A contrary example would be a massage, but to
the average person, spending money involves exchanging something
abstract (”a $20 bill is worth. . .”) for something concrete (a t.v., a
bathroom repair, the cell phone bill).
But the faith people have been taught to have has been exploited. So
the abstract now just mostly turns into more abstract. For instance a
derivative contract. Someone borrows money (the value is abstract and
not tied to anything real; the cash doesn’t have inherent value, and
borrowing it creates ledger entries that are still not tied to anything
“real”) and places a bet (not concrete products involved or created. a
derivative is just another piece of paper with words), and wins the bet
thereby “generating” more money. But THEN someone gets PAID with that
money. They take it home and buy a TV, or a car, or have their house
painted (the paint and tools being the real things).
Over time, there’s more and more and more money not tied to a real
substance or product. Consumer demand and purchasing power is created
far beyond the rate at which real products are/CAN POSSIBLY BE brought
to market. Driving prices up. Fortuneately for the people not producing
anything, they tend to make lots more money than the real production
economy. They don’t notice how their willingness to be part of a system
that creates money for the sake of there being more money to have is
destroying the economic health of the population, starting at the
bottom. Paper Money actually does need to represent something concrete,
somewhere. The farther a society gets away from that truism, the less
and less the paper becomes worth. There’s just too much abundant paper
chasing a finite amount of goods. Furniture, can only be created so
fast. Rooms can only be painted so fast.
It seems that the elite of society know all about this. It is
unbeleivable to me that the true elite are not aware of the inevitable
consequence. But i’m not sure how high one needs to go in the ranks of
the financial institutions and banks and gov’t to find where the
ignorance stops. My guess is that many on the Boards and Committees and
Think Tanks have not connected the obvious points that i made in the
last paragraph. These people beleive what the people ABOVE THEM tell
them. But THOSE people, at the top, whever that is, are not unaware.
So they obviously have a choice. Lets say they want a stable economy
and a healthy population. Well, they would say, “We need cycles so that
efficiency is maximized. Citizens can’t just borrow money, waste it,
and borrow more. There are not enough resources or high enough
production to justify all of that paper money. We need to tell the
banks to watch their lending. We need to tell the people that the gov’t
can’t borrow infinity because it will destroy everyones jobs and
retirement. We’ve got to educate the masses for the stability and
health of everyone.”
Since the opposite of that actually takes place, i’m convinced it is a war.
The elite know that its about concrete things. What they have
figured out how to do is steal ALL of the concrete stuff, with extreme
protection from it being detected. They are interested in the control
of the concrete things, and so they encourage us all to play the game
of the abstract thing (paper money).
I do not know what the game plan is, who all is involved, or what
any of their end intentions are. What does seem obvious is that all of
us have very very very little to show for the hard work that we put in
every day. And that is a trend that goes back to the 50s. I don’t know
how far “they” have to go, or how much we all can lose. But i do think
that they do not want the masses to have access to anything they don’t
control. I don’t think its as much about greed for things as it is
greed for control. And it is easiest to control people who are mainly
concerned with eating and little else. Many people either know they are
there already, or are in denile. MANY MANY people. The whole Mortgage
ATM thing is the writing on the wall that the masses have lost control
of their destiny.
All of this is compounded by the resource crunch. Again i’m not sure
of the plans or end intentions, but nothing looks good in the long run
for 98% of us - especially as long as they insist on clinging to the
stupid game of consuming without producing. Especially as long as
people cling to the stupid idea that someone who doesn’t know you or
your family or your town and lives hundreds and thousands of miles away
is going to do what is in _your_ best interest.
There is hope for health, for balance, for human development - but
only for the people who don’t define those things by money or
This is likely going to be a long road, all. None of this is going
to be fixed. But we need to focus on how it changes for the better.
That isn’t going to happen through clinging to what we are used to -
especially complcency, decadence, and dependence on beuracracies.
physical no matter what form, needs to be tied to something concrete.
Pono Huna, well said. Indeed!
(that last sentence is a typo. . .)
This is what is now being done by We the People Foundation to save our form of government: http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2007-02-12.htm
They recently added this and another petition, regarding immigration,
for redress of grievances as provided for by the First Amendment.
For anyone not familiar with this group, they are staunch defender
of our Constitution. They filed the first four petitions with the
government several years ago, but they were not adequately addressed
and are now working their way through the court system.
Everyone here would probably support all six petitions which are:
The Petition for Redress Regarding the FEDERAL INCOME TAX, The Petition
for Redress Regarding the FEDERAL RESERVE, The Petition for Redress
Regarding the WAR POWERS CLAUSES, The Petition for Redress Regarding
the “USA PATRIOT ACT”, The Petition for Redress Regarding IMMIGRATION,
The Petition for Redress Regarding the NORTH AMERICIAN UNION.
I urge you to check out the above link and especially the link included therein describing the North American Union.
Bob Schulz, the founder and leader of We the People, is very well
versed on our Constitution and he mentions the Magna Carta several
times so maybe common law is not totally dead after all. In fact, his
primary objective is to determine whether or nor our Constitution is
dead, via these petitions for redress.
