Bull! Not bull.
THINK!
    About | Home | Blog | Gallery | Archive | Bibliography | Trading | Elliott Wave | Commodity Charts | Subscribe/Contact | Search Site

Vote Gridlock 2006

Posted on October 5, 2006
Filed Under Uncategorized |

gridlock

Considering the circumstances, gridlock doesn’t sound so bad. Kissinger is Back.

What happened the last time we had Kissinger, Rumsfeld and Cheney in the same Whitehouse?
Do politics provide any hope whatsoever?

Comments

Comments are closed. Thank you.

Comments

114 Comments so far
  1. zephyr October 6, 2006 4:51 am

    In truth, everyone sees the world through their own lense….you know, perception is reality. And many people, when they vote, vote on one hotbutton issue that is very near and dear to their hearts. Then they blindly believe that the “wise” politicians (who must know more than me) will sort out the rest. Then they run and hide.

    Face it, in this primarily me culture, unless you piss someone off where they can personally feel it, they can care less about the other issues.

    Again, I work in tv and used to work in news. When showing video, our guide was this on dead bodies and what to show: American-body must be covered, feet showing at most. Anybody else, didn’t matter…..you could actually show piles of bodies….didn’t matter.

    Still reflects that today…..TWO US SOLDIERS DIE, 47 Iraqi civilians die….and so it goes. Unless, it’s happening to me, it’s ok.

    I was incredulous when the Republicans went entirely with nothing but name recognition in 1998 in nominating Bush JR.
    And he won mainly because Clinton got his dick sucked by someone 20-25 years his junior (I actually thought that was pretty cool, but I digress). So many people I spoke with said it was impossible he would win in ‘04. So honestly, nothing would surprise me at this point. I wouldn’t be surprised if we had another “major terrorist attack wink wink” before the next election in ‘08 and martial law was declared…..for our safety of course.

  2. muleskinner October 6, 2006 5:28 am

    Kissinger on Rumsfeld: “He’s one ruthless son-of-a-bitch. I’m glad he’s our ruthless son-of-a-bitch.”

    I think I remember the quote correctly.

    In the words of the much beloved and dearly missed Joey Stalin, “A single death is a tragedy; a million, a statistic.”

    Come November, Democrats, nor ‘Republicans’ will not receive my vote. Never again will I vote for either party. I vote for people I personally know. It’s a wasted vote, I know, but ‘con’-didates don’t deserve a vote of any kind. They don’t get it and never will.

    If the ‘Republicans’ win, you lose. If the Demoncrats win, you lose.

  3. jonesin October 6, 2006 6:21 am

    Acxtually, voting has been rigged since 2000, for every election, and the evidence is hidden in plain sight. Living in Ohio, it was obvious that most of the 88 counties were manipulated by the Republican Secretary of State, who was serving his higher role as Chair of the Bush-Cheney Re-election Committee. Yes, Republican takeover of Ohio for the last 15-20 years has ensured that the SoS is allowed by law to head a partisan campaign. This year, its is his OWN campaign for Governor.

    Yes, the Democrats generally do not get it either. But there are no checks and balances in this miserable excuse for a republic, and I will not even grace it by suggesting it is a democratic republic.

    If you cared about democracy, you would care whether your vote counted. Unless you have citizens observing hand-counted paper ballots, you can be assured the fix is in.

  4. zephyr October 6, 2006 6:42 am

    Yeah, amazing…we send “diplomats” to other countries to make sure an election is legit, and here, well, we just assume it must be legit because we’re the home of the free, the brave, hollywood’s Stallone/Bruce Willis/Schwartzenegger save the world heroes, etc,etc,etc.

    Remember how the media was demonized for their exit polls in “04 for being so off the mark? Maybe there was a reason they were off the mark. Computerized ballots are the easiest to rig…but, naw, can’t stand in the way of “progress”. And while I despise Republicans, I’m not fond of Democrats either. Al Gore was Mr. Environment when he ran in the ‘88 primary. And he’s currently the savior of the world again. Well, Al, how come you didn’t do jackshit the 8 years you were the #2 man in the White House? Then might have been a good time to try out some of your ideas.

    They’re nearly all corrupt, bought off. I nearly always vote independent….twice for Perot even if he was a little nutty. What to do? Recently,I came across the picture of one man in a suit staring down a column of tanks in Tiananmen Square in ‘89. Remember how we all admired that? How bad do things have to get before American citizens grow balls like that? I have the feeling it will be way to late by the time that happens.

  5. ronandreas October 6, 2006 6:45 am

    Use this link to identify anti-war candidates:

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/antiwarcandidates.php

  6. ronandreas October 6, 2006 7:29 am

    The Opposition Party Finally Draws the Line…
    Democrats: Yes to War, No to Pedophilia!
    By SHARON SMITH

    At last, Congressional Democrats have answered critics who claim that they have forgotten how to behave as an opposition party. Party leaders have finally launched a searing attack against a criminal outrage that has gone on for three long years-while vowing to take down all Republican leaders responsible for the deception and subsequent cover-up.

    These courageous Democrats are finally regaining the moral high ground-miraculously, without sacrificing their unswerving orientation to the Republicans’ voting base in this election year.

    After all, what sane person doesn’t oppose pedophilia?

    Without for a moment minimizing the vile acts of Mark Foley, it is shameful that Congressional Democrats have staked their election-year strategy as an “opposition party” around opposing the acts of a lone Republican sexual predator, while assisting Republicans in whipping up a bi-partisan xenophobic frenzy.

    On November 7, voters will unfortunately be left with no choice other than to kick the Republican “bums” out, only to be replaced by the bums of the pseudo-opposition party. A genuine third-party has never been more desperately needed…

    Full article:http://www.counterpunch.org/sharon10042006.html

  7. Dave Stratman October 6, 2006 8:22 am

    Some people say that th eDemocrats and teh Republicans are th esame. That’s note quite true. While they are both faces of the same beast, they play different role in society. The role of the Republican Party is to give self-confidence and ideological leadership to the business classes. The role of the Democratic Party is to confuse, split, and demobilize working people. Both parties serve the sociopaths and are enemies of democracy.

    No significant change in America has ever been won at the ballot box, only through mass movements which took direct action at points where popular power could exert itself: in the factories in the great Sit-Down strikes and other mass strikes of the 1930s; in the bus boycotts, lunch-counter sit-ins, and mass demonstrations of the Civil Rights movement; in the anti-ROTC struggles, campus sit-ins, GI rebellions, fragging of officers, and GI refusal to fight of the movement against the Vietnam war.

    Voting (except on referenda) solves nothing; rather it nourishes the illusion of democracy and thereby strengthens the hand of this illegitmate government.

    Don’t Vote–Organize.

  8. Rich October 6, 2006 8:37 am

    The only party I ever joined was the Green Party in Britain in 1987, while I was also campaigning against nuclear weapons, for the release of Mandela, the deconstruction of apartheid and the tearing down of the Berlin Wall.

    I was member 5,000 of the Green Party at the time, then the organization and agenda was hi-jacked by the corporate agenda and we were all made to feel that we had saved the planet. I then had kids and jumped on the treadmill of mortgage debt - which definitely took some of the fight out of me!

    I never did vote in any election, not in Britain, Australia or the US - so you can’t blame me for the mess! Hehe!

    It was obvious in my teens that there was no real alternative to the establishment agenda, so voting for me was always kind of a joke. Democracy is really a bad idea, Republics stand the test of time.

    Democracy is the political equivalent of fiat currency - - too easy to control centrally (who counts the votes vs who prints the money).

    How many times will the US election be defrauded before the people decide enough is enough?

    Cheers Rich

  9. Simian October 6, 2006 9:15 am

    Have you considered that, perhaps if more people actually voted, we would make a difference?

    Here are two intelligent people - I can tell from haveing read your posts before - Dave Stratman and Rich - who do not vote. This, I think is the real cause. Voting has no power because no one values it. It makes it all the easier to steal the election.

    The republicans are hard at work trying to steal the next election. They are purging minorities and other working class voters from the polls. This being the case, every vote is ever more precious. Those who can vote have the responsibility to make their voice heard for those will earnestly cast their ballots, and have their votes stolen.

    We cannot change the world overnight. I agree that Gridlock is better than what we have now. I for one will cast my ballot.

    Mr. Stratman - I will ask you again, in another way, since you did not reply to my questions on the other thread - just what do you mean by “organize?” If we all collectively sit on our hands come election day, how do you propose we reject this dictatorship of the wealthy elite?

    - Simian

  10. ronandreas October 6, 2006 10:08 am

    The repugs have just decided to support Hastert. This seems to indicate that they want to turn the congress over to the Dims. This way the transition is about sex, not a failed foriegn policy. Get ready for new wars under Dimmo leadership.

  11. zephyr October 6, 2006 10:10 am

    Now we’re having a discussion,boys! Real change doesn’t come by just hoping. Forgive this if it’s a bit crude but my old man had an expression-”Wish in one hand and shit in the other, what do you have?” I think the answer is self-evident.

    The only way to get someone’s attention is to rattle some cages!

  12. ronandreas October 6, 2006 11:21 am

    Deeper and Deeper
    The New York Times | Editorial

    Thursday 05 October 2006

    There is fresh evidence, if any more were needed, that excessive borrowing during the Bush years will make the nation poorer.

    For most of the past five and a half years, interest rates have been low, allowing the government to borrow more and more - to cut taxes while fighting two expensive wars - without having to shoulder higher interest payments.

    That’s over now. For the first time during President Bush’s tenure, the government’s interest bill is expected to rise in 2006, from $184 billion in 2005 to $220 billion this year, up nearly 20 percent. That increase - $36 billion - makes interest the fastest-growing component of federal spending, and continued brisk growth is likely. According to projections by Congress’s budget office, the interest bill will grow to $249 billion in 2007, and $270 billion in 2008.

    All of that is money the government won’t have available to spend on other needs and priorities. And much of it won’t even be recycled back into the United States economy. That’s because borrowing from foreign countries has exploded during the Bush years. In 2005, the government paid about $77 billion in interest to foreign creditors in China, Japan and elsewhere.

    And that’s not the worst of it. While foreign investors were putting up most of the $1.5 trillion the federal government has borrowed since 2001, they were also snapping up hundreds of billions of dollars in private sector securities, transactions that have been a big source of the easy money that allowed Americans to borrow heavily against their homes.

    The result, as The Wall Street Journal reported last week, is that for the first time in at least 90 years, the United States is now paying noticeably more to foreign creditors than it receives from its investments abroad. That is a momentous shift. It means that a growing share of America’s future collective income will flow abroad, leading to a lower standard of living in the United States than would otherwise have been achieved.

  13. Gemstocks October 6, 2006 11:28 am

    A person who could vote and fails to do it is letting others decide for them. And those who cop out and cast a throw-away vote for a third party is really letting everybody down.

    We can take power from the GOP without giving the Democrats enough power to screw things up. That’s what this thread said we should do. If you don’t want to do it for your self maybe you can do it for the next generation?

    I’m voting Democrate, not because I agree with them, but because that’s the only vote that can nuter the Republicans.

    Gemstocks

  14. ronandreas October 6, 2006 11:30 am

    The above editorial supports the idea that the elite want Dimmos to run congress. Just like they had Clinton to put thru welfare reform they need dimmos to manage the coming austerity.

  15. zephyr October 6, 2006 11:44 am

    It’s all a game. Not to long ago I was flipping radio stations and came across Rush Limbaugh (Please, forgive me), but sometime I stop every now and then to see what the other side is actually thinking (and to see if they actually have souls). And again, forgive me because I was driving and not paying full attention, something Rush said about Hillary sounded almost concilliatory, which really struck me as odd. But think about it….since Reagan….how much actual turnover has there been in the White House. Old Man Bush was there with his buddies from ‘80 to ‘92, Clinton (who has become best of buddies with Bush SR) from ‘92 to ‘00, back to Bush, the 2nd coming from ‘00 ’til present. And if you throw folks like Kissinger into the mix, it goes back much further. I don’t think they care if Hillary makes it. It’s just a scam….and they make it even more entertaining by making it look like the Hatfields vs. the McCoys.

    It’s all the same folks, guys. And the media plays the old divide and conquer with the general public. Really sound that implausable???

  16. muleskinner October 6, 2006 12:17 pm

    Shake those chains. I wish in one hand, never do the other in the other. So, I always have more wishes. There’s two kinds of people in this world, the peons and the shitons.

    Take your pick.

  17. Gemstocks October 6, 2006 12:19 pm
  18. Rich October 6, 2006 3:52 pm

    You got it zephyr, but its much deeper than what you suspect even. Good ole conspiracy theory 101 says that there really wasn’t a cold war, Hitler was a setup, WWI was phoney, etc. The Rothschilds (the money power) have been playing one side off against the other for 200 years now.

    The Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, USS Liberty, Grenada, 9/11, etc. are all perfect examples of Hegel inspired Machiavellian machinations.

    The Hegelian Dialectic comprises three dialectical stages of development: a thesis, giving rise to its reaction, an antithesis which contradicts or negates the thesis, and the tension between the two being resolved by means of a synthesis.

    Once you start going down this road of thinking about this stuff you may never come back, MUHAHAHAHA!

    Now back to the news………

    I just got done meeting with my “financial advisor” and my wife. It was fascinating. For better or worse I have some retirement funds tied up with a large, well-respected, insurance company. When the proverbial turdola hit the fan with 9/11 I moved out of the money markets (which I’d been in since Nov ‘99 when I baled out of hi-tech) and in to gold - which at the time was around $290 as I recall.

    I also started manically screaming from the rooftops that we were living in Germany in the 1930’s, that 9/11 was an inside job (I actually said that as I watched it happening at my office the morning of the event), that the next great depression would be arriving soon, etc.

    The combination of my conspiracy rantings and gold investing tweaked my wife and her family.

    Subsequently my financial advisor and wife convinced me to sell half the gold. I was NOT happy, but felt I had to do the right thing! A chunk of dough was moved in to bonds.

    Years later, having refused to meet with my advisors for years, and now with a new rep, I finally sat down and had a conversation.

    What happened was pretty shocking. Turns out my portfolio is the best one out of over 200 being managed, even with half of it in under-performing bonds!

    As I said I had a ton of gold, then half bonds. Over time I moved some of the bonds in to global funds and then some in to energy.

    For the portfolio here are the results:
    1 year returns are 21.46%
    3 year returns are 18.18%
    5 year returns are 18.26%

    Again, this is with about now 1/3 of the funds now in bonds earning only 4+%!

    Needless to say it was a pretty interesting conversation with the advisor, and my wife!!

    I know, I’m showing off, but I’ve been through hell on this issue. Turns out I could’ve made a bunch more, but for all the freakin’ advise!

    Anyway, the moral of the story is, I haven’t a clue!

    I’m just as confused as I’ve always been.

