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Election Open Thread

Posted on November 5, 2006
Filed Under Uncategorized |

As voting day nears, what is on your mind?

Are you a registered Republican, Democrat, Independent, or not registered? Please vote in the poll to the right, and down below the ads —>

Leave any comments on the election below. Everything is open for discussion, nothing off limits.

Let’s all be respectful to one another and remember that we’re all humans first (I was going to say Americans, but there are lots of international friends here as well) (isn’t the internet great?)



Comments are closed. Thank you.


102 Comments so far
  1. Gemstocks November 5, 2006 8:30 pm

    I think Lou Dobbs is right. The Diebold machines can not be trusted. The election will be fixed or inconclusive.

    I remember in 1999 when the election results were held up, waiting a recount or a judgement by the Supremes. My aunt was visiting me that Nov.

    Her only son, Warrant Officer James E. Cummings, Jr., U. S. Army, had died in Phouc Vinh, South Vietnam in November of 1969.

    In 1969 he was a helicopter pilot, my little brother was in the Army engineers in Vietnam, and I was an anti-war activist in Berkeley.

    Now in 1999, both my aunt and I were glued to the news, waiting to see if Gore or Bush would get the nod. She was a Bush supporter and I backed Gore.

    It was a very tense time, taking me back to a time when my whole family was divided over a war. I don’t really know what thoughts her grim expression hid.

    I don’t want to go back to that time, back to 1969 or 1999. I don’t think she was very comfortable either.

    I hope we get a very clear victory on Wednesday morning. I hope the Exit Polls agree with the vote count.

    Unfortunately, I don’t think it will play out that way. We have reached the point where the other side only cares about winning. They no longer believe in small government or balanced budgets. The only thing that matters to them is control.

    I think next week will be grim too, like my aunts face was in Nov. 1999.

  2. larry November 5, 2006 9:48 pm

    i think no clear voting outcome wednsday and the markets shudder….oh,when will they ever learn.. when will they eeever learn….

  3. dave November 6, 2006 12:32 am

    Why should essentially powerless people want to engage in a humiliating farce designed to demonstrate the legitimacy of those who wield the power?
    The U.S. has two entrenched, systemically corrupt political parties, whose positions are often indistinguishable, and which together hold a monopoly on power.

  4. zephyr November 6, 2006 6:28 am

    I’m nearly 42 and I’ve never missed an election. I have switched affiliations several times over the years so that I could vote in the primary I felt was more important.

    Everything has become a joke. There are no real choices and it is painfully obvious now that votes can be altered. Where is some form of outrage? I live in Connecticut and have met Joe Lieberman several times (I used to work in the local TV news stations) and I used to have great respect for the man. No longer…not even close. What has happened to Lieberman and John McCain? They seem to have lost their souls, been brainwashed, been threatened with their lives or been replaced with clones….because these are not the same men.

    Lamont is laughable….I know the Republican candidate Schlesinger. He’s a decent man with some good ideas….and he’s a moderate (which we need more of) ….meaning he doesn’t hold the party line when their issues don’t make sense. And that’s why his own party has abandoned him. I mean, think about it. Republicans despise Democrats, but they are the ones supporting Joe Lieberman in this close, crucial Senate race? What does that tell you??? Lieberman is a shell of the man he used to be. It also tells you there are so many things going on behind the scenes that we don’t know, but can make an educated guess.

    I’m back to being an independant, after a brief foray in my town’s political system. I tried to get involved to make some sort of difference. That was eye-opening. It’s not about doing what’s right, but about power and ego and favors and influence. That’s why there are so few good people in politics. I read a quote once that said something like…”the people that should be in politics are the ones that have no desire to do it”. Meaning, they don’t crave power or attention. And another thing, alot of these people aren’t very bright to say the least.

    You know who became mayor in my town? A local restaurant owner. Knows shit about running a town, but was put up as a candidate because he’s likeable and because of name recognition. Does that sound familiar? Know who bacame mayor in the town next door? An old high school football hero. People are idiots. Like Don Henley sang, “We get the government we deserve”. Put someone popular and pliable on the ticket and then the people behind the scenes can pull the strings.

    I’ll vote again but it will be for some obscure party candidate. The whole charade disgusts me. The powers that be used to try to hide the fact that they were fucking you….now they revel in in, flaunt and taunt you with it. What a delight this thing called democracy is.

  5. ronandreas November 6, 2006 6:56 am

    It makes little sense that well-qualified anti-war Green Party Senate candidates in states like Wisconsin, New York and California – where pro-war incumbent Democrats are projected to win by a huge majority – have failed to get much popular support. A strong showing by the Green nominees would send a powerful and badly-needed message to Washington without jeopardizing a Democratic victory.

  6. Rich November 6, 2006 7:06 am

    I’d vote for dave, post #3.

    Cheers Rich

  7. ronandreas November 6, 2006 7:13 am

    Washington Denies Hand In Timing Of Saddam Verdict

    (RTTNews) - The US on Sunday has refuted allegations that it had any hand in the timing of the death sentence to former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and said Iraq’s judiciary was operating “independently”. The idea that “somehow we’ve been scheming and plotting with the Iraqis” is “preposterous”, White House spokesman Tony Snow said.


    I’m glad I don’t have Tony’s job.

  8. Sapiens November 6, 2006 8:06 am

    The US on Sunday has refuted allegations that it had any hand in the timing of the death sentence to former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein

    Hmm, the more you come to realize the old cliche is true: “Actions, not words.”

    Fact is, like Stranger said, “a Sunday verdict – how blatant can you get?”

    They even gave themselves enough time to make it to all the media channels for people to see it before the election.

    Actions, not words!


  9. John G November 6, 2006 8:24 am

    I think the main stream media and wild-eyed extremists on the left and right are missing one important fact. The American electorate has a deep reserve of wisdom that transcends party affiliations and divisive issues. By and large people elect sound candidates and sometimes that requires making the diffificult choice between two political “evils”.

    Are today’s elections “rigged”? No more than what happened in the Chicago precincts in 1960 that put JFK in office, or the silliness in Kolyfonia today where ballots cast often exceed the number of registered voters. Every election has some of that and over time it balances out.

    Just for the record, I’m an independent who voted for Bush in ‘04 because Kerry, IMO, was the greater evil. Throw away all the pre-conceived notions for ‘08. I think a guy named Obama will be our next President.

  10. Makia November 6, 2006 8:36 am

    I try and explain to people why I don’t vote. It is not healthy to live a life where the most patriotic thing you do is widely recognized as “choosing the lesser of two evils.”
    Even the majority of people who do vote know the futility of the choice they make, and yet they try and sit on some kind of high, patriotic horse. The most patriotic thing I can do is be honest with them and myself; and tell them that I’ve studied the constitution, and I pay close attention to politics, government, and economics, and the most patriotic thing I can think of is to not vote. To not ACT like the majority of these candidates aren’t liars and/or personable imbeciles with nice suits. To not act like I can honestly tell who is lying and what they are lying about.
    But actually the real losers are the people who do vote, the ones that act like “everthing isn’t perfect but its the best country in the world.” And the real losers are the masses who’ve never taken the time to learn how criminal our goverment is, and the ones who want the government to take care of them, and the ones who bitch and complain about these things (politics, taxes, money) but don’t know the first thing about the constitution, or the legal system, or history, or the “free market” economy, and don’t want to know, and the real losers are everyone who has taught their children that the goverment is basically benevolent and that corporations give everyone the chance of a better life. People have no idea what a better life really is.

    The healthiest thing I can do with integrity is not vote. I don’t mind at all that people vote, but what is the next step? How is it going to happen where our government _actually_ loses is legitamacy and can no longer waste our hard earned money? How is it going to happen that our money system loses its legitimacy and the truth that our money is worth the paper its printed on becomes evident to these masses who have been ignorant for so long?

    I don’t know how it will happen. Many people will deal with it in whatever way they feel like. A part of me hopes that the day is soon; the good days are already over, lets get on with it. My advice to all you voters: have fun and enjoy your habit.

  11. Jay November 6, 2006 10:25 am

    “The American electorate has a deep reserve of wisdom that transcends party affiliations and divisive issues.”

