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Creating the New World, Part II

Posted on October 14, 2006
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Creating the New World, Part II

Dear Everyone,

What a wonderful thread we all contributed to! As long as there is hope, I believe that we can make the world a better place. Because I had a very busy week, I didn’t have a chance to read the comments as they came. But last night I sat down and read every single one, and took nine pages of notes.

Now, onto step 2! Step 2 is the sorting phase.

We have so many great ideas, but we have only limited resources. Which of the ideas should we, on a personal and collective level, devote our energy to? One thing that my friend DmfK in Taiwan pointed out to me (this is truly a global community) is that there are two primary types of ideas that have been expressed: First there are ideas that can be undertaken at a personal level - things we can do immediately ourselves. Second, there are suggestions on a societal/political level that involve the cooperation of many people, and are thus more complex and will take more time to implement.

1. The Personal Level

Personal level ideas are those that YOU have immediate control over, right now. We don’t have control over other people’s actions, but we do have control over our own. You don’t have to “change the world” to live a life of personal integrity and responsibility. I think our Vietnamese friend Dave summed things up very nicely in his post. To summarize, we should do our best to live simply and sustainably, build community and take responsibility for all of our actions. I think the best way to educate others is by using your own life as an example, and Dave has done an excellent job at this. As a result of Dave’s post, I will begin composting my organic waste. Thanks, Dave! This is a small change, but big changes the result of lots of small ones.

Really big (voluntary) changes will come only when there is a groundswell of popular support. The groundswell for popular support will only come when enough people understand, at a fundamental level, why such changes are necessary. When enough people understand, we reach a tipping point and change occurs naturally and easily.

Makia #32 said it so beautifully, there is little more that I can add.

The problem with today’s situation is that if you want to place blame for mass exploitation, using the principles of personal responsibility, then some blame lies in the hands of the systems such as the FED, World Bank, WTO, FTC, D’s and R’s, global corporations, etc. But how much blame lies on the ignorant masses?

I’ve noticed quite painfully that these anonymous “masses” are actually my parents, my brothers and sisters, just about every friend and co-worker I’ve ever had and cared about. Somehow, I managed to seek and find “truth.” The ugly truth. But I’ve noticed quite painfully that no matter how I try and bring up “inconvenient truths” - that we need to live responsibly, to eat well (at least try), not rely on pharmaceuticals to make us healthy, not live outside our means, not take our families for granted, that there is a fundamental dysfunction with choosing between “the lesser of two evils” - these people have basically said, “I know, but…”

To quote my high school running coach, “All we can ask is that you do your best.”

Think carefully and deeply about all of your actions, and encourage others to do the same. We unfortunately live in a culture of discouragement. So many times we are told, “that is a stupid idea” “that will never work” “that is not the way to change the world” “it doesn’t matter if you drive your car or not, because everyone else will. Your impact is meaningless.” How terribly damaging this is, I cannot even begin to tell you.

Instead, help to foster a culture of encouragement. Give people the benefit of the doubt. Use phrases like “Yes!” “Great idea” “Let’s give it a try and see what happens…” That’s what this thread is all about. Practice the culture of encouragement and you will see immediate changes in your life. In keeping with this spirit of encouragement, Makia continues:

I walk with love and peace in my heart, for I’ve learned (in sometimes ego crushing lessons) that blaming others, whether they are near or far removed influences, has only caused me pain and has clouded my ability to use my own powers in my day-to-day life. How many opportunities did I completely miss because my mind was greatly occupied with blame or anger?

Simple acts at the personal level are the foundation for real change. If we are not personally responsible, how can we hold our larger institutions responsible?

2. Societal/Political/Institutional Level

Rich #79 talked about silver bullets. Yes, I believe in silver bullets, too. By my definition, a silver bullet is a simple, fundamental change that leads naturally to cascading cross-positive domino effects in other parts of society. In other words, a silver bullet is something that causes a small change that leads to big results. It is using intelligent leverage to attack the root of a problem, and change everything downstream in one fell swoop.

I believe that we should devote some of our energy to identifying such “silver bullets” and pulling the trigger for change. In this way we can cause the maximum amount of change with the least amount of effort. As I said elsewhere, a vote for gridlock is only a temporary solution - just a band aid that will buy us time. A change from R’s to D’s is not fundamental; it is not a silver bullet.

Inspired by the previous thread, my list of “silver bullets” includes:

1. Abolishing the Fed and establishing sound money
2. Term limits on law makers - no more career politicians
3. Reducing taxes and abolishing the IRS

I see the lack of these at the root of so many of America’s problems. Change these items and I believe that we would be living in a completely different world. The main problem with all of these is that the government is no longer “us”, it has become “them.” “They” and their cronies benefit from the corrupt power that comes with having held office for years and years and years.

While we’re at it, I would add a fourth:

4. Abolish the concept of corporate “personhood”

Why is it that corporations enjoy all of the rights of people, but have none of the responsibilities? This puts the rest of us at an extreme disadvantage.

While these are fundamental changes, they really quite radical and will not be easy to implement, at least not initially. At this point, the cards are truly stacked against such changes. It is unlikely that we will be able to vote for any candidates that endorse such policies any time soon. (There is only one lawmaker that I am aware of who advocates abolishing the Fed, the (truly) honorable Dr. Ron Paul. But in my book, one is better than none.) This is the importance of Part I - of living a life of integrity, and sharing your views and values with those in your community - friends, family, and coworkers.

Changing the world is a never ending process, not a single event. The struggle will be long. As such, it is better to treat it as a marathon, not a sprint. This is a long journey, and a fun and meaningful one, to boot! Be happy along the way. We’ve got a good group here, and together we can do it!

Part II - Sorting

In this phase, using the previous post as a guide, I’d like you to list what you believe to be the three or four most important actions that you take at the personal level to make a better world. Then list the three or four most important “big” society changes that you would like to see.

What I want to emphasize is that we are all inspirations to each other. If we hear what other people are doing, we will be inspired to know not only that it can be done, but that we can do it, too!

As some have suggested, I am working on a new website to further these aims. Hopefully it will be done by the next post, and the new site will serve as a reference resource for everyone interested in changing the world. I am a trader, but this is my small contribution to making the world a better place.

To recap - what are the top 3-4 personal actions you can take, and the top 3-4 societal changes you would like to see implemented? It may seem like repetition, but please take the time to think about “silver bullets” - small actions that have the largest impact.

Thank you again for participating, and for all the great ideas. Life is full of fun, and if it is not, it should be!

Michael Nystrom


Comments are closed. Thank you.


183 Comments so far
  1. barry October 14, 2006 4:40 pm

    so well said! My family are all high level in finance and do not believe when I say the fed reserve is private. Ignorance rampant. The mass is like sheep! But when you speak, the mass thinks your are nuts..What a paradox..

  2. Nick October 14, 2006 5:27 pm

    How about Silver Bullet #5
    Pass and make legal the Line Item Veto:
    This would eliminate waste and back-office deal making (you sign for my retroactive pardon, I’ll give your meatpackers less USDA inspectors) kinda of thing.

  3. Jeff Kassel October 14, 2006 6:14 pm

    “To recap - what are the top 3-4 personal actions you can take, and the top 3-4 societal changes you would like to see implemented? It may seem like repetition, but please take the time to think about “silver bullets” - small actions that have the largest impact.”…………………………………………………………………………..SO ARE WE RULLING OUT ASSASSINATIONS OF THE VILE INSECTS THAT PUT US IN THIS IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION????

  4. Brett October 14, 2006 6:23 pm


    1) Buy less ’stuff’
    2) Buy more local
    3) Save 10 per cent of gross income
    4) Use less, recycle and barter

    System wide:

    1) Abolish corporate personhood, review every 5 years–1 warning, if not fixed by next review–kill corporation.
    2) Tax more of what we don’t want
    3) Abolish lobby groups that either are too rich or otherwise too concentrated in influence.
    4) Abolish FED and IRS, replace with a flat tax above a certain amount. Below that amount, have zero or negative tax.



  5. Turk October 14, 2006 6:40 pm

    A few of the personal items I have done are: (1) Eliminated Credit card debt from my life for good, (2) Practice being a minimal consumer everywhere possible, (3)Keep the car in the garage when I can walk or ride my bicycle A few societal things I could see making us all better: (1) Change the constitution to elect a president for six years then out, make the pres appoint at least fifty percent of his appointments from at least two parties besides his own (2) Limit congress to two terms and take away their power to give themselves pay raises, tie any pay increases to performance, by national vote at the same time as the presidential vote and limit the raise to the adjusted rate of inflation that the government reports to the public. (3) Outlaw PAC’s and all gifts of any kind to congress and their families. (4) Use the combined power of government and industry to once and for all move us to a hydrogen transportation system for all personal vehicles. (5) Institute national building standards for housing to make things like passive solar and xerascaping mandatory

  6. ron October 14, 2006 6:46 pm

    Personal Acts:
    #1 Eat low on the pyramid, for health and the environment.
    #2 Resist materialism,try to live below the median.
    #3 Abandon myths and increase awareness.
    #4 Make a difference in the world.

    Societal goals:
    #1 Peace among nations. End empires.
    #2 Support education at all levels for all possible.
    #3 Socialize health care, water, and wifi.
    #4 Nationalize energy resources. Our common patrimony.

  7. Lou Rozier October 14, 2006 7:35 pm

    A global desire to create a civilization from the heart would be a delightful silver bullet. It is possible.

  8. gemstocks October 14, 2006 7:49 pm

    I’ve said this bfore but I think it’s good enough to repeat. “Teach you grandchildren to live the way your grandparents lived.”

    My grandparents farmed with draft animals, until about 1950. My grandmother got electricty in 1955, in northern Louisiana. She was age 60. She got a propane tank and got rid of her wood cook stove about the same time.

    As an adult she learned to freeze the excess produse she grew. Before that she canned it — in jars, not cans. (I never did figure that one out.)

    My grandson had email before he was 10 years old. He has never lived without cable TV. He’s never walked to school because it’s to dangerous.

    He needs to learn what my grandparents knew.


  9. Don Robertson October 14, 2006 8:11 pm

    I am really enjoying the thoughts and ideas expressed here. For those of you interested in looking at peace from a personal level, check out this site: http://www.whour.org/


  10. Sam October 14, 2006 8:38 pm

    Went thru the thread.. its wonderful.
    The common thing that seems to emerge is that we are all looking for FREEDOM.. whether it is freedom at a personal level from whatever ties us down or at a larger level - freedom from Fear.. from all the tyranny heaped upon us by the powers that be.. and lead a more peaceful life

    I suggest whenever we do ANYTHING, we pause a moment and think whether our action will bring more freedom - to ourselves or to society at large..

  11. Marc Authier October 14, 2006 9:07 pm

    The sound money proposition is the best solution to the current chaos.

    A couple of years ago the nobel prize in Economis Robert Mundell had a great suggestion to alleviate the abuse of the system by Uncle Sam but also by all these bums called Central bankers. He called it the MONDO. I think his idea of a global currency, not dependent on damn politicians and bankers, the Mondo or the Globo would be much more fair to everybody, poor as rich countries.
    And would you fix the price of this currency? The currency would be convertible in diverse basket of not jusr precious metals but commodities in general. The present system just stinks. It is destroying the middle class in the west and creating debt and assets bubbles one after the other with no economic benefit to anyone except the bankers.

  12. larry October 14, 2006 10:12 pm

    i have concluded the following…1)we all seem to agree that lies permeate our culture…2)fear must be some element of this activity,,,as in,i must get what i want by all means..3)greed seems to be following as an activity….IN SUMMARY:lies,fear,greed….to promote this unangelic behavior…..the system at large must be distressing to say the least….so,we are all immersed in a contemptuous system and must rise above it on a personal level….this is doable…but the conflict remains in that those amoung us not choosing the higher path will view these higher minded folks as suckers….prey on them and vanquish them…regular people are still in touch with regular normal decency…i do not think those that admire the illuminati crowd would value our vitue of simple straight foreward living….this board has made me become aware of dark evil forces in our culture…call me nieve,but since reading these posts i did not realize just how distorted the leaders and policy makers of our culture are…in health care,i knew the good docs where zooming the public in a confidence game of ‘i know best’…it seems to be like that’s all around….i really find it a bit much to fathom ,to be honest…all the organized spin and hyberbole just to seperate good people from their dough…i guess if we refuse to give em our dough they got no use for us…we gotta pull the carrot from them…maybe rotational boycots of evil corporations would help…if pfizer has no interest in your health and they don’t,,,stop buying their pills?…stop buying McDonalds heart attacks..cokes adult onset diabetes…lays chips arterolsclerosis…ect…just trying to suggest…dilemas within dilemas….quite a web we weave

  13. Mark October 14, 2006 10:36 pm

    Protect yourself only. The majority are sheep who want to hurt you. The nation-state is beginning to die off. It will be a long, ugly process, which I hope to enjoy here in the US.

  14. Dr Jane Karlsson October 15, 2006 5:33 am

    Hi Michael, can I ask a question? What is wrong with the Fed, why do you want to abolish it, and what would you put in its place?

  15. clark October 15, 2006 5:37 am

    As long as this country … depends upon corporate interests who “influence” their congressmen to build a factory, a football stadium, an electronics company,a munitions plant, a bridge, a road, etc. this “democracy - republican or democratic - will continue to descend into the pockets of “special interests”. This is the inevitable “endgame” in our system of government.

    In a sense when a country spends an inflation adjusted equivalent of $400 billion times 60 on armaments (the period since WWII began)is it any surprise that the military finally used all the weapons they have been given? And set aside any “power” politicians might gather from such power as they might gain… from the use of these weapons….

    On the military front this has led us into US troops participating since WWII in over 300 occassions where they have ben used outside the “homeland”.

    On the science front this has led the University of California to receive billions of dollars to build the state of the art science center for nuclear “advancement”.

    The sad thing about all this US senatorial/congressional governmental “pork” in Washington - i.e.those projects generated by “constituents” for the greater good of the constituents - is that the British government did much the same thing in the 19th century whewn it was the premier wold power … and had a “democracy”.

    During the period of Queen Victoria’s “little wars” - between 1860 and 1900 - the British fought something over 20 military campaigns.

    Such is the inherent instability of parlimentary/ congressional political structures.

    I don’t see any amount of personal “centering” or personal sweetness ameliorating these basic problems of the instability in our system, unfortunately.

    It seems to me that we are caught somehwere between dancing and intense prayer in America.

    And oddly the only thing that will slow this all down is, unhappily, the US recognizing it is broke.

    Best to you all,


  16. zephyr October 15, 2006 6:13 am

    Man, I’m just lovin’ this post. Oops, that sounded like that damn McDonalds theme!

    On a personal level, I have been allergic to MSG (although my brother the doctor tells me technically it’s not an allergy but a reaction….regardless), so for the past 20 years I have been forced to eat better, which has been great and I seek to improve my diet all the time. I’ll get into my MSG diatribe another time but it leads to

    1) Support Mom & Pop operations. I always seek them out for food because they are ultimately safer, and you’re supporting individuals who you can get to know on a personal level, not some faceless, greedy corporation who is trying to poison you.

    2) Talk, Talk, Talk this information to death. I tell everyone who is or is not willing to listen. Sure, alot of people tire of hearing it. Too bad….so does a child who needs to learn right from wrong. Carry printouts of info with you to support your argument, hand out tapes or DVD’s about what you’re talking. It helps because people may doubt you because you’re “not an expert”. REPETITION! Don’t let people get off easy, don’t forget them once you’ve made a point. Get them to share this new learned knowledge. Believe me, I’ve won converts who were dead set against me initially. Most people just have no clue….it’s very much like the Matrix movie. They just need help seeing. And don’t be afraid to be vocal!!

    3)Alternative energy. I’m installing a solar heater this week. I’m looking at solar for my hot water heater for my next project. There are many sources of alternative energy. It will cost more up front, but let’s face it, fossil fuels will only continue to rise in price, and they have a limited lifespan. There’s only so much of this stuff in the earth’s crust. Better to make changes now. Wait a year or 2 for solar electric, I’ve read Nanotechnology might make distinct advances in this area in the next couple of years.

    4) Something I had never done before but started recently, call your locally elected officials…state and federal. Let these fuckers know you’re pissed, let them know we’re not buying what the controlled mass media is selling. Tell them the exact sources of your knowledge…whether it’s 9-11, the Iraq war, peak oil, term limits, education, health care, alternative energy, immigration or the ingrown hair you’ve got in your chin. Better believe nutbags with wacked-out theories (like the fundamentalist Nazi Christians, I can say this…I’m a Christian and these bastards are hateful hypocrites) have the politicians ear. Better believe lobbyests have the politicians wallet. Scare these folks by letting them know the masses known as the puppets are cutting their strings.

    Whew! I’ll be back with with my 4 big society changes after I’ve caught my breath!

  17. Joe Sixpack October 15, 2006 6:31 am

    1.) abolish all taxes, all welfare, all SS, all Medicare, all Medicaid, all unemployment, all 80,000+ new pages per year of Federal Registers, 17 mln words IRS Tax Code (about 20 Bibles stacked up) etc.
    2,) dissolve the feds DC Gang and return to the Articles of Confederacy of 1776
    3.) you will find out that “all the people who cannot find jobs will find them as quick as hell”
    4.) sit and enjoy

  18. zephyr October 15, 2006 6:36 am

    Sorry, I have to add one more on a personal level. But I do this because even if I don’t really know any of you, I already consider you my friends. And I would tell my friends that what happened in New Orleans last year can happen nationally if this country implodes like many think.
    Prepare for Armageddon!
    -have silver and gold coins on hand
    -have cash on hand
    -if you live in a cold climate, have a damn good sleeping bag
    -have a good first aid kit
    -have a portable water purifier (Katadyn is the best)
    -have a supply of foodstuffs
    -so I don’t go on forever, get a book called Basic Preparedness and it will tell you all you need to know.

    Some of you are probably well ahead of me. But it sounds like we’re from all walks of life. Pray for the best, but be prepared for the worst.

  19. zephyr October 15, 2006 6:40 am

    Oh, yeah, how could I forget? Have Guns & Ammo….not the magazine, the real deal! Hope never to have to use it, but have it.

  20. ronandreas October 15, 2006 7:59 am

    Thom Hartmann has a new book out,

    Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class.

    It’s an account of how the US government lost its moorings and is acting against the interests of the people it was elected to serve. The results are disturbing as the book shows how the US middle class is shrinking, democracy is ebbing, and both are on life support and threatened with extinction by an omnipotent corporatocracy wanting to destroy the system of government on which the nation was founded and is codified in the letter and spirit of the Constitution.

    Those in power today want to destroy what the Founding Fathers believed in, created, and handed down for all those who followed them to preserve.

    In its place, the current ruling class wants to replace that vision with an imperial presidency supported by a submissive Congress and compliant courts that’s no different than the repressive monarchy and aristocracy the American Revolution overthrew in the first place.

    Hartmann explains if we want a healthy and vibrant middle class and a strong democracy we have to work for it. We must “define it, desire it, and work both to create and keep it.”

    It can only happen when government participates in the market place as a counter-force to corporate power. Hartmann lists three ways to do it:

    – by creating and regulating the rules under which business must operate

    – by growing and protecting jobs at home with fair trade policies and ending the practice of job destruction through outsourcing to cheap labor markets

    – by providing a full array of essential social services including education, health care and a safety net for those most in need

    – and by a fourth one mentioned elsewhere in the book - with a progressive tax system requiring corporations and those most well-off to pay their fair share according to their income level as well as providing tax relief for those least able to afford it

    Hartmann also briefly mentions what he covered in some detail in his earlier book Unequal Protection. There he explained a little known event in our history that might have changed everything had Thomas Jefferson and James Madison prevailed over Alexander Hamilton and John Adams. Jefferson and Madison were able to add the first 10 amendments to the Constitution we know as The Bill of Rights but wanted two others as well Hamilton and Adams opposed. One was the “freedom from monopolies in commerce” (what are now giant corporations) and the other was the “freedom from a permanent military” or standing armies. Try to imagine how different the country might be today if Jefferson and Madison had prevailed.
    Throughout the book, Hartmann repeatedly stresses the critical point about whether we want the kind of nation the Founders gave us serving the people or will we allow the cons to get a government in service to the “elite of a corporatocracy” and inherited wealth. A large part of what the cons want is what Hartmann calls “a religion of privatization.”

    In their view, whatever government can do, private business can do better including controlling all elements of the commons that comprise our most essential services like health care, education, parts of the military, prisons and even the electoral system. It’s all part of their fraudulent notion of “faith-based economics” that doesn’t work. Nonetheless, with government in league with business, it’s happening to the detriment of the public welfare.