    Cheers Rich

  19. ron October 6, 2006 4:26 pm

    In July, as the Israeli war machine ravaged much of Lebanon, Thierry Meyssan, of the Voltaire press network, wrote that the neocons and their Zionists partners are engaged in “long nurtured theory” of a Hegelian “constructive chaos” in the Middle East. “According to the adepts of philosopher Leo Strauss, whose media branch is better known under the name of ‘neo-conservatives,’ real power cannot be exerted … if one remains in the status quo, but only, quite the contrary, in the act of destroying all forms of resistance. It is by plunging the masses into chaos that the elites can aspire to ensure the stability of their position.” Moreover, by engaging in such horrendous violence, the “imperial interests of the United States merge with those of the Jewish State.”

  20. the stranger October 6, 2006 5:25 pm

    MUHAHAHAHA! Damn, you crack me up; you’re as much of a lunatic as I am. Zephyr, you said two things I have to agree with. These heads of state – same people; a real hero will killed and cloned. Clinton’s screwing around was one of the few things I liked about him.

    I’ve been voting for decades – it’s something I considered important; sacred I guess. I made a commitment not too long ago I’m done. It’s not just the vote rigging (and sure, that’s a handy, last minute maneuver) but that the vote rigging is largely unnecessary. Consent is manufactured. Now that we have so clearly crossed the Rubicon, I can’t bring myself to pretend. To vote without purpose is a dishonest act.

    Speaking of the war machine and much ravaged Lebanon, don’t forget to check in on qrswave over at The Truth Will Set You Free. Clean, well run site - those guys deserve an award for their work they’re doing. Qrswave is a machine…

  21. the stranger October 7, 2006 3:57 am

    20. worst typo ever…
    I think what I was getting at was, a true hero in today’s era, would certainly be assassinated and replaced. otta here

  22. Shooter October 7, 2006 7:03 am

    Ron - you pretty much hit it on the head I think, except you lose me with the neo-con stuff.
    I understand that most here hate Bush and think Repubs are the root of all evil, etc. But the wise comment was “two sides of the same beast.”
    The reality is that Israel is the tail that wags the U.S. dog, be it Repub or Dem, doesn’t matter. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to research the make-up of the Clinton or Bush administration. Extrapolate that from readings of “The Rothschild Dynasty” and it is pretty easy to see who runs the country.
    The “Hegelian Dialectic” pretty much explains it perfectly.
    http://nord.twu.net/acl/manifesto.html

    Lastly folks, no revolution will ever happen in a “peaceful takeover” by casting your votes. These bums will have to be thrown out by force and frankly, this country is just not uncomfortable enough to throw them out. The time will come, but not until there are enough hungry people.

  23. muleskinner October 7, 2006 8:08 am

    I suppose it all began when President Kennedy was assassinated. It was a coup de tat.

    Interestingly, the first fifty million no-promise federal reserve notes were shipped out the same day that President John F. Kennedy was buried.

    A couple of bucks gets you a venti bold at Starbucks. Apples are 1.79 dollars per pound at the grocery store (I refuse to buy them at that price). Steak is a better bargain at 3.50 per pound on sale.

    Our democratically elected rulers expect you to vote for them again, such wonderful people that they are. Mark Fooley is out of the race, though. Castro has more heart than any of the bums that hold elected office in the US. The only honorable elected representative is the Honorable Ron Paul, imho.

    Have a nice day, anyway.

  24. Nish October 7, 2006 9:41 am

    I don’t think voting will make a difference. Republicans beat you up and then rob you, democracts take you out for a drink and then make you happily hand them your wallet. The purpose is the same, the style is different. In addition, we can all vote, but who knows where the electron goes.

    I propose no more voting, a no vote is a statement in itself. In addition, I propose that we become self relient on each other, a “barter system” as much as possible. This way, we pay less taxes and ofcourse take control of our money back for ourselves.

    nishg@hotmail.com

  25. Gemstocks October 7, 2006 10:44 am

    Nish, You are right. Not voting is a statement. It says, “I quit, you win.”

    I’m not ready to do that yet.

    I believe what we have is worth fighting for. I lived through the Sixties. I lost some of my idealism and a lot of naivate, but I’m not quiting. Not yet, not while Washington is still watching to see which way the wind blows.

  26. Gemstocks October 7, 2006 11:36 am

    Penises dominate American politics. It would be funny if it was fiction. Unfortunately, it’s true and it’s about Foley, Clinton, (and we must never forget) — it’s also about those people on the other end.

    http://www.alternet.org/stories/42670/

  27. Brent Berry October 7, 2006 6:54 pm

    In response #1

    October 6th, 2006 at 4:51 am
    In truth, everyone sees the world through their own lense….you know, perception is reality.

    Clean your lenses… Have a cup of coffee.. burn a fatty and or get both sides of the story. Any logical thinker on the other hand dosen’t need the coffee… or a fatty.. JUST THE FACTS. Blame games are weak. If we vote at all..It is our own fault.. Lets give solutions from here on out.. I’ll be searching for them! Wish for good luck!

  28. zephyr October 8, 2006 8:06 am

    Wow, BrentBarry, had you just smoked a fatty when you wrote that comment….I read it 3 times and have no idea what the fuck you were trying to say….must be some good weed!!

  29. Sapiens October 8, 2006 9:15 am

    Michael,

    Could you start an article requesting ideas on how to deal with the coming storm?

    Let’s us engage the brain in the search for solutions.

    -Sapiens

  30. muleskinner October 8, 2006 11:50 am

    It’s Sunday. Let us pray.

    The War Prayer

    March 1905

    by Mark Twain

    Editor’s note: Outraged by American military intervention in the Phillipines, Mark Twain wrote this and sent it to Harper’s Bazaar. This women’s magazine rejected it for being too radical, and it wasn’t published until after Mark Twain’s death, when World War I made it even more timely. It appeared in Harper’s Monthly, November 1916.

    It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety’s sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.

    Sunday morning came — next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams — visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation

    God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!

    Then came the “long” prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory –

    An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher’s side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, “Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!”

    The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside — which the startled minister did — and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:

    “I come from the Throne — bearing a message from Almighty God!” The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. “He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import — that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of — except he pause and think.

    “God’s servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two — one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this — keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor’s crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.

    “You have heard your servant’s prayer — the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it — that part which the pastor — and also you in your hearts — fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: ‘Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!’ That is sufficient. the whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory — must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!

    “O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle — be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it — for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

    (After a pause.) “Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!”

    It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.

    Source: Jim Zwick ed., Mark Twain’s Weapons of Satire (Syracue: Syracuse University Press, 1992), pp. 156-160.

  31. Rich October 8, 2006 12:24 pm

    “Remember, remember the fifth of November
    The gunpowder treason and plot.
    I see no reason why gunpowder treason
    Should ever be forgot.

    Guy Fawkes, twas his intent
    To blow up king and parliament.
    Three score barrels were laid below
    To prove old England’s overthrow.

    By God’s mercy he was catched
    With a dark lantern and lighted match.
    Holler boys, holler boys, let the bells ring
    Holler boys, holler boys, God save the King.”

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    We used to walk around saying this poem when I was a kid. We’d make a Guy Fawkes out of old clothes, put him in a wheelbarrow and then stand on street corners asking for “a penny for the Guy.”

    Folks would give us pennies that we’d collect and then buy fireworks to set off on November 5th, while we burned the Guy on a large bonfire. As kids we didn’t really understand what the whole thing was about, we studied basic issues of history but didn’t know what Guy Fawkes was all about.

    V for Vendetta takes this history of England and brings it current, takes out the religious element and advocates for overthrowing the regime through people power, but not through voting.

    On a seperate but related issue, have you folks seen this?

    http://prisonplanet.com/articles/october2006/021006elitistperversion.htm

    Empires crumble when perversion and corruption reach epidemic proportions. This government has allowed, even advocated, perversion on a multitude of levels. When is the Christian element that supports these criminals going to realize what they have done??

    I’m getting a V mask for Halloween this year!

    Cheers Rich

  32. Stevo October 8, 2006 12:28 pm

    The following is an Irish drinking song dedicated to the selfless members of congress who are the stalwart guardians of public morals, ethics, truth, justice, and the eternal fight of the right and good against the dark forces of evil, deflation, and anything that looks, tastes, or smells foreign.

    SEX BUST AT THE PARK
    By William H. Shakesrear

    When night falls at the monkey cage
    Four fiends come to the park.
    They try to find young strapping lads
    With whom to have a lark.
    They line ‘em up behind the wall
    And make ‘em hunker down;
    And then there comes the big surprise
    With hopes no one will drown!

    O rumppa-pumppa, rumppa-pumppa,
    Let the good times run!
    Go call the mop and bucket brigade
    To clean up all the fun!

    That ancient fossil was a sot
    Who did some shaky steppin’.
    His crime was known both far and wide –
    Assault with a dead weapon!
    The chubby guy was full of talk –
    He liked to bend your ear.
    But when a young boy came around
    He tried to bend his rear!

    O rumppa-pumppa, etc.

    Them other two that made the team
    Were suffrin’ loads of stress,
    But they relieved their tensions by
    Creating gobs of mess!
    The young lads got corrupted by
    Free beer which flowed like wine,
    And so, were willing victims of
    Those rude, light-loafered swine!

    O rumppa-pumppa, etc.

    There was a sex bust at the park,
    Cops caught the lechers four.
    These sorry gents in chains and ‘cuffs
    Cried, “We won’t sin no more!”
    They got stuffed in the monkey cage
    Where they felt right at home.
    And if you come to view this lot,
    Please don’t step in the foam!

    O rumppa-pumppa, rumppa-pumppa
    Let the good times run!
    Go call the mop and bucket brigade
    To SOAK UP A-L-L T-H-E F-U-U-U-U-U-U-U-U-N!

    Thank you fine gentlemen, for what you have done, are doing, and will do in the service of our nation!

  33. Marty October 8, 2006 3:16 pm

    3 things we Americans could do immediately that would make a huge difference: 1.) as Connecticut Congressional candidate Phil Maymin says, all congressmen who are suspected should be arrested and tried; 2.) if the U.S. military is going to drop just one bomb, war should be declared by Congress first, and 3.) let’s get back to writing our platforms at the national conventions, then fielding the candidates and chosing the one who best represents the party’s platform.

  34. Administrator October 8, 2006 4:05 pm

    Thank you, Simian #9, and Gemstocks #25, and everyone else who votes!!!

    Greg Palast was in town (Cambridge) last week and he spoke to a group of about 250-300 people about the stolen elections. At the end of his talk he emphasized: We (meaning disgusted liberals) whine, they vote. So it is no wonder who we have in power.

    And as I thought about it, and did a mental accounting of many of my friends, this is what I realized. Most of my friends:

    1. Are liberal
    2. Are middle / upper middle class
    3. Hate what is happening to the country
    4. Whine about it and
    5. DON’T VOTE BECAUSE THEY THINK THERE IS NO POINT.

    Hello!? Can we talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy here? Hardly any of my friends vote!!! And so what point have they made?

    Some of them are like, “I used to vote. I tried it. Once. It didn’t work.”

    I simply do not understand the idea that not voting is making some kind of a statement. If anything, it is as Gemstocks said in #25: I quit, you win. The statement is that there is no hope.

    Organizing is fine and good, but we’ll also need some allies among lawmakers in Congress when the time comes to change laws. To get those allies, we’re going to have to vote them into office.

    Yes, it is true, there is not much difference between the Dims and the Repugs. But in terms of balance of power, the world over the next two years with:

    1) Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Kissinger and a Republican House and Senate will be a very different world from

    2) Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Kissinger and a Democratic House & Senate.

    I can just hear Bush now with outcome #1: “The American people have spoken. The have given us a mandate. They don’t give a shit if we continue to eviserate their Constitution in the name of a phony War on Terror.”

    World #2, with Bush on the defensive will be a different world indeed. You can imagine it for yourself.

    Is a Democratic House/Senate the answer to all of our problems? Of course not. But it is a start.

    In deference to the “I don’t vote to make a statement” crowd: Thank you for your statement. I humbly submit to you that there is a time for making statements, and there is a time for voting. You’ve made your statements. Now I’d like to encourage you to vote.

    The American people are in a deep slumber. It is time to wake up. Getting this country to where it should be will require heroic, Herculean efforts. But you cannot ask a sleeping man to get up from his nap and start leaping tall buildings. From sleeping, you must open your eyes. Then sit up, then stand, then walk before you can even begin to think about jumping.

    Michael

  35. Rich October 8, 2006 4:41 pm

    Hey Michael.

    Remember the Kerry/Bush election? You and I produced a bumper sticker for Vote Skull and Bones!?

    Do you really believe Kerry would’ve made much difference over Bush, and do you think if we get Clinton in the next election she’ll be materially different to Bush?

    The bottom line is we are trying to fight the wrong enemy. Until the real enemy is identified you are wasting your time with fixing the wrong issue - - that is the point in not voting - - it is a waste of time until there is a viable alternative. Until then you are voting in a system that is corrupted to the core, you are codependent.

    If you believe the rot has gone too far then why vote? If you believe the system needs a complete overhaul, why vote. If you believe the elite is in control of both parties, then why vote?

    Look at the platform the Dems are now running on, it is the same as the Reps, in fact in some ways its now worse. Most of the Dems are claiming that the Reps haven’t done enough for security and they are advocating more checks, more security more policing. Well if you believe 911 was an inside job and that the current government is using the fear they’ve generated as their own platform, then why on earth would you vote for a Dem who is advocating more security, securing our borders, etc. etc. Christine Gregoire here in Washington is running on that platform.

    Greg Palast is great, I’ve followed him for years now. Way back when he was just getting some global recognition we used to trade emails. I asked him why he advocated for leftist politics when both the left and right have been hi-jacked routinely, he didn’t respond. He should be pushing for something new, something different away from traditional party politics. Thing is, if he did that he’d have no obvious base of support, but what we need to fix this mess is something new, to do that you have to take risks. Greg takes tons of risks, but stays within the traditional system, which will always lessen his impact in my opinion.

    After all of the work he’s done in proving electoral fraud on the part of the Reps in the past two elections then how on earth can he be so convinced voting is the answer. He’s proven that no matter who votes for Dems that the election can and will be stolen. Why vote??

    Until the electorate can be sure their votes count then why bother? One can just as easily argue that the establishment are laughing at the voters because they believe somehow the votes count.

    There are no easy answers to this stuff.

    Cheers Rich

  36. Administrator October 8, 2006 5:32 pm

    Hey Rich,

    Sure I remember:

    http://www.depression2.tv/chronicles/skulls.html

    No, I don’t think Kerry would have been much different from Bush - the war had already been started and so the pols would have to play the hand that was dealt. But I do think that the world would be a different place today if Gore had been elected in 2000. Would 911 even have happened? Who knows? We might already be in the depression by now, but I can assure you the world would be radically different.

    I agree there are problems and no easy answers - but do you really think that it doesn’t matter, between World 1 and World 2 in my Post #34 above?