    I used to believe that, but when Bush was re-elected in ‘04, it became obvious how easily fooled and blind the electorate truly is.

  12. BudBuddy (red state product of incest) November 6, 2006 10:50 am

    No coincedence of Saddam verdict yesterday nor will be his execution on 1 Nov 2008 ……..

    We have all of two parties to pick (legit) candidates from…. democracy??????

    Try this; elect the pres. and senators… however, for the House, do it by lottery - anyone over 16 years old without a felony record that wishes to serve, put your name in the hat……..

    Think about it….. House would be truly ‘representative’…..

    Logistics - lottery winners get trained for a year and then serve two.. guranteed to have old jobs back, etc.

    Hopefully, some real leaders (not just the rich kids) will emerge as bonafide Senate or Pres. choices.

    Initailly, government will be ineffective in getting new stuff done….. this ain’t bad, since the only thing they seem to be capable of now is to go into more debt….

    Pass this along to the masses…….

  13. Cornhusker November 6, 2006 11:12 am


    Please read this 3-page essay in its entirety and let’s all delve deeper into the longer term implications of what “we’ve” allowed to happen over the past 300-years. Much of this stuff I already knew, but when it’s all thrown in your face at the same time…wow…I’m shaking my head in utter amazement right now.



  14. Cornhusker November 6, 2006 11:14 am

    By the way, I suggest we all “delve deeper” next week, after all the election excitement fades away.

    Michael, I’d love to read your thoughts in a new thread related to the contents of the article from http://www.xat.org.

  15. Makia November 6, 2006 11:54 am

    Yeah, I like the idea BudBuddy. Pretty innovative. My take is run-off voting. Then votes could actually count for what people want them to count for, instead of default “a vote against the other guy,” another way of saying, “the lesser of two evils.”

    My bottom line on that is pretty significant and it’s this: The “powers that be” know about runoff voting and they have no interest in letting it become a popular idea. Until you see these guys show REAL democratic ideals that they supposedly hold dear, and PATRIOTISM by letting such a commonsense idea become the new Way, and true Leadership by putting us before them, we will all be able to clearly see what chickensh*t elitist powermongers they are.

  16. FeelingWeird November 6, 2006 12:59 pm

    Makia and Post number 10

    Great post!! We have so many smart people here… Elect Michael, and he can appoint us all to his cabinet…

    I love nepitism..

    Robert NW Ohio

  17. Sapiens November 6, 2006 1:20 pm

    Dr Jane,

    “Taking into consideration everyone on the island as a whole,” he mused, “are we capable of meeting our obligations? Oliver turned out a total of $1000. He’s asking in return $1080. But even if we bring him every dollar bill on the island, we’ll still be $80 short. Nobody made the extra $80. We turn out produce, not dollar bills. So Oliver can take over the entire island, since all the inhabitants together can’t pay him back the total amount of the capital and the interest.

    “Even if a few, without any thought for the others, were able to do so, those others would fall. And the turn of the first spared would come eventually. The banker will have everything. We’d better hold a meeting right away and decide what to do about it.”

    There isn’t enough currency to cover everyone’s obligations, some must default if the banker does not roll over the loans, someone must keep borrowing to keep the system going.

    I would believe the above to be easily understood, I guess it’s not.

    about the videos, it is a retelling of this:




    P.S. I can’t help the gut feeling that you are playing with us… Don’t know what it is…

  18. Jay November 6, 2006 2:11 pm

    Here is an essay that refutes the Federal Reserve System is secretly owned and covertly controlled by powerful foreign banking interests. Any thoughts?


  19. Administrator November 6, 2006 3:33 pm

    Hi Jay,

    That is an interesting article for what it actually does say, more so than what it does not. The author could not establish foreign ownership in the Fed because(commenting on a previous researcher’s work):

    Unfortunately, Mullins’ source for the stockholders of the New York Fed could not be verified. He claimed his source was the Federal Reserve Bulletin, although it has never included shareholder information, nor has any other Federal Reserve periodical. It is difficult researching this particular claim because a Federal Reserve Bank is not a publicly traded corporation and is therefore not required by the Securities and Exchange Commission to publish a list of its major shareholders.

    So while the author cannot establish that the owners are foreign, he has established that the owners are secret.

    Another telling passage:

    The Federal Reserve System certainly makes large profits. According to the Board’s 1995 Annual Report, the System had net income totaling $23.9 billion, which, if it were a single firm, would qualify it as one of the most profitable companies in the world. How were these profits distributed? By an agreement between the Board of Governors and the Treasury, nearly all of the Fed’s annual profits are paid to the federal government. Accordingly, a lion’s share of $23.4 billion, which represents 97.9 percent of the Federal Reserve’s net income, was transferred to the Treasury. The Federal Reserve Banks kept $283 million, and the remaining $231 million was paid to its stockholders as dividends.

    Hmmm. Almost $24 billion in profits. Why should a private company make a profit for providing a public service - the facilitation of trade through issuing money? The author makes the claim that most of the profits are transferred to the Treasury, but this is not cited. So how do we know this is true, if he just told us at the beginning that because it is not a public company, it is not held to account by the SEC?

    There is definitely something fishy here.

    - - -

    Robert - I don’t think I’m electable, but I hereby appoint everyone here to the role of changing the world!

    - - -

    BudBuddy - Excellent ideas! I also think that we need term limits for Senators, and that all campaigns should be publicly financed. No more of these elections going to the highest bidder. If you haven’t heard it there is an excellent interview with Lou Dobbs here about The War on the Middle Class: http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2006/11/20061101_b_main.asp

    - - -

    Finally, Cornhusker - I’ve been thinking about you recently - ever since you said in a comment a while back, “I’m all for capitalism, but…”

    My sentiments exactly. I don’t think that capitalism is at the root of our problems. I think it does come down to the monetary system, and private interests controlling the money supply and thereby being able to control every aspect of our lives. How does it come that in our so-called “democracy” the privately run Federal Reserve determines how much your house/car payment will be, and whether you will have a job or not?

    There is an excellent book called The Future of Money that I cannot recommend highly enough. Please go out and buy this book - I’ve quoted from it extensively in the past. One of the things he says in the book (though I can’t seem to find it right now - darn!) is something like, “Tell me the kind of society you want, and you can design a monetary system to achieve it.” There are different kinds of monetary systems, and when the current one goes to pieces we’re going to need a new, fair one.

    Yes, Cornhusker - I’m all about going deep. Once the elections are out of the way, it is going to be back down to business.

    - - -

    As for voting, I’ll be voting tomorrow and I’ll report on what I see. I’m going to hang out and try to talk to people and see what kind of machines they’ve got set up to steal the vote :). I’ll report back here tomorrow!

    Best of luck to all,

  20. Sapiens November 6, 2006 4:00 pm


    You beat me to the punch on Jay @ 18.

    I would like to add that there has not been an audit of the Fed. I would like to see one, like Ron Paul states:


    The Texas GOP platform also calls for a congressional audit of the Federal Reserve Bank, and demands full public access to the written minutes from Fed board meetings. Such an audit could at the very least serve to educate the American people about Fed inflation and the dangers of fiat currency. In Washington, the Federal Reserve System is virtually never discussed by Congress or the administration, despite its enormous impact on our economic well-being. Monetary policy is simply off the table as a political and policy matter for both national parties, but the Texas GOP recognizes the importance of sound money.

    Well, I have to fly half-way around the world, will check with you all soon.

    My best to you all, cheers,



  21. Makia November 6, 2006 4:26 pm

    Sorry Michael. Didn’t mean to imply you’re a loser. [blush] Enjoy your habit!

  22. Nish November 6, 2006 4:33 pm


    That’s is correct, DON’T is just as good as a vote as anything else. There more we believe our vote makes a difference the longer game goes on. The more we believe democrats will change things the longer the game goes on

    Games are good when you and I have a decent shot of winning. So my suggestion is to not vote. Give up this MATRIX that we live in. Give up faith in the dollar, start bartering with family and friends. Give up the dollar, buy gold, and solar panels , and land to grow your own food on and become independent of the government. start your own new government from the ground up.

    So I say again, DON’T VOTE, DON’T play this GAME. Play a game that you can win.