    — let the public again have the right to own the military (without the high-priced private contractors), prisons, and the electoral system.

    – keep private for-profit companies out of education and have government run it free without phony programs that don’t work like No Child Left Behind.

    – demand a national single-payer health care system for everyone based on how Medicare is run.

    – demand private companies keep their hand off Social Security and keep it as a government-run retirement program and safety net for the disabled.

    – demand a living wage and the right of labor to organize again unhindered by laws or business-friendly government policies restricting its ability to be treated fairly.

    – demand a national energy program that “puts people and the planet - not Big Oil - first.”

  21. Bob Raming October 15, 2006 8:00 am


    I too have come to much the same conclusion. I recently wrote and self published a book called WAR AND DEATH OF THE AMERICAN DREAM, which uncovered the roots of the Global Elite, and their intention to establish a New World Order. Unfortuantely most Americans are not yet ready for the truth, so I had to give away almost all of the 15,000 books I had printed. It is still available on ebay. Anyway, keep up the good work.

    Robert Thomas Raming

  22. Administrator October 15, 2006 8:21 am

    Hi Jane,

    There is a long answer and a short answer to your question about the Fed. The short answer is:

    Only the US Government has the right to coin money - as outlined in the Constitution. The Fed is not part of the US Government, though most people think it is. It is actually a cartel of private banks. Our money is backed by nothing - not gold nor silver - it is fiat money, aka money by government decree. You are forced to accept it under penalty of law, even though it has no intrinsic worth. It is backed by nothing because it is created from nothing. It springs into existence when a bank loans you, or me, or any business, or the Federal government “money.” Once the money is loaned, the banks collect interest on it. While this is not illegal under current statutes, many, including myself, believe it is immoral.

    The government has sole the right to create money, but it has outsourced that duty to a private banking cartel called the Fedl. The head of the Fed is not elected by the people, but is arguably the most powerful man in the world. He sets the price of money (by setting interest rates), which determines the prices of everything you buy or sell, and whether or not you have a job.

    For more info, and a better explanation, please see this article: The Mandrake Mechanism.

    I’m interested to hear what you think. Please keep us posted.

    Best regards,

  23. larry October 15, 2006 10:23 am

    dr.jane…you remind me of me when i was convinced the system that trained me had honest intentions…not…they trained me to sell products for the corporate pill makers and then as people degenerated due to their underlying poor health which pills do not address they were passed off to surgeons to remove and replace (R&R)failing end organ situations…the corporations make billions the docs millions…the greatest scheme ever devised…a highly motivated sales force that can only earn if they sell what the corporate/governmental co-operative authorizes…depart from that carrot and you earn zero and if you offer alternative therapy to improve people’s health the local medical boards will revoke your license…you know that is true….THE most fascist organization yet implimented against humanity and involving the most fundemental asset,one’s health..i have personally documented hundreds of health miracles…we randomly seek folks with multiple complex health issues under treatment by conventional MD pill and surgery sellers…their diseases are multiple and complex…involving typical modern person profiles..you know,you see them every day…they are on mutiple pills for their multiple diseases and health just seems to evade them…they wait for the doc to come up with the correct dosage and combination of the pending alchemy miracle…their lives are being wasted in a fog of chronic painful degeneration, punctuated by colds,flues,cancers…you know,the normal patient load…NEXT we bring in wellness center sponsers to participation in integrated.alternative/comprehensive.healing programs..we film the peoples outcome….each and every time we film a personal miracle…as they shrug the pharmacuetcal pills and learn what promotes health wellness,homeostasis,balanced physiologic processes…they begin to reverse what prior was only being artifically managed at a huge economic and wellness cost..the symptoms of their unwellness,what we termed diseases all reverse and heal…over and over and over again..diabetes,gone…attention deficiet disorders,gone….headaches,gone…asthma,gone…sinusitus,gone…frequent colds and flues,gone…fatigue,gone…high blood pressure,gone….arthritic pains,reversed…irritable bowel syndrome,cured …clogged arteries, cleared,cured…CANCERS,even advanced pancreatic,resorbed and cured..i.e.not remission,resorbed and cured…non of these approaches in the unified sense are employed by the mass of doctors because the money they want is made by 10 minute 150$ thankyou wam bam mam assembly line pill selling..the corporations got the doctors to do their bidding by paying them well..join me JANE..i will show you hours of testimonials..the only conclusion you may draw is that pills and surgery reward the systems players not the patient….everything you were by intention told is fraud,well,basically works..short list of phoney treatments when employed in a layered wholistic approach returns health and wellness out of what you call disease…it will be everything you currently, do not do, can not do and the system will not renumerate…here goes..supportive supplements..juicing…detoxing(sauna,chelation.colonic)…excercise…whole nonprocessed food grown free of all manmade additives(pesticides,fungicides,herbicides,hormones,genetically modified organisms,ect)….paeolithic diet,(heavy emphasis on nutrient dense vegetables and not starchy food stuffs recommended by american researchers)…fresh water…ect….join us JANE,as the evidence is assembled the public and government will demand this simple common sense methods that promote healing rather than managing the symptoms (diseases)of the departure from wellness and homeostasis, be embrassed…the approach is low tech. as we humans are,it is basic common sense and vastly less costly, infinitly more effective at curing as well as preventing symptoms(as you now name them,diseases)..join us JANE…give up the pretense and illusion that goes with doctoring and get in the real not the made up poney corporate world…a personal challenge,eh…give up the gravey train and stop pushing pills and get off the grid and ask patients to pay out of pocket for information and techniques suppressed by media and mainstream corporate nonhealth care…or be a traiter to yourself for ever..you know the truth and it grinds on you…relieve that pressure and stear towards the blue…it’s all blue sky and miracles if you let it….do not hide behind suedo-intellectual jargon and pretense any longer..join us…we are trying to empower people and inform them that they control their lives health…not genetics,not MD’s,certainly not governments…it is a step in the true direction for you…stop selling disease and enlighten people that they own their health

  24. Nolan October 15, 2006 11:50 am

    I expect that few people would consider the stock market when trying to answer the question of how to create a new world. But its lesson are infinite. First and foremost it teaches humility. We just don’t know. We are often very certain that we do know; in fact, we don’t. So when we take on a global question such as we have here, perhaps it is good to recall that we don’t know as much as we think we do. There is just so much to it and we really can’t begin to comprehend it all.

    An article in the “Science Journal” in Friday’s edition of the WSJ helped to bring home this fact of life. It noted that people’s behavior or reactions to something like terrorism can be explained by their “world view”. In a nutshell, terrorism and deadly events, such as 9/11, elicit very different responses in the public simply because such episodes compel people to confront their own mortality. Conservatives commonly respond by being very hostile to folks who are considered different and they become very supportive of extreme military policies such as we have seen in Iraq. Many people are also very likely to conform very closely to the norms of the society; hence, they will show great reverence for the symbols of the society such as flags and the military.

    Liberals, on the other hand, have a different world view. They are people who were likely “moved to tears” when they saw how the Amish community in PA responded to the family survivors of the man who killed the Amish school children a couple of weeks ago. Supposedly well over one million dollars was sent to the Amish community by the American public in appreciation for their very compassionate and forgiving response to the family of the executioner.

    Here we see differences as obvious as night and day that illustrate how different people struggle to cope with the fear of dying. Can we really blame anyone for wanting to relieve the stress and anxiety surrounding the deaths of relatives, friends, or even the possible demise of the individual himself/herself? And if we know that the behavior that we find to be so counterproductive and destructive is in the final analysis really a coping mechanism, can we be so condemning of the person responsible for the behavior? I don’t think so. The perspective changes.

    Furthermore, the perspective just might cause us to lower our expectations and approach the matter differently. We just might look beyond the obvious to what is deep inside the other and even deep inside ourselves and we just might find ourselves accepting others despite their differences. If we do we can probably get along together just a little better.

    Right now I see anger expressed about what the stock market is doing. I have seen the words “fraud” and “phoney” and “fear driven buying” associated with the rally. We can’t comprehend what we see and we become upset about it. We want to have answers. We want to know what we should do. But from my experience, the very best moves in the market are the save moves that are typically least understood. The very best money managers and traders have admitted this over and over again. I remember talking to a money manager years ago who personally knew Paul Tudor Jones, one of the very best money managers in the trading business. He said that Jones could be wrong as much as 80% of the time and still manage to be amazingly successful. Jones himself seemed to feel very comfortable admitting that he was wrong much of the time.

    Does this mean that often we do not know and sometimes cannot know and perhaps, even in some cases, never will know?

    I think so.

    Should we not try? Should we blindly accept brutality and ugliness? No we should try. But we can also remember that we can get along even though we don’t know and even though we may be wrong. The market will still be there tomorrow and the next day and the day after that. And so it is with life. We don’t really have to know. We just have to be there. Eventually we will see what needs to be done and we’ll likely do it. And so it is for all of the rest of us as well.

  25. Carol October 15, 2006 11:54 am

    I like all the practical personal solutions cited here to the big picture problems.

  26. larry October 15, 2006 11:56 am

    before i express the similarities between the conflict of austrian balanced natural market economists verses the synthetic artifical derivative,monetarists model and modern sythetic artificial medicine verses the healing natural health arts i digress….doctors must come forward and honestly express that the outcomes of the pills and surgery model of health care are a killing machine…they must report that what they see everyday in their office is a trumpeting alarm to the ananthma that medicine is to the human condition…that honesty will shut down the corporations they sell products for…anything short of that is dishonest…all those honest individuals will in effect cause instantaneous reform of the market place

  27. Ms. Oracle October 15, 2006 2:41 pm

    I highly recommend “Natural Cures” by Kevin Trudeau. It is a good start for those new to holistic and natural healing.

    For over a year now I have grown my vegetables and fruits. It is very easy given you start with good organic seeds or starters. During the winter I used tarps and ropes or bungy cords to protect them from frost or too much moisture. Winter crops love the cold - so it is not hard. Dr. Bronner’s soap (1 tsp to 1/2 gal) sprayed on your plants prevents bugs. Olive oil (same amount) sprayed on your broccoli protects them. Safer soap sprayed on the tomatoes prevented the caterpillar to harm them. Pick the snails and slugs at night when they come out or put a small jar of beer at ground level and they will migrate to it. I used garden mesh material to cover certain crops to protect them from birds/rabbits. Overall, it is really easy to grow your own food and you just walk outside and get it! I even have an herb garden, tea garden and a bay leaf tree! Thinking out getting a pepper corn tree and some maple trees for syrup. Have stocked up on tons of Himalayan salt.
    Also,have own well water, filters/distiller, solar hot water, 8 years of chopped firewood ready, firepit set up for outdoor cooking if needed, barbeques, solar oven with colored casserole sets, guns/ammo, closet full of remedies/supplements, freezer full of organic meats. Have to find some quail traps and netting. Have friends that are ahead of me with biohazard/fallout suits, an underground diesel supply and are putting solar supply on their freezer. I have a huge dual fuel generator for now. Back up is New Zealand dual citizenship - obtained in early 90’s - dropped out when Bush Sr was in office and lived there for 6 years. Have no debt and full wealth protection. No safety box - they will take your cash and coins and weapons - it is written in the Patriot Act and I read the small bank print - they can block you from your box.
    YOU CAN DO IT - start growing your own food. It is very important that each of you learn how to. Get smart or stay lazy - up to you. Set an example and learn while everything (tools, supplies, seeds) are easy to get. Think of possibility and live in the light and love in your own little world and block out the negative global manipulation.

  28. qrswave October 15, 2006 3:20 pm

    1) never borrow money from usurers

    2) throw out your tv cut off cable

    3) teach your children well

    4) know your neighbors - and stick together

    5) start community non-profit interest-free funds - keep community money in the community!

    that’s all for now… great post, Michael!


  29. qrswave October 15, 2006 3:26 pm

    oh yes, of course . . . big goals

    1) abolish fed

    2) institute interest-free money, abolish speculation and carry trade (sorry guys)

    3) abolish for-profit insurance, healthcare, and military defense.

    3) abolish taxes on labor - only tax capital gains, but at a much lower rate than now.

    4) make shareholders liable for corporate wrongs.

    5) drastically revamp patent and copyright laws to no more than 2 yr periods - if we can’t get people to abolish it.

  30. Rich October 15, 2006 4:08 pm

    Hey Michael/Dr. Jane.

    Just to clarify the description of a US dollar, because there are some important things you didn’t mention.

    Dollars are Federal Reserve Notes, and they are backed by the “full faith and credit of the US government.” - - YOU can decide what that is worth around about now!

    Anyway, it is important to know where our money comes from and why it is wrong. I did a quick search to get that description and here it is:


    A Federal Reserve Note (FRNs or ferns) is a type of banknote issued by the Federal Reserve System and is the main type of paper currency in the United States.

    Federal Reserve Notes are fiat currency, with the words “this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private” printed on each bill. (See generally 31 U.S.C. § 5103). They are issued by the Federal Reserve Banks and have replaced United States Notes, which were once issued by the Treasury Department.

    The authority of the Federal Reserve Banks to issue notes comes from the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Legally, they are liabilities of the Federal Reserve Banks and obligations of the United States Government. Although NOT issued by the Treasury Department, Federal Reserve Notes carry the (engraved) signature of the Treasurer of the United States and the United States Secretary of the Treasury.

    Federal Reserve Notes are fiat currency, which means that they are NOT redeemable in gold, silver or any other form of lawful money (EVEN THOUGH U.S.C. 12,411 states “Federal Reserve Notes…shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand”). This has been the case since 1968. The notes have no value for themselves, but for what they will buy. They have no backing other than the “full faith and credit of the U.S. government” (i.e., the government’s ability to levy TAXES to pay its debts). In another sense, because they are legal tender, Federal Reserve Notes are “backed” by all the goods and services in the economy.

    How a federal reserve note enters the money system

    Federal Reserve Notes are printed by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP), a bureau of the United States Mint within the Department of the Treasury. Like coins minted by the United States Mint, they are provided to the Federal Reserve at nominal cost.

    A commercial bank belonging to the Federal Reserve System can obtain the notes from the Federal Reserve Bank in its district whenever it wishes. It must pay for them in full, dollar for dollar, by drawing down its account with its district Federal Reserve Bank.

    One of the main criticism’s of Federal Reserve Notes is the argument that the issuer of the notes has ALREADY TWICE DEFAULTED on payment. The first default occurred in 1933 when the Federal Reserve’s Gold Certificates were no longer redeemable or exchangable for gold at $20 per ounce. The promise to pay in gold was no longer honored. After the change, a U.S. Citizen could not redeem the notes, and foreign holders could redeem the notes at a new rate of $35 per ounce. This new fixed rate lasted until 1971. The argument essentially is that a second default occurred in 1971 — on the promise to redeem the notes at $35 an ounce of gold.

    The default argument is that Federal Reserve Notes themselves are counterfeit, or that they are an imitation made with the intent to deceptively represent the content or origins of the notes. Under this theory, there is a fundamental difference between a $20 Federal Reserve Note redeemable for an ounce of gold and a $20 Federal Reserve Note that is not redeemable in gold.

    (this is an extract from http://www.answers.com)


    Bottom line is that the American people have been defrauded by the Fed Res system. They are now owned by that system, and it could be argued that events since 911 are really the system calling the debt and beginning the process of surreptiously extracting payment.

    Cheers Rich

  31. Larrytm October 15, 2006 4:11 pm

    I too read all the interesting posts and was greatly impressed by the sincerity and awareness shown by so many of the comments. I would like to add another consideration to the mix, namely the role that the “Secret Societies” play in running the government. eg: CFR, Trilateral Commission, bilderbergers, and Skull& Bones. Few people realize that members of these societies dominate our government. Unfortunately, what goes on in their closed meetings goes on in the strictest secrecy. For those unaware I recommend reading “Rule by Secrecy” by Jim Marrs. The point being that allowing members of these societies that answer only to themselves, completely out of sight of the public they dominate by their inordinate representation in government, is as Jim Marrs puts it — Rule by Secrecy. It’s too bad that most people are too un-involved to care about how things really happen. Given their general acceptance of the most obvious abuses by their elected and appointed members of government, asking them to address the fundamental problem of a secret ‘owner class’ running things is so far beyond the pale that any attempt at government reform is most umlikely to happen.
    There’s more much more that is wrong with the way our government has evolved, but nothing is apt to be put right unless the public comes to grip with the fact that there really are men behind the curtain pulling all the strings.

  32. Atash October 15, 2006 5:57 pm

    **The government has sole the right to create money, but it has outsourced that duty to a private banking cartel called the Fedl.**

    Article 1, Section 8, US Constitution:

    The Congress shall have Power To…

    …To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

    Please note that this does NOT preclude private parties from minting coins OR issue notes **redeemable in specie**. You can still find private-issue money in old collections of US and foreign currency. This was probably outlawed by the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 (one of those double-think laws that means the gold is no longer in reserve…).

    The notes were still understood to be receipts…even as late as about the 1960s, US Federal Reserve notes said that they could be exchanged for xx dollars (a dollar being defined as a fixed amount of gold–and sometimes silver–we were sometimes on a bimetallic standard) at Federal Reserve banks…the only trouble was, they couldn’t!!! Not by US citizens, and not really by foreign central banks either (the run on US gold by Bank of France–at the instruction of de Gaulle–and then by the Bundesbank which had a massive trade surplus with USA–were settled on paper–victor’s spoils and all that…to this day a large fraction of gold in US vaults is nominally owned by Bundesbank…that doesn’t seem to be able to collect…). But the text was kept on the notes for a while to reduce the controversy over what was being planned…

    Now here is an excerpt of Section 10:

    No State shall…coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts…

    Note that the states are prohibited from issuing fiat money…BUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT!!

    In fact it did…many times…the Founding Freemasons were thieves who paid the soldiers who fought the Revolutionary War FOR them in fraudulent notes…but those thieves intended that the states should be more honest than themselves.

    The twin devils of North American history were chattel slavery (to raise vice products like tobacco and rum) and fiat money. The fiat money was in lieu of the real thing–most of the colonists forgot to bring any with them from Europe. They tended to borrow heavily from European banks and then resent the payment of interest–which they had difficulty making. The USA was a black-hole for capital until quite late in its history, during the brief golden age of capital accumulation in the latter half of the 19th century.

    “Liberty” was an accident caused by wide-open spaces–it was too easy to run away from the shakedown rackets–which were more rampant than most people realize–by heading “out west”. The rise of the money cartel was not the fall of American virtue, but a takeover of the racket by foreigners with vastly more experience running them and the tightening of the dragnet in an urbanizing country.

    It doesn’t really matter if the power to create fiat credit on demand belongs to the government, or to a private cartel. Think of it this way: how do you tell if the government owns the cartel or the cartel owns the government?

    The rebuilt Reichstag building in Berlin is full of glass windows and mirrors. The reason is to create the illusion of transparency (magicians love windows and mirrors). But this was the same government that secretly provided bombing coordinates to US and British bombers during the invasion of Iraq–a war that average German citizens had no idea their government actively participated in. Nor did they realize their government assisted in secret renditions, even causing innocent German citizens to be deported to hellholes to be tortured. None of this went through visible government channels–and yet it went through government–the REAL government, invisible to the riff-raff. ;-{)

  33. ron October 15, 2006 6:03 pm

    The problem you describe will be dealt with when the Chinese prevail. Unfortunately I can’t say I’m looking forward to it. A coup would be so much quicker.

  34. zephyr October 15, 2006 6:24 pm

    OK, big society changes…part II for me.

    1) Abolish the Fed, it’s a fraud upon the American people designed to enslave us as a nation…ever so slowly whittling down the value of a dollar until it is nothing but a bit of paper ensuring our indentured servitude for life.
    2) Abolish the current tax code, no tax on income,period. Although we would need some taxes, perhaps on purchases, for basic Govt expenditures. Which leads us to…
    3) Shrinking Govt drastically, especially on the federal level. And I mean shrinking to basic needs as envisioned by our forefathers.
    4) Term limits on all elected positions. Somehow opening up election for President to more than just rich WASP’s. Any hint of fraud gaurantees a prison term. Eliminate a 2 party domination….a certain percentage of congressional seats must be provided by percentage of votes to all parties involved, not a winner take all format.
    5) Bring back the bulk of the troops to our shores. Enough of being the world’s policeman….enough of trying to be an imperial power.
    6) If you, a representative of our federal Govt or it’s military industrial complex, are found guilty of war crimes against humanity, either directly or by supporting it through “hidden” buyoffs, bring back public executions. I am not a proponent of the death penalty per se, but in this case, like what Bush and co. are doing in Iraq, my father would suggest this: sit Ol’ George down naked on a stump, nail his balls to said stump and then push him over. These people are beyond evil.