    Yes we need a viable alternative, but we’re not going to get it by sitting around on our hands. Doing something is better than doing nothing. If you go to the polls and participate in your civic duty, maybe you can meet some other people who are equally frustrated. Maybe you can make some noise about the computer voting machines - ask some questions, demand some answers.

    Call me naive, but I believe change can happen if people earnestly desire it and make some effort - any effort - even it if that first effort is wrong and useless. At least it is a start and a path to understanding. Starting anything is always the hardest part.

    Probably 80% of my friends don’t vote, and as I said, they’re all intelligent, liberal and disgusted. Given the circumstances, it is no wonder that we get the candidates we do running on the platforms they run on. For the pols to get elected, they need to play to the issues of the voters, not to the ones who don’t.

    My point is that the people that I know seem so overeducated that they overthink the whole thing, somehow outsmarting themselves out of doing something that is very valuable because they’ve somehow convinced themselves that it is not. Maybe they think voting doesn’t matter because that is what the “elites” want them to think. Ha ha. I say that only partly in jest. Some people think they’ve got the “elites” or the “establishment” all figured out and know exactly why things are the way they are, but its not why you think. But what if that analysis is wrong?

    I dare say if all the disillusioned voters voted, different candidates with different views would emerge. They would have to. Judging from the people I know, we’ve got another silent majority or at least a silent force to be reckoned with.

    Does one vote matter? Of course. As the old saying goes - add a new fish to an old pond and you’ve got…a new pond.

    Vote, vote, vote! It is a start!!! Then start thinking about the next step.

  37. surfdude October 8, 2006 5:47 pm

    Hey Michael - your hit it right on the head. If both parties are two sides of the same evil coin, creating gridlock will nuetralize them both. They must continue to pretend to be at odds with one another, so as to divide and conquer all of us and our wallets. I hate the DEMS - but I am going to vote for them in November. (I hate the Repubs too. Neither bears any resemblance to the principles held by the founding fathers). Hopefully they will try to convince everyone how they are so different (like any deciever would) and oppose everything that Bush has done or will try to do. This could buy us some time short term. It will also be fun to watch. But in the end, they will continue to destroy the country, our freedoms, and of course - take whatever they can from our back pockets.

    In the long run the results will be the same - but at least we could delay the inevitable destruction of the US. When that process is in full force - and people start to starve - then the people will take back our country. But untill a large enough percentage of citizens are suffering BIG TIME, any talk of revolution will probably get you thrown in prison and branded a terrorist.

  38. Administrator October 8, 2006 5:51 pm

    Furthermore, the biggest group of non-voters is the 18-24 year olds. What have us old people taught them?

    30 days to the election. Register to Vote

    Find out who your Representative is in Congress.

  39. Rich October 8, 2006 6:23 pm

    In Australia you are fined if you don’t vote, so they have about 95% voter participation, but do you think it makes a difference to their democracy on the big issues?

    http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/pubs/rn/1996-97/97rn29.htm

    In 1975 Gough Whitlam, Australian Prime Minister (democratically elected by a massive turnout of the electorate), was removed from office by the Queens representative (The Governor General) - this was apparently engineered by the CIA and MI5-6.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gough_Whitlam

    A similar story can be told about Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran in 1953:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossadegh

    I hope you see my point. You are just playing within a construct that will control you no matter what you do inside of it. In order to change it you will need to get outside of it, unless you want to join the establishment somehow and try to work from within!?

    You can all vote, it won’t matter, go ask an Australian who witnessed their government being deconstructed. How many times do we all have to witness our government taking over and manipulating countries all over the world in order to see that they do that here too?????

    Seems obvious to me.

    Cheers Rich

    PS. Michael, why do you assume that me advocating that you don’t vote but seek alternative ways to create change is “doing nothing.” Why is voting “doing something” and advocating for change outside of the tradtional system something bad and apathetic?? I think I’m taking risks saying what I’m saying, I’m advocating for change outside the system - that’s doing where I’m from. Voting is the easy option. R

  40. Administrator October 8, 2006 7:07 pm

    Rich -

    I certainly didn’t mean to say that you were “doing nothing.” I think everyone here agrees that we need alternate solutions. You have good ideas. But not many people are actually doing anything regarding the alternate solutions.

    If voting is the easy option, then everyone should do it. :) There is nothing to stop people from voting and advocating for change outside the system.

    Thank you for the history lesson. I didn’t know that about Australia, but now I do. You’ve succeeded in telling us about the past, but that doesn’t tell us anything about the future. Every day it is a new pond. What does it say at the bottom of all the mutual fund prospectuses? Past performance is no guarantee of future results. (Which reminds me that since you’re gloating about your gold returns over on the other thread, I think it is about time to dump the gold. Look at the dollar - it is going up, and gold is way down from its peak.)

    Anyway, I think you’re missing my point. Surfdude got it, #37. The main point behind this thread is to motivate the apathetic liberals such as the ones I know to create gridlock. Most people think the system is rigged, but at the very least, they can create gridlock for the next two years and buy us some time.

  41. Kentar October 8, 2006 9:55 pm

    The second most worthless thing you can do is vote. The most worthless thing is to not vote.

    I consider myself to be a fiscally conservative Libertarian; however, I only consider a Libertarian candidate when I expect the results will be a landslide (in any direction) so that my vote won’t go wasted. If the poll appears close, I hold my nose and vote for the one who is least offensive.

    I’m disgusted with the political landscape now. My vote probably won’t matter much, but I know that it matters less if I refrain from casting it - infinitely less.

    America is due a wake up call in the very near future. The economic imbalances are too extreme to simply grow out of. The economy’s righting is inevitable. How our government chooses to react to economic events will be based on the political makeup of congress. Imagine single party control for 2 more years and the rubber stamping of any and all administration requests. Remember, war is a good way to boost employment, create a little inflation, and reward contributors in high places. As has been aptly demonstrated, the propaganda machine can effectively create enemies at will.

    I read somewhere that more time and money was spent by congress investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than the 9/11 events. I don’t know if that is true or how to find out, but there won’t be any additional investigation of 9/11 unless the mix in congress changes. Although the dems will investigate for the wrong reason, they will still investigate.

    The official results don’t adequately address the facts surrounding the events of the day. If the conspiracy theories have legs to stand on, there are many threads that imply involvement of the current administration. Should these people be given a blank check and remain unchecked?

    Please register to vote, and then vote your conscience. This may be America’s last chance.

    Kentar

  42. zephyr October 9, 2006 5:17 am

    After reading this morning’s 10-15 posts, I sense the growing frustration and resignation in some cases. What to do? Well, as mentioned, desperate times call for desperate measures. I’ve mentioned a march on DC (one is planned for Sept 11, 2007). I’ve been pretty much ignored.

    How about some sort of national work stoppage for a day, how about speaking to all your angry, disenfranchised friends about deciding not to pay your taxes en masse (Watch America: From Freedom to Fascism)…if enough people did either of these things, they would be unable to stop all of us.

    I’ve known a couple of people in particular who hated their lot in life…one, her job..the other, his marriage. They griped and complained and moaned, but despite all the suggestions and advice they received, THEY DID NOTHING!! Moral to this story: If all you’re going to do is cry and not take any action, then shut up! It get’s tiresome after awhile.

    If on the other hand, you really want to do something…then let’s get about it. Because let me leave you with one final scary thought. When this administration has no one to answer to in their final 2 “lame duck” years, given what they’ve already done, what will they do when they know their time grows short?

    And if you’re obsessed about the money trail behind these puppets in DC, then do some sleuthing and see where the money trail leads. These people are not gods. We outnumber them by quite abit….they’re just very good at keeping the masses divided. That must end. Let’s hear some real suggestions, because as I’ve already said, our time grows short!

  43. Rich October 9, 2006 6:07 am

    I know, Vote Prechter……wait a minute though, is he also Skull and Bones!!?? :)

    Zephyr, I think you are right, I’m not sure another march on DC is the answer though. It’s all been done before, these times call for something new, something different.

    I really don’t think voting is it, and as I’ve said already, the mass demonstrations globally against the war in Iraq were ignored (so much for traditional people power).

    Time to noodle on something new for me.

    Cheers Rich

    PS. About selling gold, hmmm……it’s tempting, but no! R

  44. ronandreas October 9, 2006 6:43 am

    Excellent points Rich. Michael, don’t you concern yourself about legitimizing these orwellian democrats? Refusing to vote is the only way to pressure them away from the republicans. They have to earn your vote.
    The following list contains candidates that have earned the vote of those who don’t support foreign military adventures:

    Alaska
    Diane Benson

    ——————————————————————————–

    Arizona
    Barry Hess
    David Nolan
    Jeff Latas

    ——————————————————————————–

    Arkansas

    ——————————————————————————–

    California
    Philip Berg
    Byron De Lear
    Peter Thottam
    Dr. Ernie Lippe

    ——————————————————————————–

    Colorado
    Bert Sargent
    Dave Chandler
    J. A. Calhoun

    ——————————————————————————–

    Connecticut
    Phil Maymin
    Richard Duffee
    Daniel Sumrall
    Ralph Ferrucci
    Ned Lamont
    Diane Farrell

    ——————————————————————————–

    Delaware
    Michael Berg

    ——————————————————————————–

    Florida
    Brian Moore
    Samm Simpson
    Frank J. Gonzalez
    Bob Bowman

    ——————————————————————————–

    Georgia

    ——————————————————————————–

    Hawaii
    Dan Akaka

    ——————————————————————————–

    Idaho
    Ted Dunlap

    ——————————————————————————–

    Illinois
    Bill Scheurer

    ——————————————————————————–

    Indiana
    David Sanders
    Steve Osborn

    ——————————————————————————–

    Iowa
    Dave Loebsack

    ——————————————————————————–

    Kansas

    ——————————————————————————–

    Kentucky

    ——————————————————————————–

    Louisiana
    Stacey Tallitsch

    ——————————————————————————–

    Maine
    Dexter Kamilewicz
    Jean Hay Bright

    ——————————————————————————–

    Maryland
    Barry Kissin
    Kevin Zeese

    ——————————————————————————–

    Massachusetts

    ——————————————————————————–

    Michigan
    Candace Caveny
    David Sole
    Ken Mathenia
    David Newland
    Aaron Stuttman
    Scotty Boman
    Allitta Hren

    ——————————————————————————–

    Minnesota
    Michael Cavlan
    Keith Ellison

    ——————————————————————————–

    Mississippi

    ——————————————————————————–

    Missouri
    Frank Gilmour

    ——————————————————————————–

    Montana

    ——————————————————————————–

    Nebraska

    ——————————————————————————–

    Nevada
    Jack Carter

    ——————————————————————————–

    New Hampshire
    Mary Maxwell

    ——————————————————————————–

    New Jersey
    Carol Gay

    ——————————————————————————–

    New Mexico

    ——————————————————————————–

    New York
    Howie Hawkins
    Jessica Flagg
    Bob Johnson
    Jonathan Tasini
    Jeff Russell
    Eric Massa
    Jack Davis

    ——————————————————————————–

    North Carolina
    Bill Glass

    ——————————————————————————–

    North Dakota

    ——————————————————————————–

    Ohio
    Charles Sanders
    Dennis Kucinich

    ——————————————————————————–

    Oklahoma

    ——————————————————————————–

    Oregon

    ——————————————————————————–

    Pennsylvania
    John Murphy
    Carl Romanelli
    Titus North

    ——————————————————————————–

    Rhode Island
    Carl Sheeler
    Rod Driver

    ——————————————————————————–

    South Carolina
    Dr. John Cobin

    ——————————————————————————–

    South Dakota

    ——————————————————————————–

    Tennessee
    Kathleen Culver
    Chris Lugo

    ——————————————————————————–

    Texas
    Richard Forsythe, Jr.
    Michael Badnarik
    John Hawley
    Ron Paul
    James Wright
    Bob Smither
    James Strohm
    Gardner Osborne
    James R. (Bob) Thompson
    Robert M. Pritchett
    Christopher Claytor

    ——————————————————————————–

    Utah

    ——————————————————————————–

    Vermont
    Craig Hill
    Dennis Morrisseau

    ——————————————————————————–

    Virginia
    Al Weed
    Shawn O’Donnell
    Andrew Hurst
    Jim Webb
    Bill Wood

    ——————————————————————————–

    Washington
    Bruce Guthrie
    Aaron Dixon
    Hong Trang

    ——————————————————————————–

    West Virginia

    ——————————————————————————–

    Wisconsin
    Rae Vogeler

    ———————————————————–

  45. marketoracle.co.uk October 9, 2006 7:26 am

    Gridlock has shown itself to be a good thing for America, where it stops many of the nutcase policies from being passed into law

  46. Gemstocks October 9, 2006 9:41 am

    Administrator wrote:

    “But I do think that the world would be a different place today if Gore had been elected in 2000.”

    I hate to disagree with the Administrator but if Greg Palast is correct, and I believe he is, Gore was elected in 2000. The election was stolen by people who do not believe in democracy.

    In my lifetime two different Presidents have served even though neither one ever won a national election. They are Ford and Bush II. One was appointed by Nixon and one by the Supreme Court.

    Will there be a third?

    James Baker has come out of retirement to polish the image of Bush Jr. and quite likely, to help Jed Bush steal the 2008 election.

  47. zephyr October 9, 2006 10:52 am

    I think the only way an election can be stolen ( and believe me, I think it was) is if the actual election is close to begin with. This allows them to focus laser-like on where to mess around. Unfortunately, opportunity has presented itself. However, if the groundswell is large enough…. They buy the other side.

    Yes, I still believe in voting but there must be more. Someone invoked Thomas Jefferson’s name the other day. He said that when the Govt fears the people you have liberty. When the people fear the Govt you have tyranny. How in the world have we allowed ourselves to be so afraid of these assholes? Technically speaking, they are public servants. When the hell are we going to start holding their feet to the fire!!!

  48. zephyr October 9, 2006 12:14 pm

    And Michael, I haven’t forgotten about you when I mantioned these large “holding areas” that are being built. I’m trying to find the links where I read this stuff.
    However, take this for whatever it’s worth: I went to visit a friend in South Dakota about a month or so ago. And she did mention that there was a new federal prison that was being built up there that was enormous. And without getting into any of the stuff we’ve been talking about on this site, she thought it was very odd, given the relatively small S. Dakota population, that something of that size was being built. Just a little something to chew on.

    On a lighter note…..The Yankees lose, THeeeeeeee Yankees lose!!! ( It’s a reference to their announcer in case you don’t get it ). So, some things in the world are still OK!

  49. Nobody October 9, 2006 2:56 pm

    “Rothchilds” — “Israel is the dog wagging the American tail” — didn’t take long for the Jewish Conspiracy Theories to show up. Just like that guy who posted a link to the racist, anti-Semitic “Stormfront” web site last week. Interesting company that’s coming here nowadays….sort of like what showed up in the “survivalist” community around 1996 or so. Nobody wanted ‘em, they just showed up. Maybe there’s a certain vibe of desperation that draws them in? At least during the Y2K hysteria no one blamed THAT on “The Jews”.