  23. Raz Amatazz November 6, 2006 6:49 pm

    “The American electorate has a deep reserve of wisdom that transcends party affiliations and divisive issues.”

    Please don’t take this the wrong way….but what a load of crap. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. The American electorate possess virtually no wisdom at all, operating instead purely on belief.

    The right is composed of two constituencies The first is the corporatists who are stealing as much as they can,as fast as they can. The second is the theocrats who believe that they are doing God’s work.

    The left is composed of a motley agglomeration of views with the common belief that our political system is on the level, and all that stuff that they taught you in sixth grade civics class is true

  24. muleskinner November 6, 2006 6:50 pm

    It doesn’t you any good to vote. There will never be any good government. It is a legalized mafia.

    ‘An election is a pre-arranged auction of already stolen property’

    It is useless to participate. The only thing that counts is that you vote, but your vote doesn’t count.

    It is disgusting that the political system has become so appalling.

    Millions of fools supporting useful idiots.

    What better example of government gone mad is there other than the stupid Republican Tom Delay?

    It’s as dumb as it can get.

    I’m going to go and vote though. I want one of those little stickers that says ‘I voted.’

    For who or for what? I don’t know anymore. It just doesn’t seem to matter that much anyways.

  25. muleskinner November 6, 2006 6:55 pm

    It doesn’t ‘do’ you any good to vote.

  26. Raz Amatazz November 6, 2006 7:02 pm

    Think about the crap that the voters believe
    for example:

    1)Money doesn’t buy votes.-ha ha ha ha ha ha sure

    2)There is a difference between the parties.- this one is the silliest, as if the PTB that bought the Republicans would somehow find it offensive to also buy the Democrats

    3)They really are “public servants”- If they haven’t caught a bullet in the head yet then they are not serving the public

    4) America could never experience a dictatorship.- yaeh open your eyes!

  27. Jay November 6, 2006 10:43 pm

    Regarding the Federal Reserve, this is their official statement concerning ownership:

    QUESTION Who owns the Federal Reserve?
    ANSWER The Federal Reserve System is not “owned” by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.

    As the nation’s central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the U.S. Congress. It is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms. However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by Congress, which periodically reviews its activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Also, the Federal Reserve must work within the framework of the overall objectives of economic and financial policy established by the government. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as “independent within the government.”

    The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation’s central banking system, are organized much like private corporations–possibly leading to some confusion about “ownership.” For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.


    Someone mentioned that the Fed is not audited, but I found this in their 2005 Annual Statement:

    The firm engaged by the Board of Governors
    for the audits of the individual and combined
    financial statements of the Reserve Banks for
    2005 was PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP (PwC).
    Fees for these services totaled $4.6 million. To
    ensure auditor independence, the Board of
    Governors requires that PwC be independent
    in all matters relating to the audit. Specifically,
    PwC may not perform services for the Reserve
    Banks or others that would place it in a position
    of auditing its own work, making management
    decisions on behalf of the Reserve Banks, or in
    any other way impairing its audit independence.
    In 2005, the Bank did not engage PwC for any
    material advisory services.


  28. Nadir November 7, 2006 12:25 am


    For over a year now I have read the posts/news articles on your web site with great alacrity but I have never posted because I didn’t believed I had anything to add to the cogent posts put forth by your regular commentators. However, I cannot stay silent any longer!

    1. I have never witnessed such manipulation in so many areas on such an enormous scale right before an election- the precipitous drop in the price of gas at the pump, the inflated DOW (which by the way just happened to shoot up over 100 points the day before the election), the announcement of Sadam’s impending demise, the purported lowest unemployment numbers ever (EVER)! What is the average dolt on the street going to think as he/she goes in to pull the lever for candidates that he/she knows absolutely nothing about? Hey, my 401k is up, inexpensive good-time motoring is back and every thing is rosy! Hey, maybe those Republicans know what they are doing after all! Absolute poppy-cock!!

    2. We no longer live in a republic- we certainly live in a plutocracy, and I opine that we live in a kleptocracy- we have been and are continuing to witness the wholesale liquidation of our country by a cadre of elites who are about the pull the plug and commence with the worst depression the world has ever seen. Our government has been usurped by a sordid group of brazen thieves and liars. There is absolutely no difference between the Republicrats and the Democans- our two party system of government is a three card monty game and the it’s completely rigged!

    3. Here in Texas, I voted early and I voted for anybody, ANYBODY, who was remotely outside of the system. I think the only chance any of us have at reclaiming OUR government is to vote the old guard out with great impunity.

    4. However, after voting on an electronic voting machine that left ABSOLUTLY NO PAPER TRAIL I believe I witnessed the death of one of my most fundamental rights as a citizen of the US- the right to elect my representatives. My vote is now nothing but ones and zeros, binary data that can be manipulated by anyone as it passes from my local precinct to the county then to the state. I have heard it said that anything of value can be audited- if this is true, my government has tacitly stated that my vote has absolutely no value.

    I LOVE this country. We enjoy rights that just under 250 years ago people only dreamed about, and I am watching these rights disappear faster and faster as this tyrannical neo-con government is taking them “in the name of security and to keep us safe”. I don’t fear Osama Bin Laden near as much as I fear our so-called “leaders”. We must change this system now or our children are going to inherit a police state and are ultimately going to be neo-plebeians, working the land that we used to own, stolen by a nefarious cadre of elites who want to reinstitute the feudal state that our forefathers adamently eschewed.

    Feel free to edit this post if it is too long! - Cheers

  29. Jim D - Canada November 7, 2006 3:26 am

    I have found your comments insightful and interesting.

    Things to make it more difficult for the PTB.

    Help your neighbour directly. Food, money and home improvements. Go in for a side of beef together direct from a farmer (who doesn’t use hormones).

    And #1 pay off all your debts.

    I’m Christian (its unfortunately a dirty word now). When I was in some tough luck working in a plant, my vehicle died. I had no money and a young family, It looked grim. A co-worker who is Pakistani Muslim came up to me and gave me enough money (no strings attached) to buy a used pickup and said you pay me when you can and not before. (Muslims also do not charge interest). It changed my view on Muslims that is for sure.

    I mentioned this story from my past in that all is not what is seems, and that a good deed destroys propaganda like no other thing.

    It is obvious that we cannot out-think or out-manuever the PTB. This is when perserverence and just plain stubborness in the face of it all becomes the logical choice. It takes a great deal of energy to maintain control, and the mere act of quiet resistance saps that energy. Go about your daily life, help your neighbours directly with labour and money. This reduces the PTB control (debt is an obligation to them) and also destroys the value of propaganda.

    BTW. That no interest thing the Muslims do must really get the PTB’s goat.

    Please vote for independent thinkers and in time by your actions your neighbours will too.

    Walk in the light.

  30. MersDad November 7, 2006 3:53 am

    It’s worth remembering that the fusion of corporate interests and an all-powerful central government under a lawless executive is called “Fascism.”

    As Joseph Stalin once said: “It is not the voters that decide the election, it is those who count the votes that decide the election….”

  31. Makia November 7, 2006 5:36 am

    I tell you all that I am frustrated and inspired. The frustration comes on an election day where the economy is being highly manipulated, and the “best new thing” in voting are electronic machines that leaave no receipt.

    I am frustrated that the people, the “common folk,” the citizens who work for a living and participate in the “democracy” defend it, having an idea that the gov’t and the economy is corrupt but defending it anyway, tooth and nail. They talk about the “greatest country in the world,” being ignorant, willfully and otherwise, that the men who gave their fortunes and risked their lives to escape tyranny and convice the citizenry to adopt a great experiment that took the power from the gov’t and the banks and entrusted it to the citizenry, that the men who died fighting WWII to defeat fascism, are ROLLING IN THEIR GRAVES.

    . . . Much like another man who was born in Nazareth once upon a time about 99.9% of the folks who invoke his name on a daily basis.

    This abomination of corrupt individuals has existed for a long time before the founding of our country, I know. The people were given a fighting chance and we’ve squandered it. Just like the people have squandered all the free energy in the fossil fuels.

    The inspiration is coming from reading these posts. I know we are not afraid to stand up for what makes right. IMO it takes some degree of courage to post these articulate comments posted here. We are not counter-culture, whatever the masses would like to beleive about us. Keep it up folks, and thank you all very much - honestly.