454, well in that case I take away the “indeed” part. Still well said, though.
“Power is the Ultimate Aphrodisiac” - Henry Kissinger
tell ya another thing that truly disturbs me….most of the people in the
country are still in full-out patriotic mode. I listen to WFAN radio
coming out of NY. It’s primarily sports but they also carry Imus in the
Morning. Anyway the topic came up regarding a baseball player who had
been ignoring the playing of America the Beautiful in NY during the 7th
inning stretch. Well, all the calls coming in berate the guy with talk
of “such disrespect in time of war” and “I would never turn my back on
Nearly everybody says that’s why this country is great, that you
have the right to do something like that, BUT HOW DARE YOU DO SOMETHING
LIKE THAT!!! Even the radio host shows no balls by agreeing verbatum
with every caller. For what it’s worth I tried calling in but kept
getting a busy signal.
So, the public is still buying this whole thing hook, line and
sinker. Funny thing is that most of the people are against the war now,
but you still better not protest it. So, indeed we are in for the long
hall as the PTB continue to fleece the people. Maybe the people will
never wake up. They’ll fold right into whatever the govt tells them,
even if it be this one world thing.
think that the word is “castrated” or “impotent” zephyr. Somebody in
here made a comment in the last day or so about the “opiate” of the
masses. Its pretty hard to argue that the main stream society isn’t a
bunch of addicts, hopelessly catering to the dealer.
One should only think of the Opium Wars of China to see how it goes
down. I can’t stress enough how much of a parallel i see there.
Speaking of which, i recommended “Fearless,” Jet Li’s newest (and
last) movie. Y’all should check it out. It speaks to where an entire
society can become addicts like this, the results, and the solution.
bp (#450) provided us with a fine link: http://www.alternet.org/story/47963/
In his book Collapse, Jared Diamond puts forth five factors that
have led to collapse — human environmental impacts, climate change, the
behavior of your enemies, the behavior of your friends and how you
respond. Societies that survive practice long-term thinking and are
willing and flexible enough to change their values when they no longer
Let’s briefly look at each one:
1) At the dawn of oil (1850s) we had 1 billion people, currently we
have over 6 billion, by 2050 the population is projected to be 9
billion. It doesn’t take much to see a pattern of increasing human
impact. However once the oil is gone, humans are going to start feeling
of the impact of resource scarcity. Be it oil, water, energy etc.
2) Climate Change, regardless of the cause is on the march, most
remarkably when Al Gore first was giving his slideshow the North Sea
ice cap was in excess of 10 feet thick. Recent data show it has shrunk
to 3 feet, with projection of open ocean by 2050. The albedo of snow is
near .98 (98% of the solar energy is reflected) the open ocean’s albedo
is in the range of 0.01-0.2. One the cap melts a HUGE non-linear switch
in the Earth’s energy budget will be thrown. Most recently the largest
portion of this ice cap has broken in half mystifying the scientists
3) Our foreign policy in the Middle East and throughout the world is
based on extracting resources for the benefit of our multinational
corporations mostly to the detriment of the citizens of those
countries. The rise of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, Rafael Correa in
Ecuador and Evo Morales in Bolivia suggest that the world may be tiring
of our “business as usual”. This is also evidenced in countries around
the world paying off their IMF debts to get out the door of the US’s
“company store” debt slavery.
4) Our “friends” in the Axis of Agression the UK and Israel are the
only ones foolish enough to support our unilateral attempt to impress
our “democracy” which is a really a functioning “corporacracy” on the
rest in the world in the dream of Pipelinestan and the rise of the
5) Our response, 30+ years after the Energy Crisis, the Vietnam War,
and Watergate, has been to continue on in blissful ignorance of the
non-sustainability of our approach.
Given the state of those five key criterion, the question is will we
be able to practice long-term thinking and become flexible enough to
change our values?
My prediction is that the American’s will exhaust EVERY other
direction, before taking the right path, given our prediliction toward,
waste, abuse of the majority for the benefit of the minority, ability
to ignore the well-being rest of planet’s inhabitants (human and
non-human) for our own comfort/convenience and greed.
The fact is that fear is more powerful than greed. So I suggest
planning for insecurity caused by the non-linear interaction of these
coming convergence of the wave fronts mentioned above, which are a
direct result of the “American” way of life.
Surf’s Up Kids, Grab Your Boards.
Fixer upper that maybe needs some work, but might be worth it.
Add a few windows, a couple of doors, and, voila, a new look.
Move away some of the stones, it will maybe have some potential.
You crack me up, ‘Skinner. You’re like the Steven Wright of the board.
I’ve always wondered why Britain stuck so close to our side. I
understand Israel but Britain eluded me. Now I realize the answer is so
obvious. They were the superpower before the US. They’ve never lost
that thirst for power, which they had for so long. It’s like Malcolm
McDowell in Star Trek: Generations…he needed to get back to his nexus.