    Cheer up, Michael, you will probably get your wish. The Democrats will regain control of Congress, much to your relief and the cheers of the main stream media. They’ll kill any control of the border, put the Amero on a fast track thereby making MZM, M1, M2 and M3 irrelevent, impeach Bush (but the Senate will not vote to remove him) and help create an Islamic theocracy in Iraq that will murder far more people than Bush or Saddam ever did. Increased immigration from 3rd world countries will supply them with all the party-line voters they could ever hope to have, and in a few years we can look forward to pro-Sharia riots like they have in Europe.

    So don’t worry, be happy. You’ll get what you want. Of course, then you may not want it any more…

  50. Rich October 9, 2006 3:15 pm

    What a load of twaddle Nobody (good name btw, suits you).

    Zionist fanatics are as much to blame for current issues as either radical Christians or Muslims - - the problem is fascists of every religion, and some secular. It’s not about Jews, it’s about fanatics - and forgive me for saying so, but based on your post, you sound pretty fanatical.

    R

  51. Nobody October 9, 2006 3:17 pm

    I’m always intrigued by conspiracy theories. In the 90’s, the survivalists just knew that those little blue or green tags on the back of highway signs were actually there to guide the UN troops invading to impose the New World Order. I’m not kidding, it sounds absurd, but it was widely believed. Sane explanations involving highway departments, the companies that manufactured the signs and other mundane things made no headway. Nope, those tags just had to be part of a secret plan to round up patriots, put ‘em into holding camps and execute them. I wish I still had the long article “proving” that electric-powered guillotines had been imported from France by the Clinton White House and were stored in a warehouse just waiting to be used…it was a hoot! How all these plans for roundups and mass arrests were supposed to be handed out, but kept secret, was beyond me. Not one National Guardsman was going to look at his orders and call up his buddies? Not one police officer was going to have second thoughts about bundling people into cattle cars in the dead of night? The people at the “electric powered guillotine warehouse” weren’t going to tell any of their friends?

    We look at such things and we are amazed that anyone could believe such stuff, right?
    Now we have people who insist that the Bush crew is a bunch of super-duper conspirators who can take down the WTC with a handful of explosives, plus remote-controlled airliners, but somehow they weren’t smart enough to arrange for any WMD to be put into Iraq,so they could be “discovered” there, proving the war was justified. These conspiracies involve hundreds, even thousands of people, not one of whom ever gets drunk and says a little too much? Not one of these thousands of conspirators ever has a second thought and passes some papers on to a friend at the newspaper? Oh, and yet Bush is so incredibly stupid, he can’t tie his own shoes, he’s just a dupe for Cheney, who is somehow evil personified although no one ever explains why. Look, how can they be both superhumanly smart and incredibly stupid, please? Aren’t some people getting to the “electric powered guillotine” stage, here? You might want to reflect on how your pet conspiracy theory looks to someone outside of your groupthink process…or how it’s going to look in, say, 2010 when Hillary has been President for a year or more.

    None of these people are very smart, and many of them don’t have a clue what they are doing. A lot of them are running on “gut instinct”, which is about as reliable as Nancy Reagan’s astrologer. Think about the president of your local bank or credit union, or the top administrator of your school district, or the president of your local college, maybe your Congressional rep., the local county clerk who certifies elections… Are any of them smart enough to be part of a huge conspiracy? I’ve not met any. Some of them are downright dumb. Yet these are the people whom you regard as part of the big, secret, conspiracy.

    You want something really scary? You want something really terrifying? Here it is:
    Nobody is in charge. There’s no secret cabal of puppetmasters. There’s just a collection of people a little smarter than you, or as smart as you, or quite likely dumber than you, operating off of flawed information - maybe even no information - making the decisions that they hope won’t get them in trouble. That’s the scary part, because it means that we’re basically flying blind…

    PS: I’m not getting much useful information on the economy or the stock market off of this site nowadays. Just a thought.

  52. Nobody October 9, 2006 3:19 pm

    “What a load of twaddle Nobody (good name btw, suits you).”

    Thanks.

    “Zionist fanatics are as much to blame for current issues as either radical Christians or Muslims - - the problem is fascists of every religion, and some secular. It’s not about Jews, it’s about fanatics - and forgive me for saying so, but based on your post, you sound pretty fanatical.”

    Sure, sure, sure. It’s not about the “good” Jews, it’s about the “bad” Jews. Right. Now run along to your Klan meeting…

  53. ronandreas October 9, 2006 3:20 pm

    Elections in the USA: Justice and Perversion
    and the Perversion of Justice
    by James Petras
    http://www.dissidentvoice.org
    October 9, 2006

    In a month in which the US Congress voted to legalize torture, discard the US Constitution by abolishing habeas corpus and increase the military budget to prolong the daily slaughter of hundreds of Iraqis and Afghanis, the big controversy among the mass media and elected officials is the sexual overtures of a Republican Congressman to adolescent boys employed by Congress.

    Millions of fundamentalist Christians, who blindly supported the Republican Congress’ deadly War on Terror are in revolt against their Party because of its tolerance toward a single pervert — overlooking the torture at Abu Ghraib, Israel’s massive bombing of Lebanon and the Bush Administration’s criminal abandonment of the hundreds of thousands of poor (mostly black) citizens in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina…

    …“Corruption, depravity, perversion”, the Democrats tell us, “in high places is unacceptable”. And the Republicans, so bold in defense of torture and secret abductions, and so audacious in signing hundreds of millions of dollars in additional military aid to Israel … are shirking, cowering, stuttering and stammering that they have “cleaned house” with the resignation of their Congressional pervert; they need to press on with the “war against international and domestic terror” unmolested.

    What is essential in perpetuating the charade of basically a “one party” system, dedicated to defending imperial wars abroad and overseeing decay and authoritarianism at home, is the illusion of “party competition.” To maintain this illusion of choice in the face of a wide elite consensus, a “sideshow” is needed; preferably a show in which the minor perverts of one party can be paraded and denounced by the puffed-up moralists of the opposing party. Without this show of moral indignation and a dose of salacious titillation, voter abstention might even exceed the usual 65% for US Congressional elections.

    James Petras, a former Professor of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York

  54. marketoracle.co.uk October 9, 2006 3:20 pm

    And fundementalism is not only the remit of fanatical muslims, christians or jews, you only have to look at atheist North Korea for proof of that !

  55. Nobody October 9, 2006 3:34 pm

    Speaking of North Korea, they may or may not have tested a nuclear device in the last 24 hours. If they did, the Japanese are going to have to make some hard decisions in the near future. If they did, it’s a major failure of the Clinton and Bush administrations. If North Korea really is going nuclear, it’s not going to bode well for East Asian stability, and that’s going to affect the economy. Remember, the asian monetary crisis of the 90’s affected the world economy pretty quickly.

  56. Gemstocks October 9, 2006 3:43 pm

    The real problem is fundamentalism. Religion is a fine thing, a set of rules that help us co-exist.

    However, when the “fundamentalist” label goes on it means that one TRUE religion is better than the others and fundamentalist true believers have the right (maybe even the resposibility) to convert all non believers. And if non believers will not convert, they must die!!! Fundamentalist Christians kill abortionist; fundamentalist Muslims kill Jews, fundamentalist Jews kill anybody living close to Isreal.

    Aside from the killing, they are all nice folks.

  57. Nobody October 9, 2006 3:48 pm

    Maybe I was too harsh on Rich. He’s surely not going to a Klan meeting. But more and more, I’m running in to progressives/liberals/leftists who say stuff about “the Jews” that isn’t all that different from what the real-deal Ku Klux Klansmen used to say, and all this “Rothchilds/bankers” talk fits right in. Blaming “Zionists” for economic or political problems, or implying that “the Jews” have a special control over the White House, also fits right in.

    Now Rich also accused me of being a fanatic for what I wrote. Let’s review what I wrote:
    “Cheer up, Michael, you will probably get your wish. The Democrats will regain control of Congress, much to your relief and the cheers of the main stream media. They’ll kill any control of the border, put the Amero on a fast track thereby making MZM, M1, M2 and M3 irrelevent, impeach Bush (but the Senate will not vote to remove him) and help create an Islamic theocracy in Iraq that will murder far more people than Bush or Saddam ever did. Increased immigration from 3rd world countries will supply them with all the party-line voters they could ever hope to have, and in a few years we can look forward to pro-Sharia riots like they have in Europe.”

    RIch, will the main stream media cheer for the Democrats, if they win the Congress? I think they will, based on reading the MSM for a long time.

    Will they kill any control of the border? Look at the voting record. Look at what the Democrats say about illegal aliens. Am I a fanatic, or am I basing my statement on facts?

    Will they put the Amero on a fast track? Certainly Bush wants to do so, but do you really think Speaker Pelosi would oppose a North American Union? I don’t, based on her support for internationalization. Am I a fanatic, or do I have facts on my side?

    If US troops were removed from Iraq in short order, as the Democrat party wishes, who will come to rule Iraq? What kind of government will be put in place? What will that government do to those that oppose it? Am I a fanatic for noticing what Iran has looked like since 1979, what Syria has looked like for longer than that, and what the various Islamic factions, both Sunni and Shia, are doing right now? Or do I have facts on my side?

    The Democrat party is on record supporting more immigration. Democratic offices have sent voter registration cards to illegal aliens in California more than once, and it’s a certainty that some voted — guess which party they most likely voted for? The Democrats created the current immigration law in 1965, and it favors immigration from 3rd world countries. The pro-Sharia riots in parts of England and France may not make the cover of Mother Jones or The Nation, but they still are happening. So am I a fanatic, or do I have facts on my side?

    Anti-Semitic comments are on the rise everywhere I look on progressive, liberal web sites. Ever more elaborate conspiracy theories are there, too. Yearning for an overturning of the current system, and support for some kind of one-worldism is certainly there. Sorry, Rich, I think I’m on solid ground. You might want to reconsider your support for anti-Semitism, because it’s poison for your thinking.

  58. zephyr October 9, 2006 4:41 pm

    Nobody, I don’t know what to make of you. On the one hand, you do make some points, on the other hand, you’re severely ignorant. Yes, there are some whacked-out theories out there that make the rest of us look very bad. Ignore them…..if you think the people that run things are just “stupid”, then you’ve drank the Kool-aid. Bush, in my opinon, is just a very pliable puppet. What’s going on is very “legit”!

    You are correct in saying there are alot of dumb people. That’s purposeful. I have repeated this time and again….I work in the media. There is NO general conspiracy. Most of the reporters are too lazy, too concerned about their own careers or too trusting of their news directors to have the balls to do some actual reporting.

    It only takes a minority to really control the actual news content. I’ve been in newsrooms long enough to see very few control what goes on the airwaves that day. So, there IS a bias. And when you take into account that Jews usually control key positions in the newsroom. ( this is not a conspiracy, this is fact), then there IS a bias. Ask a foreigner, most say there is a heavy bias towards Israel. Go on the web…..it’s true…..there is a heavy bias towards Israel……Why?????….add 2 plus 2, Goddammit!!!

    And you are right about one thing fanatics/fundamentalists come in all shapes and sizes. I’m a Christian….these fundamentalist Christians scare the piss out of me…. these Jesus camps are no different than the Muslim schools in the Middle East. But I’ve been to Israel ,buddy!! The Jews treat the Palestinians like shit!!! You would think a people that have have been brutalized historically would know better. Not true!!!! And therefore, they don’t get a free pass!!! I don’t know who you are…..but you need to grow up, or get the hell off this thread…..you’re not helping!!!

  59. marketoracle.co.uk October 9, 2006 5:08 pm

    When I look at ISrael, I see the flip coin of Iran.

    On the whole the people in both countries may be fine, but both countries are led / controlled by fundementalist whacho’s who think god is giving them the right to like facist regimes.

    Actions speak louder than words, and the actions of both countries is that of religious facism.

  60. zephyr October 9, 2006 5:12 pm

    And another thing, after reading your last note…..Why the hell does the US have to keep running to the aid of Israel??? Take care of your goddamn selves…..The US gives more aid to Israel than any other nation on earth. The word ally implies that each side has something to gain from helping each other. As far as I can see, the only people gaining anything from this relationship with Israel is the politicians.
    Forgive me but I subscribe to the Judge Judy train of thought….if it doesn’t make sense then it probably isn’t true!! It isn’t anti-semetic to disagree with Israel!!! Stop playing the victim everytime someone disagrees with you whenever you’re shitting on the Palestinians/Lebanese!!!

  61. zephyr October 9, 2006 5:25 pm

    Nobody, the more I read your diatribe, the more it pisses me off. I’m of Ukranian/Polish heritage. They have been beaten to death over the years. But guess what, pisshead….I live in America now. While I wish they have basic human rights with all my heart because I have ancestors AND family there, I don’t expect the US to do back-flips to make it so!! If you’re a Jew in America, get over it. Otherwise, leave the country and become an Israeli!! Otherwise, let’s annex Israel and make it our 51st state!!!

  62. Administrator October 9, 2006 5:44 pm

    Okay everyone, maybe I’m just a simpleton. All I’m saying is vote for Gridlock, and encourage your friends to do the same. Mr. Nobody says I’ll probably get my wish, and it sure does look that way at this point.

    The conspiracists will say that this is all part of the elite plan, but I’m not smart enough to follow all the plot twists.

    I just don’t want it taken for granted that the Dims will win, so people decide they don’t need to vote.

    I was at a meeting this evening with 9 people - all middle class, very intelligent, thinking people who want to change the world. Guess what? NONE OF THEM VOTE. People, I’ll say it again. I do believe we have a problem here. When I challenged them they said, who would we vote for? And I explained again — who is going to run if they know that all the intelligent, thinking people who want to change the world simply don’t vote. It is self-reinforcing cycle.

    The end, for today.

    If voting doesn’t matter, then it won’t matter to vote, either.

    Finally, lets not be nasty to one another here. We’re all humans, and I think we all want the same thing.

    Michael

  63. surfdude October 9, 2006 6:00 pm

    You guys are getting off the point. Vote the incumbents out. Make them get real jobs. Vote for DEMS in November (but hold your nose while doing so). If I had to choose between the lesser of two evils, I would vote Rubublican like I have for 25 years. But it is time to CAUSE GRIDLOCK. During the gridlock - enjoy a brief period when no new legislation passes - let them pretend to fight. Use the time to get out of debt, stash way cash, gold and food. Learn to grow food and provide for yourself off your own land. Most people currently have no idea how to live off the land - being able to do so may make the difference between life and death.

    Bottom line - DEMS or REPUBS, it doesn’t matter - we are heading towards a depression that will make the 30’s look like boomtime. But Gridlock may provide some time to prepare… and that’s the best we can hope for.