  35. Jeff Kassel October 15, 2006 7:02 pm

    Number 10…Sam said “we are all looking for freedom.” I guess I don’t really fit into the group. I’m not an optimist.

    I can’t speak for the majority but I’M LOOKING FOR REVENGE!

  36. Nish October 15, 2006 7:37 pm

    There is no need for big changes. As long we stick to the little changes, the big ones will occur automatically. Macroeconomics should be a function of Microeconomics. Group think should be simply a function of a collaboration of individual thoughts, not following blindly and not creating policy that the is not market driven by individuals. Therefore lets worry only about what is in our control and just wake up 2 people per month and the multiplier effect will do the rest.

    1. Use a barter system with your friends, family, and neighbors. This will increase productivity, decrease the demand for FIAT money and you will not have to pay any taxes.

    2. Enjoy your wealth, but buy wisely. Buy from small local businesses, stay in non-brand name hotels, etc. Empower people with your wealth, instead of flat donations everywhere.

    3. Influence/ convince 2 people about the world and how to empower themselves.

    4. Be patient and see your results unfold one day at a time.


  37. Sam October 15, 2006 10:27 pm

    In response to Jeff (No.34)- I sympathise with your feeling of revenge.. While an act of revenge may bring some immidiate good feeling to a person - it will leave a permanent evil in a perpetual “eye for an eye” scenario..
    Not suggesting any one should “forgive” - just saying that free oneself from the revenging and/or forgiving and get on with a self fulfilling life, like many in the thread have beautifully described.. Cheers

  38. zephyr October 16, 2006 4:05 am

    Sam, I’m with you to a certain extent. Despite some of the stuff I say, I am a very peaceful person and hate fighting. However, I am not one to lie down and be walked all over either. Sometimes you have to deal with people on their terms because those are the only terms they understand. You cannot reason with people that commit genocide in the name of democracy. I’m not necessarily propsing anything, that’s what this thread is for. However, humming and throwing roses around isn’t going to do the trick. Maybe nothing will. We as a human species have relatively short lives, and we just don’t seem to learn from the past. Maybe we need something cataclysmic to finally purge every last evil. Maybe we do need Jesus descending from the clouds to say what the hell are you people doing. Or maybe, it is people from the future who arrrive in 2012. Or maybe it’s the UFO’s. I just know that today, I’m going to do whatever I can to fight the machine. Will I fail? I don’t know, probably. But, I’ll keep trying….a lot really does hang in the balance this time.

  39. Mike October 16, 2006 5:10 am

    The solution to the FED is here and now…the Liberty Dollar…use it and feel the freedom afforded by real money and the escape from inflation.

  40. Cornhusker October 16, 2006 5:36 am


    Get real, people. Our “way of life”, as backwards & materialistic as it is, won’t be going away in our lifetimes. The PTB (Powers That Be) won’t allow it, and yes, they have the power to keep this house of cards from tumbling down. The eCONomy will continue to ebb and flow, drop and jump, but the engine will keep-on chuggin’ along.

    Go ahead, grow your own veggies, it’s probably healthier and mentally therapuetic, but it won’t be necessary. Anyone who advocates & promotes the DNGP (Doom ‘N Gloom Philosophy) is likely lonely and detached from society. I’m not arguing for the SQ (Status Quo), far from it; I’m just giving you all a wake-up call.

    Things aren’t so bad, life is beautiful, wars are only temporary, taxes will stay low, job growth is out there for those who want it, the U.S. economy is still (and will remain for at least 100 years) the safest place to park your wealth.

    Cry about the FED, the GOV’T, your neighbors; but in the end this terrestial life is but the blink of an eye…it’ll be gone before you know it, and what do you have to show for it? Worrying, watching the markets every day, bitching about the government, FED, etc. Here’s some advice:

    Go tell your wife you love her, give her a hug. Go play catch with your son in the backyard, it’ll mean more to him than you’ll ever know. Guys, play dolls with your daughter, you’ll be her hero. Life is too short to be wasted on the internet. Read a book, rake some leaves…LIVE WITH PASSION!

    Good luck & God Bless.

  41. zephyr October 16, 2006 5:48 am

    Didn’t Cornhusker warn of people pretending to be him, since he would be away for awhile? That does not sound like Cornhusker, but it might sound like someone trying to dissuade us from trying to enable change. All this person seems to be missing is a needle and a syringe. “You’re getting sleepy…..”

    Wow, I re-read that post and it freaks me out. Trying to soothe the masses. Where’s the real Cornhusker? Where have you taken him?

  42. esoteric1 October 16, 2006 6:18 am

    ban lawyers/attorneys from election/appointments to the executive and legislative branches of government. allow them only in the judicial branch of government. I may be wrong, but at one time I believe this was the law.

  43. Dr Jane Karlsson October 16, 2006 7:02 am

    Many thanks Michael, and also to Rich and Atash.

    And thanks to larry: I’m actually a PhD, not an MD, and I’m on your side. But not about grains.

    To zephyr: if you want revenge on Kissinger for AIDS, consider the following:

    1. Scientists have recently discovered that HIV replication is promoted by iron and blocked by manganese.

    2. It has also been discovered that the speed of progression to AIDS is quantitatively related to intake of zinc. Excess zinc causes copper deficiency.

    3. As AIDS progresses, so does the body burden of iron. This produces the ‘free radicals’ scientists nowadays believe are responsible for the damage in disease. Manganese counteracts the effects of iron.

    This means that the correct treatment for AIDS is not toxic drugs, but a diet high in copper and manganese. This is also what I’m suggesting makes the ‘magic DNA’ magic, you will remember.

    Got any gay friends? Pass on the word.

    PS If you want documentation, look up ‘iron HIV replication’, ‘manganese blocks HIV replication’ and ‘Alice Tang AIDS zinc’ on Google.

  44. zephyr October 16, 2006 8:06 am

    Strange, Dr Karlsson, why is there no promotion of what you just advocated? Oh right, the drug companies would have nothing to gain by that release of info. What a wonderful, moralistic society we dwell in. If there is a God (which I do believe), He must have tons of patience and compassion. Because if I were God, I would write-off this current batch of humanity as one collossal mistake, just a bad experiment, and start all over again.

  45. larry October 16, 2006 9:01 am

    jane good to hear that…then on a clinical note… grains(an invention of agriculture which has only existed for 10,000 years) were not part of our evolutionary diet,the diet our geneome is designed to assimilate.once grains are removed from gravely ill,premorbid or just unwell folks we can see the body produce a required healing crises…please research insulin and cancer and i think you would conclude grains stimulate insulin which promotes inflamation which is the basis for most unwellness and a precursor to cancers…which are epidemic here….but for realitively well folks(not many left)they tolerate limited whole grains fine..also note that the current FDA food pyramid has been re re-modified to de-emphasis grains…if you research you will find that correct fats do not cause heart disease. but rather constant exposures to grains do, via the body wide inflamation caused by this largely alien and inflamation producing food group…main stream medicine has been telling the heart attack group they groomed, to avoid fats(bad advice) and load up on grains(bad advise)which lead to masive inflamations and served as a progenator for the annuity stream for surgeons from this heart attack nation…heart attack equals big buisness…take a stroll through wall-mart or k-mart look at the shopping karts..look at the people..think….mainstream medicine never tells them that daily routine overloading of all those refined carbs is making the docs rich…carbs have been berry berry good to me…trust me,the cardiologists i know they avoid carb rich diets like the plague cause they know the inflamation they cause kills hearts, plug arteies, and degenerates the body…..also pasturized milk due to the heating produces alien protien molecules that produces massive inflamation…most of our foods are well unrecognizable to our DNA and hence produce inflamation the precursor to disease and decline..that’s all i mean…be careful out there..shop smart…if a corporation produces it chances are strong it is cheap food suffs of poor quality,contaminated with legal poisons and nutrient deficient and calorie rich….but very profitable…be careful

  46. Rich October 16, 2006 9:05 am

    Larry and Jane,

    How do you feel about the Human Genome Project, the GenoGraphic Project and other associated DNA research projects, including using DNA testing for familyDNA reasons - looking up your family members?

    Is there anything to worry about doing these tests, what is the potential for abuse once your DNA is an in a database.

    Cheers Rich

  47. muleskinner October 16, 2006 10:09 am

    Graffiti in downtown Seattle ca. 1981: “The Needle is Goddess, Space is the Place.” It’s all in your head.

    We’ve got it all, and yet, we’ve haven’t much at all.

    Microwave meals aren’t much. Packaged foods thrown together at a restaurant isn’t eating. Fertilize your yard, water it, mow it. Do it all over again and again. It ain’t much, when you think about it.

    The least of our brethren have more. It is better to give than to receive.

    “It ain’t the car, it’s the driver”

    Sorry for using the word ‘ain’t.’

  48. muleskinner October 16, 2006 10:18 am
  49. Cornhusker October 16, 2006 11:26 am


    I belong to Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. The ONLY thing that can unite “mankind” is the Love of Jesus Christ and the Grace of God.

    Followers of Christ are at a crossroads, historically speaking. Muleskinner, there is no reason to try and “understand” violence as violence is nothing but a by-product of man’s inherently sinful ways…nothing more.

    Jesus is the light and the way. Seek Him and He will be there…ask Him for help and He will bring you comfort…it’s so simple.

  50. Exasperated October 16, 2006 12:47 pm

    Yeah, let’s all hold hands, sing “KumByYah”, buy the world a Coke, and live in harmony. Look, long before capitalism developed, long before gold was used as money, there was war, hatred and oppression. If anyone thnks the many flaws in the human nature are going away soon if we all just click our heels together, I have a some 4th Ward real estate to sell them in N’Awlins. Criminy, I’ve been to bull sessions in college dorm rooms that weren’t as dumb assed as some of the comments on this blog. Some people need to get a life offline.

    Now, yes, there’s been some good advice on this thread, like “get out of debt and stay out”, live beneath your means, take care of family no matter what. But the combination of old hippie rhetoric & pet conspiracy theories just makes me laugh. Read some history, for crying out loud. Read about John Law and the King of France. That’s the Missiissippi bubble, for you slow learners, and one of the few good things to come out of it was N’awlins. One of the bad things to come out of it, I believe, was the South Seas bubble over in England and several wars. Then when you’re convinced that kings are the problem, read about the Assignats and the First Republic of France. Woops, they screwed up worse than John Law! Then, when you’re convinced it’s central banks that are the problem, read about the US 1830’s canal-building and state-bank bubble. Woops, they screwed up, too!

    Read the real history. Start with “Madness of Crowds” by Macauley. Find “Fiat Money in France” by White and “Manias, panics and crashes” by Kindelberger. Then face the reality that any government, or economic system, humans are involved in is gonna be imperfect. It will have flaws, imbalances, weak spots. Some kind of lender of last resort is gonna be needed, but it better be ultra conservative and ready to take the punchbowl away — NOT a drunkard’s pal like Greenspan/Bernanke. Recognize that greed isn’t unique to Wall Street wizards, us ordinary people get greedy, too, and greed is part of EVERY bubble, including the one we are in right now. Do you think it was greedy Wall Street wizards that bid up the price of housing in Las Vegas? Was it the Bilderbergers that decided to get rich flipping condos in San Diego? Did Skull ‘n Bones force all those developers to build condos in northern Virginia just outside of DC? Remember, the builders are in business to make money selling houses, and they responded to the demand they saw — so what if a quarter of the buyers in some markets were flippers, you say?

    NO! No, no, no! Ordinary human people, just like YOU, got greedy and decided to get something for nothing. Yes, I know that stupid lending policies helped it; just wait until we start finding out about all the mortgage fraud that’s been going on for years. Yes, I know the stupid fire-hose of liquidity put out by the unConstitutional Federal Reserve Bank has made ths bubbe into a truly grotesque monster. But don’t kid yourself that going back to gold and silver money would eliminate recessions or depressions, because there were plenty of those int he 19th century in America alone. Because there were plenty of people who figured that if one canal or railroad was good, then ten had to be a whole lot mo’ betteah. So they overbuilt, and boomed, and busted. Just like us today.

    See, there are constants in human beings, so long as we are the embodiment of our ancestors genes; we are nasty and nice, we are greedy and altruistic, we are violent and pacifistic. So I frankly would urge all of you to start going to a decent church that’s helping poor and out of luck folks one-on-one directly, quit fretting about conspiracy theories, take care of your own family first and then look to your neighbors immediately afterwards, get out of debt and live beneath your means, learn how to garden food not as some ultra survival thing but as a means to burn off the cortisol, and stop dreaming of some great, glorious paradise on earth. There ain’t gonna be a paradise on earth, but you can sweep your own doorstep as Goethe suggested.

    And don’t try to predict when the market’s going to crash, either. That clearly is a risky business.

  51. muleskinner October 16, 2006 2:16 pm

    Exasperated, you forgot Tulip Mania. I’ve got my money on the Mets to beat the Cardinals. I hope to get rich. Just kidding.

    It’s hard for people to get along in this world, that’s for sure.

    More war certainly isn’t going to solve any problems whatsoever.

    Old Adams duking it out forever and ever isn’t the way to go.

    Jesus Christ Almighty laid down his life, bared his soul to a vindictive crowd of Old Adams out to get him.

    Killing him was better than letting him live. They didn’t like a lowly carpenter’s son pointing out the error of their ways. A disconcerting sob who had the audacity to tell it like it is, and they didn’t like to hear it. His persecutors were an angry, bloodthirsty mob.

    I don’t want to be a pious, pompous Buddha; I’m not the most reverent cat on the planet. I make fun of the Pope in his mitred hat. I’m a sinner who doesn’t throw stones.

    It is true today. The US government would rather war on the Muslim world than admit any fault of wrong doing. It just doesn’t look good to admit you have made a mistake. The same is true of the radical fundamentalist Muslims. They would rather believe that they have no faults and prefer to find fault with the Great Satan, America.

    There is a common ground out there somewhere.

    It is time to find it, not throw up your hands and admit defeat. Humans can live without war.

    Writing down all of the faults of humanity into a book and then redeeming them like a book of coupons is really only a cop out.

    Killing people by the millions puts you on a hellbound train.

    It’s time for a change.

  52. larry October 16, 2006 2:43 pm

    exasperated…excellent diatribe…i agree with your examples and conclusions…except one….i have studied other cultures…unfortunately for us,you are describing us….other cultures(non-western)…have patterns and enculturation that, to say the least,is not as toxically aggressive and exploitive of the natural world and other humans as are westerners…unfortunately,most have been pounded into extinction by us…so,i believe sufficient examples of other gentler cultures exist to dispute the conclusion that this beast is programmed into the human beings gene structure…

  53. ronandreas October 16, 2006 5:09 pm

    The last two posts contain much wisdom. Uruguay for instance, forms no alliances and maintains good relations with it’s neighbors. No wars since it’s independence almost 200 years ago.Compare that with the U.S. All in all, the modern world is more violent than how we evolved. I know some anthropologists have suggested that primitive murder rates may have been as high as our war casualties(per capita), but they fail to factor in our murder rates. Which are also high. It actually takes propaganda and coercion to obtain our present sordid level of violence. Try reading War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning by Chriss Hedges for more on this subject.

  54. Turk October 16, 2006 5:18 pm

    Gold as money could be viewed as the bane of mankind. I’m not contending that gold is not money, if it weren’t, it wouldn’t be locked away in the vaults of the central banks. The thing is gold and gold backed currency no longer makes sense in this heavily populated world and perhaps those who are ‘conspiring’ to keep the world in a fiat money system are wiser than many give them credit for. A federal reserve system that is private and not under the direct thumb of the government is essential to make the modern system function. Could you imagine if government entities had the power of the fed? How much more of a mess could a government entity make of the system? How could you keep direct political pressure and corruption out of the fiat money system if it was entirely under the thumb of the government? Abolishing the fed and going back to some kind of gold backed money is the king of the worst ideas that has been floating around various internet and other channels of communication for sometime now. The argument put forth in order to sway the undecided is usually: “your dollar is essentially worthless, it is backed by absolutley nothing.” This is hogwash of the highest con man order. Our money is absolutely backed by everything in the world’s market place, period. It’s value appreciates and depreciates based on all of the dynamics in the marketplace. The fiat money system allows the masses the work for secure finances, feed and shelter there families without being slaves to bits of silver and gold. There are over three billion people on Earth and there is no possibility that we can all use silver and gold as money in the market. You guys who continually bash the fiat system are typical of those who think about what might be best for your personal circumstance/desires and not what benefits everyone. There are many places where almost anyone can see we could make changes for the better, abolishing the fed is not one of them. The system we have is good, it needs to be tweaked, here and there. Lets not throw out the baby with the bath water.

  55. nestor October 16, 2006 6:51 pm

    please. the fiat money system is a joke. sadly, the only way commodity money will ever be used again, is a complete collapse of the current system. of course we can all use commodities are money, be there 20 billion people.

  56. surfdude October 16, 2006 7:28 pm

    Great stuff! The juices are flowing.
    Exasperated brings a good history lesson. But read the Bible - mankind has been cheating, killing and trying to control one another since Adam went astray. Not only do we learn that, but it flat out says that there will be wars and rumors of wars right up till the end. There will be no peace for humanity as a whole, but individually there can be peace with the Creator.

    And that brings me to what Muleskinner says - Peace can be achieved through Christ. But be careful. As much as their is corruption, lies and deceit in the Secular realm, there is probably more in the so called “Christian” world. There are many Jesus’ and all but one are false and lies. What to do? Trust a church? NO! how about a preacher? Are you kidding? Why would you, when you have the source book. Go read for yourselves. Forget everything that you have heard or have been taught. So many people, including myself, have been so turned off by frauds and the “self righteous” folks out there talking about this and that. When I read the Bible (which I continue to do) I was shocked at the following 1) How much trouble we are all in and 2) how many lies I have been told by so many people and 3) how many people who call themselves christians have no idea what the Bible teaches about Christ.

    What’s more, it’s the most humbling thing you can read. Don’t have the time to read the whole thing and check it out? Check out http://www.wherewillyouspendeternity.com You can not read that and feel self righteous.

  57. Turk October 16, 2006 7:52 pm

    “Please, the fiat money system is a joke.” Sorry but you’ll have to do better than that to discredit a system that has worked well for decades and continues to work.

  58. larry October 16, 2006 8:08 pm

    surfdude…checkin in…i’m addicted to the idea flow…thanks!…you gave me an epipheny…AUTHENTICITY…look up the definition…the western cultures are unauthentic and from that premise EVERYTHING is corrupted and devalued…our beliefs are sold out by phoney priests…our money is devalued by money changers hunting for our interest…politicians decieve us insearch of unbridled pursuits of influence…doctors sell mysterious pills that never make us healthy…you see,,,,,others do bad stuff to others because we allow it…. it is all others’ outward directed other party behavior…the only honesty is between you and your spirit…the rest is pretense and defense mechanisms and reactive activity and leads to a departure from self…so,we exist in societies but thrive when left to solitude…we have a conundrum here…the perfect society would be populated by purely inwardly directed individuals..they would in synchronicity with self and be incapable of being unauthentic to others…the lies would then be extinguished,forever and forever…freedom comes from within all the individuals being in tune with an honesty of self…the more knoble each member of the society is then by definition that culture will on average become that much more true and by default that much less corrupt…it begs the question…how does a culture so depleted of inward and autonymous individuals begin to creat a critical mass that creates an explosion of this behavior…i leave that to the next…i do not know the answer

  59. surfdude October 16, 2006 8:27 pm

    Yes larry. We (humans) are made up of 3 distinct parts.
    1) Physical - there have been a number of posts with good ideas to protect and maintain our physical health NATURALLY, not the path of the pill pushers.
    2) Mental - obviously we are all exercising this aspect of ourselves with ideas and thought provoking concepts. Keep your mind from being controlled and manipulated by the evil and corrupt powers that be.
    3) Spiritual - the most neglected aspect. Here is where the real battle is. People trying to sway you this way or that, all to controll you through group think and herding. Talk about confusion! Cut through the bull and go to the source book (Bible) and have a one-on-one meeting with your Maker.

    Only when you deal with all three aspects of yourself honestly will you be humbled by the fragility of your health, the limits of your mind and the utter dependance on a merciful and glorious God.

  60. Dave in Fla October 16, 2006 8:32 pm

    Societal Goals:
    1. Start with a revenue-neutral new tax on gasoline ($2 per gallon) to be offset with a corresponding $2 reduction in federal income tax for each gallon purchased. This would counter the oil companies’ 100 years of taxpayer funded military adventures that serve to keep oil prices just low enough to prevent alternative energy development.
    2. end corporate personhood and break-up the multi-nationals
    3. Bring the US Congress back to the local level as originally conceived by expanding the House of Representatives to one rep per 50,000 citizens. At current US pop, that would mean 6000 Congressman (and cut their pay accordingly!)