As Kia said, or Kissinger (evil Prick! Oops, did I think that or did I
type it….D’Oh! ), power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. I suppose so.
For All you interested in the Science/Religion discussion, here’s Carl Sagan from beyond the grave:
Near the end of his book, Dr. Sagan parses the difference between
belief and science this way: “I think if we ever reach the point where
we think we thoroughly understand who we are and where we came from, we
will have failed.”
The search for who we are does not lead to complacency or arrogance,
he explains. “It goes with a courageous intent to greet the universe as
it really is, not to foist our emotional predispositions on it but to
courageously accept what our explorations tell us.”
Dr. Sagan was many things, but shrill was not one of them.
The last word may as well go to Dr. Dawkins himself, who in a 1996
book nominated Dr. Sagan as the ideal spokesman for Earth. In a blurb
for the new book, Dr. Dawkins said that the astronomer was more than
religious, having left behind the priests and mullahs.
“He left them behind, because he had so much more to be religious
about,” Dr. Dawkins wrote. “They have their Bronze Age myths, medieval
superstitions and childish wishful thinking. He had the universe.”
you’re not familiar with the works of Steven Wright, he’s the famous
erudite scientist who once said: “I woke up one morning and all of my
stuff had been stolen… and replaced by exact duplicates!” His mind
tends to see things a bit differently from the rest of us mortals. Here
are some of his gems:
1- I’d kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.
2- Borrow money from pessimists - they don’t expect it back.
3- Half the people you know are below average.
4- 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
5- 42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
6- A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good.
7- A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.
8- If you want the rainbow, you gotta put up with the rain.
9- All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand.
10- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
11- I almost had a psychic girlfriend, but she left me before we met.
12- OK, so what’s the speed of dark?
13- How do you tell when you’re out of invisible ink?
14- If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.
15- Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.
16- When everything is coming your way, you’re in the wrong lane.
17- Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
18- Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now.
19- I intend to live forever; so far, so good.
20- If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
21- Eagles may soar, but weasels don’t get sucked into jet engines.
22- What happens if you get scared half to death twice?
23- My mechanic told me, “I couldn’t repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder.”
24- Why do psychics have to ask you for your name?
25- If at first you don’t succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
26- A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.
27- Experience is something you don’t get until just after you need it.
28- The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread.
29- To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research.
30- The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.
31- The sooner you fall behind, the more time you’ll have to catch up.
32- The colder the x-ray table, the more of your body is required to be on it.
33- Everyone has a photographic memory; some just don’t have film.
34- If your car could travel at the speed of light, would your headlights work?
Peace and Laughter
Gems indeed, thanks!
Cooling World - Newsweek, April 28, 1975 “There are ominious signs that
the earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically, and
that these changes may protend a drastic decline in food
production-with serious …” http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/pdf/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf
I thought that somewhere in my memory banks lurked something about
this. I guess this speaks volumes about long range forecasts.
et al, fear is all of our biggest enemy - its not a stretch to say
thats whats got us in the mess and confusion to begin with.
this is a major part of the spiritual renewal that needs addressed
no matter what _appears_ to be threatening, the power of human
consiousness can move mountains - fear will make that mountain fall
right on you
Pono, right on. See this piece about pressure/fear being put on scientists who question the conventional wisdom. http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm
An excerpt, “No doubt passive acceptance yields less stress, fewer
personal attacks and makes career progress easier. What I have
experienced in my personal life during the last years makes me
understand why most people choose not to speak out; job security and
fear of reprisals. Even in University, where free speech and challenge
to prevailing wisdoms are supposedly encouraged, academics remain
Another good example is the HIV causes AIDS theory. Did Robert Gallo
publish a paper that proved HIV caused AIDS before his 1984
announcement? The last time I checked, no one had collected the $10,000
reward offered to anyone who could produce said paper; however, we know
what happens to anyone who questions that conventional wisdom.
conventional wisdom is an oxymoron and does not exist
speak your truth
Without fear man could not survive. Mans mind is so constituted he
can not keep all his knowledge in his focal awareness. Yet in order to
survive he must some means of trigering instantaneous appraisals from
his subconscious in response to his perceptions of the situations he
encounters.If for example , while crossing a street, a pedestrian
percieves a truck careening @ breakneck speed in his direction, rather
then carrying out a conscious thought process, his subconscious
instantaneously assesses the gravity of the situation & he responds
automatically by lunging to safety. Prviding the conscious mind with
lightning like appraisals, while bypassing any, lengthy thought
process, is the function of emotions.
Emotions are automatized value-responses issuing from the
subcoscious which , within the context of an individual knowledge is
“for him” or “against him” The motivational function of emotions is
evidanced by the fact every emotion has a kinestic element , or
component, experienced as an impetus to engage in some action related
to the particular emotion involved. Love for example, is an emotional
response to that which one values most highly;it prompts one to act to
achieve contact or to gain possession of that value. Fear, on the other
hand , is an emotional response to that which threatens ones values,
& prompts one to avoid that which arouses the fear.