    God bless the pure of heart.

  32. Makia November 7, 2006 5:38 am

    We will need it.

  33. zephyr November 7, 2006 6:31 am

    I just got back from voting…here in Connecticut we still use the old-fashioned voting machines with switches and levers. Alas, I’ve learning we must advance with the times and go digital as well. After all, you can’t tamper with these old machines, which work fine. Ah, progress!

    Where did I put that “I voted” sticker? On the ass of my windpants. That should express how I feel.

    Nadir, welcome! You are absolutely correct in your statement that the plug will be pulled at some point, probably soon. Although the media says nothing about this, leaders are pushing for a NorthAmerican Union like the European Union. Congressman Ron Paul of Texas ( the only politician I trust ) writes about a super highway being built from Mexico thru the US up to Canada. The only way to incorporate a true one world currency/govt is to level the playing field. You have to incapacitate the “powerful” US. It may take years, but you have to lead them into massive debt, then pull the plug. Well, seems like the public has allowed themselves to take the bait. Remember the final line in The Devils Advocate? Pacino says, “Ah, vanity, my favorite sin.” The US took the debt bait because we feel privileged, entitled to live en masse like royalty. We took all the rope handed to us and now it’s time for the group hanging.

    How else to level the playing field? No real borders. Let all the Mexicans you can get into the country. That’s another reason I think 911 was an inside job. If terrorists were such a threat, we would seal our borders. But we don’t because there’s no real threat. The threat is from our leaders who slowly take away our rights. The same leaders who are massacring thousands of Iraqis for 1) the remaining oilfields on earth, and 2)to make a shitload of $$$ for the military industrial complex.

    In a sense, I am proud that so many of us are aware of what is truly happening in the world. Sadly, we are still vastly outnumbered by the lumpin, aka the sheep, the idiots so easily lead to slaughter. When they wake up, it really will be too late. And those of us that are aware aren’t organized, otherwise websites like this would be shut down. I guess they must laugh at us because in truth we have no balls to really fight our certain demise.

    Happy Election Day!!!

  34. muleskinner November 7, 2006 6:45 am

    Today is election deja
    vu. I mean, come on, do you really expect it to be honest and fair?

    Hardly, it is rigged, big time.

    You don’t have to vote for any of these idjets. They’re goofy in the head. Goofier than Goofy.

    Just look at them. It isn’t hard to see that they’re all goofy.

    They are our leaders. Look at the goofy look on George’s face. Listen to the goofy things he says. Any of it does not bear repeating.

    You voted for them… or did you?

  35. Makia November 7, 2006 7:18 am

    Thanks zephyr. Couldn’t have said it better myself. Except I have my doubts that the sheeple are going to wake up at all. Of course they’re gonna know that there are some big problems, but wake up to the real causes? Hmpfph. . . I dunno ’bout that. I really, Really wish I could say otherwise.

  36. Dr Jane Karlsson November 7, 2006 7:40 am

    Cornhusker, #13: I read the essay you mentioned, it’s excellent, and says a lot of things I’d read some years ago in Carroll Quigley’s 1966 book Tragedy and Hope, which it quotes at one point.

    But there is one idea which is at odds with Quigley’s.

    ‘ … Fractional Reserve Banking which translates to mean, lending out many times more money than you have assets on deposit. … Today banks are allowed to loan out at least ten times the amount they actually are holding …’

    Now, this is extremely important. I have read so many articles saying exactly this, I have lost count. But according to Quigley, banks lend ten times their CAPITAL, not ten times their DEPOSITS.

    Think about it: if they lent ten times their deposits, it wouldn’t be fractional reserve banking, because there would be no fraction on reserve. They lend 90% or so of their deposits, and ten times their capital.

    So, they don’t really ‘create money out of thin air and then charge interest on it’, as I have read so many times. They have a big pile of capital, without which they wouldn’t be allowed to set up shop as a bank, and then they borrow from one set of people (deposits etc) and lend to another. They CHARGE interest because they have to PAY interest.

    Please would everybody read the above and shout at me very loudly if I am wrong.

  37. Makia November 7, 2006 8:54 am


    “In a sense, I am proud that so many of us are aware of what is truly happening in the world. Sadly, we are still vastly outnumbered by the lumpin, aka the sheep, the idiots so easily lead to slaughter. When they wake up, it really will be too late. And those of us that are aware aren’t organized, otherwise websites like this would be shut down. I guess they must laugh at us because in truth we have no balls to really fight our certain demise.”


    That’s me laughing btw. We are pathetic. Gotta laugh at it. Guess you don’t have to, but it’s still pretty funny.

  38. Administrator November 7, 2006 9:11 am

    Dear Friends -

    I just got back from voting here in Mass. It is still very, very old fashioned: You use a black pen to fill in bubbles on a piece of paper!

    I want to thank all of you for contributing. Makia - there is no need to apologize to me. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone is free to express it and live by the rules they see fit for themselves. There is room for all of us in the world as long as we remain respectful of one another.

    Some observations: There were three People’s Initiatives on the ballot, which is one of the reasons I did go to vote. Peoples initiatives are the work of regular people just like us who go to the trouble to get issues on the ballot that they believe matter enough to spend their hard earned time on. My friend John Spritzler was working on organizing an initiative in a neighboring town (all the towns around Boston are so small!), and he commented that it is very difficult to get people to sign a petition because, among other reasons, so few people are registered to vote.

    Citizens initiatives are a good reason to vote. Since people just like us went to the trouble to organize them, the least we can do is go out and support them by voting. Question #2 is worth looking into: http://www.massballotfreedom.com/

    There was also a non-binding resolution on the ballot to express a yes/no opinion on whether the US should withdraw from Iraq immediately, and bring all the troops home. I don’t know how it got there, but I’m happy that it was there.

    Jim D #30 - thank you for sharing your experience. Your story is inspiring - I don’t think you can even begin to imagine how much - to people who are starving for truth.

    Nadir #28 - I LOVE this country, too. I agree with Makia that there are many ignorant people who have never set foot out of their backyard, but proclaim that the US is the “greatest in the world.” However, I have lived in other countries, and traveled extensively around the world. And you know what? I think America IS the best, in terms of the opportunities afforded to average people, in terms of the opportunities we give to the handicapped (think you’ll see a wheelchair lift on a bus in Japan, or ramps for the handicapped on sidewalks in Taiwan? Not likely.), in terms of the wealth we enjoy, in terms of the helpfulness, friendliness and optimism of Americans.

    The government that goes about killing people and making war in the world is another story, of course. We need to reign that in somehow. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and I’m glad to see everyone here taking an interest in our freedom!

    Back to voting - for those of you who think it is a farce, then make it a farce! Enjoy the farce! I voted for myself a few times on the write-in line! I was actually laughing in the booth (people must have thought I was crazy) as I imagined Ted Kennedy (who is up for reelection) winning his Senate seat with only 15% of the vote, but with 100% voter turnout.

    What kind of message would that send? I think voting for yourself is a better message than not voting at all, which can be interpreted in any number of ways. Not voting is generally interpreted not as outrage, but as apathy. “I don’t care enough to vote, so just go ahead and do whatever.” Voting for yourself at least sends the message that “I could do a better job.”

    No, voting is not perfect. As I said before, for me this election was about voting for gridlock, to slow down the government, and buy us more time - but it is not the end. Tomorrow the real work begins.

    Anyone who voted on an electronic machine with no receipt and hated it - YOU ARE NOT ALONE! Everybody feels that way, so it should not be hard to get an initiative going to change that. All we need is one - somewhere in the country - and it will spread like wildfire!

    Maybe I’m naive. Maybe one day I’ll be old and cynical, and I’ll start every sentence with, “The problem with that is…” But I’m not there yet. Approach everything with optimism and honest intent and good things come of it. Let me close with what Jim D. said:

    It is obvious that we cannot out-think or out-maneuver the PTB. This is when perserverence and just plain stubborness in the face of it all becomes the logical choice. It takes a great deal of energy to maintain control, and the mere act of quiet resistance saps that energy. Go about your daily life, help your neighbours directly with labour and money. This reduces the PTB control (debt is an obligation to them) and also destroys the value of propaganda.