  61. Dr Jane Karlsson October 17, 2006 2:19 am

    Hi Michael, wanna hear my comments on the Fed and banking?

    1. The Fed shouldn’t charge interest. Of course, you are right. I remember 20 years ago saying to an old friend who is now a banker, ‘the interest rate should not be higher than the inflation rate’. He thought I was mad, of course, and in a way he was right: how can the banking system function if it doesn’t charge interest?

    But I meant, it’s interest that makes the money supply grow. If you charge interest, and don’t let inflation do its proper job of bringing the value of the money down again, you end up with an awful lot of money. You will run out of people to lend it to, and then you get things like derivatives, hedge funds, speculative bubbles, and a lot of very nervous politicians who think you can fix things by nuking people.

    2. Fiat money. Of course, it was much better on the gold standard, if only because you didn’t get trade imbalances. I can’t remember exactly how it works, but it means that if you have a trade surplus, your currency automatically goes up, and if you have a deficit, it goes down.

    You’d have thought, wouldn’t you, that you could arrange something similar using interest rates, if you’re anyway using them to ‘control the economy’. All you have to do it raise them when you have a surplus, and lower them when you have a deficit.

    People actually do exactly the opposite, at least here in the UK. All through the 1980s I watched open-mouthed as every time we had a trade deficit, already-high interest rates would be raised still further, ‘to stop the economy from overheating’. The trade deficit got steadily worse as our industry got weaker, and now it’s nearly as big as yours and impossible to fix.

    3. The Fed chairman isn’t elected. No he isn’t, because he’s supposed to be an expert. Like Paul Volcker, who is generally considered a Very Big Hero because he abolished inflation single-handedly in 1980 by doubling interest rates ‘because Thatcher had done it’, I heard him say in an interview. He wasn’t asked whether he had foreseen the enormous expansion of the money supply and debt that would result, but he was asked about the Third World. Had he foreseen the Third World debt problem? No, he said. For God’s sake, he’s a banker, what does the Third World have to do with him?

  62. muleskinner October 17, 2006 5:56 am

    I’ve got some beads and trinkets to trade for Manhattan. I could create a new Manhattan, if not a new world. It’s been done before, it can be done again. Talk about a fiat money system that worked.

    Purdy good deal. I’d make it to the top at Trump University.

  63. Sapiens October 17, 2006 7:30 am

    There seems to be a lot of people that think currency is a storage of value, it’s not. Inflation dictates it’s not.

    We need to expand our vocabulary to properly define what is Money.

    Although Gold has many characteristics that makes it suitable to use as Money, it’s not money. Its use as an instrument of industry dictates it is not true Money.

    Then there is the matter of the Unit of Accounting, how you account for something relative to something else is also another separate concept.

    The concepts seem very difficult to understand, but truly are not. Think it over and read some of the classics and see what I mean.

    What the Fed successfully did was to remove the storage of value from our currency by demonetizing Gold.


  64. 49er October 17, 2006 8:14 am

    qrswave says:

    institute interest-free money, abolish speculation

    Interest free money would do nothing but induce speculation, since it is interest free there is little risk.

  65. larry October 17, 2006 8:17 am

    also…most of the kinder less disturbing cultures i mentioned were in general more agrarian and isolated from others…it seems once mankind hits a certain population the local carrying capacity becomes insufficient to support the locals…the expansion to other areas for resources leads to conflct with other groups…survival wars ensued and an alpha male dominant ruling hegemony is ushered in for everyones mutual protection…people rally behind this protection for mutually assured protection and survival….politics and elitism is born….we are basically “planet of the apes”…again FEAR and HORROR are flip sides of much of human existence…fear of others destroying your group and the horror of when it actually does occur…RESOURCES generally seem to be the core issue…makes sense,humans are fragile,so without massive amounts of resources and organization to keep it all going it goes to oblivion…an other conundrum…OTHERS…cause us fear dread and all to frequently horror…we learn to fear others, but are in angry conflict that we need others to survive?…is this an imperfect impass to the whole condition of being a vulnerable clawless,toothless,human?….sounds like being human could indeed be frightening to most and produce many distressing,self preserving behaviors that could be viewed as detremental to an others pursuit of happiness…quite a thing it is to be human

  66. tz October 17, 2006 8:18 am

    Hypocracy is the compliment vice pays to virtue, but you should live out your beliefs - actually you do LIVE your CORE beliefs, although you might admit of a better angel of your nature with your voice.

    I would note a new book by Lou Dobbs - the War on the Middle Class - shows that he gets that there isn’t a difference between the Democrats and the Republicans (I typically say Firebird v.s. Camaro). Same with Buchanan. Yet they aren’t quite libertarian, but like the apple commercial, the first thing needed to be done is to smash the droning screen (Or put out the Witch’s fire, as in C. S. Lewis “The Silver Chair”).

    There are already many apathetic voters. Enough to swing things if they could get motivated - for good or ill. They might vote in even more fascism, or vote for liberty. It depends on whether they accept they are a co-dependent to something which will never change.

  67. Turk October 17, 2006 9:05 am

    I still haven’t read anything on this thread that gives solid reasoning as to why the FED should be abolished and how returning to a gold standard would improve the worlds system of commerce. There have been many illusory correlations made. Trade imbalances are always used as an ‘evil’ example. Trade imbalances have always existed in commerce. They are not always bad and most often nessecary.

  68. qrswave October 17, 2006 9:50 am

    49er said: “Interest free money would do nothing but induce speculation, since it is interest free there is little risk.”


    Little risk for who? The borrower still has to pay back the principal - it’s not free, you know!

    Besides, speculation would be abolished - i.e., NOT ALLOWED. Prices would be measured according to REAL COSTS - i.e., the labor plus the natural resources required to get to market. None of this speculative trading bullsh*t.

  69. Walt October 17, 2006 10:25 am

    The Fed’s management of the money should be suspect. It was created in 1913. The purchasing power of the dollar has diminished from 100 cents in 1913 to less than 5 cents in 2006. Is that a respectful record?
    I must also note that the quality of the posts to this site have also deteriorated. The early ones proposed 3 to 4 ideas on how to solve the problems and possibly mitigate the damage to our financial health and personal freedoms. Most all of the later ones are either rants, opinions or diatribes.
    Let’s get back to the spirit of the forum and present a range of specific ideas on solutions to the freedom theft and quit waxing eloquent with petty attacks and opinions founded in personal political philosophy.

  70. turk October 17, 2006 10:38 am

    So you want to get in the last word on the fed and then call a halt to the ‘diatribe? You must be a politician. Purchasing power in 1913 dollars is an argument so far removed from the reality of today that no one living in the present could possibly take it seriously as a legitimate point of debate. This thread deteriorated long before any opposition to the ‘abolish the fed’ theorists posts were placed here. Perhaps the administrator should halt the thread and begin a new one with his original thought and begin the censoring of the posts that aren’t bearing the intended fruit of his brainstorming desires.

  71. zephyr October 17, 2006 11:47 am

    Thanks turk, you must be a schoolteacher, or a third world dictator. While I do agree the thread is straying from it’s original intent, we don’t need you talking down to us from your perch.

    The fed is a private bank controlling a nations currency. Umm, right off the top that sounds like a poor idea. While it is true if they operated wisely upon divesting from gold in the early 70’s, then things would be ok, actually even beneficial, you have to admit their greed hasn’t allowed them to do a very bang-up job. If you think they are, then you need too share some of that weed, because it’s obviously powerful stuff.

    Can we go back to the gold standard? I don’t know….Pandora’s box has been opened, tough to gather up all that smoke and put it back in place. However, the current system is out of control, and all the excess liquidity sloshing around has only caused bubble upon bubble in a neverending search for profit at all costs, and things like derivatives and hedge funds, which are really just wacky and dangerous ways to play with currency. Play, that’s right, because it has become a game rigged by the banks to make themselves rich beyond belief, something that could have never occurred with a legitimate form of currency with limits. That’s why there was a split from gold….so there would be no limits.

    The markets are no different than going to a casino, except in this case you don’t have to use your own money to play. Wow, that’s great, if you’re already rich or a banker. Turk, it’s legalized stealing. Billionaires increase in number daily while the general public goes backward. Or maybe that’s what you want……until the day when the public becomes totally screwed and desperate. And when that happens, it won’t be pretty. Except I’m guessing by that time the ultrarich will have high-tailed it out of town.

    The Almighy $ has become the new God to worship. Abolish the Fed!!! Bring back some sanity.

  72. Makia October 17, 2006 11:59 am

    The Hundredth Monkey.

    This is a concept by which mass consciousness changes. It references a few colonies of monkeies who lived on seperate islands in the South Pacific somewhere. A dude who wrote a book about nuclear non-proliferation popularized the (true)story. The monkies were taken care of by some caretakers. A man would bring potatoes of some sort to the monkies each day.
    One day, one of the monkies on one of the islands took her potatoes down to the water and washed them before she ate them. She went alone at first, but after some time of this, her close family started following her down to the water with the potatoes to wash them before eating. After this went on for a while, more of the monkies would go with this group, while the rest ate right where they got the food. After a while a bunch, but less than half of the monkeies engaged in the ritual, but then it was most. On a certain day, the man who brought the food saw that all of the monkies took thier food down to the water. That same day, on the other two islands a couple of the monkies took thier potatoes to the water to wash them. Eventually all the monkies on each island engaged in the ritual. How ’bout that?

    This story reminds me about how humans started cultivating fire. Modern folks beleive that somewhere some smart and enterprising caveman discovered the techniques and taught them to his family. Over time then, humans the world over eventually were taught how to make fire. The archaelogical record indicates something much more “magical.” The record shows that humans all over the world started using fire _at the same time_! This also reminds me that while Newton is credited with inventing calculus, he had counterparts in other parts of Europe (and probably the world) who “invented” (or discovered) it at the same time.

    The details of these stories is unimportant, though I’m sure books have been written. What’s important here is that the essence of how we are all connected in undeniable, indeed, it’s common-sense.

    This is why living with personal responsibility is so vital to personal health and prosperity, as well as we-as-a-race. While I have great admiration for the potential of the human spirit, most bodies which they occupy fail to see the same wonder. I wonder that even in the holiest of societies this is the case.

    The difference, to put it simply, is embodying the essense of “the eyes of a child.” When less developed folks can use these eyes then peace can reign.

    If there is a great economic collapse, then I have a few thoughts that you all who are interested in health and prosperity may be able to put to good use.

    Firstly, be a good person. Secondly, learn to defend yourself from not good people. Eat well, exercise well. With this you can then pursue a much greater potential than a brilliant person in a sick body, or a strong person who doesn’t understand his roots. Also, recognize that no man is ever an island. We need each other no matter how wise or strong we are. Wisdom not put to good use rots on the vine and this kind of so-called wisdom should actually be called loneliness or idiocy. Strength not turned to good is sickness.

    Violence is sometimes necessary. I have spent many years learning ways to kill people in the name of health. I would never use this knowledge for the purposes of ego, and indeed that intent would have stopped my practice long ago. True self-defense is very violent, but the impetus is on survival. This is all very important IMHO. I desire to use my body and mind for the good of humanity - to that end I am strong and healthy. If I were attacked by a violent person, should I be peaceful and let him hurt me? What if that violent person was after my wife or children? Should a healthy, peaceful person stand by so as not to engage in violence? I would argue that this kind of pacifism and impotence has allowed the government, the banks, and the corporations to get away with exploitation and murder for a long time.
    One last thought on self-defense. Proper self defense is all about timing, which is much about peace and relaxation. Violent and weak people will perish by violence. Healthy and wise people have a much greater chance of seeing the prosperous path, which I would strongly argue, is not death.

    So be strong folks, wether collapse or not. Take care of your selves, and your families. If you must die in the name of truth and prosperity, then you will die with dignity. But my biggest piece of advice to adress the mass consciousness is to be clever, and do everything you need to do to teach true health and prosperity until an old age. Perhaps most important of all: TEACH THESE THINGS TO THE CHILDREN, so that the next evolution doesn’t end up like the last one. We shouldn’t trust people who are proud or greedy.

    Finally, maybe the future, while it is malleable, is more written than we’d like to beleive. Based on my study of history, change tends to heppen slowly.

    “Do your best.”

  73. Mike October 17, 2006 12:22 pm

    Prices in a productive society will go down…unless that society uses fiat currency to take from the producers and give to the non-producers. Inflation of the money supply in a fiat system is what causes prices to increase…thereby keeping the slaves enslaved. The bottom line…fiat money allows the bankers and governments to steal from the productive members of society without using a gun or other means of violence. Not a bad deal if you are a banker or government rep.

  74. larry October 17, 2006 12:47 pm

    so in summary…my 3 personal actions would be…1)stay calm 2)advance peace 3) nurture people..societies focus 1)being equitable and just 2)open and transparent governance 3)listen and become responsive to the people it serves…..a large reservation over all is that i think it will take huge generational traumas and lessons for us to become desperate enough to reach for a truely better way…sorry,i just do not think humans on average have lost their primitive instincts or been given an environment allowing them distance from those instincts…hence,on average i think fear and greed and survival will remain the fundemental drivers of most people and societies they create….we are in for a long winter kids…spring is a ways off but it will eventually arrive…just not yet

  75. muleskinner October 17, 2006 1:12 pm

    Mike, taxes were so high in the Roman Empire that people actually quit working, it wasn’t worth it. The same thing will happen here too. It’s deja vu all over again.

    This speaks volumes.

  76. Sapiens October 17, 2006 2:27 pm


    What a superb post!

    Truth is Truth.

    Although ignorant of the fact, it does not change the fact; Truth is Truth.

    My pleasure to have witnessed and read your words.

    Thank you,


  77. gemstocks October 17, 2006 5:42 pm

    For all those people who are down on the FED. I read there was 70,000 US Dollars in circulation for each ounce of gold in Fort Knox. Therefore, the proper price of gold in US Dollars is $70,000 per ounce. Anybody wanna buy my gold? I’ll take US $s for it, 70,000 per ounce.

    For all those people who are down on modern medicine. Back in the 60s I was what they called a beatnik, then later it changed to hippie. I’m still what ever I was back then but at age 62 it’s not very important. But back then I was having a ball. I met a lot of warm and willing young women. One day I woke up, went to the bathroom, and almost screamed from the pain of peeing puss. I went to a doctor and got a penicillin shot. ten days later I was back in action.

    You can have your Federal Reserve but don’t touch modern medicine unless you have something better. I don’t want my grandchildren catching that bad stuff and chewing some herb to get over it. And remember, most of those stone age people died in their 30s, old and toothless, if in fact, they were lucky enough to survive childhood.

  78. larry October 17, 2006 6:08 pm

    gemstock…chronic systemic candidiasis is epidemic due to the candy jar dispensing of antibiotics….read the noble awarded work of michnokov.et al…antibiotics have helped and allowed positive outcomes..however in general they have contributed to a nearly nation wide case of dysbiosis and the associated chronic mild to debilitating symptoms associated with it….virtually every mass medicine approach has a serious risk and that is why the general well being of americans and those on western life styles is declining as per government reports…which under report the deleterious effects of allopathic medicine…sorry it is not apparent…i see the effects every day…it is sad and appalling…yes i would rx..antibiotic for a STD..i would also rx strong probiotics with it…this never occurs in retail medicine…the medical schools have sanitized the curricullum so that students are not explained the serious rampant side effects that may be caused by antibiotic use…also when infant mortality,which has been significantly reduced,is removed from longevity numbers,it does not appear that life span for adults are on average increasing…in fact,that span when factoring out acute injury survival and infants and children is beginning to slip..as per recent NIH records…don’t shoot the messenger…if you could see and hear the reports of patients under standard western allopathic medical care you would understand how undermining to long term health it really is…the problem is the very ill are so overwhelmed as to become invisible and they vanish..poof..no one really sees the millions of unhealthy americans degenerating of poor health and sold pills as they decline…

  79. muleskinner October 17, 2006 6:30 pm

    As the number of cases of diphtheria, tuberculosis, and smallpox decreased dramatically with the use of new medications and medical advances, the number of malignant neoplasms increased.

    Not because there was none before, but only because more people survived the other maladies with the benefit of modern medicine.

    Tobacco is the most addictive substance known to man. The sheer numbers of the amount of manufactured cigarettes is testament to that fact. Lung cancer was a rare occurrence prior to manufactured cigarettes. Your own hand rolled cigarettes had you smoking fewer of them. Although, I had an uncle who never smoked cigarettes, and yet died of lung cancer. He handled plenty of farm chemicals. Maybe there is a correlation there too.

    Surviving in the twenty-first century is fraught with danger.

    One of my favorites: This is the day that the Lord hath made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.

    We really can’t create a new world at all. It’s a new day each and every day. Draw a circle on the ground, stand inside of it, and you’ll have the universe.

    All you really have to do is believe. The Good Lord won’t make you rich, but he won’t let you starve.

  80. larry October 17, 2006 6:50 pm

    again ,infectious diseases are a different catagory from what has replaced that as the primary threat today…now the threat is chronic illness caused from the unhealthy corporate food supply,life styles,environmental threats in cumulative assault and compounded by an allopathic medical paradym that does not have health at it’s core but the management of the symptoms of ill health..which does not make you healthy and so the model leads to premature aging and degeneration…also…corporate tobacco knew that the mold and sugar they sprayed on the curring tobbacco spiked toxic loads of afflavotoxins …this mold was known by them to be highly carcinogenic…but the product had nice pugent complex moldy flavor. that the public liked the taste off…big corporate tobacco engineered cancer on a stick by growing afflavotoxins they knew caused cancers but enhanced flavor and sales….factoid,the largest contributor to longevity has never been medicine or health care…public health measures i.e.clean water,adequate sanitation,ventilated buiding codes,hygiene standards for person and food have always been and remain the primary deterent to unwellness…the largest gains in longevity alwaye relate to basic public health measures

  81. Makia October 17, 2006 6:56 pm

    I want to clarify my previous post, to answer the questions that might be asked, “What does this talk of violent people have to to with economics?” It may seem disconnected, but to me it is very much related.

    We’ve spent a lot of time on these posts talking about human nature, economic systems and entities, the problems and the solutions. Obviously we can approach these things from many perspectives. When I speak of violent people, it is a reference to how many people see the world.

    In “martial arts,” lots of people think that impressive techniques and scoring points is the goal. In financial markets, a majority of players also think in this way and play “games,” to score a few points and impress their friends with neat techniques. But the average player in the financial markets can be likened to the average martial artist: no respect for the people who _really mean business_. See, these people can take you right out of the game. This kind of intent doesn’t give a dang about fancy tricks or scoring points, only domination. Defense against these kind of people requires self-discipline and developing great timing among other things. These things are important to develop on a personal level, no matter what circumstances may bring. Of course, we should always always have fun, too, and focus on thankfulness.

    When “normal” people fight, there’s a distinct pattern that doesn’t happen when someone who “really means business” goes to town. When normal people fight, they think there are rules. I punch, then you block. Then you hit, and I block. When 95% of people train in martial arts, they learn more and more ways to block, and more and more ways to attack, but the sequence stays predictable. Somewhere, someone’s bound to make a mistake, but basically the person who is stronger and will win after a few back-and-forths. Even worse is people whose main idea of violence comes from movies or tv. There it doesn’t matter who is stronger or faster, the good guy always wins whichever way some writer decides it to be played out.

    That’s how most people think of money, too. That there’s rules, and even the biggest players must have good techniques to win. Or even if you’re the little guy, if you know the right moves you can take a big guy down, maybe like in the movies.

    That’s not how the violent or the greedy work.

    Violent people know how to fight, even when they don’t know a single technique. Put very simply, they will punch; and when you are blocking that punch, they’re punching you again. and again. and again. Training in “normal” martial arts TAKES AWAY from a persons ability to survive against this, as quite a few “black belts” who’ve gotten their butts kicked in the street will attest.

    In financial markets, the story is the same. First of all, the stronger player almost ALWAYS WINS. Many also know that they can punch and punch and punch until they have dominated. We will see this at the onset of the next recession once again - most of the wealthy will remain wealthy, at the expense of just about everybody else.

    To those of you who do not see the problem with fiat currency or the FED, its basically that the people at the top of the fake pyramid develop OVERPOWERING leverage over ANYBODY, even governments themselves, at the expense of EVERYBODY ELSE’S hard work. Not only do the People slowly get beat over the head with inflation, but also with the income taxes we pay to bail out the financial giants (to keep them giants instead of allowing survival of the fittest to run its course). Ah, many of these econo-politco-socio issues are intertwined. A fine arguement is that people get what we deserve if we allow this system to continue in ignorance; but my point is that to overcome the influences of violence and greed and indeed prosper, you must understand the nature of greedy and/or violent people. Then to TRULY PROSPER you must learn where REAL SPEED AND INTERNAL POWER come from. Hint: abandon using greed and violence, but accept that they are indeed out there.