I appriciate fear i.e., since I value life so I do not speed on icy roads out of fear.
Theoretical knowledge is not the exclusive domain of ivory tower
intellects, but is in fact, a crucial necessity of mans proper
survival. Every bit of your mental contents is derived from some
theory, & your succes & happiness hinge on weather true or
false, good or evil.
Fear properly placed is indeed a good and necessary emotion. Using fear
to increase the power of government and rape the people is not a good
use of fear. i.e. Promoting global cooling in the mid 70’s and using
fear to quite rational, never mind correct, descent, or using fear to
suppress alternatives to modern medicine.
I know some otherwise rational people who, since 9/11, have bowed
down and worshiped big government while their freedoms have been
stripped away and thousands killed in their name. I also know some
otherwise good people who think it is okay for the government to
destroy other countries for whatever bogus reason they care to put
forth and then accept, “mistakes were made”, as justification. Will
they someday soon accept martial law or a dictatorship as necessary for
our “protection” from some created or imagined fear?
Roosevelt was wrong; fear was not the only thing the people at that
time had to fear. They would have been better served to fear him, or
rather his policies.
Kia, Yeah, I forgot the quotes.
Bush is speaking on national TV. Anyone want to start a pool where we
all try to pick the start date for an attack on Iran? I’ll go first, I
pick March 21st of this year. Anybody else think we’re watching WW III
unfold. Anybody ever think it would have been the US that started it?
started when they went into Iraq they just don’t know it. I pray they
don’t go into Iran but if I’m guessing man they will prey Mar 31st.
Looking at this:
I think they might get blue balls waiting to unload the NeoCon gift of destruction and mayhem.
How it really is over in Iraq:
checkpoints are useless,” said Ahmed Aboud, 45. “You can bribe them
with 5,000 Iraqi dinars and bring in all the explosives you want.”
No word on whether the explosives dealers have gone into business with the checkpoint operators…
SUPPORT OUR “OOPs”
Soldiers Back From War Fight Different Battle
POSTED: 4:20 pm EST February 13, 2007
UPDATED: 5:54 pm EST February 13, 2007
PITTSBURGH — Soldiers who were paralyzed, suffered brain damage and lost limbs owe the government enlistment bonus money.
They must pay the money back because they didn’t fulfill their tour of duty.
Bob Truska, who was in the Navy, got an honorable discharge for what the Navy calls a personality disorder.
One year later, he got a bill for more than $3,000, part of his $7,000 enlistment bonus.
Bob said, “I didn’t know of anything I had to pay back after I got out of the military.”
The Navy said his honorable discharge “does not exempt him from
recoupement of the unearned enlistment bonus, and his personality
disorder is not a disability but could interfere with assignment or
performance of duty.”
According to the Defense Finance and Accounting Service, each month
from October 2005 through October of 2006, at least 600 members of the
military and as many as 1,100 have owed bonus debts totaling anywhere
from $2.5 million dollars each month to $4 million.
The money comes from skyrocketing enlistment and re-enlistment
bonuses being offered to lure recruits and keep experienced troops in
Just this past year, the Army doubled its top bonus from $20,000 to $40,000.
zephyr - I pick March 19th - that’s the new moon, or April 2nd a full
moon - which will they need to do bombing runs - the 2nd would be
ironic as it is Passover
I think April Fool’s Day might be the most propicious date for such a fool’s errand
- 478 As I read somewhere recently, it is a good thing the French
showed us how to use the guillotine, all we need do is remove the rust
and apply grease. I’m sure there will be plenty of volunteers to do the
drop. Government stupidity never ceases to amaze me.
Ostrich - 475 Agreed. Now, does the FED cause revolution in Russia
by inflating too slowly or in China by inflating too fast. Not good
choices. Time will tell.
Zephyr – 474 I’m going out on a limb here, but I don’t think we will
“attack” Iran. We will “respond” to an attack on our fleet in “our
section” in the Persian Gulf.
and Rupert Murdock will put in on PPV on FOX,
“EXECUTION the ultimate reality show thrill”
Bread and Circus Anyone?
481 - got back from the neighbours too much red wine and shoveled 36″
of snow today in 60kph winds but as sick as your post makes me you are
probably right. Maybe they can connect the powerball lottery to it (now
but Mikeck44, I still need a date for entry into the pool. No matter
how it starts, it’s still the US that starts. Tricky one, you are!
#472, i agree with everything you say here. But i suppose that this is
a case where “fear” and “danger” need to be properly vetted out. To
wit, the expression/truism, “He who trades his freedom for security
will have neither.” Do you believe it? Do we beleive it as a society? I
can’t make a case whatsoever that our society beleives that. The fear
here is so out of balance so as to point in the direction of
self-destruction. I would argue that the biggest fear is that people
are afraid to be wrong, they have too much invested in the modern ways.
One self-doubt might lead to another, and then who knows? Of course i
know that death of the ego is much harder on the front end than the
back, but tell that to someone who’s about to parachute for the first
time. “You will be safe, most likely, i promise.”