    Lead with your actions - they speak louder than words. And remember at any given time we are all leaders for those around us.

    God bless all,

  39. the stranger November 7, 2006 9:18 am

    Time to vote. I always vote …yes, of course, and there’s no way to know; it could effect a change, locally at least. And I’ll feel better too. It is my Right to vote. It’s MY right! I have a duty…

    Spit it out! Spit it out! … oh my god, what was I thinking? I’m a runner now – must stay alert, got to stay awake, breathe, just breeeathe… ok, ok, no one will notice anyway, who would care. Well, the kids may notice; I’ve never missed an election. I taught them to vote; perhaps one will ask. It is my first real signal to them; actions are louder than words. …must protect.

    Must finish summary, some explanation. But I can’t distill that one the book; how do I encapsulate thirty? …it’s too much. …need more time. It could last a few more years; right? It’s possible. Anything’s possible! NO, it’s a mathematically impossible. We’re taking on too much water, the music’s still playing; entropy.

    The set-up is near complete; behind the scenes - the transfer, the pervasive ignorance, and the laws… geopolitical, no, use science or history; no, economics. Oh Christ! what was she saying anyway? What the fuck was she saying! Don’t take off the silver slippers? don’t take em’ off? you’ll be ok!?!  …it’s too long ago, its irrelevant now;

    Scarecrows burning, tin-man rusting, little people asking why
    Tin-man can’t help much now – monkey wings fill the sky
    Tin-man, broken heart, pumping crude; the lion was shot in the head
    Liberty lost her silver slippers, and soon she could be dead
    Greenback City was a bad, bad dream, pave the streets with gold
    Maybe we just missed the point; we could’ve taken the red brick road

    Now something’s coming, I fear
    Something’s coming, though it ain’t here
    It looks like lightning flashing over the hill
    But there’s stars in the sky, and I can see them still
    A crack, a rumble, a little bit faint
    Sounds like thunder, but I know it ain’t
    Something’s coming, I fear
    Something’s coming, though it ain’t here
    Something’s coming…

  40. Bill, Bartlesvile, OK November 7, 2006 10:01 am

    To show how uninformed the US voting public is, let me give an example of myself.

    2000 presidential election when Bush won, I had voted for Gore. I knew Bush was not qualified for the job, but consoled myself with the fact that Cheney had considerable experience in government, and he would advice and assist Bush to cover his ignorance. Little did I know what Cheney was and has used to undermine this nation.

  41. Rich November 7, 2006 10:49 am


    by Greg Palast
    for The Guardian (UK), Comment
    Monday November 6, 2006

    Here’s how the 2006 mid-term election was stolen.

    Note the past tense. And I’m not kidding.

    And shoot me for saying this, but it won’t be stolen by jerking with the touch-screen machines (though they’ll do their nasty part). While progressives panic over the viral spread of suspect computer black boxes, the Karl Rove-bots have been tunneling into the vote vaults through entirely different means.

    For six years now, our investigations team, at first on assignment for BBC TV and the Guardian, has been digging into the nitty-gritty of the gaming of US elections. We’ve found that November 7, 2006 is a day that will live in infamy. Four and a half million votes have been shoplifted. Here’s how they’ll do it, in three easy steps:

    Theft #1: Registrations gone with the wind.

    On January 1, 2006, while America slept off New Year’s Eve hangovers, a new federal law crept out of the swamps that has devoured 1.9 million votes, overwhelmingly those of African-Americans and Hispanics. The vote-snatching statute is a cankerous codicil slipped into the 2002 Help America Vote Act — strategically timed to go into effect in this mid-term year. It requires every state to reject new would-be voters whose identity can’t be verified against a state verification database.

    Sounds arcane and not too threatening. But look at the numbers and you won’t feel so fine. About 24.3 million Americans attempt to register or re-register each year. The New York University Law School’s Brennan Center told me that, under the new law, Republican Secretaries of State began the year by blocking about one in three new voters.

    How? To begin with, Mr. Bush’s Social Security Administration has failed to verify 47% of registrants. After appeals and new attempts to register, US Elections Assistance Agency statistics indicate 1.9 million would-be voters will still find themselves barred from the ballot on Tuesday.

    But don’t worry: those holding passports from their ski vacations to Switzerland are doing just fine. And that’s the point. It’s not the number of voters rejected, it’s their color. For example, California’s Republican Secretary of State Bruce McPherson figured out how to block 40% of registrants, mostly Hispanics. In a rare counter-move, Los Angeles, with a Hispanic mayor, contacted these citizens, “verified” them and got almost every single one back on the rolls. But throughout the rest of the West, new Hispanics remain victims of the “José Crow” treatment.

    In hotly contested Ohio, Kenneth Blackwell, Secretary of State and the Republican’s candidate for Governor, remains voter-rejection champ — partly by keeping the rejection criteria a complete secret.

    Theft #2: Turned Away - the ID game

    A legion of pimple-faced Republicans with Blackberries loaded with lists of new voters is assigned to challenge citizens in heavily Black and Hispanic(i.e. Democratic) precincts to demand photo ID that perfectly matches registration data.

    Sounds benign, but it’s not. The federal HAVA law and complex new ID requirements in states like New Mexico will easily allow the GOP squads to triple the number of voters turned away. Rather than deny using these voter suppression tactics, Republican spokesmen are claiming they are “protecting the integrity of the vote.”

    I’ve heard that before. In 2004, we got our hands on fifty confidential internal memos from the files of the Republican National Committee. Attached to these were some pretty strange spreadsheets. They called them “caging lists” — and it wasn’t about zoo feeding times. They were lists (70,000 for Florida alone) of new Black and Jewish voters — a very Democratic demographic — to challenge on Election Day. The GOP did so with a vengeance: In 2004, for the first time in half a century, more than 3.5 million voters were challenged on Election Day. Worse, nearly half lost their vote: 300,000 were turned away for wrong ID; 1.1 million were allowed a “provisional” ballot — which was then simply tossed out.

    Tomorrow, new federal ID requirements and a dozen new state show-me-your-ID laws will permit the GOP challenge campaign to triple their 300,000 record to nearly one million voters blocked.

    Theft #3: Votes Spoiled Rotten

    The nasty little secret of US elections is that three million ballots are cast in national elections but not counted — 3,600,380 not counted in 2004 according to US Election Commission stats. These are votes lost because a punch card didn’t punch (its chad got “hung”), a stray mark voided a paper ballot and other machinery glitches.

    Officials call it “spoilage.” I call it, “inaugurating Republicans.” Why? According to statisticians working with the US Civil Rights Commission, the chance your vote will “spoil” this way is 900% higher for Black folk and 500% higher for Hispanics than for white voters. When we do the arithmetic, we find that well over half of all votes spoiled or “blank” are cast by voters of color. On balance, this spoilage game produces a million-vote edge for the GOP.

    That’s where the Black Boxes come into play. Forget about Karl Rove messing with the software to change your vote. Rather, the big losses occur when computers crash, fail to start or simply don’t respond to your touch. They are the new spoilage machines of choice with, statistically, the same racial bias as the old vote-snatching lever machines. (Funny, but paper ballots with in-precinct scanners don’t go rotten on Black voters. Maybe that’s why Republican Secretaries of State have installed so few of them.)

    So Let’s Add it Up

    Two million legitimate voters will be turned away because of wrongly rejected or purged registrations.

    Add another one million voters challenged and turned away for “improper ID.”

    Then add yet another million for Democratic votes “spoiled” by busted black boxes and by bad ballots.

    And let’s not forget to include the one million “provisional” ballots which will never get counted. Based on the experience of 2004, we know that, overwhelmingly, minority voters are the ones shunted to these baloney ballots.

    And there’s one more group of votes that won’t be counted: absentee ballots challenged and discarded. Elections Assistance Agency data tell us a half million of these absentee votes will go down the drain.

    Driving this massive suppression of the vote are sophisticated challenge operations. And here I must note that the Democrats have no national challenge campaign. That’s morally laudable; electorally suicidal.

    Add it all up — all those Democratic-leaning votes rejected, barred and spoiled — and the Republican Party begins Election Day with a 4.5 million-vote thumb on the vote-tally scale.