    At this stage, it seems that many of the financial and corporate giants (and the FED which is in bed with other giants _and_ controls money supply and interest rates) that the People have put so much faith in are idiots. Look at every crash in history, they aren’t caused because small players are greedy, it’s cause the supposedly genius giants are. But many of them will eat eachother soon.
    The stock market is ridiculous right now. The inverted yeild curve is signaling a recession at best. Next to that, how are housing stocks going up when the companies themselves are admitting they are in for it in the next couple of years? How are Ford and GM going up when they are going bankrupt and losing market share? These are just a couple small examples. The movers and shakers who are causing these moves are supposed to be smart. These moves are just not prudent by any standard. The moves are making money in some kind of short run, but this looks much more like a climax than any kind of strong economy “for the People.” Maybe there is more to this market than meets the eye, I’m very curious to find out.

    This is the nature of violence and greed. The violent don’t play by the rules. The violent take advantage of every weakness they know. My advice, again, is to not be duped - to be strong and vigilant - and teach as much of this as you can to some children.

    Move to localisation, away from globalisation. Make the water and air “the commons.” Create a death penalty for corporations.

    Pay attention to China. Pay attention to violent Muslims and all intolerants. Very difficult times may be ahead. In order to try and avoid economic collapse, the U.S, gov’t might tryand go to another war, at the least to distract the populous. That’s not to say I trust the communists or the radical muslims. When it comes down to it, the financial problems in our country where the really rich are getting enormously richer at the expense of the hard-working is a world-wide phenomena. To that end, maybe there’s a reason why U.S. bonds sell like hotcakes even from a bankrupt gov’t. Maybe the world’s financial officers are dumb, or maybe they’re _trying_ to bankrupt us. Or maybe simple financial mommentum will keep it all going. . . what do I know?

    Be the hundredth monkey.

  82. Makia October 17, 2006 7:05 pm

    One more thing. With all this serious talk, the most important thing is to have fun, and be thankful. It’s not _too_ hard to realize how all of this complexity is awe-inspiring, humbling, and the best path through is to truly give thanks and live with love and opportunity in your heart. Then to teach by example. What a great society it will be. . .

  83. larry October 17, 2006 8:37 pm

    i like your train of thoughts makia…yes,the violence…that deceptive unforeseeable twisted unethical unanticipated action can defeat the greatest and most disciplined fighter…people just cannot fathom the degrees or malignancy of the violence that is leveled at them…i am shocked everyday…yes,the spin and lies have transcended into the realm of violence…the suppossed aggressive “mob” has been checkmated by a much more virulent gentlemen ruling elite…their violence reminds of the scenes from V for Vendetta.involving william hurt acting as the sociopathic violent dictator at large…i hope this internet and communities like this can help form a base and stabilize long enough for recovery to ensue…i am guardedly optomistic,but the turning point is in the future, not now…makia,i sense i am older than you and that may color my personal outlook…have seen a bit much more than i can easily express…most of the bad stuff that has occured to folks has been avoidable and that is hard for me to accept,,,i believe we will pull a rabbit out of the hat and and salvage this this planets experient of man’s arrogance of dominion over all…the tests necessary to humble us sufficiently to be ready to hear that message is playing out,,,,in the mean time everyone do your best to educate yourselves on all matter far and wide and be wary of experts…truth may be the rarest and most valuable commodity on this earth…if you find it invest yourself in it

  84. surfdude October 17, 2006 8:56 pm

    Makia - you know of what you speak. Readers will gain great insight by studying what he says. My oldest child is an acomplished black belt in Tai Kwon Do. I happen to work closely with the military, and exposed my daughter to people highly trained in techniques to control and efficiently kill opponents. She was amazed. Violent people use your own goodness against you. Martial artists are trained to react to rational and “law abiding” actions - Violent people proact with overwhelming persistant “unlawful” tactics, catching their opponents unaware (because they do not want to see evil). The really strong, violent yet controled people I have come in contact with NEVER reveal their this tactic. They will act as though they play by the rules. My daughter learned a great deal from this lesson. Martial artists are trained never to initiate violence. In contrast, violent people always take the decisive unexpected action.

    I encouraged my daughter, as well as my other 5 children, to be able to defend themselves. Never to initiate violence. But it is a mistake not to understand violent people, and their tactics - even study them. This way you will not live in a fantasy land of “everyone is good”, and up a casualty, either financialy or physically. And you can protect yourself from their power. That is why I advocate that everyone STAY OUT OF DEBT.

    What is important is to understand that in the spiritual world, evil has been conquered. The judgement, however, has not yet been executed. In the physical world, we must protect ourselves and our loved ones. Pretending evil and violent people can be reasoned with or taimed is insane.

  85. larry October 17, 2006 9:01 pm

    i am too tired of typing…but for those of you that GET that austrian economics is real and sound and balanced in its’ approach to economics…and that this man made invention called monetarism is derivative alienated fiat manmade made-up manipulative false phoney and is crippling the patient…well,that is what i have tried to explain about modern medicine…while it seems to work on the surface along with great amounts of marketing and hype advocating it…in reality it is false and hollow, with an occasional remarkable innovation that serves to justify it…but in reality it is leaving the people who use it, much the way our economy is…unbalanced out of homeostasis degenerating from the inside and declining in a managed way that is and will ultimately reveal those building imbalances…the model is made up and derivative and not natural …it will fail as will the fiat monetarist experiment..under the weight of its’ own inadequacies…it will be shown to have served its’ central planners and masters but not the people…yet the monetarists got control because the benefit to the power elite eclipsed what havoke it would unleash on the people…the same for medicine…an unsound model that is expressing its’ shortcomings in the sounds of agonizing groaning humans degenerating painfully slowly and unnaturally with the systems players telling them all it is normal…and we can fix that to and that as well also those can be managed…patch patch patch..lie lie lie…….ruptured by a billion tiny slashes until the masses moan and roll over totally defeated ……or not….start the news from this point forward!…

  86. surfdude October 17, 2006 9:06 pm

    One more point - go back and read what Makia says on post 81 carefully. This is what we are all up against. Violent people that will use our goodness and decency against us. If we don’t understand (and we need each other to watch our backs) the decietful and evil tactics that we face, we are all doomed. But remember David beat Golliath… right can beat might.

  87. Dr Jane Karlsson October 18, 2006 2:34 am

    larry,#45: I am sorry to have to tell you that what you are saying doesn’t make any sense.

    Insulin does not promote inflammation, it inhibits it. It is insulin resistance that’s associated with inflammation, and with heart disease. Insulin resistance is caused by micronutrient deficiencies, especially of chromium, magnesium, manganese and essential fatty acids, which are needed for the correct functioning of the insulin receptor.

    Unrefined grains contain these micronutrients, and do not cause insulin resistance. Refined grains have had them removed, and do.

    Inflammation is a normal part of the tissue repair process. Repair needs micronutrients, like all biological processes, and if they are in short supply it cannot go to completion. You then get chronic inflammation, which is characteristic of chronic degenerative disease.

    The Hunza of northern India, who I have mentioned before, were found in the 1920s by Sir Robert McCarrison to have absolutely no heart disease, despite eating large quantities of grains. They also had no cancer, or any other degenerative disease.

    Grains have been around for longer than people have. Do you really think that such an obvious source of food, and especially one that lends itself so well to storage, would not have been used by early humans?

  88. bp October 18, 2006 4:54 am

    Makia, your post #81 surely gets to the heart of the matter. What we have said before about psychopaths meshes well with what you say about violent people - these violent people are probably psychopathic (more or less - I will accept that there is a sliding scale of degree of psychopathology involved with these type of people). The part most disturbing to me is their ability to lie to you so sincerely that it is hard to tell they are lying. Hard to protect one’s self from this behavior - especially if one assumes people are straightforward in expressing themselves. Have you seen the video about Gladio that came from a TV presentation in Europe (I think Belgium)? It gives one a clearer picture of the connection between these violent people and the move toward Fascism in the world.

  89. Rich October 18, 2006 5:45 am


    The DOW is over 12,000! A little earlier than anticipated, I thought by the end of the year it would break it - now what??

    We’re in a New World, totally unchartered territory - nothing makes sense anymore.

    There are a ton of large earthquakes going off around the world in the past 72 hours, quite a few in the 6+ range, from Hawaii to Japan to Australia, Oregon Coast, etc.

    Yeah, I know this is off track, but there is a lot of stuff going on out there right now.

    Cheers Rich

  90. nestor October 18, 2006 6:24 am

    gee… dow 12k. what a suprise. where’s prechter now? where’s the crash?

  91. Sapiens October 18, 2006 7:28 am

    Ah, what a wonderful thread this has become!


    By your posts I see you have become aware of the Fundamental Truths.

    In your post at #81 you explain and clarify about those whom you call violent people. I suggest we find a term or word that clarifies the concept better.

    Dictionary.com defines violent as follows:


    –adjective 1. acting with or characterized by uncontrolled, strong, rough force: a violent earthquake.
    2. caused by injurious or destructive force: a violent death.
    3. intense in force, effect, etc.; severe; extreme: violent pain; violent cold.
    4. roughly or immoderately vehement or ardent: violent passions.
    5. furious in impetuosity, energy, etc.: violent haste.
    6. of, pertaining to, or constituting a distortion of meaning or fact.

    The people you describe are not uncontrolled, they are shrewd:


    –adjective, -er, -est. 1. astute or sharp in practical matters: a shrewd politician.
    2. keen; piercing.
    3. artful.
    4. Archaic: malicious.
    5. Obsolete: bad.
    6. Obsolete: shrewish.

    Notice the archaic definition above at number four: malicious.

    The fundamental difference between the Shrewd and the Violent is the use of reason. The Shrewd knows what he is doing and why he does what he does, the Violent does not “consciously” couple intent to their actions, the Violent are characterized by “unreasonable” injurious or destructive force. These people you describe as:

    someone who “really means business”

    are after one thing and you are correct when you say they are out to:

    only domination.

    The Shrewd are aware and conscious of the Fundamental fact that we as human beings have Free-will, Volition. They know that there is no hard set rule among human actions, the only limits on human actions are those imposed by the Laws of Nature, e.g. Physics.

    The most cunning deceit of the Shrewd is what Surfdude points out at #84:

    Violent people use your own goodness against you.

    Actually, it is not your own goodness. The Shrewd use your ignorance, your insecurity and your need for acceptance against you. The Shrewd use your weakness to domain over you, for the Shrewd’s own gain and profit. You are discarded once you are spent without regard to your own existence.

    Like Makia and surfdude states, you need to learn to defend yourself. You need to become self-aware and understand that only you have an inherent interest in keeping yourself safe and by mutual agreement with others to defend against those whom are Shrewd we all can leave in peace and harmony.


  92. Sapiens October 18, 2006 7:36 am

    bp at #88

    The part most disturbing to me is their ability to lie to you so sincerely that it is hard to tell they are lying. Hard to protect one’s self from this behavior - especially if one assumes people are straightforward in expressing themselves.

    Have you heard the cliche:

    “Actions, not words.”

    You watch their actions, you heed their actions and not their words. And yes, their is a way to defend against them. Like Ronald Reagan said: trust but verify.

    Never assume.


  93. Sapiens October 18, 2006 7:40 am

    I meant live in peace.

    Umm, need and edit button!

  94. bp October 18, 2006 7:54 am

    Sapiens, I would agree - “by their fruits” we shall know them, but…hehe, it would be nice to know before they act. I would like to see if you and Makias could develop a profile of these people - one starting point may be this test - http://www.politicalcompass.org/

    with apoligies to Rich - I forget if this is the quiz he referenced earlier - but to me a big part of this cancerous dis-ease of violence infecting much of Western Civilization lies in the need to dominate - who was it that said “the will to power is a perversion of the will to grow” (or something to that effect).

    And Turk - I see your point — Theoretically the Fed should function and be a decent institution, but with this disease of shrewd sociopaths seeking power, dominence, and control by whatever means, including using others to effect violence - perhaps we need to solve this problem before putting our faith in the Fed.

  95. larry October 18, 2006 9:04 am

    jane i am tiered of typing..search>no grain diet…..you will see that the tiny gland that releases insulin is tiny because it has rarely been used evolutionarily speaking…insulin intolerance is an developement of over consuming grains and sugar and starch..taking insulin release from cancer patients increases odds of treatment outcome more than almost anything….all doctors in antiaging medicine are fully vesersed on the premature aging affects caused by sugar/starch/ grain/insulin connection..perhapss studt anti aging medicine..perhaps go to http://www.mercola.com…search>no grain diet…you will see in time…the effects of our lifestyle are cummulative ….so pointing to what one culture does with oout all our modern poisens and life style bad ways would be just a correlation or observation and not a true conclusive end point

  96. Sapiens October 18, 2006 9:53 am

    bp @#94

    it would be nice to know before they act.

    You are asking to eliminate the essence of being human.

    This is what our Free-Will, Volition is all about! This is what makes life interesting and beautiful as well as cruel and ugly.

    Think about this: “You begin reading a book, in the first chapter it says, everything is fine. The second and the third chapters it says the same, everything is fine. The fourth and several consecutive chapters read the same, everything is fine. Would you finish the book? You already know the answer, everything is fine. So what is the purpose of reading to the end? Maybe for the possibility of finding out that in the end, everything is not fine.

    But in life, there are two definite states, alive and dead. If you are dead, there is nothing else. But if you are alive, you have choices, Free-will, Volition, the ability to continue or end, to hope, to live, to believe.

    Life is that, to continue to exist. To be absolutely Shrewd or Malicious is to be dead, it leads to death, to an end. The Shrewd consume, destroy and waste wantonly. There is no hope, there is not faith; there is only death.

    While the Enlighten plant, nurture, conserve and restore. The Enlighten are hope and faith, continued existence.

    The Enlighten embrace the responsibility that is required to live in peace and harmony against the odds and requirements of the physical body that requires time and space. It is the expense of the organism to physically exist that creates the conflict between beings. It is the unbridled desire to pass unto others this required expense without consequence to self that leads to grief, suffering and death. That desire to pass the required expense of living it is termed greed and avarice.

    So, bp, there is no need to know who they are before they act, there is only the need to know that the possibility to be harmed by them exist and that you need to take the necessary action and precautions to defend yourself.

    Live the best life you can live, for Life is the greatest blessing we have been endowed with.


  97. FeelingWeird October 18, 2006 9:59 am

    This was just to much writting to waste at the end of a dead discussion so I’ll repost it here.. Sorry for x-posting.

    Right on Michael. Couldn’t have said it better myself (obviously ,because I don’t have a popular website and you do).

    I just started reading this thread, and like spoiling a good book, I went right to the end and read you’re posting Michael. I will have to go back and re-read the entirety to get all the details.

    But this is the feeling I get from everyone on this board and it’s this. We are ALL fed up with the current state of affairs and are desperate for ANY kind of an answer, even if it maybe a wrong answer.

    There is a huge problem with seeking answers and that is the fact that so many people don’t even know the question they are asking. They WANT, they DEMAND answers. Well what is the question John Q Public. Well uhhhh, geeeeee, I don’t know. But I just want things better.

    This crowd is different in that we actually have taken the time to understand the questions before demanding answers.

    And I have come to this following answer after years and years of studying the questions.

    I will quote someone, though I don’t know her name; that sums up my entire belief system at this point and I paraphrase.

    “we are at that unique and uncomfortable time in history where we find that it is TO LATE TO SAVE THE SYTEM, AND IT’S TO EARLY TO START SHOOTING PEOPLE!!!!”.

    That maybe a bit harsh and a bit negative, but I’ve come to terms with it. I have become very Zen about the whole thing. I am working on reducing my lifestyle just ahead of the collapse so as to preserve my time and my energy, to be with my family. I sold out of my house about 2 years ago (based on much of the information from this very website). I sold at the top of the market and took the proceeds to pay down debt. Before I sold out I was working on average of 60 hours a week in two jobs. And at the worst of it, my wife was also working 1 1/2 jobs. We were miserable; we spent very little quality time with the kids. And people who live constantly at that level are easily manipulated and controlled, especially those who are heavily in debt. I resented the fact that I allowed myself to fall for such an obvious trap. Lucky for me, I found this site 2 1/2 years ago (maybe even 3). It helped me to solidify my thinking and make smart and sometimes harsh decisions. Selling the house and downgrading to a small rental house was not easy. It took a huge amount of PRIDE SWALLOWING to do it, but we did it anyways, and have never regretted it.

    From here on out, I am going to use the advance information I glean from places like this, to just stay ahead of the curve. Next stop is buying a 1 acre property that fell into foreclosure a year ago, and has yet to sell. My wife and I are developing a plan to do it as cheap as possible. The land is big enough to plant fruiting trees and to have a huge garden. Because, that is the next step down. Food prices and energy prices heading back to the stratosphere. Time to get ready for that next reality.. Think 1 week post Katrina and you’ll get a sense of what’s coming down the pike.

    Better use this time of “Gridlock” wisely cuz it ain’t gonna last.

    You might be saying “but Bob, don’t you care for this country, how can you not stand and fight!”. To that I say this. THE FIGHT WAS LOST A LONG TIME AGO! Face the facts. All I can do now is wait for a sufficient number of people to finally wake up and realize it’s TIME TO WATER THE FREEDOM TREE AGAIN. And if you don’t recognize that snippet from American history than shame on you!!

    Robert NW Ohio

  98. muleskinner October 18, 2006 10:20 am

    Arbeit Macht Frei

    One, two, three… what are we working for? Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn…

  99. bp October 18, 2006 10:27 am

    hm, Sapiens - I take it you haven’t read - The Future of the Body: Explorations into the Further Evolution of Human Nature by Michael Murphy. You seem to haver a rather static conception of human existence/nature. Would you deny that some humans are more perceptive, more intuitive than others - that to see a hammer coming down on ones self is not a bad thing?

  100. Rich October 18, 2006 10:46 am

    Hey bp.

    Great online test, here’s my results:

    Economic Left/Right: -3.00
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.56

    Turns out I’m almost Ghandi! Weird, I didn’t see myself quite as passive as that.

    I think everyone on here could benefit from this:


    Cheers Rich

  101. surfdude October 18, 2006 10:53 am

    I stand corrected by Sapiens. They use ingnorance and naivety against us, not “goodness”. Many well meaning people are ignorant of how the evil acheive their ends. The best preparation you can give to your children is to help them understand the methods and mindset of the evil ones.

    Great site - i am learning and inspired!

  102. TreadCarefully October 18, 2006 10:59 am

    Looks like this thread may have gotten off topic but I feel I have to comment:

    Stop hacking at the branches!

    The root of all of the problems with government today is philisophical: lack of individual responsibility. The manifestation of this is the fatal idea that we NEED any government at all. Why do we need to be ruled in the first place? There are certain, very rare, instances where the coordinated collaboration of a nations worth of people is required, like a foreign invasion. But why do we require that some small class of people with the power to compel exist at all? What do we need THEM for? We don’t. They need US in order to rule,but we don’t need to be ruled. Just about all of the ‘problems’ brought up in this and the previous thread are the result of the fact that government has power over us in the first place! We can have good government, as long as we don’t give it the power to DO anything. Limited government was the Founders intent. They just didn’t limit it enough! The Fed, IRS, BATFE, lobbyists, FDA etc. are all the RESULT of a government with power. Take away the power (and thus the exercisors of that power, the rulers) and you have freedom, by definition. Whenever anyone talks about “doing” something, “they should fix this or that, abolish this or that…” they are just trading one tyranny for another. Abolish the Fed, and something will be created to take its place, unless you remove the ability of gov to create its replacement. You see, when you say something like “abolish the FDA” you don’t really mean that. You mean, “take away the ability of the government to regulate commerce”. Now we are getting somewhere! You don’t mean “abolish the Fed”, you mean “take away gov’s ability to dictate what can be used as money”. Remember, WE DON’T NEED THEM! We don’t need to be ruled!

    What to do? Start with the right idea, individual freedom and responsibility are sacrosanct, and work from there. How do you have a government that abides this central premise? Simple, only give it the ability to compel when it have the UNANIMOUS consent of the governed. Envision a government that needs everyone (ok, say only 99.5% of everyone) before they could compel anyone to do anything. Exactly! A gov that starts with no power and has virtually no mechanism to gain any. That is freedom! Remember, what we are talking about here is freedom from compulsion. That is all. Government is not the only potential source of compulsion, but social and free market mechanisms have proven that they can take care of the rest.