In today’s world, people need to jump out of a burning plane. I know
they didn’t expect or want to be here, but i promise, the parachutes
work so you either take your chances facing fear or you die.
Most likely, you’re much better off out there than here - and if you stay here you’re definately not gonna make it.
mikeck44 #473, i wrote #485 before reading your post. Sorry for being redundant and well said.
Huna (Don’t change your name again….aargh!….I keep wanting to call you
Makia…maybe I’ll change my name to Hurricane or Typhoon since I’m not
always the calm wind my name implies
Actually, yeah that’s a good idea since my moods are so mercurial.
It’ll give everybody a little notice which way my winds are blowing. If
I’m in-between I’ll be tropical storm), where was I headed? Oh yeah.
Have YOU ever parachuted? I haven’t but I would. The closest I came
was hang-gliding in Rio De Janeiro…dream trip….the women are
gorgeous…and for you ladies, the men are damn good looking, too. But, I
I don’t fear death because I believe in the afterlife. And everybody
dies eventually so why fear it? The ONLY reason I fear death is because
I wouldn’t want to leave my wife alone to mourn, we have a very, very
close bond. What’s that old Winnie the Pooh saying? I wish to live to
100 and I wish you my friend to live to 100 minus one day. Something
Gee I never noticed that about you
I don’t fear death, I just don’t want much notice.
Jumping off a perfectly built bridge can be a marvelous way of confronting one’s fear.
Kia, you talking about bungee jumping? I might give that a go if the opportunity ever presented itself. Why, have you done it?
this is the middle ground between darren and my points. Fact is, i
wouldn’t jump out of a plane, or off a bridge unless i did have to.
There’s enough fears in life (like being rejected or disliked or having
regrets at the end) to face without creating more artificially. If
there’s a 1/10000 change that the rope is too long or the parachute is
broke, that’s too big a chance to take for pure fun. I already drive
our nation’s highways daily, why push luck?
but i didn’t always feel that way, just after i decided to have a family - before that i was misguided
This may be a good case of “to each his own,” but i like my POV.
Yes sir I am. Whether you bungee jump or sky dive (I have done both).
It is very valuable because first it gives you and opportunity to
confront yourself as a fearful human being, and second it give you an
opportunity to consciously over-ride it. Over riding it gives you the
opportunity to dispel your fear, and thus the power it has over you.
If you BASE jump, be sure to do it twice, and notice the difference.
The resistance you encounter the first time will be dispelled the
second time. This is a tool that we can take into all the deep dark
spots in our skull to dispel fears that we hold about all kind of
topics, thus making us Fearless. Something that I wish for all beings.
Also you get this feeling of lighting up EVERY cell in your body. I
guarantee that if you do pursue it, that you will walk around in
extremely heightened level of awareness for the rest of your day.
Let me know if you choose to do it, it would be interesting to here of your experience.
Peace and Fearlessness to You.
I fear your daily commute more that I fear skydiving;-)
of our nation’s highways, I’ve driven a good portion of the country and
by far I believe the craziest drivers in the country are in south
Florida. There’s no rhyme or reason to some of the things they do. Add
to that the fact you have, on the same highway, 80 or 90 somethings
driving 40mph while crazy coked up youngins drive a minimum of 90mph.
And everything in between. Try negotiating that. Can’t sit in any lane
and feel safe. My brother-in-law lives down there and says there’s a
massive pile-up nearly every day.
#492 right on. I have a fear of heights so you know what I did to
overcome it? I learned how to Paraglide and have done that sport for 6
years now. No paragliding is not being pulled behind a boat
(parasailing) but is similar to hang gliding. The difference is the
wing we use is does not have a stiff frame.
Carry on with your banter. Hopefully Michael will start a new thread soon. THis one is getting awfully long
I have been climbing, surfing, and meditating for over 35 years.
Each activity is one that quiets the mind in order to guide the body
into the “flow” of the universe.
If I were to wish one skill for everyone, it would be this one, as I
see it as the medicine necessary in the face of over-info loading.
Hey, we’ve got to get it to 500 first.
Darren/Pono, Sorry for stepping on your toes. I missed the fact that Darren’s comment was addressed to you Pono.
Kia, Have you ever gone off of the New River Gorge Bridge? I have
not, but have talked to some who have and they get hooked. It is about
875 feet to the river bed. They even devote a day to jumping and
rappelling called, Bridge Day. http://www.wvbridgeday.com/
Funny that you should ask, short answer is No.
But I was listening the the NPR feed last fall and heard an interview
with one of the sponsors, mentioning that the first BASE jumper off El
Capitan in Yosemite (my home rocks) was attending. I had met the man
when I was ten, and it was my encounter with him that pointed me in the
direction of a life long alpinist.
Later that week I heard that he had perished at the event, having
not thrown his opening chute early enough. Apparently he hadn’t trained
for 30 years. So much for the “glory days” approach.
Me, I’ a B.B. King man:
“You’re only as good as the last time you played” - B.B. King.
Happy #500 to whoever claims it.