    So, what are you going to do about it? May I suggest you … steal back your vote.

    It’s true you can’t win with 51% of the vote anymore. So just get over it. The regime’s sneak attack via vote suppression will only net them 4.5 million votes, about 5% of the total. You should be able to beat that blindfolded. If you can’t get 55%, then you’re just a bunch of crybaby pussycats who don’t deserve to win back America.

  42. ronandreas November 7, 2006 10:58 am

    “The same leaders who are massacring thousands of Iraqis for 1) the remaining oilfields on earth,”

    Peak oil is a pro-war myth. Take a look at this piece from Huffington Post:

    Debunking ‘Peak Oil’ Alarmists

    “The argument known as peak-oil theory has provided intellectual backing for the boom in crude prices. . .” This quote comes a September 14 Wall Street Journal article.

    The piece appeared more than a year after the publication of my book, “Over a Barrel,” the first chapter of which challenged the notion of oil as a scarce resource. And it was published barely a week after my post, “Massive Oil Find in Gulf of Mexico Brings Gloom to Peak Oil Pranksters” 9/08/06 (you always read it first on Huffington). That post, focusing on the important Gulf of Mexico find underlined the vast potential for new oil discoveries not only in the Gulf but across the planet. The giant Gulf find serves as a harbinger of significant oil discoveries to come, and it highlights why we should all be skeptical of the peak oil theorists.

    What I forgot was the peak oil pranksters view their opinions as closer to theology than theory. My Huffington article was bombarded with barbed comments and understandably self serving challenges. It was as if I had questioned received wisdom and, possibly more significantly, a key link to ever higher prices.

    The truth is, the peak oil alarmists have been around in one form or another since — or even before — the first U.S. oil well was drilled in the nineteenth century. In 1855 when people were making patent medicine from crude oil that bubbled to the surface in Pennsylvania an advertisement for Samuel Kier’s Rock Oil cautioned buyers: “Hurry, before this wonderful product is depleted from Natures laboratory!”

    And so it is today with the peak oil pundits. Their convoluted geological and too-often-opaque jargon tells us as much about current world oil reserves as predictions back then, that oil in Pennsylvania would run out. It did, but by the time that occurred there was more oil around than Samuel Kier ever imagined.

    Two things, though, make me nervous. According to the Journal article, I find myself allied with Exxon Mobil and Aramco on an issue. They are attacking peak oil but not because the price of crude is at stratospheric levels (even with recent pullbacks). They want policy makers and consumers to be comfortable about using oil and planning for petroleum consumption in the future. They are obviously becoming frightened that the search for oil substitutes could be harmful to their prospects in the years ahead. And, indeed, they should be. It is high time we put these modern-day robber barons out of the gouging and climate change business.

    To be clear, my argument with peak oil is that it has been used as an effective yet spurious tool to ratchet up oil prices and transfer literally trillions of dollars to the myriad players of the oil industry and their hangers on — all at our expense. I’m not arguing for lower prices so that we can use more. Given the looming disaster of global warming, it is essential that the price of oil come down and our utization of oil decline. The money now pouring into Big Oil’s coffers needs to be used for more productive and environmentally urgent purposes, rather than public relations and ‘K Street’ lobbying billions, that are deflecting our attention from such urgent issues as green house gasses, global warming and their impact on our future.
    We are now being held up at the gas pump to fatten their bottom line.

  43. Rich November 7, 2006 12:12 pm

    Hey ronandreas.

    This Huffington article just basically says “Peak Oil is wrong.” It doesn’t offer any refutation of the premise of Hubbert’s Peak. It doesn’t accept the obvious logic that oil is a non-renewable resource and that ultimately it will be gone, or that it takes millenia to generate a barrel of the stuff to begin with. The logic of Peak Oil is irrefutable, and it has been proven right time and again, if oil production didn’t run out, if there were unlimited fields to tap then the US would have stayed oil independent - - but from the 70’s onwards US fields were basically tapped out forcing the need for importing oil.

    I like Huffington, but I don’t like weak argumentation, she needs to show more than her opinion on this, she needs some proof. Otherwise she is just a shill for an alternative theory, a talking head just like the media.

    Cheers Rich

  44. zephyr November 7, 2006 12:12 pm

    Ronandreas, interesting. I’m sure there’s alot more involved than meets the eye. However, I will stick with one basic premise: There is a finite amount of this stuff in the earth’s crust. You can’t deny that. When it’s gone, it’s gone. 20 years, 30 years, 50 years , 100 years. At this point we’re splitting hairs. Everything runs on oil and we the people on earth use more of it each day. Is it extreme to say that if we don’t start addressing this issue, we are fucked in a big way? Plus, it’s becoming harder to find and retrieve.

    Afghanistan was about oil, too. Had to have a “legit” govt to deal with to build that pipeline. Oh yeah, Afghanistan was about heroin, too. Production went up oodles when the Taliban were sent packing. Don’t you think we could do something about that if we wanted to? We don’t want to ….way to much liquid cash for waging war to be found in them there poppies. Lots of junkies worldwide need their fix!

    Let’s face it….history will record the American Govt one of the most despotic in history, wallowing in pools of blood. Except this history might have to be recorded on papyrus and stone tablets once we’re done destroying this modern era.

    Again, Happy Election Day!! My “I voted” sticker fell off my ass though. Makia, glad I made you laugh….have to laugh….otherwise all this patheticness would make you boo-hoo!

  45. ronandreas November 7, 2006 12:49 pm

    The data is abundant. Venezuela has 1 trillion + barrels of heavy oil, PROVEN. That’s 100 times current global consumption. Cost of production? $25/b. That’s just Venezuela. Sure oil is “non-renewable”. So what? Several centuries from now that will be relevant.

    “Peak Oil is irrefutable, and it has been proven right time and again,”

    Actually, this IS the 6th end of oil scare. I lived through the last one, in the 70’s. Expect another scare in 2030. It’s all part of the commodity cycle.

  46. zephyr November 7, 2006 1:02 pm

    And this is why stuff never gets done. Because there’s always someone out there saying, “Ah, fuck it, it’s not really a problem and I’ll be dead by the time there is a problem.” No use trying to convince someone who has their mind made up.

    So, ronandreas, if there’s no truth to peak oil, why are we really in Iraq? Bringing Democracy to save the day doesn’t really fly anymore, if it ever did. The terrorist thing was bogus, except now it has become a breeding ground for terrorists intent on revenge. (Can’t understand why, don’t these silly Iraqis understand all these civilian deaths were accidents/collateral damage/you know, just the price of progress. Oh yeah, Condi Rice said it best….they’re just the birth pangs of democracy…..almost brings a tear to your eye.)

    C’mon, help me understand, why are we really there?

  47. Rich November 7, 2006 1:59 pm

    Hey ronandreas, sorry but I have to challenge some of what you are claiming here. Venezuela’s reserves are around 75 Billion barrels (CIA Fact Book). Global consumption is 80 Million barrels a day, global production is 79 Million barrels a day, so apparently we consume 1 Million barrels a day more than we produce.

    Global reserves are tagged at 1.35 Trillion barrels - which equates to 46 years of consumption if I did my math right.

    The issue here is that reserves have been exaggerated by many of the major oil interests, because the stock markets gauged their value on stated reserves.

    Either way, known oil reserves give us less than 50 years at current consumption levels, but we’re consuming more all of the time, especially with China and India coming online economically (they represent about 1/3 of the global population and they are becoming consumers).

    When you slice it and dice it you HAVE to reach the conclusion that environmentally and economically we are in a world of hurt. I like Huffington, but I think she is seeing a global conspiracy to line the pockets of Big Oil here, and perhaps there is truth in aspects of that argument, however the logic behind Peak Oil will require some serious evidence to refute, and so far I haven’t seen it.

    Cheers Rich

  48. ronandreas November 7, 2006 2:06 pm

    Sorry, that CIA data refers only to light oil. It’s a common missunderstanding. Here’s the DOE data that includes heavy oil:

    Analysis by the US Department of Energy (DoE) - seen by Newsnight - shows that at $50 a barrel Venezuela - not Saudi Arabia - will have the biggest oil reserves in Opec.