    Sorry for the rant, but I see a lot of intelligent, earnest people trying to fix our society who haven’t identified the root-cause of the problem, so none of their ’solutions’ can possibly work. Taking away government’s ability to DO anything, to tyrannize us in the first place, is the fundamental prerequisite to a lasting, peaceful society.

  103. FeelingWeird October 18, 2006 11:00 am


    Great Link Muleskinner.. That is my philosophy exactly. I didn’t even know it had a name. My plan is to free up enough time to teach my children a different way. I am instilling in them a two fold approach to life. To always want to keep learning about things. I let them go on 5 minute “what is that, and how does it work” tirades with me. As sometimes boring as it is, I am finding that their “boring” questions are getting more and more refined and more interesting.

    More and more they are asking, what I consider the “right” questions. And I tell them what I think. I don’t tell them that my answer is the only “right” one.. But seeing as that they are only 5 and 7, they think that daddy knows everything..

    The 2nd part of what I am teaching them is that everyone gets manipulated. And I am teaching them how to spot it, and how to deal with it.. They watch commercials and they immediatly start asking for something(the latest is a stupid thing called Splunge or some stupid thing). I ask them why they want it, and they can’t answer me.. This may take years for it to take root, but I am hoping that they can learn this lesson before they leave my house.. Unlike me, where it took almost 35 years to learn the lesson..

    I am simplifying my life to have fun with my kids and my wife. That’s ALL THAT’S IMPORTANT TO ME!!

    Robert NW Ohio

  104. Sapiens October 18, 2006 11:23 am

    bp, please elaborate on this:

    You seem to haver a rather static conception of human existence/nature.

    Would you deny that some humans are more perceptive, more intuitive than others - that to see a hammer coming down on ones self is not a bad thing?

    I believe we all have right to exist, but not all of us are created equal. Yes, some are more perceptive. I would believe that if I am able to perceive that a hammer is coming down on me and I am able to prevent the consequencial harm, yes it is a good thing. If I am able to perceive it coming down on me and can’t do anything about it, tragic. And to perceive it coming down on me and don’t know what to do, unfortunate.

    Where are you going with this?


  105. Makia October 18, 2006 12:00 pm

    I’ve got a couple things more.

    First, thank you guys who have encouraged my words and given my views encouragement. It means so much to me that I can’t put it into words. Suffice to say reading your feedback literally warms my heart.

    My overall attitude, which I encourage, is to be flexible in every way you can. And remember that flexibility is somewhat a god-given talent, but it is much more a learned trait and skill. As far as that goes, flexibility in one area (physical, mental, etc.) develops flexibility in other areas (emotional, physical, etc.). The teachers I have the most respect for are strong physically and mentally, and this is not a coincidence. To that end, eat healthy and exercise properly. Also important (to me) is that the truly strongest, wisest, and most powerful and flexible people I know also have the lightest of hearts.

    A light heart, I beleive, doesn’t stem from the nievity of a child, but the acceptance that pain and suffering often is beyond our influence. Life is not what happens to you, but how you act in response. Teaching this to others, living with this beleif, requires that we do not get angry at suffering, but vigilantly push the attitude of dealing with tough circumstances in the most productive ways we can think of. As I’ve put forward expicitly, acting with vengence only TAKES AWAY our ability to act wisely. Seeing the bigger picture (way bigger than the picture viewed by the angry, the greedy, and the violent) is the path through a truly productive life, no matter what circumstances may bring.

    If you haven’t noticed, a great book could be written on this basis. A few books like have already been written over the eons, but my impetus of detailing these thoughts on this post stems from a concern I’ve been having that a global climax is very near. I am feeling a strong motivation to express the core of these ideas, as close as I can, with people who I think will take it to heart - immediately. Don’t take my concern for immediacy too seriously, I know that I may be not seeing the whole picture. If these things are meant to develop, they will. It doesn’t make any of my advice invalid.

    I want to further describe my overall view, as larry has implied he may be “older” than me. Let me relate an anecdote:

    A Chinese (communist) office holder was interviewed within the last couple of years. He was asked about the success of the French Revolution (late 1700’s) - the events which started to overthrow monarchs and plant the seeds of “government by the people,” in the western consiousness. His response: “Too soon to tell.”

    I would describe myself as being young, but having the patience of a 1,000-year-old-man. I would describe my self as having tempered-optimism, or tempered-pessimism, or tempered-realism. It really all depends on the situation, and gathering from all of my experience and skills that I’ve been able to muster so far. In other words, I just do my best. I define this, and I think its a decent definition, as wisdom. Wisdom is also very humble, in my opinion - I don’t claim to know everything, I guess I just do my best.

    Thank you, sapiens, for refining my word for violent as “shrewd.” You’ve refined my point very well. (As if its _my_ point, LOL. I’m merely a bug). The key is intent.

    Also, ditto on your point about “knowing when those who have malintent before they act.” Also to treadcarefully: this line of posts is certainly at the root, not the branches. Personal responsibility is the motivation I promote.

    That is the big problem with solving the modern “capitalist” problems with socialism, or even more GLOBALISATION. When I promote localisation, I accept that there would be a basically infinite number of tribes with many varying paradigms. I, or the editorial “you,” will not fit in everywhere. That’s beautiful. There are so many paths of human existence on this planet, I don’t want to go somewhere else and tell them what the “right” way to live is, what do I know? But I adamantly want the right to have a great deal of influence over my own family, and at least a say in the environment of my local community. A great way to determine the “non-shrewd” from the “successful,” is their willingness to see this kind of idea to fruition. The biggest problem with our system is the consolidation of power to far away places: Washington D.C., New York, Brussels, etc. The only people who should want to keep it that way are those that are gaining from it, which are the “shrewd” to which we refer.

    But localisation does not in itself make the world an entirely peaceful place. Firstly though, it gives us a much greater chance. Secondly, we must still exercise this personal responsibility to not allow ourselves to be taken advantage of. You would probably think its funny of me to say that I’m a very trusting person. Upon deeper investigation, though, one would find a strong survival instinct (high regard for usefulness), a strong capacity for compassion, and personal use of (to the best of my ability) spiritual understanding/common sense, and the modicum “trust but verify.” I also beleive that karma is much greater than understanding, even if the ego wants to beleive otherwise. Oh, yeah, my definition of karma is such that its a pretty darn useful tool of the universe.

    THANK YOU muleskinner for your link. For those who think it’s way too idealistic, well, just know that I am not opposed to working very hard for good things, and I don’t think anyone who thanks muleskinner for that link is. But indeed the problems within our society, economy, and government are due to a lack of vigilance and PROPER education among the populous. I don’t think its unreasonable to say that people are just too consumed by their job to think about “improving the world.” Even improving their family. God damn. I know people are frustrated. . .

    I’ll go for now. In the meantime, remember that a strong immune system is real a synonym for self-defense. That’s my little point to adress the problems with modern medicine. Allopathy hurts our immune system. Beleif in that system, in my opinion, will only give you a weak body and mind which won’t be able to defend itself from sickness or the shrewd. The “altenative” medicine paradigms rarely treat sickness, but strengthen the body’s ability (read:mind) to do what its designed to do in the first place.


  106. muleskinner October 18, 2006 12:02 pm

    Abraham Lincoln said the same thing:

    Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

    Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

    But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate — we can not consecrate — we can not hallow — this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us — that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain — that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

    All men are not created equal, it is merely a proposition.

  107. Makia October 18, 2006 12:13 pm

    Thanks to feelingweird for his story. God bless us all, we can surely use it.

  108. Makia October 18, 2006 12:22 pm

    I love Abe, seemed like a man after my own heart (from what I’ve seen he may have been after my other things, *snicker*). It’s not an unfortuneate thing, its just a pretty obvious fact, all men are not created equal. All men do deserve the same benefit of the doubt, however. Discernment should intervene, however, when a man/woman’s actions embody greed. Greed should be taught out of us as children. Too bad it hasn’t been for many of us for a few hundred generations. Now greed is basically encouraged. It’d be nice to have the comfort that we won’t as a race kill ourselves off because of these transgressions.

    But as my mentor expressed to me when talking about being attacked by a knife: “If I do go down, I’m gonna go down dancin’.”


  109. Makia October 18, 2006 12:26 pm

    Thanks Treadcarefully. Well, very well said. This will take learning from the future leaders so that we don’t fall into the same traps. That’s what this post is all about, I think.

  110. larry October 18, 2006 12:29 pm

    edward bellemy…’looking backwards’…if all men do their best all men do the same….a strong argument that we are all flawed enough as to not be able to objectively decide who is better or best…we are all the same in a spiritual sense and hierarchy is a creation of mans hubris and ego

  111. Frank Breckenridge October 18, 2006 1:30 pm

    I think that things would be alot better if we re-instituted the Bill of Rights. Or has someone already noticed that we lost them this week?

  112. Sapiens October 18, 2006 1:40 pm

    Excellent link muleskinner, it is a cruel fact you learn once you have exhausted your passion and don’t have anything to look forward to, Man does not need to work more than it is required to secure his subsistence.

    In reference to Abe Lincoln, what Thomas Jefferson wrote may have been interpreted literally. Only if you have written extensively you become keen to the fact that transmitting concepts via the written word can be extremely difficult. Since you are not there for the reader to explain the nuances of the concept you are trying to express.

    What Jefferson may have meant is that all of us are created with the equal right to exist, but with not the same abilities. This makes sense, because if we were all the same, what would be the purpose of a world full of clones? No conflict, no beauty, nothing different, all the same; in effect, no Life.


  113. Sapiens October 18, 2006 3:20 pm

    I want to share with you the basic and fundamental principles by which I live my life:

    The First Fundamental Principles….

    “All Beings have an equal right to exist. But not all Beings are created with equal abilities.”

    “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Don’t do to others what you don’t want done to you, for you are ultimately responsible for your actions or inactions.”

    “Let not your Virtues or Vices be used against you.”


  114. bp October 18, 2006 4:16 pm

    Sapiens, I will try to respond to you per your questions in #104, hopefully you haven’t moved to the other site already. Perhaps you mistook my desire to recognize these people before they act as a desire to know the future. Not so. Would you agree that a frame of reference underlies our perceptions. For instance, it is said that the first Eskimos to see airplanes in the sky mistook them for butterflys and that they can distinguish seven types of snow. If I don’t have the frame of reference to distinguish Shrewd or Malicious people.

    So basically I was only trying to raise my awareness, to be able to clarify my perception, to see more clearly these people you describe. I don’t see how that has anything to do with Free Will - perhaps I touched a hot button there, sorry.

    As for the static view of life….let’s just say it sounded like you were advocating victimhood there - I am what I am, I don’t change stuff. Again, maybe I misunderstood, but maybe I still don’t understand you reluctance to clarify your perceptions of these people.

    But thanks for the response - see you on the Dark Side of the Moon.

  115. surfdude October 18, 2006 4:52 pm

    On the topic of “everyone is created equal”…

    I agree it can not be understood to mean that all people are equal. Even to say that all people have an equal right to exist seems to miss the mark a bit. How about “all people are created equal” in the sense that no one life is of more value than another. That means that it is immoral to look at another person as of less value than myself.

    Now - we all know that there are great talented artists, atheletes, musicians, and the like. In that sense gifted people have more value regarding entertainment, enlightenment, productivty, and contributions to society. To put it another way, we all know beautiful, attractive women. No one would say they are created equal to, well lets say, ahh, well, you know what i mean. This is not the meaning of “created equal”.

    Today, these lofty types have no problem sending young brave soldiers to die or be maimed to further their agenda. And they have no problem wasting the hard earned labor of the people on Pork and givaways to gain more power. They have no problem lying to you and decieving you so that they can manipulate and cause you to serve them. That, my friends, smacks in the face of “all men are created equal”. They believe that we should serve them - that we were created to serve them. They can be found in Government, in the workplace, in the churches - everywhere. When will they be humbled?

  116. Administrator October 18, 2006 5:15 pm

    Onto Part III:

    Sites We Love


    Introducing the new Bull! Not bull Wiki on making the world a better place:


    Thank you everyone.

  117. Makia October 18, 2006 5:59 pm

    Wow, thanks Michael. That’s deep.

  118. Makia October 18, 2006 6:01 pm

    I mean, the Wiki looks pretty inspiring. Great idea.

  119. Makia October 18, 2006 6:12 pm

    Sapiens, post #113.

    I think that’s as an efficient way of putting it as I’ve ever thought it. Number two I beleive is the core:

    “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Don’t do to others what you don’t want done to you. . . .”

    And for that matter, if I ever act like a greedy or violent idiot, please kick the snot out of me.

  120. Sapiens October 18, 2006 6:57 pm


    So basically I was only trying to raise my awareness, to be able to clarify my perception, to see more clearly these people you describe. I don’t see how that has anything to do with Free Will - perhaps I touched a hot button there, sorry.

    The thing is that all of us can be those people, certainly the ability and power to be Shrewd is within all of us. i.e. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    Meaning you, others keep us in check, if they fail, we can totally destroy them.

    As for the static view of life….let’s just say it sounded like you were advocating victimhood there - I am what I am, I don’t change stuff. Again, maybe I misunderstood,

    How can advocating self-defence be advocating victimhood?



    Many are called, few are chosen. Many hear, few understand..

  121. Sapiens October 18, 2006 7:01 pm

    Thank you all for the insight…

  122. Makia October 18, 2006 7:42 pm

    I second that.

  123. Dr Jane Karlsson October 19, 2006 4:22 am

    Hi larry, thanks for your response to my #87. Yes, Mercola says some excellent things, but about grains he is wrong. Please read my #87 again, carefully. I have tried to tell Mercola, but I don’t get anywhere.

    Hi Turk, thanks for #67, you are probably right. I am interested in finding out how things got to be like this. Could you please read my #61 and comment? Michael will give you my email address if you want it to be private.

  124. Dr Jane Karlsson October 19, 2006 4:37 am

    Forgot to say: Rich, you asked a question in #46, I’m sorry, I don’t know the answer.

  125. bp October 19, 2006 4:42 am

    Sapiens - your words create a cognitive dissonance - how do you reconcile your statements of:

    by mutual agreement with others to defend against those whom are Shrewd we all can leave in peace and harmony

    The thing is that all of us can be those people, certainly the ability and power to be Shrewd is within all of us. i.e. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    so i take it you mean that the problem is not “others that are shrewd”, but rather it is the corrupting effect of power which is the real problem since we all have within us the the possiblity of being shrewd.

    so….perhaps you shouldn’t talk about “these people”, but rather talk about the corrosive/corrupting effect of power on anyone that holds it (the greater the power the more corrosive the effect), and how one can defend oneself from this corrosive/corrupting effect… “resist not evil” would imply a martial arts approach of not trying to resist the force, but to see and act ahead of the force hitting you.

    I think many here have already implied that the concentration of power in nations, governments, institutions and individuals is a real problem that needs addressing

  126. Sapiens October 19, 2006 6:41 am


    Power is given not taken. I have no power over you other than that of what you give me.

    I can coerce you or persuade you to do my bidding; however, it is up to you to comply. If I can entice enough people to do my bidding, I can then coerce many more to comply with my desires. The fundamental key here is that the many must be ignorant of their Free-will, their Volition. They must be convinced they have no other choice than to comply.

    Remember, power is a concept; actions emanate form the Will of each of us. Each and every one of us is responsible for ourselves and to each other. If I witness injustice and accept it, I have resigned myself to be subject to the same injustice.

    I hope you understand by now that it is about personal responsibility. No one, NO ONE cares for you as you must care for yourself. So first care and govern yourself well, so you may care and govern other well.


  127. SATAN October 19, 2006 7:36 pm

    Sapiens does not know squat.

  128. Makia October 20, 2006 7:15 am

    Satan would say that. Well, satan, what would you suggest?

    I think that if hyperinflation of our currency occurs, which has occurred with every fiat currency and the writing seems to be on the wall for the USD, I think its rather prudent for responsible individuals to discuss these issues and prepare.

    Y’know we all might be pretty frustrated about a few things in years to come. On that thought:

    If I put up 1 Billion USD, what odds would you give me that the US economy will be deep in a recession one year from now?


  129. muleskinner October 20, 2006 7:40 am

    Now Satan is even hanging around here too also some. Wow!

    That’s unbelievable.

  130. bp October 20, 2006 9:29 am

    Makia #128, you need to take that issue up with nestor and Cornhusker.

    As for me, I am curious as to what your attitude is toward the accumulation of wealth?

  131. Sapiens October 20, 2006 11:36 am


    Nice try.

    LOL, let me give this a shot…

    It is funny you chose the handle Satan, since the religious conotation will intimidate the lay people. There is no easier way to control the ignorant masses than through dogma.

    But let’s play; the conceptual Satan does not attack directly, he works through deceit, doubt and misrepresentation, his minions are the ones that attack directly, but since there is no true Satan other than the concept and ability that resides within us, then yes, you are Satan.



  132. Sapiens October 20, 2006 11:45 am


    Do not be fooled by the argument of Hyperinflation, those making the current argument for it do not understand the concept of Money.

    There is presedent as to what’s going on in the economy, but you must sift through all the bull.

    If you want, write to me at gmsapiens at yahoo . com to discuss and exchange ideas.


  133. Makia October 20, 2006 3:06 pm

    Sapiens, that was a nice shot at satan.

    Accumulation of wealth is something I’ve been thinking a lot about recently. In one hand, I look at gold and silver, etc. It’s worth very little to me over my lifetime. I’ve never eaten it, or built any part of my house with it. It’s never kept me warm at night or kept my computer on. I’ve never paid for anything with it.

    On the other hand, the history of my society has been driven by a pursuit of this useless metal. In fact, being useless is one of the properties of gold which makes it so valuable. 1)There is always a limited supply of gold. 2)Gold doesn’t go bad, no matter where it is kept or for how long. 3)Gold can’t be counterfieted. and 4) We haven’t found any better use for it because it just makes such good “money”.

    I would love to see the gold worshipping disappear from our race, but I don’t really see any signs of its demise. Even when the dollar crumbles, the citizens will blame anything before they blame the system that they beleived in so much is made of lies to keep them working and killing themselves. What will the Chinese and Muslims do with all that gold, that’s my question?

    Does that answer your question bp?

  134. Makia October 20, 2006 3:15 pm

    I forgot to mention my grand philosophical reasoning on the subject and that is that humans seem to be addicted to scarcity, and the attraction to gold/material wealth is a manifestation of that addiction. Gold/money does not make a person any wealthier in mind, spirt, emotion, or body. This “sickness” has persisted and seemingly gotten much more pervasive, little by little, for eons. These are my concerns. Any suggestions?

  135. Dr Jane Karlsson October 21, 2006 5:42 am

    Makia, #128: do you mean that if you ‘put up 1 billion USD’, it would cause hyperinflation? How? Or do you mean recession without hyperinflation? Again, how?

  136. Makia October 21, 2006 3:47 pm

    What I’m suggesting is that I have a Billion USD, and I’m going to put it up for a wager with you. You give me odds that the economy won’t be in a recession, and I’ll put my billion up.

    It actually was meant as a joke, as well as a question. The question is what do you all think of the odds of a major recession in the next twelve months. Another part of #128 is my hypothesis that the combination of things that start to unravel with the economy will cause hyper-inflation of the USD. The joke is that if I’m right, the billion won’t be worth anything.

  137. Dr Jane Karlsson October 22, 2006 5:40 am

    Oh my God. I thought you really did have a billion USD.

    What kind of hyperinflation do you have in mind? Wheelbarrows of dollars to buy a loaf of bread? Or just triple-digit? Or maybe you are one of those who call the pathetic pre-Volcker double-digit stuff hyperinflation?

    Silly me. If the billion won’t be worth anything, it must be the wheelbarrow kind. How do you get to that point?

  138. Sapiens October 22, 2006 11:35 am

    Dr Jane Karlsson Says:

    Silly me. If the billion won’t be worth anything, it must be the wheelbarrow kind. How do you get to that point?

    Uncontrolled Gov. spending. They are the only ones allowed to print currency and coerce it into circulation.


  139. bp October 22, 2006 1:40 pm

    Makia #133/134, Thank you for the considerate and thoughtful response. The problem of “when is enough, enough” does seem to plague the US — never enough, never enough — seems to be our response to everything - housing size, wealth, possessions, power, food, you name it - supersize me.

    I’m not so sure about an addiction to scarcity, but maybe that is the flip side of a basic insecurity that that drives people to seek security in material things. And true, this can all be conceptual, but I incarnated onto this ball field, into a consensual reality - in a case like that it’s nice to know the rules everyone is playing by to survive, especially if one doesn’t want to be forcefully ejected from the field.