Can’t link to this, so here it is:
Russia’s Great-Power Strategy
By George Friedman Most
speeches at diplomatic gatherings aren’t worth the time it takes to
listen to them. On rare occasion, a speech is delivered that needs to
be listened to carefully. Russian President Vladimir Putin gave such a
speech over the weekend in Munich, at a meeting on international
security. The speech did not break new ground; it repeated things that
the Russians have been saying for quite a while. But the venue in which
it was given and the confidence with which it was asserted signify a
new point in Russian history. The Cold War has not returned, but Russia
is now officially asserting itself as a great power, and behaving
At Munich, Putin launched a systematic attack on the role the United
States is playing in the world. He said: “One state, the United States,
has overstepped its national borders in every way … This is nourishing
an arms race with the desire of countries to get nuclear weapons.” In
other words, the United States has gone beyond its legitimate reach and
is therefore responsible for attempts by other countries — an obvious
reference to Iran — to acquire nuclear weapons.
Russia for some time has been in confrontation with the United
States over U.S. actions in the former Soviet Union (FSU). What the
Russians perceive as an American attempt to create a pro-U.S. regime in
Ukraine triggered the confrontation. But now, the issue goes beyond
U.S. actions in the FSU. The Russians are arguing that the unipolar
world — meaning that the United States is the only global power and is
surrounded by lesser, regional powers — is itself unacceptable. In
other words, the United States sees itself as the solution when it is,
actually, the problem.
In his speech, Putin reached out to European states — particularly
Germany, pointing out that it has close, but blunt, relations with
Russia. The Central Europeans showed themselves to be extremely wary
about Putin’s speech, recognizing it for what it was — a new level of
assertiveness from an historical enemy. Some German leaders appeared
more understanding, however: Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier
made no mention of Putin’s speech in his own presentation to the
conference, while Ruprecht Polenz, chairman of the Bundestag Foreign
Affairs Committee, praised Putin’s stance on Iran. He also noted that
the U.S. plans to deploy an anti-missile shield in Poland and the Czech
Republic was cause for concern — and not only to Russia.
Putin now clearly wants to escalate the confrontations with the
United States and likely wants to build a coalition to limit American
power. The gross imbalance of global power in the current system makes
such coalition-building inevitable — and it makes sense that the
Russians should be taking the lead. The Europeans are risk-averse, and
the Chinese do not have much at risk in their dealings with the United
States at the moment. The Russians, however, have everything at risk.
The United States is intruding in the FSU, and an ideological success
for the Americans in Ukraine would leave the Russians permanently on
The Russians need allies but are not likely to find them among other
great-power states. Fortunately for Moscow, the U.S. obsession with
Iraq creates alternative opportunities. First, the focus on Iraq
prevents the Americans from countering Russia elsewhere. Second, it
gives the Russians serious leverage against the United States — for
example, by shipping weapons to key players in the region. Finally,
there are Middle Eastern states that seek great-power patronage. It is
therefore no accident that Putin’s next stop, following the Munich
conference, was in Saudi Arabia. Having stabilized the situation in the
former Soviet region, the Russians now are constructing their follow-on
strategy, and that concerns the Middle East.
The Russian Interests
The Middle East is the pressure point to which the United States is
most sensitive. Its military commitment in Iraq, the confrontation with
Iran, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and oil in the Arabian Peninsula
create a situation such that pain in the region affects the United
States intensely. Therefore, it makes sense for the Russians to use all
available means of pressure in the Middle East in efforts to control
U.S. behavior elsewhere, particularly in the former Soviet Union.
Like the Americans, the Russians also have direct interests in the
Middle East. Energy is a primary one: Russia is not only a major
exporter of energy supplies, it is currently the world’s top oil
producer. The Russians have a need to maintain robust energy prices,
and working with the Iranians and Saudis in some way to achieve this is
directly in line with Moscow’s interest. To be more specific, the
Russians do not want the Saudis increasing oil production.
There are strategic interests in the Middle East as well. For
example, the Russians are still bogged down in Chechnya. It is Moscow’s
belief that if Chechnya were to secede from the Russian Federation, a
precedent would be set that could lead to the dissolution of the
Federation. Moscow will not allow this. The Russians consistently have
claimed that the Chechen rebellion has been funded by “Wahhabis,” by
which they mean Saudis. Reaching an accommodation with the Saudis,
therefore, would have not only economic, but also strategic,
implications for the Russians.
On a broader level, the Russians retain important interests in the
Caucasus and in Central Asia. In both cases, their needs intersect with
forces originating in the Muslim world and trace, to some extent, back
to the Middle East. If the Russian strategy is to reassert a sphere of
influence in the former Soviet region, it follows that these regions
must be secured. That, in turn, inevitably involves the Russians in the
Therefore, even if Russia is not in a position to pursue some of the
strategic goals that date back to the Soviet era and before — such as
control of the Bosporus and projection of naval power into the
Mediterranean — it nevertheless has a basic, ongoing interest in the
region. Russia has a need both to limit American power and to achieve
direct goals of its own. So it makes perfect sense for Putin to leave
Munich and embark on a tour of Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf
But the Russians also have a problem. The strategic interests of
Middle Eastern states diverge, to say the least. The two main Islamic
powers between the Levant and the Hindu Kush are Saudi Arabia and Iran.