    Venezuela has vast deposits of extra-heavy oil in the Orinoco. Traditionally these have not been counted because at $20 a barrel they were too expensive to exploit - but at $50 a barrel melting them into liquid petroleum becomes extremely profitable.

    The DoE report shows that at today’s prices Venezuela’s oil reserves are bigger than those of the entire Middle East - including Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states, Iran and Iraq.

    The US agency also identifies Canada as another future oil superpower.

    Venezuela’s deposits alone could extend the oil age for another 100 years.

    The DoE estimates that the Venezuelan government controls 1.3 trillion barrels of oil - more than the entire declared oil reserves of the rest of the planet.

    Mr Chavez told Newsnight that “Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world. In the future Venezuela won’t have any more oil - but that’s in the 22nd Century.”

  49. ronandreas November 7, 2006 2:08 pm

    Sorry, that CIA data refers only to light oil. It’s a common missunderstanding. Here’s the DOE data that includes heavy oil:


  50. ronandreas November 7, 2006 2:11 pm

    Sorry, that CIA data refers only to light oil. It’s a common missunderstanding. Here’s the DOE data that includes heavy oil:

    BBC reports that Venezuela has proven 1.3 trillion barrels.
    Check it at BBC 4/3/06

  51. zephyr November 7, 2006 2:20 pm

    Well, I guess we don’t have anything to worry about. Still, you haven’t answered my question, if there’s no oil concern, why are we really in Iraq?

    Matter of fact, the more I read your answers, wreaks of someone with an agenda. Oil dripping out of your pockets?

  52. Makia November 7, 2006 2:32 pm

    My brother brought up an interesting insight to me recently (I don’t take credit for ideas which aren’t mine, which is most of the ones I have. . . guess that makes it easir when I’m wrong? LOL) Anyways. . . .

    He said the world will _never_ run out of oil. . .

    Because of a combination that it will become SO expensive, and the countries that have it won’t sell it anymore ’cause it’s the last of it; that the world economy will crumble LONG before the earth runs out of oil.

  53. Makia November 7, 2006 2:34 pm

    Mathemetician he is.

  54. Rich November 7, 2006 2:52 pm

    Hey ronandreas.

    I see what you are saying. I’m aware of the Athabascan sand oil as well, you are correct, the heavy oil is substantial and will be tapped next. But this just proves the point of Peak Oil.

    Peak Oil said that the light sweet crude would peak by 2005 to 2010, Hubbert was right on the money. The fact that heavier oils exist that can be extracted does not diminish the issue of light sweet crude being depleted rapidly at this point.

    The world will move to permanently higher oil prices. Heavier sand oil and deeper, heavier crude will be extracted at a much higher price and resource wars will escalate. Consumption is rising, prices are rising, extraction is getting harder and technology has found no real alternative to fossil fuels - - that is Peak Oil.

    Overlay on top of that our huge population globally, then climate change that appears to be escalating (we are having record rains here in the Northwest, after a record breaking hot summer), and you have a recipe for Peak Humanity.

    The times are a changing, everything is speeding up, becoming more chaotic and unpredictable, etc. We’re in for a wild ride and oil is just a part of the story, albeit a very significant part because our entire culture is dependent on it and there are currently no alternatives to it.

    Cheers Rich

  55. ronandreas November 7, 2006 3:25 pm

    Cost of production:
    Saudi heavy-$10-$15/barrel
    Venezuela heavy-$25
    Canadian tar sands- $40
    That takes us several centuries. Then the cost MAY go up from there.
    WSJ-7/10/06: Saudi heavy oil may exceed Venezuela’s and is just now being explored.(present costs-$1.50/barrel)
    We are in the heavy oil era. Canada produces 1 million barrels of sand tar oil/day.China is going full tilt in Venezuela, developing heavy oil infrastructure. Again oil won’t go below $40. So what?

  56. ronandreas November 7, 2006 4:36 pm


    “Still, you haven’t answered my question, if there’s no oil concern, why are we really in Iraq?”

    Look at the planners. What is thier citizenship? Which nation was the “clean break” paper written for? Who did the U.S. rearm with cluster bombs in August? Which lobby claims to dominate congress?
    I could go on. Plainly, “war for oil” is a handy foil.

  57. Rich November 7, 2006 4:43 pm

    We may have 100 to 200 years left, depending on the accuracy and legitimacy of reserves - but the cost will continue to rise from here on out. Now we know that light sweet has peaked and we are heading towards heavier and heavier extraction we will see prices rising consistently as extraction costs rise and the worlds most precious resource depletes more and more.

    We are consuming 5% more oil each year. We have 750 million cars today, and in 20 years it will be 1.25 billion, what will that do to reserves and oil prices…..but more importantly CAN THE PLANET HANDLE THIS ONSLAUGHT?

    That is the real question here. We’re all used to $60 a barrel already - we’d adjust to $100, but we’d revolt at much higher than that. But that is all irrelevant if the planet can’t handle it.

    Cheers Rich

  58. ronandreas November 7, 2006 5:18 pm

    Several points:
    1-No the planet can’t handle the onslaught. That’s why projecting continued growth in use is wrong.
    2-At $60, we are currently 33% higher than the marginal producer’s cost(Canadian tar sands).
    3-With nationalised energy industry, we could invest all that diference in development of a ballanced energy economy.

    Al Naimi is perhaps the worlds foremost oil insider, this is what he was quoted today as saying:

    -(Dow Jones)- Saudi Arabia’s Oil Minister Ali Naimi said Monday that economies had proven tough enough to withstand higher oil prices and a low world oil price isn’t sustainable.

    Naimi, the de facto leader of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, which meets some 40% of the world’s oil needs, also threw his weight behind a push toward developing and using alternatives to hydrocarbons, saying Islamic countries stood to benefit from such a drive.

    His comments come a week after the U.K.’s Stern Review highlighted the economic opportunities behind restraining growth in carbon emissions and a day before the International Energy Agency outlines a need to tackle climate change through energy conservation and the use of alternative energy sources.

    In his speech to an Islamic economic forum in Islamabad, Naimi said some ” mistakenly believe that economic growth is inversely related to the price of oil or the amount of oil a country imports.”

    He said low oil prices seen in the 1980s and 1990s weren’t sustainable.

    Recent high prices, he added, “are a direct result of under-investment during the previous two decades.”

    He added: “There are many outstanding recent examples of energy import dependent countries achieving impressive economic growth rates during periods of rising oil prices.”

    Naimi said developing countries which wisely harnessed their energy resources “will flex their economic muscles and once again hydrocarbons will play a key role.”


    Note that it is the 80’s and 90’s price that we won’t see again. Oh well. We could see a collapse to $40 that lasts for a decade or more.Right now and for the indeterminate future “peak oil” simply is not a factor. The factor that matters is the production cost of the marginal producer.

  59. Makia November 7, 2006 5:40 pm

    I’m sorry guys, but all this talk about oil

    1) doesn’t have anything to dowith the elections today, and

    2) isn’t gonna make a lick difference when the tables turn on the U.S.

    my advice is:

    learn to speak Chinese if oil means a lot to you, or

    learn some good gardening skills, you’ll be much healthier and happier.

    cheers y’all

  60. Rich November 7, 2006 5:49 pm

    Hey Makia, with a Texan in the White House this election has a lot to do with oil!! More than you might want to imagine.

    This election is about Iraq, Iraq is about oil.

    ronandreas, we’re saying the same thing. You are just discounting the revelation for most people that cheap oil is over. We’ve been through a huge adjustment in our thinking, Peak Oil has raised the specter of our future, etc. I see it as more topical and impactful and you have moved on.