  64. surfdude October 9, 2006 6:13 pm

    Michael - sounds like you may believe the Demon-crats may be a bit less destructive by nature. They are not - they need to be Gridlocked by a R administration. If the demons get in power in the house and senate, then you are going to advocate GRIDLOCK once again in 2008, by supporting a Repugnantcan, right?

  65. Administrator October 9, 2006 6:21 pm

    Surfdude - you hit it on the head in #63.

    And yes: People seem to think I’m a Dem, but the truth is that I hold both parties in equal contempt. It is just that right now, I think we could used the Dems in the House and Corgress to thwart any more of Bush’s brilliant ideas.

    I’m for Gridlock so that our government can hopefully do the least damage possible. However, I realize that gridlock is just a bandaid, and also a terrible waste of resources.

    I stand with those who believe we need some big changes.

    Michael

  66. Gemstocks October 9, 2006 6:29 pm

    There is a real difference between being anti-Zionist and being anti-Semitic. I think Palestinians are Semitic and I sure wish things would get better for them. Imagine how desperate they must be to let their chldren blow themselves up — just to kill a few of their enemies.

    To bad Ghandi was not born in Palestine. He would have defeated the Allies that created Isreal.

  67. surfdude October 9, 2006 6:33 pm

    Good to hear Michael - I too hold both parties in contempt. For a long time I only tollerated the Republicans because I believed that they robbed less of my hard earned money. But now I realize that it’s just a slower death - they both suck and ultimately have led us to the point of no return, It’s sad, but our children will suffer for the past decades of self - serving greed and nearsitedness of politicians from bothe sides. That is why so many people have given up and don’t want to vote - they know it is over. I don’t really blame them - but everyone must realize that this is to buy time to prepare and survive. If we can make it through the depression, the angry masses will do our bidding for us.

  68. surfdude October 9, 2006 6:49 pm

    To clarify my point - let’s use an analogy. Most of us (except Nester) know that the recent fake phoney high in the DOW was just that - a fraud. But would you short it with everything you own? Of course not - because the masses are not panicking yet, thereby helping your cause. There will be a time for that - as there will be a time when the majority of people will have had enough of the political elite that has been screwing us all for decades. That will happen during the coming depression. It will take great pain to make the average Joe to wake up and join together to fight.

    Any action now to change the system before it is time - no matter how noble and just the cause is - will end up in disaster. Let gridlock rule for a while - prepare to survive - and then watch as the average Joe and his buddies start the revolution. That is the only game plan I can think of. Things are happening fast - just wait another year or two.

  69. Sapiens October 9, 2006 7:22 pm

    Surfdude,

    On second thought, why enlighten people?

    I have a great life, I make a good living from the labor and talent of others, I benefit from rent and capital income. Although I see 99% of the people make the rope, place it on their neck and then kick the bucket to be hung.

    Why should I help them to continue to overpopulate the planet?

    Help me out here, because I am beginning to feel VERY ARROGANT!

    -Sapiens

  70. Jason M October 9, 2006 11:03 pm

    Hey Rich.

    STOP with all this talk about Democrats and Republicans being the same. It is destructive and absolutely wrong.

    First of all, it’s a petty argument to make because it can’t be proven. We’ll never know what would have happened if Kerry had been elected, and YOU don’t know either. So stop pretending you do. You don’t.

    I will say two things:

    Voting Republican vs. Democrat for President is about much more than one man. It’s about a Cabinet, it’s about breaking ties in the Senate, it’s about the SUPREME COURT. Does the current balance of conservatives versus liberals really reflect the United States of America right now? Can anyone really argue that? It’s nonsense!

    Ralph Nader argued in 2000 that there was no difference between Gore and Bush. It was a self-serving and un-American argument then, and the same is true of your arguments now. Telling people to just give up and stop thinking about the differences between the two major political parties in this country is simply an indefensible position, and yet you keep repeating it over and over again.

    I wonder why? Maybe because it makes you feel superior…

  71. surfdude October 10, 2006 4:42 am

    Sapiens - you are being a little arrogant. I enjoy the same blessings as you. But I feel it is my duty to try to help people when I can - not watch them “hang themselves”. Didn’t anyone ever try to instruct you and enlighten you?. Sure - most won’t head the advice. But maybe one or two may. I was one of those many years ago - when someone “enlightened” me. I am ever grateful. Think back - I am sure that did not get were you were by yourself.

    That is what these forums are for - not to bash each other but rather provide an open forum of ideas - to “enlighten”.

    One more point - when the 95% finally break under this current system - we all will suffer.

  72. Sapiens October 10, 2006 6:21 am

    Surfdude,

    My point is that it is a thankless job. Yes, I was helped by many mentors, but I did notice they also got tired of trying to help out just to be rebuffed.

    -Sapiens

  73. zephyr October 10, 2006 6:55 am

    Wow, again I start my day seeing some serious anger being tossed back and forth (of which, of course I was also guilty).

    You know, I’m beginning to agree with Surfdude. We can’t agree on shit in this forum….so the American people are going to unite against the oppressors? Make your preparations and enjoy the ride when it finally gets here….just make sure you have lots and lots of ammo.

    Last note on this topic: Thanks Gemstocks for clarifying between anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic. Though I leave you with an actual quote from an AP transcript, Jerusalem, 10-3-01 quote by Ariel Sharon, “Everytime we do something you tell me Americans will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear, don’t worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.” This was said in a public arena to Shimon Peres.

    People, wake up, follow the money trail? That’s what I keep hearing on this forum. Well, who has America by the financial balls? Right, the Federal Reserve. Who runs the Federal Reserve? Goldman, Lazard, Rothschild! See a connection here? Zionists? Maybe this explains our unfettered support for Israel even when the rest of world (that’s a lot of nations- they can’t all be explained off as anti-semites) condemns the Israelis for certain acts of aggression.

  74. bp October 10, 2006 7:43 am

    hm, so I guess I will side with gridlock - we all know the system is corrupt - bought and sold to the highest bidder - our representatives have to dance with who took them to the party - in this case the corporate lobbyists, fundalmentalists, etc. that gave them the money it took to get elected.

    as for “these people versus those people” - really what it seems to come down to is individuals of whatever persuasion that crave power over others no matter the cost, and damn the social responsibility - these people will say whatever it takes to get power, and lie again when things don’t turn out as they promised - our society seems to have a blind spot when it comes to sociopaths - someday I suppose that will come back to bite us.

    right now, to me it appears this snowball of corruption and greed is picking up size and speed - we can slow it down with gridlock but it seems too large and moving too fast to totally destroy, though I would like to see that happen - so in a sense I agree with surfdude - the odds of disaster increase daily.

    to me the difference between dems and repubs is minor - a few individual planks and a difference of where the pork goes, but the top ranking individuals in both parties are bought and paid for at this time.

  75. ChemicalGal October 10, 2006 8:23 am

    Hi Rich & Michael and everyone
    Been lurking around for quite a while and just had to stick my 2 cts in to the voting debacle.

    I agree that Reps & Dems are basically the same and can totally understand why people give up and don’t vote.

    However, I agree with Michael on this one. We need to vote! I, however, choose to vote an independent choice if there seems to be a good one.

    I read somewhere that if there are enough votes for the independent candidates, the Reps & Dems get the message that they are losing people and tend to temper their policies to be more in line with the independents.

    Now maybe that works and maybe it doesn’t BUT at least I have told them I DON’T LIKE WHAT YOU STAND FOR.

    So rather than not vote, why not send a message by voting for an independent candidate? You have less to lose that way than not voting at all. How else are we really going to tell both of them WE DON’T LIKE WHAT YOU’RE DOING!!!!

    Just MHO…best to all of you
    CG

  76. Cornhusker October 10, 2006 10:49 am

    I’m back, sort of. I’ve given up on my “project”. You must read this:

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601009_bushs_nuclear_apocalypse/

    Could this really happen? I’m now officially scared shitless…do I sell everything and buy gold? Does it even matter?

    When I step back and look out my window and this beautiful world God has given us, I find myself asking over and over, WHY??????

    Why do the Powerful crave war? Why is money so important to them? Did their parents not hug them enough?

  77. Administrator October 10, 2006 11:20 am

    Chemical Gal - I’m glad you’re back! I’ve missed you. Thank you!!! FeelingWeird is another one I’ve missed - I wonder if he is here lurking as well? If so, please weigh in!

    And Cornhusker! Yay! Nice to see you back! (But how do we know it is you? You said that if anyone came back before next year, he would be an imposter! Anyway, we’ll figure that out later ) - The article, if true is terrifying.

    And another reason to VOTE, if we still have an election come November!!! If for nothing else to buy us time with GRIDLOCK!!!

    Thank you all.

    Michael

  78. zephyr October 10, 2006 11:46 am

    Yep, I read that article, too. I’m going straight to a state park to be at peace, be away from people and to commune with God ( thankfully not Bushies’ God). I don’t know, maybe it is too late. I’ve actually been thinking lately that with so many in the military disagreeing with what’s going on….that we might actually have a military coup in this country. Maybe I’m dreaming, but I’m praying for just that sort of intervention.

    It’s very sad what we’ve become. So this is what’s it’s like to have a front row seat to the decline of a civilization. Peace and best wishes to everyone on this forum.

  79. Gemstocks October 10, 2006 1:19 pm

    I read Cornhuskers recomended article over on FMNN before I came here. I love the headline they gave it,
    “WAR AGAINST IRAN APOCALYPTIC”

    Scary, and I was already afraid of the future.

    Yes, buy gold, silver, PGMs.

    Perhaps more important, teach your grandchildren to live the way your grandfather lived.

  80. Dave Stratman October 10, 2006 1:42 pm

    Michael and all–

    I guess I’m not even sure what “Vote Gridlock” even means. An explanation would be helpful.

    As I’ve already said, I do not believe that people should vote but rather should attempt to use the elections for popular organizing. New Democracy called for “MassRefusal 2004″ during the last presidential elections. (For a series of articles calling for Mass Refusal to vote, see http://newdemocracyworld.org/MassRefusalHomePage.htm )I can’t say that we met with much success. A kind of blind faith in the voting process is much more deeply embedded than we understood. Still it was a useful and enlightening experience.

    Elections are a crucial means for demoralizing the populace. People are encouraged to put their hopes for change in one or another politician or party. After the election is concluded, one or another thing happens. One is that the elected official promptly betrays his campaign promises. Bill Clinton won office in 1992 promising to veto NAFTA–which, once in office, he promptly rushed through Congress on a “fast track.” (This is also a good example of the division of labor between Dems and Republicans in serving their corporate masters. George H.W. Bush was unable to get NAFTA through Congress, so the Democrat Clinton rode in to the rescue.) The result of these repeated betrayals are cynicism about the possibility of change–unless one is willing to break out of the electoral arena and consider other methods.

    Elections are profoundly demoralizing for another reason. When a party or a politican wins an election, the mantle of popular legitimacy on the winner. The media and the politicans then claim that their policies represent the popular will, even though they obviously do not. For example, “W” ran in 2000 promising a “kinder, gentler” nation and a foreign policy that would eschew “nation-building,” not on a promise of permanent war based on lies. Even so, “W” received the votes of only 25% of the electorate, if that much; his election, however, was profoundly demoralizing to a wide swath of the electorate–the 26% who voted for Gore and presumably to a large proportion of the 50% of the electorate who didn’t vote because they understood that the game is rigged.

    (I’ve been away from my computer for a few days and have just noticed that Simian wrote last week and asked me to explain what I mean by organizing. You’ll find an answer to this on the url cited above, but I’ll also speak to this asap.)

  81. muleskinner October 10, 2006 2:05 pm

    Definitely vote this November. It has to be done. However, if you must vote for either a ‘Republican’ or one of those stinky Democrats, vote for the Democrat. Also, I suggest that you buy a bottle of vodka the night before and commence your drinking just after you vote.

    If you’re not numb already from the behavior of ‘Republicans,’ the booze will help.

    Harvey Wallbangers or Screwdrivers, one or the other.

    The DOW looks high, but stocks are not following those highwater marks.

    Looks like the gold market is being manipulated too. It also looks like a bargain even at 571 dollars. I dunno, I could be wrong.

    GE

  82. bp October 10, 2006 2:25 pm

    Interesting article Cornhusker - I kinda figure Bush will bomb Iran right before he leaves office - sometime in 2008 - the way it appears is that he believes he is the only one willing to do it, and that it needs to be done, but he won’t want to oversee the fighting, let someone else clean up the mess.

    All that endless war stuff seems to come from the jerk academic Straus (sp) that influenced some of the top neo-cons (what a bunch of arrogant idiots), but i figure like you that this will lead to global depression/collapse.

    for insight into the shortcomings of the present military mentality you might want to check out this site - http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/

  83. Turk October 10, 2006 3:11 pm

    If the democrats succeed in taking the congress, I think they will rapidly push bills through on populist issues that the republicans have basically waffled and failed on. This way, if Bush approves them, he will be seen as capitulating, if he vetoes them, he will be seen as against the common sense of the American public. So-in this sense there won’t be any gridlock in the traditional thinking about gridlock in congress. This will help seal the presidential race even more in favor of the democrats. I would much prefer for all voters to go to the booth this november and vote for all the non-rep/dem candidates they can find.

  84. Administrator October 10, 2006 3:14 pm

    Hi Dave,

    Nice to see you back.

    Gridlock generally means a traffic jam so bad that nobody can move. In this case, it means to create that traffic jam in Washington - put angry Democrats in control of the House & Senate in order to thwart any of Bush’s initiatives. This is what I mean. If you read the comments above, you will understand that I don’t mean this as a long term solution, but as a way to buy time over the next two years. I do think it will make a difference over the next two years. See post #34, 35, 36 for elaboration.

    I wouldn’t say that voting is “demoralizing” - that is a very strong word. Baseball is an excellent analogy, not only for trading, but for life as well. If David Ortiz is up to bat and he strikes out, is he “demoralized?” No. He goes and sits down until it is his turn again. I think people can be demoralized only if they choose to be.

    Again, I have met so many people - smart, intelligent, kind, gentle people - who do not vote. Yesterday I met a man who said the last person he voted for was McGovern. I think it is no wonder that there are so few quality candidates, because all the quality voters have given up.

    I don’t disagree that other means of direct action must be taken, but I do not see why that cannot be taken in addition to voting. As Rich above said - voting is the easy option. If it is so easy, then why not do it AND go about other means of direct organzing? I don’t understand how refusing to vote does any good, or sends any kind of message.

    Michael

  85. Gemstocks October 10, 2006 5:05 pm

    I have a little story for those who say there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats. That was Ralph Nadars mantra back in the 2000 election, which I believe was in Nov. 1999.

    My son listened to those comments about “a vote for the lessor of two evils is still a vote for evil.” My son said, “If there is no difference between them how can there be a less evil? And if there is a difference shouldn’t a person vote for the best — even if it’s a vote for the least evil? ”

    Smat kid, my son. If humanity is going to survive the world needs more who think like that.