The Russians have things they want from each, but the Saudis and
Iranians have dramatically different interests. Saudi Arabia — an Arab
and primarily Sunni kingdom — is rich but militarily weak. The
government’s reliance on outside help for national defense generates
intense opposition within the kingdom. Desert Storm, which established
a basing arrangement for Western troops within Saudi Arabia, was one of
the driving forces behind the creation of al Qaeda. Iran — a
predominantly Persian and Shiite power — is not nearly as rich as Saudi
Arabia but militarily much more powerful. Iran seeks to become the
dominant power in the Persian Gulf — out of both its need to defend
itself against aggression, and for controlling and exploiting the oil
wealth of the region.
Putting the split between Sunni and Shiite aside for the moment,
there is tremendous geopolitical asymmetry between Saudi Arabia and
Iran. Saudi Arabia wants to limit Iranian power, while keeping its own
dependence on foreign powers at a minimum. That means that, though
keeping energy prices high might make financial sense for the kingdom,
the fact that high energy prices also strengthen the Iranians actually
can be a more important consideration, depending on circumstances.
There is some evidence that recent declines in oil prices are linked to
decisions in Riyadh that are aimed at increasing production, reducing
prices and hurting the Iranians.
This creates a problem for Russia. While Moscow has substantial room
for maneuver, the fact is that lowered oil prices impact energy prices
overall, and therefore hurt the Russians. The Saudis, moreover, need
the Iranians blocked — but without going so far as to permit foreign
troops to be based in Saudi Arabia itself. In other words, they want to
see the United States remain in Iraq, since the Americans serve as the
perfect shield against the Iranians so long as they remain there.
Putin’s criticisms of the United States, as delivered in Munich, would
have been applauded by Saudi Arabia prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
But in 2007, the results of that invasion are exactly what the Saudis
feared — a collapsed Iraq and a relatively powerful Iran. The Saudis
now need the Americans to stay put in the region.
The interests of Russia and Iran align more closely, but there are
points of divergence there as well. Both benefit from having the United
States tied up, militarily and politically, in wars, but Tehran would
be delighted to see a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq that leaves a power
vacuum for Iran to fill. The Russians would rather not see this
outcome. First, they are quite happy to have the United States bogged
down in Iraq and would prefer that to having the U.S. military freed
for operations elsewhere. Second, they are interested in a relationship
with Iran but are not eager to drive the United States and Saudi Arabia
into closer relations. Third, the Russians do not want to see Iran
become the dominant power in the region. They want to use Iran, but
within certain manageable limits.
Russia has been supplying Iran with weapons. Of particular
significance is the supply of surface-to-air missiles that would raise
the cost of U.S. air operations against Iran. It is not clear whether
the advanced S300PMU surface-to-air missile has yet been delivered,
although there has been some discussion of this lately. If it were
delivered, this would present significant challenges for U.S. air
operation over Iran. The Russians would find this particularly
advantageous, as the Iranians would absorb U.S. attentions and, as in
Vietnam, the Russians would benefit from extended, fruitless
commitments of U.S. military forces in regions not vital to Russia.
Meanwhile, there are energy matters: The Russians, as we have said,
are interested in working with Iran to manage world oil prices. But at
the same time, they would not be averse to a U.S. attack that takes
Iran’s oil off the market, spikes prices and enriches Russia.
Finally, it must be remembered that behind this complex relationship
with Iran, there historically has been animosity and rivalry between
the two countries. The Caucasus has been their battleground. For the
moment, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, there is a buffer there,
but it is a buffer in which Russians and Iranians are already dueling.
So long as both states are relatively weak, the buffer will maintain
itself. But as they get stronger, the Caucasus will become a
battleground again. When Russian and Iranian territories border each
other, the two powers are rarely at peace. Indeed, Iran frequently
needs outside help to contain the Russians.
A Complicated Strategy
In sum, the Russian position in the Middle East is at least as
complex as the American one. Or perhaps even more so, since the
Americans can leave and the Russians always will live on the doorstep
of the Middle East. Historically, once the Russians start fishing in
Middle Eastern waters, they find themselves in a greater trap than the
Americans. The opening moves are easy. The duel between Saudi Arabia
and Iran seems manageable. But as time goes on, Putin’s Soviet
predecessors learned, the Middle East is a graveyard of ambitions — and
not just American ambitions.
Russia wants to contain U.S. power, and manipulating the situation
in the Middle East certainly will cause the Americans substantial pain.
But whatever short-term advantages the Russians may be able to find and
exploit in the region, there is an order of complexity in Putin’s
maneuver that might transcend any advantage they gain from boxing the
In returning to “great power” status, Russia is using an obvious opening gambit. But being obvious does not make it optimal.
you Kia! I had so coveted spot number 500. Oh, the agony…. As far as
Russia goes, 3 cheers for Putin’s speech. A very enlightening article.