    Thanks again.

  140. Makia October 22, 2006 4:22 pm

    In the final analysis, bp, I agree.

  141. bp October 23, 2006 4:41 am

    Makia, I’ve thought about what you said in #134 concerning an addiction to scarcity, and if what you meant is an addiction to the belief of scarcity, that we are addicted to believing in a scarcity that really doesn’t exist (reminds me of that book, An end to scarcity, I believe was the title) then I understand better now what you were pointing to. Odd how humans hang onto points of view that are no longer useful. So you ask for suggestions on how to change this perception…interesting, especially as we face increased competition for energy resources. My guess would be the human race will have to ratchet up a notch in funtioning to quit seeing “others” as a threat to one’s survival and learn to work together for the benefit of all…but to get there we probably are going to have to suffer a good deal more.

    Thanks for the food for thought.

  142. Dr Jane Karlsson October 23, 2006 6:48 am

    Sapiens, #138: the Japanese have had ‘uncontrolled government spending’ (on infrastructure projects) as well as ultra-loose monetary policy for years and years, and no inflation. Deflation, actually.

    All the old ideas about the causes of inflation are biting the dust, it seems to me. I read an article only last week saying ‘A loose monetary policy eventually produces price inflation’. How come it hasn’t in Japan?

  143. Kaster October 23, 2006 9:37 am

    Japan had real inflation before they sank into deflation. Even during deflation they have not really had true deflation in the cost of vital resources. As long as deflation/inflation is measured in the value of things that are not vital to survival, there will be a skewed idea about what inflation and deflation are in real terms of value. Real inflation is the result of the relationship of population to resources. It manifests itself through monetary policy as increased or decresed value the vehicle of commerce. Housing prices and other prices are simply market manifestations of any given money confidence cycle and the need to purchase certain things the markets have made us believe we need more than vital resources. Note the decreasing housing prices. Even if the price of a ‘house’ decreases, the vital resources tied up with the house are still valued as before or rising, i.e. land and water rights/tap fees. This shows that real inflation continues in a so-called deflationary environment. The decrease in the house price is just a function of the monetary cycle, the steady or increasing value of land, water and other vital resources shows that real inflation is on going and directly correlates to the ratio of population to vital resources.

  144. Makia October 23, 2006 1:32 pm

    Ahhhh, how wonderful! That’s exactly what I’m saying! (bp, #141)

    Here’s the thing, and I think it is the quintessential understanding in “Creating a Better World.”

    A society which lives without scarcity looks quite different from the one 99% of the people on this planet are used to. “A Society” which lives in this way, in my opionion and understanding, isn’t neccesarily composed entirely of abundance-perceiving people, however. This is important, and this is where leaders with great integrity are needed. Its not important that each individual never fears scarcity. What is important that society’s constructs do not embody the concept of scarcity, but rather, abundance.

    I can go into this a bit more if folks are interested, but relating to Gold, this is the point that I make:

    Gold’s value is determined by its characteristics, not its usefulness. A couple of the important characteristics which we make use of in creating currency out of it is that it is RARE, it is PURIFIABLE and NON-Counterfietable, and it does not Break Down (i.e., it holds its other characteristics indefinately.)
    But as I said before, gold is not required to survive, or even to thrive, on THIS PLANET. Well, the planet isn’t designed that way, even if man has created laws, police, armies, and prisons to force everyone it can into this money dependant, “gold worshipping”, global societal structure.
    As you say in #139, bp, it is very wise to know, understand, and use the tools of the society you are born into. But in a big way, what you say of “what I need to do to survive,” is what I want to adress. How to thrive even more important to my thinking and motivation.

    A society which recognizes abundance would not punish citizens for not pursuing gold. Today in the U.S., its about pursuing money, not gold, but money is based on gold. The modern bankers say that our money isn’t backed by gold or other precious metals - that they don’t matter - but they clearly do. They’ve told us gold doesn’t matter, so they could unback our currency, so that they can make more of it, so that they can lend it, so that they can collect interest on it. Printing currency and charging is purely the realm of banking. In fact charging interest is outlawed in the bible. I’m starting to understand why.

    When the end results are counted, it seems that printing unbacked money results in unstable and unsustainable “wealth.” The finance people of our modern world, I know, patently disagree with this. Rather than countering the points of sustainability or stability, though, they’ll probably talk about all the wonderful technology and huge cities the world has due to the “wealth” created by the finance sector.

    I’ll go at it all day with those people. The problem we’ve come to right now in history is: If the foundation of a society is built on an unbacked currency (much of the entire world’s “reserves” are USD) and that currency implodes after having built and sustained huge cities with huge populations - more and more on credit - what happens to the populations who must resort back to something _tangible_ for currency? The other question is what the leaders of the People should teach and pursue in order to promote peace and security for the People, at large.

    Being able to print unbacked money is putting us in a whole heap of trouble. Backing the paper money with gold - this purifiable, un-counterfietable, non-degradable, rare substance is a safeguard for responsible use (though not an all-encompassing solution). When you don’t have the gold, you can’t spend the gold. The problem with this arrangement is it requires brute force to facilitate greed. When there “isn’t enough” gold, it must be physically taken.

    The finance sector doesn’t have to physically battle anything, it just charges interest, and when there’s not enough money to pay the interest in the economy, it can print more. It seems to me that the giant banks and other financial entities battle eachother constantly to dominate and grab larger and larger shares of the fake money. When one doesn’t make the right moves or cater to the right people, the giants can fall. However the giants that spell the demise are other financial giants playing the same game, catering to the right people, etc. I know “they” defend the system as “rising tides float all boats.” But I would argue that though that arguement might “make sense”, the established record of this system of economics is that the “rich get richer and the poor get poorer.” When it happens over a couple of generations, the People are not quick to see what has happened.

    The “poor” (which is almost everybody - from our $10,000/year to $110,000/year, we’re all) unwittingly play this game of scarce resources, scarce “money.” For a long time our race has conditioned itself to “this is just the way it is.” A problem that I see is that there is almost no escape. I mean, if you want to barter for everything, even say including your home, Uncle Sam and other tax men will still force you to pay income taxes, or more significantly property taxes. You could take out an equity loan to pay the taxes. . . Then, even if you do manage to wage a meaningful and healthy and debt-free life on the bare minimum that will keep you out of jail, you still have no protection if the gov. finds a more “wealth generating” activity that your land could be used for.

    Today, gold is not the only important scarce resourse that signifies wealth, but it’s very important. More modern equivalents are oil and nat. gas. But these are funny in that they are valuable because they are consumed, not because they are durable. These energy sources are, importantly, becoming more rare as production decreases and demand increases. But when one generates wealth through these consumambles, they must still _preserve_ the wealth. Keeping boatloads of cash does not stand the test of time due to inflation, but good old gold and silver still signify true lasting wealth. Maybe not to you and me, but the truly wealthy know what the deal is.

    The movers and shakers need us all to beleive that gold doesn’t matter (today they tell us that its the oil that matters), but what do they do with their cash? They buy gold. And what can they actually DO with it? Nothing. So why do they buy it or keep it?

    The people are too comfortable. Fact is, I don’t know anyone who wants to give up the niceties of modern life. The problem is that the common-ness of these “niceties” is due to the ever increasing cycle of debt. Eventually it should get paid for, but the target is unfathomable.

    So gold as a currency can provide food and shelter for so many people, and the population can grow. Once you keep the currency in place, but replace the substantial (precious metal) with insubstantial (paper, but more accurately: debt), the willingness of the people to live in such a system creates greater and greater populations which aren’t built on the substantial, but the imaginary. Once that core is exposed (my hypothesis is that inflation will expose this), the systems which keep the population fed and sheltered become greatly disrupted. This is not due to a lack of food or shelter, but a lack of jobs to go to make the “cash” to pay for the neccesities. (As the link by muleskinner pointed out, most jobs wouldn’t be here if not to support the finance sector, or other “needless” bueracracies in some fashion.) Plus an unwillingness to go to a job for worthless paper.

    “Changing the perceptions. . .” (bp, #141) Yes. This is something I am very interested in participating in. I won’t bore you all with me fears of what if perceptions don’t change.

    much love

  145. Sapiens October 24, 2006 1:03 am

    Dr. Jane @ 142.

    Read “The Dollar Crisis: Causes, Consequences, Cures” by Richard Duncan, for background on what happened in Japan.

    In Japan they had a major credit expansion and the banks were allowed to keep on the books defaulted loans as still performing, read the above listed book for some insight into why Japan is suffering from “deflation.”

    We need to clarify the meaning and concept of inflation. Credit expansion is not inflation, although it may seem to have the same effects of inflation. Currency expansion in excess of the needs of commerce is inflation and the rise in prices of the underlaying currency its consequence.

    Credit uses the unit-of-accounting concept of money, while printing and issuing currency uses the medium-of-exchange concept of money.

    Work is needed to better articulate those separate concepts of money.


  146. Dr Jane Karlsson October 24, 2006 6:17 am

    Kaster, Makia and Sapiens, many thanks. This discussion is brilliant. I hope Michael can find the time to follow it, he hasn’t been well.

    Kaster: ‘Real inflation is the result of the relationship of the population to resources.’ Yes indeed. As industrialisation proceeds, costs rise. Minerals and energy get more expensive as easily-available sources run out; insurance and health-care costs rise, waste disposal and pollution become a problem, infrastructure crumbles, etc etc.

    In view of the above, how could the monetarists claim that inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon?

    Sapiens: I Googled the book you recommended and found the list of contents, which sounds wonderful. I wish I had time to read it. May I comment on your ‘Currency expansion in excess of the needs of commerce is inflation and the rise in prices … its consequence.’?

    I know what you are saying, but is it actually true? Clearly, monetary expansion does not always result in price rises. Maybe calling monetary expansion ‘inflation’ was simply the monetarists trying to wriggle out of this uncomfortable fact.

    Makia: Do you think hyperinflation is the necessary trigger for changing people’s perceptions? It seems to me that some kind of catastrophe is needed. Much better for it to be hyperinflation than nuclear war.

  147. Sapiens October 24, 2006 8:47 am

    Dr Jane Karlsson Says:

    ‘Currency expansion in excess of the needs of commerce is inflation and the rise in prices … its consequence.’?

    I know what you are saying, but is it actually true? Clearly, monetary expansion does not always result in price rises. Maybe calling monetary expansion ‘inflation’ was simply the monetarists trying to wriggle out of this uncomfortable fact.

    Dr. Jane,

    Let’s not called it “monetary expansion”, let’s us call it currency expansion to be more precise. You are correct that currency expansion would not necessary would cause price increases if it was being taken out of circulation and being parked, i.e. not lending it. e.g. Oil producer selling the natural resource and parking the currency.


  148. bp October 24, 2006 11:01 am

    Makia #144 - thanks for the response - I’ll have to think about that for awhile and get back to you, but I can tell you one thing I’ve seen concerning “changing perceptions” - new ideas work their way down into society very slowly - I’d say right now we are still transitioning from Newton’s static, mechanistic view of the world to an organic, dynamic, system or process view of the world - these new views of “reality” get reflected in areas like finance and economics eventually, albeit, very slowly, but…the change will come.

    Right now…it is hard for me to imagine how finance and economics will change to reflect this new perception of reality, except I do see a need for finance and economics to develop a view of society as an organic, dynamic entity, and therefore function to help it and its members thrive — I’ll side with “thrive” over “survive” any time.

  149. bp October 24, 2006 11:50 am

    oh, Makia…speaking of scarcity-based economic systems - check out this - http://uncapitalist.com/blog/?itemid=1436#more

    just saw it, funny how serendipity works

  150. Sapiens October 24, 2006 1:12 pm


    I hope you feel better, get well soon!


  151. Makia October 24, 2006 1:35 pm

    Thank you for that insight, bp. On those thoughts, there is another aspect of the universe which is held in quantum theory (as opposed to Newtonian), and that is the quantum leap. So while change seems to happen slowly, big changes happen all at once. Applying this knowledge to societal changes today is a daunting task to say the least.

    As for myself, I am hoping for a dramatic change soon. Something, I read recently, though, pointed out that if an economic collapse occurs, the result will likely not be peace as the masses realize the fultility of the system they’ve vested their lives in. That author noted that people tend to behave _less_ rationaly and harmoniously when under greater deal of stress.

    But what I’m seeing in the markets and many other aspects of society is that greater numbers of people are not behaving very rationaly or harmoniously as it is. If I were in charge. . . LOL. Unfortuneately, my rational mind thinks we’re heading into another dark age. People (the masses) seem to desire that more controlled environment. Who am I to take that away from them?

    Here’s hoping that we can laugh at these thoughts in ten or twenty years. “Remember when makia thought. . . HAHAHA!” On another side of that, I would say that the seeds that got man out of the dark ages were planted before that period started. No positive action can be considered in vain. That would discount the oneness of the universe. Negative action, on the other hand, only slows life down. It can’t hold back LIFE.

    “Remember when makia said. . . HAHAHA! It’s good that he meant well.”

  152. bp October 24, 2006 3:10 pm

    Makia, I too have read those studies on mass hysteria - usually seem to be connected with the breakdown of social belief systems - hopefully if it comes, we (all that are trying to keep their sanity) won’t get swallowed up in the madness - perhaps the world needs to “wander in the wilderness for a couple generations” to free itself of theses destructive belief systems, but…doesn’t sound like fun to me.

    Remember when Makia said….LOL, it’s good to laugh, if I couldn’t laugh I’d go probably go insane : )

  153. kastor October 24, 2006 9:18 pm

    Human beings will rarely have a meaningful existence outside of a tribal sized society. Most of us have been too far removed from the natural world and although we live longer due to technological advance in the industrial world, we live longer in settings that have robbed us of our understanding of life and death that happens in synch with the world. Sometimes it almost seems as if we don’t belong here, on this Earth, because we have not lived with it, we have only exploited in every way. One day we may wake up and find that all of that oil we pumped out of the ground served some purpose in the earth’s crust that we could have never comprehended. We keep taking and taking from this old world and we give nothing back to it except our dry bones. Massive death coming to the human race in the form of virulent pandemics is all but inevitable. It is the only way nature can truly solve it’s problem of an unyielding and selfish species while maintaining an equilibrium for the rest of the living planet. It is then and only then that we will remember we are an equal member in nature, equal to all other members. And thus, disposable.

  154. Makia October 25, 2006 2:50 am

    And that’s gotta make you laugh! AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Well, our race is still pretty hearty and resilient, even if the human apocolypse would occur, the worst you would have to worry about is dying. I’m sure some will survive. It does matter.

    My focus in this thread is keeping with these ideas and feelings that if problems of whatever scale occur, and if they don’t occur, it shouldn’t matter to how you conduct yourself. The context will change but the content will not.

    152#, bp, I think makes a salient point. We cannot go mad because we are already prepared. The world is mad as it is, and we as individuals (speaking on this humble post) have some sense of composure despite. We can build on this and learn from eachother, which is why I keep posting. Relationships are key whether speaking of money, family, or friends.

    However kastor’s words in #153 also ring pertinent. Hopefully we are all taking these things into our day-to-day in meaningful and wise ways - also loving.

  155. Dr Jane Karlsson October 25, 2006 4:03 am

    Sapiens, #147: yes, I actually meant to say currency expansion. You are right about ‘parking’.

  156. kastor October 25, 2006 4:18 am

    people who deal with death, in a close up and personal way, tend to appreciate the place love and kindess are supposed to have in life. The family farmer, who works the land and sees livestock die, or slaughters the same for food has an appreciation of the natural world, at least more than the city dweller. The soldier returning home from a killing field always feels born again and has a renewed appreciation for the little things in day to day life. It is the culmination of the hero’s journey, something all young men still strive for in one way or another. The closer one gets to death, through terminal illness or old age, the more one realizes what the important things were. These are instances where death is a teacher. The more sterile our lives become in the city, the further we remove thoughts of death from our minds, the more we step out of the muckiness of nature, the less human we become. There needs to be a renewed push to indoctrinate children in school to the reality/process of death and dying. They need to step into the mud and be made to feel nature and deal with the real messiness of the world beyond the pavement. Somehow, if this society is to come to some kind of normal function, an appreciation of death needs to be instilled. Can it be done through education processes, where there is not enough exposure to it elsewhere? Don’t know. Sure, people in the city, far removed from natural things are exposed to death on the news, for the most part. This is not to say that there is absolutely no exposure to death, given shootings and murders at schools and throughout the society but, the percentage of people who are personally influenced by these events is small over-all. The television has desensitised us to the point where we think of everything as a sitcom or drama with a tidy ending. Look at the way we watch war on the home screen. We know its bad and we know bodies are being blown apart evey day yet, we switch it out of our lives with a click. We are a virtual society. We can click in and out of stress as we choose and after clicking out of the world tradegies we watch on the home screen, we go deal with our lives in expectation of tidy endings and rationalizing narratives. When chaos emerges, we can no longer deal, we ’stay the course’, waiting and hoping for someone to write a solution to this sitcom we call life. If there were more mechanisms in this world to make sure children are exposed to the death of a pet or anything that will teach them, through experience, that life transforms to death, for all living things, then this is one way to bring a greater love for life into the world. Now, the religous influences in certain cases seem to bring a lust for death. religion sells the ‘hero’s journey’ to its sheep. Religion though helpful in some forms, is once again proving to be the bane of the human race when practiced on large scales. This is why I contend that we were never really designed/evolved to live any kind of rational existence beyong a tribal sized community. We can only rationally handle things on a smaller scale, these large scale plans and necesseties pertaining to society and power we find our human race in today are driving us over the edge. The pope has time to contemplate rationality. The average human being competing for survival does not give too much of a crap about rationality. Our leaders, religous and political, are going mad and they are dragging all of us to the cukoo’s nest with them.

  157. Dr Jane Karlsson October 25, 2006 5:13 am

    bp, #149: interesting article. He says about zero-point energy: ‘ … one thing is clear: if we turn our perception round and work to develop free energy with some Iraq-destined billions, we’ll lick the problem in a jiffy.’

    Some believe the problem has already been solved. They think the reason Bush won’t sign the Kyoto Treaty is this:

    ‘Knowing full well that planetary oil reserves will run dry in our own lifetimes … the secenario may well be to let the oil wells run dry; let there be power shortages, epidemics, starvation, and riots in the street; and then roll out the free energy generators that they have had secreted away all this time … with the US as the saviour, and also in total control of the big bailout.’

    Look up ‘Steven Greer Disclosure Project Kyoto Treaty’.

    Kastor: ‘Our leaders, religious and political, are going mad … ‘ Yes indeed. But there might be method in their madness.

  158. kastor October 25, 2006 5:36 am

    Let the wells run dry? free enrgy generators? Oil is used for many things beyond fuel for energy. we already have a source of energy that can meet the demands of transportation. It is called hydrogen and it is technically possible to make it happen now.

  159. Makia October 25, 2006 6:23 am

    Thanks Dr. Jane, but I think that line of thought confirms the heartless and/or egomaniacal and/or insane and/or selfish ways of thinking that the current leaders embody.

    If this is true that the U.S. has free energy capability and is willing to eventually use it, which I don’t beleive it is, do the ends justify the means? What if it is true, but the collapse does not go “as planned.”

    I’d rather live in an indigenous tribe if those are the people running the show. Gamblers and egomaniacs at best.

    What I could imagine is that the U.S. leaders do want to burn up all of the oil under the Middle East in order to collapse those economies. . . With many interested parties in that endeavor, some I’m sure with conflicting priorities.

    Interesting what kastor says about there being a geological function of oil in the earth that we are disturbing. That thought has come to me in the past. My take on that particular angle is that only the willfully ignorant are punished by the universe, accidental mistakes ignorance are (IMO) learning experiences (If I’d of known then what I know now. . .)

    On a different take on oil consumption, I think that the human role is incredible in transformation of the earth. I don’t know what net effect the carbon mono has on the atmosphere, but it is truly incredible (IMO) that a species of the earth could transform the composure is such a fantastic way: An abundant liquid found inside the crust is extracted and then burned until there is little of it left in the crust, but the byproducts of the ignition are now above the surface. Wow!

    I look at it like maybe humans could destroy the atmosphere for us (and lots of other creatures, but LIFE will prevail, humans or no humans. Just ask T-rex et. al.

    One way or another kastor line of thinking in #156 I beleive is very pertinent to the discussion of creating a better world. Honestly, I also agree with his conclusions about a tribal way of life. But the way things are today, as I alluded to in a previous post, makes return to tribaliy and locality based way of life very difficult. The big monster is very willing to eat you up.

    We may not be able to change things in the short run, but I beleive that placing importance on these more spiritual and community based ideals makes the study of gov’t and economics meaningful, and the drawn conclusions much more powerful.