  86. ronandreas October 10, 2006 6:45 pm

    Read this before you vote
    Mickey Z.

    October 10, 2006

    If one were to believe the hype, nothing less than the fate the civilized world is riding on the results of the upcoming midterm elections. American-style democracy, we’re told, will step in and sort things out. Reminds me of T.S. Eliot: “An election is coming. Universal peace is declared and the foxes have a sincere interest in prolonging the lives of the poultry.” Not everyone is fooled, of course. “I think it is dangerous to confuse the idea of democracy with elections,” says Indian novelist, Arundhati Roy. “Just because you have elections doesn’t mean you’re a democratic country.”

    Questioning America’s status as a democracy is typically considered nothing short of blasphemy in polite circles but if next month’s elections are so fair and free, why are there so many questions about how votes are ultimately counted? Then again, the vote count issue would be a lot more pertinent if we had worthwhile candidates running in races in which the outcome was actually in doubt.

    In the 2004 primary races, 65 percent of the congressional races were uncontested and 58 percent of incumbent Senators who ran were unopposed. In addition, the candidate who raised the most money won 91 percent of those races. Speaking of money, how can U.S. elections be deemed truly democratic when only “major” candidates are allowed to participate in televised debates and only those accepting inordinate amounts of cash from wealthy/corporate donors are considered “major” candidates?

    ————————

    On this youtube link a programmer testifies that he was hired to write a program to rig elections:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs

  87. DmfK October 10, 2006 9:03 pm

    Long time listener, first time caller.

    I generally agree with my buddy, the Administrator here. While the Two Parties may be basically bought by the same interests, I don’t see how anyone can argue things would not be different if Gore had (officially, as opposed to actually) won. Would we have signed Kyoto? Maybe. Be stuck in Iraq? Nope. Be so massively in debt, abdicating the Geneva Conventions, etc.? Highly unlikely…

    What must be addressed is the more basic problem, the reason that voting is if not pointless, at least not very effective: The Two Parties like the current system and as constructed it cannot be changed without their consent. There is no way to ever vote in enough outsiders to have any chance at significant reform. When Republicans are aiding the Greens, you know we’re screwed.

    I don’t know all the answers (duh), but to me one big one is Proportional representation: If the Greens get 20% of the vote they get 20% of the seats — this is one way the stranglehold of the Two Parties could be broken. Yes it can result in gridlock but so can the current system — and by giving outlet to more voices it encourages participation.

    I think we also need:
    Publicly financed elections;
    Mandatory voting (or some $ incentive to vote);
    Make voting more convenient — why does everyone have to rush to the polls after work — what a pain in the ass, clearly suppresses turnout.

    How to get these kinds of structural reform? I’m afraid such a broad question falls outside the purview of this post, and probably outside that of this website as well.

    Conclusion of the foregoing.

  88. surfdude October 10, 2006 9:05 pm

    Stop it already with the “non-vote’ as an option. If you don’t vote than you have no right to complain at all. If you are as pissed as the rest of us - vote to nuetralize both parties. That is what is called gridlock. Then complain all you want. I will.

  89. muleskinner October 11, 2006 4:40 am

    If you are a communist and commit apostasy, you are condemned. The same is true of ‘Republicans,’ and maybe worse.

    I don’t trust ‘Republicans.’ I used to think that I voted for the individual, and I did vote for some ‘Republicans’ to provide balance in government. However, when it comes to ‘Republicans,’ nothing about them can be trusted. They’re worse than communists.

    They overweight their position, and nothing about them is balanced. You must be disconcerting when it comes to ‘Republicans.’ They’re only in it for themselves and nobody else.

  90. zephyr October 11, 2006 5:06 am

    Addressing 87 dmfk, You know, I believed for the longest time that things would be much different if Gore were president instead of numbnuts….but truth be told, I have my doubts. Read American Theocracy. While his family ties to oil aren’t as extreme and/or better hidden, you better believe Ol’ Al has sold his soul to the oil machine as well.

    As far as all the proposals on how to change election procedures and adjust term limits, it just won’t happen. Why would it? The people that have just elected themselves kings are going to end their own power party? Hell, while the average person gets meaningless raises, and actually loses substantial ground due to inflation and having to pay for things he didn’t have to before (ie: health care), the aristocrats give themselves substantial raises while they have the best health care plans….FOR LIFE!!!!

    I’m 41. I’ve never missed an election. But I’m beginning to see it really does make no difference. I’ll still vote….but I really have no hope of things getting any better….not without a massive purging first. So, batten down the hatches, I don’t know if it will be sudden or very long and drawn out….but a day of reckoning is coming. And like some have predicted, it’s going to make the last Depression look like a night in Vegas. Like I’ve said before……have lots of ammo!!

  91. zephyr October 11, 2006 5:43 am

    Ronandreas 86, just watched youtube link….what more do people need to see? 2 successive elections were fixed to make sure an agenda was seen through to completion.

    So, I see only 2 existing outcomes:

    1) Election 2008 will also be fixed to assure these people will stay in power. I see too many problems with this. First, you need a guaranteed close election to be able to carry off the charade without raising too much attention. Second, presidential term limits means you’re rolling the dice in hoping the public will swallow your choice of candidate. Which leaves us with….

    2) The people with control have a little over 2 years to finish whatever agenda they had. I’m pretty sure a quagmire in Iraq, threats against Iran, a partial shredding of people’s Constitutional rights, etc isn’t the total picture. I’m fairly sure more is coming. And I’m guessing that since the first 6 years haven’t gone exactly as planned, there will be added pressure to “get this shit done with the time left”.

    Who knows? After all, if it is becoming so apparent that the ‘04 election was rigged with phony computer codes, so much so that it’s on youtube, you would think Kerry and the Dems would be bringing this to light and complaining vociferously. And if they’re not, then that says to me that they’re in on the fix. Which also leads to the conclusion that these elections are just frauds/distractions for the public to chew on. Let me give you an example, if you plan on stealing something in a store…..1 person causes some commotion like a seizure. While everyone is distracted, person 2 commits the theft. (No, I haven’t done this, but it does get me thinking….) These people have all of history to look back on, on how to fleece the populace….what succeeds and what doesn’t.

    Conspiracy theory? I think we’re all pawns in one of the biggest heists in history. To bad we were all watching TV, we’re missing it.

  92. rich October 11, 2006 5:53 am

    I’m with you on this stuff zephyr, you seem like a smart person to me, must’ve been all that exposure to the soft underbelly of the media beast. You’ve seen up close and personal just how manipulated this whole system is, and how easy it is to control news room from on high. Have you ever looked at a membership list of the Council on Foriegn Relations? I would put money on 90% of the media bosses being members, and therefore sworn to secrecy. Anyway, I’m off track.

    I get tired of hearing, “if you don’t vote then you have no right to have an opinion.” I mean, where the hell does that come from!!??

    Prove to me that a vote would make a difference!

    All this chat about “well if Gore was elected things would be different.”

    Hello!?

    The election was stolen, things aren’t different and your vote didn’t matter!!! THAT IS the point!

    Now we can do a few more rounds of this stuff, believing that things will improve if we just get more people to vote for Gridlock, or whatever, but the train - with the American Democracy - left the station for the internment camp some time ago.

    Voting is not the opium of the masses, I was wrong about that, its the methadone - those addicted to democracy can’t wean themselves off something that has gone horribly wrong and seek relief from something artificial.

    Father Foley probably was voted in with a massive majority, then they put that little fox in charge of child porn policing on the internet! And his bosses knew about this stuff for years. Hmmmmm, another great victory for democracy.

    Sorry for the cyncism, but isn’t it time for something new, something better. I’m up for the march on DC idea, wearing masks of the Founding Fathers and other American Heroes of freedom, Malcolm X, Dr.King, Chomsky, Ron Paul, etc.

    Cheers Rich

  93. Bull! Not bull » Creating the New World October 11, 2006 7:00 am

    [...] While we’re waiting around for the stock market to crash, the elections, or for Bush to bomb Iran and start WW3, let’s try to do something productive with our time. Let’s try to change the world. [...]

  94. Dave Stratman October 11, 2006 7:02 am

    David Ortiz at bat? What’s that got to do with anything? I said that elections are demoralizing because they fail to deliver the change that people had hoped for and because they bless unpopular policies with the veil of democracy. They thus demoralize people about the possibility of change and about their fellow citizens.

    And what “angry Democrats” are we talking about here? The ones in the Senate who last week voted 100-0 for more billions for the war?

    The war in Iraq has lasted longer than the US role in WWII, and yet where are the angry Democratic voices raised against it? There have been a few individuals who have objected, but the Democratic Party is solidly for the war and for the strategic projection of US power into the Middle East and Central Asia of which it is part. Even those few Democrats who have criticized Bush’s conduct of the war are in total agreement with the imperial project.

    But look how destructive continued faith in the electoral process has been. There was a substantial anti-war movement in the US going into 2004. Just as we in New Democracy had feared, however, the movement was led into teh waiting arms of the Democratic Party–in spite of the fact that John Kerry was calling for an additional 90,000 troops, and in spite of the fact that Kerry said that, even knowing that the claim of WMD was a lie, he would still have voted for the war! Even though polls showed that 90% of the delegates at the Democratic Convention were anti-war, they still accepted a pro-war platform and candidate, all in the name of “Anybody but Bush.” The antiwar movement essentially ceased to exist after that. It’s not as simple as David Ortiz getting up to bat again.

    We do not have a democracy in the US, only the illusion of one, as Rich, citing Arundhuti Roy, pointed out. Hanging on to the voting process is hanging onto a dangerous illusion which has deeply destructive effects. Refusing to participate in that illusion is not “doing nothing.” It is taking a positive step outside the box. It is pulling back the curtain.

    To make your personal step more positive, tell your friends why you are doing it–why you refuse to vote and support the illusion of democracy. Encourage them to boycott the elections and to explain to their friends why we need to build a mass alternative to fake elections.

  95. Administrator October 11, 2006 7:38 am

    What does David Ortiz have to do with it? I said it is an analogy. Analogies are different ways of looking at problems to better understand them from a different perspective. When David Ortiz steps up to the plate, we expect him to get a hit, to deliver some runs, and change the game. If instead he strikes out, he “fails to deliver the change that people had hoped for” Should he be demoralized? Should the crowd be?

    No - it is part of the game. Nobody can demoralize you without your consent. There is always next time, as long as you do not give up. To me, not voting is like David Ortiz saying, “I tried batting once. I struck out. Batting doesn’t work. I’m never doing it again.” Each time you do something and fail, you learn. You come back and try again, differently.

    So you tried voting and it didn’t work. Now you’ve tried not voting, too. How did that work?

    I see nothing wrong with building mass alternatives, in fact I encourage it. New thread here on building a better world.

    Michael

  96. Administrator October 11, 2006 12:16 pm

    News from Taiwan, for inspiration:

    Taiwan sees presidential protest (BBC)

    Hundreds of thousands of demonstrators have been surrounding the presidential office in Taiwan, calling on President Chen Shui-bian to step down.

    and

    Two ways to fight corruption (IHT)

    Taiwan’s citizens understand by now that the formalities of democratic governance - competitive elections and the rule of law - must be invigorated by an active democratic culture in which citizens at all layers of society remain aware and vigilant. Otherwise, institutions tend over time to atrophy and give way to autocracy.

    Michael

  97. Lawrence October 11, 2006 4:11 pm

    Dear Mr. Administrator,

    RE: YOUR ORIGINAL RECOMMENDATION AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD:

    “A vote for Republicans is a vote for Kissinger/Cheney 06.
    Even if you’re a Republican are you sure you want that? There is an alternative:
    It’s called GRIDLOCK!
    Be patriotic – keep the Government out of our hair! This November vote for Gridlock”

    Your VOTE GRIDLOCK “call to arms” brings to mind a prescient aphorism, which I will attempt to accurately paraphrase:

    “BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR, YOU MAY RECEIVE IT”.

    I read with great interest your definitions and explanations in your subsequent posts:

    In post #84 you stated:
    “In this case, it means to create that traffic jam in Washington - put angry Democrats in control of the House & Senate in order to thwart any of Bush’s initiatives. This is what I mean. If you read the comments above, you will understand that I don’t mean this as a long term solution, but as a way to buy time over the next two years. I do think it will make a difference over the next two years.

    In post #34 you stated:
    “Yes, it is true, there is not much difference between the Dims and the Repugs. But in terms of balance of power, the world over the next two years with:

    1)Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Kissinger and a Republican House and Senate will be a very different world from
    2)Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Kissinger and a Democratic House & Senate.

    I can just hear Bush now with outcome #1: “The American people have spoken. The have given us a mandate. They don’t give a shit if we continue to eviserate their Constitution in the name of a phony War on Terror.

    World #2, with Bush on the defensive will be a different world indeed. You can imagine it for yourself.”

    What exactly is my point you ask? My point is this - I believe that you are extremely misguided (and, perhaps, incredibly naive) as to your vision/wished-for-prediction of what Gridlock will bring to the United States and our society.

    In post #34 you tell me that I “can imagine … for myself” the Gridlock World which you are advocating and calling for. I have done just that, and this is how I imagine that World will be:

    ·Nancy Pelosi, the new Speaker of the House (two heartbeats away from the Presidency);
    ·Harry Reed, the new Senate Majority Leader;
    ·Henry Waxman, Charles Rangell, John Dingell, John Conyers, David Obey, and Ike Skelton new House Committee Chairs;
    ·Ted Kennedy, Patrick Leahy, Carl Levin, Robert Byrd, and Joseph Biden new Senate Committee Chairs;

    ·Month, after month, after month, after month, after month of Impeachment Hearings in the House and Impeachment Trials in the Senate for every last Democrat-hated high-office holder of the Bush Administration (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc.);

    ·Month, after month, after month, after month, after month of Committee hearings in both the House and the Senate in which the Democrats will attempt to politically crucify every mid and lower level political appointee of the Bush Administration;

    ·Month, after month, after month, after month, after month of failure by the new Democratic Party Congressional majorities to address the crucial issues which confront our country while they attempt to exact their political revenge (think Nero playing his lyre while Rome burns):

    o A Social Security System which is about to fail;
    o An out-of-control Medicare/Medicaid System;
    o Out-of-control illegal immigration;
    o Islamic Jihadists who have declared war upon the United States and our way of life, and who have a stated objective of establishing a Sharia based government in the U.S.;
    o Resurgent Russian nationalism and expansionism;
    o A Military/Industrial Complex in China which is quickly expanding and is not controlled by the Chinese Civilian Government;

    ·A national mainstream media which bombards the public with a constant barrage of each day’s new developments in the ongoing Impeachment Hearings and Trials for two long years, a process which will lead us to

    ·A Democratic Party sweep of the Presidency and both Houses of Congress in November, 2008 which will decisively end your desired Gridlock World and usher in a new era of single-party control.