And I guess I had better bump up that trip to Moscow before it becomes
undoable. At least if I don’t want to be interegated and stip searched
upon returning home from a visit to Russia. Oh, the choices.
Sorry Brother Zeph,
What can I say I lack self control
Chinese soothsayers: Year of Pig signals conflicts before new world order
The world can expect a roller-coaster ride of conflict and unrest,
natural disasters and a plunge in global stock markets once the Year of
the Pig begins, Chinese soothsayers say.
As the world farewells the Year of the Dog on Sunday, believers in
Chinese superstitions have been busy consulting fortune tellers, feng
shui geomancers and a wealth of new books for the year’s fortunes.
Chinese fortunes are based on a belief that events are dictated by
the different balances in the elements that make up the earth — gold,
wood, water, fire and earth.
Feng shui expert Raymond Lo said that according to ancient Chinese
belief, the Year of the Pig is symbolised by two elements — fire
sitting on top of water.
“Fire sitting on water is a symbol of conflict and skirmish, and
this may bring a relatively less peaceful year with more international
conflicts and struggles,” he said.
Lo said the last time such an arrangement appeared was in 2002, the year that followed the September 11 terrorist attacks.
“It is anticipated that there will be more international conflicts
and disharmony, which will even lead to regional warfare, uprising and
unrest, or the overthrow of governments in certain countries,” he said.
The elemental arrangement for 2007, with fire standing on top, could
represent openness, optimism and warmth, but it can also bring fire
disasters and huge explosions, Lo said.
The Chinese calendar moves in 60-year cycles, meaning the world will
experience in the new year events similar to those that took place in
In that turbulent year, the Cold War began in earnest when then US
president Truman declared his anti-communist doctrine and the Soviet
Union rejected a US plan for atomic weapons control, sparking the
nuclear arms race.
That year saw the same elemental arrangement with yin fire dominant in the Year of the Pig.
“So it will not be surprising that there will be more gun battles,
murder with guns, bombing attacks in the year 2007,” Lo added.
– World faces unrest and disharmony but all ends well –
The lunar calendar is based on the cycles of the moon and associates
each of the 12 years forming a partial cycle with an animal. The pig is
the last in the zodiac sequence that begins with the rat, followed by
the ox, tiger, rabbit, dragon, snake, horse, goat, monkey, rooster and
Fortune-tellers base their predictions on the relationship between
the zodiac animals and the characteristics of each animal year.
They also take into account the changing balance over the years in
the five spiritual elements that Chinese philosophy believes form the
core of the universe — gold, wood, water, fire and earth.
Feng shui expert Lee Sing-tong predicts serious conflict in the Middle East this coming year.
“Religious wars will turn intense. There will be large-scale warfare
or explosions,” said Lee, a third-generation feng shui master.
He also expects serious diplomatic conflicts in the East, for
instance between China and Japan, and says the problem will be most
acute until May 5.
Fortune teller Alion Yeo, who predicted nuclear testing in North
Korea last year, said there is a chance that the power of Pyongyang’s
leader, Kim Jong-il, will weaken.
“This will most likely happen between June and July. I can see their
leader is in bad luck during the period. This means something will be
changed: someone might replace him or he might fall ill,” Yeo said.
“There might be a chance that he would leave his position or hand over his duty to someone else,” he added.
The Year of the Pig will largely be a smooth one for the United
States, although Yeo predicts an interest rate hike in the third
quarter and a big accident between June and July.
“It could be a big fire or an explosion. It would be something that
draws the world’s attention and causes the stock market to fall,” he
said, adding however that the market would quickly recover.
Yeo also predicts a strong earthquake, at least 7.0 on the Richter
scale, in a Japanese city between March and April. But the number of
wounded would be limited by the earthquake resistance of the country’s
Although Yeo anticipates global unrest, he expects a mediator will
come in to balance the tense situation between conflicting countries.
“I don’t think it will be that bad this year. Although there will be
a lot of unrest and disharmony, problems will be solved in the end,” he
Lo agreed. The pig belongs to the water element and is the birth
month of wood. The pig symbolises the germination of plants and when
new life is born.
“The pig year can bring a new beginning of international
relationships and social orders, this could bring new regimes with new
governments in some countries,” he said.
And Lee predicts the birth of someone of national importance to China.
He said this person will be born on June 30 between 5.00-6.59 am
Hong Kong time (21.00-22.59 GMT) somewhere in the east or south of the
“This date of birth is very rare. It only happens once every 60 years. It is very difficult to see such a good fate,” he said.
Lee said he did not publish this prediction in his latest feng shui
book for fear of inciting mothers to plan their pregnancies to occur at
“I don’t want to ruin the natural order. I don’t want someone
planning their pregnancy artificially. Heaven might not allow it,” he
“But this child would be a prodigy, very intelligent and talented.
This person would have the quality to become China’s leader or a prime
minister,” he added.
heh, thanks kia, how do you find time to read all this!