  160. Makia October 25, 2006 7:05 am

    be the 100th monkey

  161. bp October 25, 2006 4:42 pm

    ouch, I think this link has been buried

    Dr. Jane, I’ve read those references - lot of them around, I even hear we got the technology from aliens, but….for me that is neither here nor now - I’ll keep it in the back of my head for reference. If you really want to mess your head up check this site - http://rigint.blogspot.com/

    I figure one should let the dead bury the dead - fix your vision on the future you see coming and start living it - don’t worry about this other stuff.

  162. Dr Jane Karlsson October 26, 2006 5:01 am

    bp: ‘If you really want to mess your head up check this site … ‘ Thanks, I checked it out and I like it. I messed up my head with this stuff long ago. I have concluded from mountains of books on the subject that actually, these aliens might be planning to do us all a favour.

    As one UFO researcher says: The aliens’ job is to make fools of people, and they are very, very good at it.

    Whether they’re real or not is immaterial, as you imply. What’s important is what Bush and Blair believe about them. They believe that alien technology will save the world.

    The ‘aliens’ operate like this: they tell some people they are Chosen Ones, get them to dress up in funny clothes and make weighty pronouncements about the nature of the universe, make magical tricks happen for them, and then say the world’s going to end, go up on top of that mountain and wait for us to rescue you. They do this, and absolutely nothing happens.

    They do this kind of thing over and over again. That’s what I think they have planned for Bush and Blair.

    Like it?

  163. bp October 26, 2006 12:43 pm

    heheh, Dr. Jane - that’s funny - if they are trying to make fools out of people they’re doing a good job, but I have to wonder if these people need any help to make fools out of themselves.

    If you have read tons o’ books on aliens, have you read Dolores Cannon’s “the Convoluted Universe” - I thought that was interesting as it opened up a lot of possibilities, and I like to see the possibilities, just to stay on my toes.

  164. Dr Jane Karlsson October 27, 2006 7:00 am

    No I haven’t, but I’ve read quite a bit along those lines.

    Can I ask you something? And of Michael, and anyone else who’s listening. I keep coming across references to M3, and the reason the Fed doesn’t anymore publish M3 figures being because it wants to hide how much money it’s ‘printing’ to keep the markets from crashing.

    But I thought this money was actually Chinese and Japanese dollars that China and Japan buy to keep their currencies down.

    Please will someone tell me, what is the relationship between M3 and these Chinese and Japanese dollars?

  165. bp October 28, 2006 6:00 am

    Dr Jane I suspect you may be referring to eurodollars - check the entry here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply

    but for a detailed explaination Michael or Rich would be able to help, but…I think they are off chasing the market right now - you can check with them at the current Jesse Livermore post

  166. Dr Jane Karlsson October 28, 2006 6:57 am

    bp, many thanks, you are a hero. Eurodollars was the one I was wondering about.

    The background to this is that everything one reads about the expansion of the money supply assumes this happens as a result of ‘printing money’ by central banks, especially the Fed. But it seems to me that the Fed just does what all banks do, which is borrow money from one set of people and lend to another. In this case, it’s borrowing from the Chinese/Japanese, and lending to the commercial banks.

    You may remember from my #61 on this thread that I am suggesting the expansion actually comes from charging interest at a rate above the inflation rate. I have nowhere come across a discussion of this.

    The reason this is so important is because of what happened in the early 1980s here in the UK. Margaret Thatcher was told that increases in M3 meant inflation, and you had to put up interest rates if M3 rose. She did, and M3 rose further, so she put up rates again. This went on until they reached 17%, and this destroyed much of British industry.

    How can this have happened? Did people take money out of the stock market in response to the higher interest rates and put it on deposit to earn the interest, so it went into M3?

    And why did Thatcher think increases in M3 caused inflation? It seems that it was because of something that happened in the early 1970s. In 1971 there was a big peak in M3, whose cause I have not been able to ascertain, and two years later there was a big peak in inflation. The monetarists thought the one had caused the other.

    But many economists think the inflation peak was actually caused by increases in commodity prices, especially of oil: the first oil shock was in 1973.

    So you see, my suspicion is that the standard economic policy of using interest rates to control inflation is based on nothing more than a silly mistake.

    Your views would be greatly appreciated.

  167. bp October 28, 2006 6:53 pm

    Hi Dr. Jane,

    this is an area that has interested me - perhaps we should request Michael to add a tab for economics to his wiki site, but then maybe his tab for Money would cover this discussion ( http://betterplace.bullnotbull.com/index.php?title=Talk:Money&action=edit)

    I can understand somewhat your concern about interest rates, but have you considered the problems that occur with a debt-based monetary system - see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-based_monetary_system

    and in particular a fractional reserve system- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking_system

    To lend more money than a bank holds in reserves creates a danger of collapse - once banks need to call in loans this creates a cascading domino effect that unless somehow stemmed can lead to economic collapse - kind of like a Ponzi scheme - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

    From what I gather, oil is denominated in US dollars, that is one has to use US dollars in oil exchange transactions, hence the need for Eurodollars - my impression is that domestic US economic theories aren’t too effective since global economics and finance are left out of the equation.

    It seems part of the reason so many Eurodollars are out there is the imbalance of trade for the US - basically it seems the Fed is printing money to cover the trade imbalance and this money is worth less as time goes by and more money is printed - so I would think that an increase in M3 would imply inflation.

    Since oil seems to have taken the place of gold as a source of standard value, and can only be valued in dollars, it gives the US some leverage in getting countries to buy our bonds, or to take payment in dollars that are not backed by gold anymore.

    So perhaps we need to bring the trade deficit and how that affects M3 and inflation into your equation.

    I don’t understand your comment - “it’s interest that makes the money supply grow.” Can you explain that a bit more - there was a site that people here referenced that had a story that suggested that interest actually eventually concentrated the wealth in the hands of the bankers, perhaps that is in the archives somewhere yet. Actually, I would think it would be fractional reserve banking that allowed the money supply to increase.
    To be honest,

    I’m sure others on this site could find much to fault in what I say - but then I am seeking clarification on these matters myself. Guess we need more input from others!

  168. Dr Jane Karlsson October 29, 2006 5:26 am

    Hi bp, wanna hear the rest of the story?

    Suppose that in the early 1970s, there was a group of very rich men who had a very specific reason for wanting to get a lot richer. They were members of the secret society network, and so had avenues through which they could make things happen.

    In l971, they collected together a large amount of cash and deposited in British banks so it would go into M3. M3 then rose.

    In 1973, they arranged for a rise in commodity prices, which produced inflation. They encouraged the monetarists to believe that the inflation came from M3 and not commodity prices.

    Then they persuaded the future prime minister Margaret Thatcher that inflation was a really really bad thing and had to be prevented at all costs. All she had to do was raise interest rates whenever M3 rose.

    So she did it. Voters didn’t like it because they lost their jobs, so the very rich men arranged a small war to restore her popularity. This was the Falklands War, and it made her so popular she won two more elections.

    Now, consider this: these very rich men have a huge stash of money on deposit earning COMPOUND interest. And whenever they put more in, interest rates will rise so they make even more. Inflation has been abolished because producers don’t anymore dare pass on their rising costs, so the value of this money doesn’t go down. And the process even creates new borrowers (the poor producers) to pay the interest.

    So why did the very rich men want to get richer? Well, if any of the above is true, it would have been to invest in development of new technology. If you look up Philip Corso on Google, you will find information that may persuade you it was alien technology.

    Steven Greer says his alien-inspired zero-point energy project is backed by the Rockefellers. And there is at least a billion USD involved.

    So what’s happening now? Why haven’t we heard anything about Greer’s project although he said in January 2003 it would be up and running later that year? Have the ‘aliens’ done what I suggested in #162?

    The aliens who claim to be behind Uri Geller’s magic, who call themselves the Council of Nine and have very rich and influential followers, say Israelis like Geller are special magical people who can make things happen with their minds. It is my suspicion that this is why the US supports Israel.

    Now, the Israelis were supposed to win the recent war in Lebanon, and they certainly killed a lot of people and smashed things up, but they didn’t win. To people who believe in magic, this would mean Israelis have ‘lost their magical power’, and the signs are that Israel is being quietly dumped.

    That means, maybe plans for attacking Iran have been shelved. So how come Rove is so sure the GOP will win the election? Must be the stock market boom. But so far, no sign that’s making any difference to the polls. Well, what about a stock market crash, then? A really really big one? Don’t people rally round their government in times of fear and uncertainty?

    If the Very Rich Men are having to cope with the failure of their alien technology projects, they can’t forever stop the markets from crashing. So why not put the crash to good use? If, that is, they can find someone to blame for it. Iran, perhaps? Or maybe the Democrats, if the crash comes after the election and not before?

  169. Makia October 29, 2006 3:31 pm

    Thanks Dr. Jane. I beleive you are on the right track, but Ithink that the Very Rich Men have other ideas besides getting richer. I also beleive their plans are much bigger than a few years in either direction, or even a few decades. I think that the Israel/Lebonon war, as well as the Democrat/Republican wars are more of a ruse than things we can use to see what is really going on. We could go into that quite a bit. Suffice to say that sometimes (if not most often) what we see as a power struggle is actually a distraction from what is really happening.

  170. bp October 30, 2006 8:11 am

    Makia, #169, could you expand on that thought - I see references about the connection of the very powerful to some very disturbing areas, such as former Nazi experiments in mind control, the occult, drug money, arms sales, etc.

    Do you have some insight in this area that you could share? - what do these people seek beyond money and power? and, if you don’t mind my asking, where are you picking up your info - there are so many cross currents of info, including disinformation initiatives, it is hard to sort out fact from fiction

    Dr, Jane - I checked out Philip Corso and Steven Greer on Google - thanks - I’ve seen similar info out there - again it is hard to sort out fact from fiction - an interesting story of big money involvement in nefarious operations is this story - http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/102706.html

  171. Makia October 30, 2006 6:03 pm

    bp. . . I have very little valuable insight that could be trusted any more than your amateur conspiracy theorist. I think that’s what makes me more credible to myself. . . . I’m just an average (poor) guy with an average job, a wife and 1.5 kids. I don’t want to live in a world/economy/nation-state/world-gov’t that’s being manipulated in secret. But if I was given the arbitrary choice of being ignorant or being clued in to things I wish weren’t there, I choose the latter. I’ve made that choice.

    I can’t prove anything myself. I’m too busy being an average guy to research conspiracy theories. However, and this is a great priority IMHO, common sense and awareness of self and others are very useful to the average guy.

    Using this awareness, I’ve been led down a path for many years where I’m exposed to things in a timely and (i think) appropriate manner. Recently, I’ve come across (given, actually) some very interesting thoughts and material from a source, his name was Bill Cooper, you may have heard of him. The book I read (you may be familiar with it) is old by many standards, but I found it highly relevant. But see, my personality is not to go after or into these topics with abandon. I am amazed that this material came into my life at this time, seemingly unrelated to my study that I’ve been putting into economics; but at a distance it seems QUITE related.

    Bill had a lot of “proof” of a lot of things. He also was misled and jumped to conclusions on some things. I feel that anyone who tries to figure out “what’s really going on” will find those same experiences. Bp, you make a highly relevant point, I beleive, when you mention “disinformation initiatives.” _Awareness and common sense_ tell me upfront that this is what one should expect to encounter.

    Using said “awareness and common sense” and personal responsibility, I don’t think its appropriate, for me anyway, to delve deep into “what’s really going on.” Although I am there for anyone who has the time/money to do so.

    bp, you ask, “What do these people seek beyond money and power?” That is something I think is very interesting to talk about, so thanks for enetertaining my caveats.

    I guess the most important thing is that power and money are different; and secondly, the Very Rich Men have a complicated system of self-deception/cooperation/competition. I consider myself to be somewhat self-aware and independant, but those like me are perhaps unfortuneately but perhaps inevitably at this time rare. I’ll balance that self-perception by saying that I cannot be independant because my life means nothing without others, especially my family and friends. I would not choose first to be alone; but I do relish independant thinking - and then focus my mind on the needs of the community. And temper my mind with the desires of the community. The Rich Men, by-and-large, do not carry this degree of awareness. They were simply born into “privledge” and “power” and that is all they know. They are highly intelligent in MANY instances, but most do not carry this sense of connectedness as motivation.

    That is my opinion anyway. A wise man once described the men behind the curtain by saying, “I do not beleive that any of them wake up in the morning and say, ‘How can I be evil today?” I think that, by and large, they are as ignorant as the masses of true awareness, and they rationalize their behavior just like the “average” man does. Another thing to consider is that many of the higher-ups were born into their positions, and they are being used by even-higher-ups. Very few of these people actually realize what they are helping to accomplish. Myself, I can give this super-power structure the benefit of the doubt of ignorance, but I also feel that it is very important to stop them.

    What are “they” trying to accomplish? Some are trying to get back to their “rightful” thrones. Some are just pure capitalists tring to get the biggest peice of the pie. Some are trying to defend against alien invaders. Some are trying to save the Earth from the human infestation. Some are trying to save us vis-a-vis the second coming. And there are otherinfluences as well. Many of these are interconnected to some of the players, but seperate to most of them. There are hierarchies. Who knows what the REAL truth is. I think I know, but what do I know?

    Money and power are not as important to these “highest-ups” as us “average people”. Using that “awareness” I’d think that once you do have so much money and influence, your thoughts might turn to the “average man’s” dilemma of saving the world, talking to aliens, or maybe just getting people to do what you want, just for the sake of doing it. I don’t know.

    What do you guys think? Also, I think its a slight act of courage to talk about these things openly (paranoia). I envoke the lessons of the MATRIX (yes, the movie), and of Jesus (yes, that guy from Nazareth). BTW, I don’t consider myself christian in the popular sense. Pardon my rambling.

  172. kastor October 30, 2006 6:27 pm

    Re, 159 Makia, We become tribal in our neighborhoods and walled communities. Economic, racial, ethnic and other differences continue to set up tribal boundaries for all of us even within the realm of the big monster. Zones of comfort we are conditioned with in childhood become our places to retreat to in adulthood. Gangs who run the cities, unions, secret societies, political parties,,,, are all retreats into tribal zones where we feel we can cope. None of us really like, condone or appreciate big government because it becomes the monster that we can’t cope with. The monster in time of war, is most often successful at pulling us together as a tribe and setting us all to dancing to the beat of war drums, as a tribe at war.

  173. Makia October 30, 2006 6:45 pm

    Very visceral kastor re:172. I’ve got to like it. However, survivalist is my M.O., and I’m not sure how that train of thinking moves me forward. It does have a feeling of sustenance, though, and that is powerful. We, as bipeds, need to be in touch with our reptile brain. Thank you.

  174. kastor October 30, 2006 9:03 pm

    The reptile brain, yes it is still alive and well. Tribes are after all the most basic unit of social organization beyond the immediate family. Where do you sleep at night? Amongst those you consider tribe mates? Who do you eat food with? people you feel a connection to? Why do we choose to go into one door and not the other door? Human connections as they relate to our feelings of safety are the lining to everything we do or don’t do. We are all tribe members or tribe seekers living in an over grown and disconnected society with the only constant being the police power of the various levels of government. Familiar with the term white flight? It is nothing more than regressing to more familiar environs, the environs you were conditioned to feel safe in as a child. Everything we do is ultimately driven by our tribal tendencies and we don’t even know it. Even though we must cope in the monster, we could not always function were it not for the fact that we retain the tribal instincts passed down through time and nurtured within us as we develop. If we did not view most things we do in terms of a tribal connection we would be paralyzed in indecision. Personal identity is a mere reflection of the tribal molding. We are more driven by our reptile brain than most would care to admit.

  175. Makia October 31, 2006 5:45 am

    I agree that these behaviors are primitive, but they do not come from the reptile brain. The community instincts that are “programmed” into us come from the paleo-mammalian brain. The reptile brain is also very powerful (and goes way under the radar for most) and embodies our pure survival instincts and fight-or-flight mechanisms. The mammalian brain grew out of that, to enhance the survival of the mammals.
    The major importance of our “below reason” instincts are definately important, or should be important, to reasoning humans. The self-defense applications that I shared earlier in this thread (external self-defense is essentially the same as a strong immune system, and when pursued “properly” they denote each other) must take the “lower” brains into consideration for awareness and development. This makes for a human with more day-to-day inherent potential. This is a good thing.

  176. bp October 31, 2006 7:14 am

    kastor #174 per your comment - “If we did not view most things we do in terms of a tribal connection we would be paralyzed in indecision. Personal identity is a mere reflection of the tribal molding.”

    my guess is that the “tribe” that one identifies with fluctuates with external conditions - in times of less tension/stress we can identify with a broader sense of “tribe” - say the human race. Put under external stress the tribe we identify with narrows, driven by security needs. I figure we are entering such a stressful world situation that the definition of tribe for individuals will be considerably narrowed. Trust in others is disappearing.

    So I guess we are on a elevator riding up and down sections of the brain - as stress increases we will see a lot of people functioning in the reptile centers of the brain where “tribe identity” may actually disappear, ugh. Hopefully if we enter a “dark age” we will emerge and continue to develop azs a race.

    makia #171 - I can understand your comment - “I am amazed that this material came into my life at this time, seemingly unrelated to my study that I’ve been putting into economics; but at a distance it seems QUITE related.”

    I have been amazed how certain info has come to me when I was not suspecting it - some very disconcerting. I can relate to your sense of paranoia, but I figure there are a lot bigger problems for these people to worry about than me. as for what i think lies behind these people - I would have a tendency to agree with you, their motives vary…but in a sense they are similar - usually their motives are life denying, they are absorbed in their ego drives with no sense of connection to the rest of life/existence - what is that word - nilistic?

  177. Dr Jane Karlsson October 31, 2006 7:50 am

    bp, thanks for the interesting link. I’ve read about the Nazi experiments in mind control too, and also testimony from people like Cathy O’Brien, Brice Taylor, Cisco Wheeler and ‘Svali’ which taken together make a pretty powerful case that it’s still happening.

    Makia, I’ve read Bill Cooper’s Behold a Pale Horse too, and had the same response you did.

  178. Makia October 31, 2006 8:57 am

    Well pu bp:176. I think you get what I’m saying very well. The motives of the “higher-ups” are very similar to anyone else that we are familiar with, they just have different resources. What you say about “no connection to the rest of life/existence,” I also agree with, but I’m sure many of them wouldn’t. Some of them, in fact probably do have a sense of a bigger connection, but they are surrounded by ignorant people (peers) just like us. As far as paranoia, if I experience it, it doesn’t keep me from posting provocative comments on a public post. I dont know what that is; either tempering paranoia - or maybe courage. I suppose practicaly speaking, just like you said bp, they’ve got bigger things to worry about than us. But who? Most people aren’t willing or able to see the injustices that are perpetrated upon us by our U.S. gov’t (constitutionally speaking). The only ones “they” have to worry about are the few of us that do speak up against these crimes. Aliens or no aliens, the gov’t and the economy we live in was expressly prohibited by the constitution, or should I say, “The Constitution.” All these people who are so “proud” of being citizens of “the greatest country in the world” are blind to the real reason it should be great and the real reasons it is economically powerful.

    Paranoia or no paranoia, I’m an open book, and I try and teach by example, not by mandate. I don’t have anything to hide; and I have a sense that we are all human.

  179. bp October 31, 2006 5:37 pm

    makia 178 - yeah I would have to agree about people - I figure we are all infected with ego to a greater or lesser extent - I am hoping it is just an adolescent stage humanity is going through, I’m hoping for “Childhood’s End” where we all start maturing emotionally, but I suppose it will be in a Bell Curve fashion, some small percentage of the population reaching a higher level of maturity and over time a gradual increase in the percentage of the population that reaches this higher level of maturity. Too slow for me, guess I still need more maturity to accept how slow things develop.

    I don’t know about the rest of you, but right now I feel like I’m in a roller coaster slowly chugging up the hill before the first big drop.

  180. Makia October 31, 2006 5:57 pm

    Going with the flow is important. Don’t anticipate. What will be will be. I gave up prognosticating for a “living.” All of your power in in the present momment.

  181. Dr Jane Karlsson November 1, 2006 5:55 am

    Makia, I’ve just re-read your #171, and I really like it. Some deep things there.

    Kastor, #174, and bp, #176, ditto.

  182. bp November 1, 2006 8:19 am

    just a note Dr. Jane - there are some interesting posts right now over on the comments for the jesse Livermore blog concerning inflation, collapse, etc.

  183. Dr Jane Karlsson November 2, 2006 7:40 am

    bp, thanks, I’ve just been reading them. See you there.

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