    Bottom-line, your Gridlock Theory is misguided because the Gridlock World which you envision will probably not come to pass as you expect, and you may just bring about exactly what you are complaining about, namely single-party control and massive Federal Government intrussion and control (think Lyndon Johnson and the Democratic Congress in the 1960’s, think Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the Democratic Congress in the 1930’s).

    Mr. Administrator, “BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR, YOU MAY RECEIVE IT”.

  98. ChemicalGal October 11, 2006 5:07 pm

    Michael, I still agree with you that we must vote. But Lawrence has brought up some very real points.

    If the Dems get control, the constitution will be completely shredded. We need a new kid in town. Let’s look at the Constitutionalist Party or the Libertarian Party. Neither are perfect, but they certainly don’t have the baggage the Dem’s & Republicans are carrying around with them. They will probably acquire some as they are in office, but maybe we can get some good out of them before we have to change the Guard again.

    They both better represent My desires for adhereing to the Constitution and Taking responsibility for yourselves.

    Just a thought as I shudder when I think of Nancy Palosi as Speaker of the House. And the Dems are just as corrupt as the Reps….they just say it differently.

    Vote, but choose a viable alternative.
    I really like Ron Paul (Dr No) for President… too bad he doesn’t run.
    Best All.
    CG

  99. Administrator October 11, 2006 5:57 pm

    Dear Lawrence #97,

    I thank you for taking the time to write your insightful post. I agree, my desired outcome is the result of a negative choice - meaning a choice between the lesser of two evils. That being the case, I still choose gridlock.

    The Republicans have already failed to address the problems that you’ve cited:

    o A Social Security System which is about to fail;
    o An out-of-control Medicare/Medicaid System;
    o Out-of-control illegal immigration;
    o Islamic Jihadists who have declared war upon the United States and our way of life, and who have a stated objective of establishing a Sharia based government in the U.S.;
    o Resurgent Russian nationalism and expansionism;
    o A Military/Industrial Complex in China which is quickly expanding and is not controlled by the Chinese Civilian Government;

    Rebulicans had the government all to themselves and haven’t done a thing. I neither need nor want two more years of what we’ve gotten.

    There are no easy solutions. As I’ve said elsewhere, gridlock is not the end - it is only the beginning. You can call me naive - I don’t mind. I already know that. I don’t know what the future holds.

    You’ve done a good job of dissecting my argument, yet you haven’t suggested anything yourself.

    To you I would reply BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU DONT WISH FOR, FOR YOU CERTAINLY WILL NOT RECEIVE IT

    Regards
    Michael

  100. DmfK October 11, 2006 9:47 pm

    Sorry for the delay, I’m over here in another part of the world.

    Addressing #90 zephyr: So you think President Gore would have ordered the invasion of Iraq because of his oil connections? Iraq is a 10 year-old neocon fantasy that Gore wouldn’t have gone near. Now many basic things might be more or less the same, but to me it’s obvious that only Bush/Cheney could have gotten us exactly where we are today. But as Rich points out there was no Gore presidency and so the above is useless speculation.

    Oh, and just curious what you mean by, ‘not without a massive purging first’? Could you flesh out your vision of how the revolution will go down? Who’s purging who?

    Addressing #92 Rich: You make excellent points as always, I appreciate your cynicism and I can be as cynical as anyone. But to me it is simply unfathomable why anyone would not vote on principle. As Michael points out (#40), There is nothing to stop people from voting and advocating for change outside the system. I could argue that because no (major) election in history has ever been decided by a single vote, therefore no one person’s vote has ever mattered. It may work as an argument, but it fails the test of common sense. Assuming the elections are free and transparent, every vote counts.

    I agree that the train may have already left the station – as I said, our democracy has deeply entrenched problems which may be unchangeable from within the system. However, since you and I are on that train, giving up is not an option. As I understand you believe voting is pointless and only by other (outside the system) means can any change be realized – so what kinds of things should we be doing while we’re busy not voting? Some are up for a march on DC – that seems like a fine first step. To me what we really need is another political party that is actively espousing your (and the Founding Fathers’, Chomsky’s, etc.) ideas, and more basically, changes in the system that make it possible for such a party to arise.

    I mentioned proportional representation, someone else brought up a great one, runoff voting – and of course no more black box voting. There are plenty of good ideas out there, the problem is getting them made into law.

    Is such change even possible? It will take a huge amount of organized work. It may in fact be impossible. But as Michael says, if you ain’t wishing for it, and working toward it, it ain’t gonna happen. We need to decide exactly which changes we support and start organizing to bring them about – before even discussing such matters becomes an arrestable offense.

  101. Lawrence October 12, 2006 2:12 pm

    October 12,2006

    Dear Michael #99:

    Thank you for your response (post # 99) to my comments (post #97). Below, I will attempt to respond to each of the points which you have made in your response.

    First, however, let me apologize for addressing you as “Mr. Administrator”. I am new to this blog and did not realize that your name is Michael – my apologies.

    Now, back to the debate.

    POINT #1):

    You state that you believe that you are making “a choice between the lesser of two evils”. On this point we are in complete agreement.

    Both major parties, Democrat and Republican, have been and continue to be rife with corruption – financial corruption, moral corruption, and treasonous corruption. Today’s headlines about the financial corruption and rule-breaking of Democratic Senator Harry Reid of Nevada (the next Senate Majority Leader if you convince enough voters to “vote gridlock” ???!!!) are just the latest example of this truth.

    POINT #2):

    You state that “the Republicans have already failed to address the problems that [I’ve] cited” in my first post. Here we disagree.

    The Republicans DID attempt to fix the Social Security System within the last two years. How did the Democrats respond ? They declared the Bush Social Security Proposal “dead on arrival” and stopped the attempt dead in its tracks. No debate, no hearings, no conferences, no attempt to enact a compromise which could, at least, begin to fix this problem.

    The Republicans HAVE enacted legislation to begin to attempt to control illegal immigration, despite strong and vocal Democratic Party opposition. Does this legislation address and correct all of the facets of the illegal immigration problem ? Not by a long shot. However it is a serious beginning which can (and hopefully will) be built upon in the future.

    The Republicans HAVE attempted to create a framework of Intelligence, Military, and Security programs to defend the United States from the war declared upon us by Islamic Jihadists. You may disagree with their programs and you may disagree as to the level of success/failure of those programs. However, you cannot disagree with the fact that the Republicans HAVE attempted to address this serious problem.

    POINT #3):

    You state that the “Rebulicans (sic) had the government all to themselves and haven’t done a thing”. Again, here we disagree.

    I have cited a few examples of programs and legislation in Point #2 above of the many “things” which the Republicans have done and which the Republicans have attempted to do (only to be often stopped by the Democrats) during the past several years. You may not like what the Republicans have done and/or attempted to do. However, the simple facts remain that the Republicans have aggressively and proactively addressed many (but far too few) of the problems which confront our Nation, and all too often the Democrats have obstructed these Republican efforts.

    POINT #4):

    You state that I “haven’t suggested anything [my]self”. Here are some of my suggestions (more in the future when I have more time – I need to run to my son’s school for parent teacher conferences now):

    End all lobbying of Congress by Foreign Governments and other non-U.S. entities. Our Constitution guarantees U.S. citizens the right to petition our government. It does not guarantee this right to Foreigners and their Governments.

    Government financed Federal election campaigns and no private or corporate donations to Federal officeholders and candidates.

    A new Federal tax structure to correct the past 60 years of abyssmal Federal Tax policy which has totally eviscerated the industrial infrastructure of the United States and left us with a hollowed-out economy and many millions of jobs lost to overseas.

    A new Federal Constitutional Convention to clarify the limits of Federal Government power and rollback the Federal Government intrusions which have been created since the early 20th century.

    More Republicans in the Federal Congress to create the numerical majorities which are necessary to be able to enact the programs (which are often opposed by the Democrats) to address the many problems which face the United States.

    Finally, back to your “lesser of two evils” comment. As I stated earlier, you are absolutely correct on this point. Having lived in a United States which has suffered badly because of the intrusive, misguided policies of the Democrats’ single party rule during the 1930’s and the 1960’s, I will gladly take the “lesser evil” of single party Republican rule. Perhaps this is where our basic disagreement lies ?

    Thank you for the interesting debate.

    Respectfully,

    Lawrence

  102. Kentar October 13, 2006 12:00 am

    WASHINGTON (ASSOCIATED FARCE) 10/13/2006
    In a rare show of bipartisan support, members of the House and Senate overwhelmingly approved the “Buck The Voter” Bill today.

    Majority and minority leaders from both Houses of Congress met with the Press today to roll out the new Bill. Rick Santorum, Senate Majority Leader (R-PA) explained the history of the Bill. Mr. Santorum said, “Members of the Committee to Reduce the Federal Deficit met with members of the Committee to Reform Elections and through a brilliant stroke of brainstorming, devised a solution to many of Washington’s problems.” He continued, “Slightly more than half of eligible voters decline to vote. In the vast majority of elections, the actual voters are narrowly split between the Republican and Democrat candidates. We received the message loud and clear - ‘traditional elections aren’t working.’” He went on to say, “In addition, most polls show that Americans feel that the Federal Deficit is out of control. The committees decided to incorporate the solution to both problems in one Bill.”

    Harry Reid, Minority Senate Leader (D-NV) then interjected, “Committee members noticed that almost all elections are won by the candidate spending the most money during the campaign. Most of this money goes for so-called ‘negative advertisements.’ The content and messages continually aim lower as election time nears. People complain to me that it interrupts their enjoyment of ‘Survivor’ and ‘The Evening News.’ It’s a lose-lose scenario. The non-supporters of the winning candidate only remember the negative Ads. I ask you, ‘What should voters remember?’”

    Dennis Hastert, Speaker of the House (R-IL) added the following comments, “Committee members recounted the massive amount of Federal largesse that they were required to bring back to their respective Districts in order to assure re-election. This “pork” spending adds to the Federal Deficit and for what? - It’s not like any of it is actually necessary for the operation of the country.”

    Nancy Pelosi, House Democratic Leader (D-CA) then concluded with, “The committees decided that a direct vote makes sense. One dollar should equal one vote.” She then added, “As our nation has progressed, we’ve enabled more and more groups to attain suffrage. It only makes sense that we expand the roles to allow anyone with the financial ability to cast a vote.”

    The Elections Committee will set up an account for each congressional race. Each “vote” will be deposited with the IRS and will be nonrefundable. There will be no limit to the number of “votes” that an individual can submit. At 11:59:59 PM EST, 11/7/2006, the polls will close. The candidate with the highest dollar vote for each seat wins the election. The Senate candidate with the highest dollar vote count will automatically become the Leader of the Senate while the House candidate with the highest dollar vote count will be Speaker of the House.

    The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that each House seat should net the government $284 million while each Senate seat should average $952 million. All of this money will go directly to paying down the deficit.

    Ron Paul (R-TX) was one of the few dissenting voices. “This Bill attacks the very basics that our country was founded on. Our fore fathers risked everything so that we would be able to fairly choose our government. After this Bill becomes law, we will no longer have a Democratic Republic. It will be a highest bid fascist state. Are these corporations that can now vote going to be satisfied with anything other than a puppet government?” He said.

    Hastert then retorted, “Aw, Ronny [Paul] is worried that things won’t work out if we try something new. He would force us back to a gold standard if he could.” That comment brought waves of bipartisan laughter from the assembled delegates.

    When asked for his opinion of the Bill, President Bush said, “I, uh … I haven’t had a chance to review the text completely, but um, uh … it looks promising. It shows what can be accomplished under my leadership.”

    Please register to vote, and then vote your conscience. This may be America’s last chance.

    Kentar

  103. Administrator October 14, 2006 3:23 pm

    Dear Lawrence #101,

    I think we are in basic agreement on #1. As I said, gridlock is just a way to buy time. Yes, they’re both corrupt, but I’d rather have them fighting each other than coming after my civil liberties.

    As for the rest of the points, while I could debate you point for point, I think it would be a waste of both of our time.

    The government is corrupt, we both agree on that. I believe Bush’s social security privatization effort was simply a way to enrich the big banks and brokerages at the expense of the common people. That is just my personal belief. I don’t really trust anything the government says. Sad, but true. I’m 38, and I don’t expect I will ever see a penny of social security funds paid to me. It is broke and everyone knows it. I think Bush just wanted to loot it for his Big Banker Business friends by privatizing it. It would have been extremely profitable.

    The country runs on illegal immigrants. If the government wanted to control it, they could - just go after the employers who hire them with stiff penalties. The reason they don’t is because that would kill business. Any talk of attempts to fix it are only political ploys to manipulate voters, in my opinion.

    As for security, I question the very basis of the War on (of) Terror. Why are we in Iraq? I still have not heard a believable official reason. I think we all know the real reason - oil, and Bush’s big business buddies. I’d rather address the root cause of the conflict than escalate militarily. Spending money on guns, planes and boms is such a waste of precious resources.

    I agree with all of your suggestions, except for the last, which I’m not sure I understand.

    In the matter of the “lesser evil” I will take gridlock over either single party Democrat or Republican rule.

    As I pointed out here: Hey, Hey LBJ, wars are profitable for both Democrats and Republicans.

    Best regards and thank you.

    Michael Nystrom

  104. Lawrence October 17, 2006 2:57 pm

    Dear Michael (#103):

    Re: our agreement on choosing the least evil on November 7th, my bottom line point is this:

    For the November 2006 election, there are 3 possible outcomes.

    #1) Greatest Evil Outcome - Democratic Party control of both Houses of Congress. As I outlined in my previous posts, this will guarantee that the Democratic Party will win control of the Presidency and both Houses of Congress in the November 2008 election. History has taught us during the past 100 years that Democratic Party domination of both the Legislature and Executive Branches in Washington has eroded personal freedom and expanded intrusive Federal Government control every time. I do not want any part of this outcome !!!

    #2) Lesser Evil Outcome - Democratic Party control of one House of Congress. That Democratic-controlled Chamber’s “get Bush” circus will produce a far greater than 50/50 chance of total Democratic Party victory in November 2008. See outcome #1 above.

    #3) Least Evil Outcome - Republican Party control is maintained in both Houses of Congress. Regardless of how bad Republican control may be, it is less evil than Democratic control.

    Having re-read all of your posts on this thread, I’ve reached the conclusion that you (as a self-professed liberal) will always prefer Democratic Party control, corruption, and incompetence and I (as a conservative/libertarian) will always prefer Republican party control, corruption, and incompetence.

    And Michael, whether or not you admit it, Democratic Party control in Washington always leads to more Federal Government intrusion into and control of the lives of U.S. citizens.

    We need a new Federal Constitutional Convention ASAP. I suggest that you actively work for that objective.

    Sincerely,

    Lawrence

  105. Administrator October 17, 2006 8:14 pm

    Dear Lawrence, #104,

    I have learned over the years that whenever someone tells me that there are x number of possible choices or outcomes - usually they say 2 or 3 - they are usually trying to push an agenda . The agenda is always one of the three alternatives they have just named. Such a false argument attempts to close the mind to other alternatives, and make it easier to push the agenda. The initial appeal of such an argument is that it has the surface appearance of truth. However, the truly open mind knows that there is always an infinite number of possible outcomes. Possibilities are rarely limited to just 2 or 3, and if that is all you see, then you are not using the imagination that God blessed you with.

    I see the agenda you’re trying to push, and it is unlikely you and I will get any further in this discussion. Which is disappointing, because it started with such promise.

    However, I do have a few final points to make.

    Regarding your point #1 – Again, it is impossible and silly to say that one outcome - a Democrat House/Senate - “guarantees” that the Democrats will control all branches of the government in 2008. Life and events in the world are just too unpredictable, and unless you just got off the phone with God, and he told you personally, I don’t know how you can possibly say that one event “guarantees” another event that is a two long years away. I take my elections one at a time. I can only vote in the 2006 election this November, and I plan to vote for gridlock.

    Two years is a long time and a lot can happen. I’ll give you just one example of what could happen: The American people get sick of the bitter fighting between the two parties that they decide to vote them both out in favor of a new party in 2008. I can imagine a slew of other possibilities, and I think anyone could as well if they first get rid of the idea that there are “only three possible outcomes.” My main point with gridlock – I don’t know how many times I have to say it – is to keep the government from doing any more harm to the Constitution, buy time and allow some of those other possible outcomes to emerge.

    I eschew labels for the very reason made evident in your post. You say that I am a “self professed liberal.” A quick search of this page for the word “liberal” reveals that I never said anything of the sort. What I did say was that 1) Greg Palast was in Cambridge, and at the end of his speech, he said, “We (meaning disgusted liberals) whine, they vote. So it is no wonder who we have in power.” He said it, not me. I also said 2) that most of my friends are liberal and most of them do not vote.

    If you would like to argue, please be precise in your language so as not to waste my time.

    For the time being, however, let us assume that I am, as you say, a “liberal.” From this tiny word – this label – you go on to make a grand, sweeping - but very false - generalization about me that I “will always prefer Democratic Party control.”

    Nothing could be further from the truth. While I generally do have a progressive, tolerant outlook that is not bound by any kind of tradition or orthodoxy – which are generally assumed to be the traits of liberals – I don’t know why you assume that means I favor Democrats. Democrats have abandoned these values just as surely as Republicans have abandoned their conservative values. In addition to believing in the traditionally “liberal” values that I enumerated above, I also believe in respect, liberty, freedom and personal responsibility. These values are generally thought of as conservative or libertarian values. This is why labels make no sense. They convey no meaning whatsoever in today’s soundbite culture that assumes that if one is a “liberal” one cannot also be a “conservative” or a “libertarian”

    People are complex and have many thoughts, feeling, emotions, and ideals that simply cannot be defined by simple words such as “conservative” or “liberal”

    Many people assume that Republicans stand for the conservative values that I just mentioned: respect, liberty, freedom and personal responsibility. They believe this, in spite of the facts, because they believe the labels without looking at the truth. Perhaps Republicans, at one time, did stand for such values, but there is nothing “conservative” that I can see about these so-called “neo-cons.” I think a more apt label would be “pseudo-cons.” Or perhaps even better, just “cons.” They say one thing and do something completely different.

    If you want to call yourself as a conservative/libertarian then you can’t “always” prefer the Republican party control. Times change, people change, parties change, the world changes. Forget what the labels used to mean – watch their actions, listen to what they say. This is not your father’s Republican party.

    In my understanding, a conservative libertarian would believe in fiscal responsibility, would not believe in foreign entanglements, and would expect government leaders to tell the truth. Those are some of the conservative values that I believe in.

    If you are a libertarian, you want government to be as small and unintrusive as possible. You would not want Homeland Security, not $500 billion per year that the country doesn’t have spent on “defense”, not being searched upside down and inside out when you want to get on an airplane, not National ID cards. A true libertarian would want a woman to be able to choose whether to have an abortion or not. A true libertarian would want complete separation of religion from government. And a true libertarian would want people to be able to end their own lives with dignity, if they so chose.

    You said

    Democratic Party control in Washington always leads to more Federal Government intrusion into and control of the lives of U.S. citizens.

    Lawrence, stop living in the past and thinking about how FDR took away our gold. That was 73 years ago. This is 2006, man! Think instead about Terri Shiavo?

    I would sure like to know what business Jeb Bush (R) Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R) Tennesse, Senator Michael Enzi (R) Wyoming, Rep Dennis Hastert (R) Tom Delay (R), Tom Davis (R) and a host of other Republicans had in meddling in the lives of private citizens. The Republican controlled house passed a bill, and George W Bush (R) returned early from vacation to sign it into law forcing her case into Federal court.

    If that is not intrusion and control, I don’t know what is. That should creep EVERYBODY out – Republican / Democrat, ALL AMERICANS. Something has gone terribly wrong in this country and that government power is out of control.

    As I said in the title of this post, and as I said throughout the post: In November, vote for Gridlock. But that is only the beginning. Your work is not done – you can’t just go home. The next step is to organize, mobilize, and take direct action to reign in the power of this government.

    Finally, I’m happy to hear that you feel we need a new Federal Constitutional Convention. However, I’m puzzled that if YOU feel we need it, why you would then attempt to direct that I should work actively for that objective.

    A true libertarian believes in personal responsibility. If you feel we need that, then YOU should go out and organize it. I encourage you to do that, and to report back to us with your ideas and the steps you’ve taken to make that a reality. I am looking forward to hearing about it, and perhaps even participating in it.

    Best regards,

    Michael Nystrom
    Administrator
    http://www.bullnotbull.com

  106. FeelingWeird October 18, 2006 9:52 am

    Right on Michael. Couldn’t have said it better myself (obviously ,because I don’t have a popular website and you do).

    I just started reading this thread, and like spoiling a good book, I went right to the end and read you’re posting Michael. I will have to go back and re-read the entirety to get all the details.

    But this is the feeling I get from everyone on this board and it’s this. We are ALL fed up with the current state of affairs and are desperate for ANY kind of an answer, even if it maybe a wrong answer.

    There is a huge problem with seeking answers and that is the fact that so many people don’t even know the question they are asking. They WANT, they DEMAND answers. Well what is the question John Q Public. Well uhhhh, geeeeee, I don’t know. But I just want things better.

    This crowd is different in that we actually have taken the time to understand the questions before demanding answers.

    And I have come to this following answer after years and years of studying the questions.

    I will quote someone, though I don’t know her name; that sums up my entire belief system at this point and I paraphrase.

    “we are at that unique and uncomfortable time in history where we find that it is TO LATE TO SAVE THE SYTEM, AND IT’S TO EARLY TO START SHOOTING PEOPLE!!!!”.

    That maybe a bit harsh and a bit negative, but I’ve come to terms with it. I have become very Zen about the whole thing. I am working on reducing my lifestyle just ahead of the collapse so as to preserve my time and my energy, to be with my family. I sold out of my house about 2 years ago (based on much of the information from this very website). I sold at the top of the market and took the proceeds to pay down debt. Before I sold out I was working on average of 60 hours a week in two jobs. And at the worst of it, my wife was also working 1 1/2 jobs. We were miserable; we spent very little quality time with the kids. And people who live constantly at that level are easily manipulated and controlled, especially those who are heavily in debt. I resented the fact that I allowed myself to fall for such an obvious trap. Lucky for me, I found this site 2 1/2 years ago (maybe even 3). It helped me to solidify my thinking and make smart and sometimes harsh decisions. Selling the house and downgrading to a small rental house was not easy. It took a huge amount of PRIDE SWALLOWING to do it, but we did it anyways, and have never regretted it.

    From here on out, I am going to use the advance information I glean from places like this, to just stay ahead of the curve. Next stop is buying a 1 acre property that fell into foreclosure a year ago, and has yet to sell. My wife and I are developing a plan to do it as cheap as possible. The land is big enough to plant fruiting trees and to have a huge garden. Because, that is the next step down. Food prices and energy prices heading back to the stratosphere. Time to get ready for that next reality.. Think 1 week post Katrina and you’ll get a sense of what’s coming down the pike.

    Better use this time of “Gridlock” wisely cuz it ain’t gonna last.

    You might be saying “but Bob, don’t you care for this country, how can you not stand and fight!”. To that I say this. THE FIGHT WAS LOST A LONG TIME AGO! Face the facts. All I can do now is wait for a sufficient number of people to finally wake up and realize it’s TIME TO WATER THE FREEDOM TREE AGAIN. And if you don’t recognize that snippet from American history than shame on you!!

    Robert NW Ohio

  107. bp October 19, 2006 7:54 am

    Michael, if you’re still reading here - I see Lue(sp?) Dobbs has come out and suggested that people change their voter registration to Independent, so maybe in addition to voting grid lock, it may be useful to advocate changing one’s voter registration to Independent.

  108. Administrator October 19, 2006 8:08 am

    bp - absolutely - great idea! I’m all for it. I’m already registered as an independent.

    Michael

  109. Lawrence November 1, 2006 8:50 pm

    Michael (#105):

    Gee, thank you soooooooo much for bestowing upon me the wisdom of your “truly open mind”.

    Every night since your post on October 17th, I’ve fallen asleep thanking God that you’ve shown me the error of my ways, namely that:

    1) I am “trying to push an agenda”;

    2) I use “false arguments … to close the mind to other alternatives”;

    3) I am using an argument which has only “the surface appearance of truth”;

    4) I am “not using the imagination that God blessed [me] with”;

    5) I am “silly” enough to predict a future outcome which, in my opinion, I believe will occur; and finally

    6) I am not “precise in [my] language so as to … waste [your] time”.

    Well, ex-cuuuuuuuuuuuse me !!!!!

    Michael, I have learned over the years that whenever someone attacks me by using personnaly insulting words and phrases to describe me and/or my opinions such as “silly”, “false arguments”, “push an agenda”, “surface appearance of truth”, “not using the imagination that God blessed you with” that he is lowering himself by resorting to a personal attack because he is incapable of responding to my ideas.

    As to being “precise” and accurate, I suggest that you re-read what I wrote in post #104, where I stated:

    “For the November 2006 election, there are 3 possible outcomes.
    #1) … Democratic Party control of both Houses of Congress …
    #2) … Democratic Party control of one House of Congress …
    #3) … Republican Party control is maintained in both Houses of Congress …”

    First, Michael, it is absolutely impossible for even ONE single additional outcome to occur other than the three which I listed, let alone the “infinite number of possible outcomes” as you stated. Your statement of other possible outcomes is flat-out factually incorrect.

    Second, Michael, in describing what I have written, please take care to be “precise” enough to distinguish between (A) my statements of fact (e.g. outlining the only 3 factually possible election outcomes next week), and (B) my statements of personal opinion (e.g. my opinion that a Democratic Party majority in either or both Houses after the November 2006 election will lead to a circus of Congressional “get Bush” hearings and a National Media “get Bush” orgy leading, in turn, to Democratic Party total single-party control after Presidential and Congressional victories in November 2008, which I believe would be the greatest evil).

    Oh, “silly” me (once again), now I get it. If I state MY opinion of how I think the future may play out, then I AM GUILTY of “pushing an agenda”, setting-up a “false argument” with only “the surface appearance of truth” because I’m NOT in possession of a “truly open mind”.

    But you Michael, on the other hand, YOU can state YOUR opinion of the future (i.e. voting Gridlock in November 2008 “will keep the government from doing any more harm to the Constitution, buy time, and allow some … other possible outcomes to emerge”) because YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY BE GUILTY of “pushing an agenda” by setting-up a “false argument” with only “the surface appearance of truth”. HOW CONVENIENT.

    HEY MICHAEL, I can state MY predictions for the future just as much as you can state YOUR predictions because YOU DON”T HAVE A MONOPOLY ON OPINIONS ABOUT THE FUTURE. You don’t have to agree with my opinions and predictions just as I don’t have to agree with yours. If you disagree with my opinions or predictions, then simply state WHY you don’t agree. DON’T ATTACK ME PERSONALLY.

    And Michael, just because I have made an obervation (which you allege is incorrect) about you being of a liberal political orientation because I misunderstood what you had written, you don’t need to demean yourself and the process by lowering yourself to a personal attack against me. SPARE ME YOUR AMATEUR INTERNET PSYCHOANALYSIS OF MY MOTIVES AND MY ALLEGED MENTAL FAILING OF NOT POSSESSING A “TRULY OPEN MIND” LIKE YOURS.

    No - wait a moment - here I go being “silly” again. If a “truly open mind” such as yours can engage in Psychoanalysis Via Internet, then I guess I should follow your enlightened example, so here goes.

    Michael, did I hit a little too close to home for your comfort causing you to attack me personally? Did I come a little to close to revealing YOUR agenda behind the “surface appearance of truth” of your “Vote Gridlock” Anthem? Michael, methinks thou protest too much.

    Oops, gotta go now - God’s calling me on the other line.

    P.S. You lectured me to “stop living in the past and thinking about how FDR took away our gold”. Michael, just where exactly did I write even a single word about FDR’s actions on gold? Oh, what’s that you say - I did NOT write even a single word about FDR and gold. Hmmmmm, so much for YOU being “precise in your language” Michael.

    Also, Michael, I noticed that on Friday October 27, 2006 you posted a link on your website which YOU titled “NYT March 6, 1933: Roosevelt’s Embargo on Gold” NOW MICHAEL, JUST EXACTLY WHO IS IT THAT’S LIVING IN THE PAST?

    Hey Pal, stop wasting MY time.

    Lawrence

  110. Administrator November 2, 2006 7:43 am

    Lawrence,

    I’m sorry if I hurt you personally. While I did attack your arguments aggressively, I do not think that I attacked you personally. If you have that impression, please accept my apologies. It was not meant as a personal attack on you, only on the arguments you were making. I believe there is a difference, and I stand by the points that I made.

    My position is that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are working in the interests of the American people. As a result, I believe the best way to combat this in the short term is through gridlock - to get the powerful interests of the government fighting each other rather than unified in stripping the American people of our rights.

    When and if the Democrats regain power, you can rest assured that I will be equally harsh on their abuses of power.

    We are all, first and foremost, Americans.

    Best regards,
    Michael Nystrom

  111. Administrator November 3, 2006 12:06 pm

    Thank you for all the great comments! I’m going to have to button up this thread to keep the spamming vandalizers at bay. Please check the Blog Home Page to see the current threads.

    Thank you!
    Michael Nystrom
    Editor
    http://www.bullnotbull.com

  112. http://c.wigrath.com/dt August 23, 2008 8:35 pm

    C E Muegge Realestaste…

    JQgCMt2 | Pollington 33 …

  113. freeadultvideoxxx September 8, 2008 5:06 pm

    freeadultvideoxxx freeadultvideoxxx

  114. Liextoikity October 2, 2008 8:02 pm

    How i may contact admin this site? I have a question.
    iijiivei

Recent Posts