    Now back to the election!!

    cheers Rich

  61. Raz Amatazz November 7, 2006 5:55 pm

    Ronandreas; your analysis ( such as it is ) is incredibly simplistic, and you obviously fail to grasp the entire point of peak oil ( or maybe you do and you are trying to lead everyone else away from it ). The point is it is a production peak. Each year after the peak as demand continues to rise and production declines as the worlds ageing super giant fields produce less and less then rationing occurs. Rationing by price. No giga-amounts of tar sands or oil shale can forstall this, because if is not price that limits our ability to produce oil from the sources but physical limitations. Namely that it takes a lot of energy to recover any oil from these sources, such that the EROEI is only slightly better that 1:1. It also is only economically feasible as long as natural gas ( which faces it’s own more precipitous peak ) is available and afordable
    There is a wealth of info available online and some is high quality and some complete crap, but here is all anyone needs to know about the immediacy of peak oil. Simply that the persons with arguably the best most complete picture of world energy supplies have already made their historic play for the last large oil fields on Earth in Iraq. And they don’t really give a fuck who knows it. If that doesn’t spell endgame to you then should probably go buy yourself a Hummer and go out for a drive. I wish you luck pal. We are all going to need it

  62. ron November 7, 2006 6:16 pm

    Petras’ powerful new book is titled The Power of Israel in the United States. Reviewed below:

    Petras begins with a discussion of who fabricated the lies about Iraq’s threat to our security and why. He mentions two competing channels of policy makers and advisors - the long-in-place formal structure of career military and civilian professionals in the Pentagon and State Department and a parallel one Bush administration neocons set up for this one purpose in the Pentagon, staffed by political appointees, and called the Office of Special Plans (OSP). It was the OSP’s job to cook the books, come up with the idea of weapons of mass destruction while ignoring the clear evidence to the contrary and contrive a fraudulent case for war against Iraq. The people in it were those in Donald Rumsfeld’s and Paul Wolfowitz’s chain of command and were closely connected to a number of influential neoconservative and pro-Israel organizations. They planned a war agenda based on lies because Israel wanted it for its security and hegemony in the region - beginning with the overthrow of Saddam Hussein followed by regime change in Syria, Lebanon, Iran and even Saudi Arabia.

    Petras points out, contrary to popular belief, this war happened largely due to the efforts of the Jewish Lobby representing the interests of Israel. Big Oil opposed the idea because it feared attacking Iraq would jeopardize its business prospects with other oil-producing states in the region. Still, Israel and the Jewish Lobby got their war, and aside from the gain from high oil prices, Big Oil may end up a longer-term loser from it. US oil interests always prefer stability and normal relationships with countries where they operate or wish to and were quite comfortable dealing with Saddam Hussein without wanting to risk a war that might upset an otherwise profitable arrangement. Their fears proved justified as the war they feared created such unresolved turbulence in Iraq, it’s become too dangerous and unprofitable to undertake new ventures there except perhaps in parts of the Kurdish-controlled north. Big Oil also chafes at not being allowed to deal with the Iranians for contracts now let to its European and other competitors because US sanctions prevent them from doing business there. It’s hard to imagine those interests would ever go along with US - Israeli belligerence in the Middle East, but they dare not oppose it publicly.

    Petras observes there’s never a public discussion allowed about that relationship in the mainstream nor will there ever be any, especially any hint the US attacked Iraq in service to Israel.
    Full Review:http://www.populistamerica.com/the_power_of_israel_in_the_us

  63. Makia November 7, 2006 6:22 pm

    Well as far as an election and texans in whatever-colored-house they live in, a wise man once said (or maybe he wasn’t wise, but a smart asshole):

    “Give me the power to print a nation’s currency and I care not who makes it’s laws.”

    At this point in world history, our own countries are powerless when it comes to the banks and barons of industry. My platform is localization, but the power structures of the world can’t let localities decide their own fates. I would start a small agricultural community that uses gold and silver for money, and the people would be happy. I would allow the people to raise healthy children with good diets and exercise, and teach them that good healthcare is the least expensive healthcare. The people would prosper in their hearts, and minds, and teach their children to teach their children the value of these things. That is the better life.

    We don’t need oil, we need eachother. We don’t need gold or silver, it just makes good money. We don’t need international trade and commerce any more than we need cookie cutter hollywood movies, mp3 players, tv dinners, big screen tvs, etc, etc. But it certainly looks to me like no matter how much easier it will be to let these things go, americans are going to spend the next 150 years killing others and eachother in some kind of backwards attept to get back to the good old days that they could never really afford in the first place.

    Maybe I’m wrong. I hope I’m somewhat wrong, but my prediction is that China is going to be the country that makes the most out of the end of the industrial age. Yes, some of Americans and American life are downriight wonderful, just like many other parts of the world; but this giant has been living on borrowed time and for as smart as this giant thinks it is, it has squandered its greatest assets and can be easily compared to a brilliant junky who had so much potential but just couldn’t quit.

    My hope is that when the crap hits the fan our families and friends are ready for another American Revolution where we show the tyrants where they can go; and reestablish, with lessons learned, the Constitution of the United States. If that doesn’t happen this place is going to turn into another reincarnation of the U.S.S.R., or the P.R.C. That’s where the biggest “leaders” really want it to go and they’re succeeding, ’cause its a lot easier on them to be kings and despots than leaders; they can take care of all the people, make all the decisions, and their egos don’t ever have to be bruised again by someone telling them they’re not doing a good job. Its us pathetics that are fumbling over eachother and getting in eachother’s way, killing the planet and eachother. When they finally have all the power they’ll make sure we can’t mess up ever again.

    Ummmmm. . . yeah.

  64. Makia November 7, 2006 6:38 pm

    Yes, my simple agriculural, localized community idea is very compatible w/ the Constitution. The strong federal gov’t that we have today was basically prohibited in the Constitution. And yes, I know the difficulty in reconciling the states rights issue with ending slavery, but you know what? The industrial barons didn’t like the slaves for reasons of unfair competition, not morality. Centralization of power is the bane of the planet and our species. You’ve gotta let them have slaves to an extent, know if you don’t agree with them don’t buy them or products which use them. Sound callous? Well what do you think the “great wealth” (neat products and paper money tricks) that we enjoy today comes from? So many americans want to be so proud of themselves for ending slavery (through a strong federal gov’t), but then they have no problem buying their daily coffee, pineapples, GAP clothes, and Wal-mart discounts. Oh yeah, our system is so moral.

    I am really a very grounded and realistic person. I don’t have anger towards people who shop at walmart or drink coffee or anything like that. The thing is though that imbalances correct themselves, and you either pay now or you pay later. That’s where all this good talk about living debt-free comes from. But we need to see the value in decentralization of power. Historically speaking if we would have seen it, slavery in the south would probably have disappeared anyway and the U.S. would be much better in numerous ways. But such is the path of humanity.

  65. larry November 7, 2006 6:40 pm

    If we are talking peak oil…..we are talking also that the middle east is drowning in medium and heavy crude…drowning!….the solution and investment of the decade is sulphco.com (SUF)….due to delays in their first 210,000bbl/day plant in U.A.E….the shares have been naked shorted to death…a steal at 5.50…i am loaded up…the technology makes hand building Valero type multi-billion dollar, 7 year projects ,obsolete in several months at the flick of a switch…sonocracking is nearly born…long live the cavitation reaction…think,low pressure and low temperature=low cost/crude cracking.period…the spread between heavy and light sweet crude is now called profit…innovation at it’s finest

  66. Makia November 7, 2006 6:49 pm

    Finally, I don’t want to Monday Morning Quaterback world history, but I try to let my practical thinking come from ideals and positions that have power and integrity. Such as living debt free and understanding that we’re all here to learn and if everything and everyone was always “perfect” we wouldn’t have anyting to do. With all that being said the world could be much more balanced in many different ways and I point to the centralization of power as a prime example and culprit. Its one of those nasty spirals. Take that power structure in the opposite direction and anarchy does not ensue as some would try and claim.

    What does happen? That is the question and I beleive that the answer is far better for far more people, even if its not the “perfect” utopia that appeals to the immature egos of our race.

    Ahhhhhhhh, whatever.

  67. Administrator November 7, 2006 9:05 pm

    Later in the day, after I voted, I had to go to the post office and walked past the polling place. A woman was standing outside handing out information on Ballot Initiative #4 - the one I told you about above. It reads,

    “Shall the State Representative from this district be instructed to vote in favor of a resolution calling upon the President and Congress of the United States to end the war in Iraq immediately and bring all United States military forces home from Iraq?”

    I asked her how they got it on the ballot - and it was through a lot of hard work and citizen activism. She also gave me a link to their website: Arlington United for Justice with Peace. http://arlingtonujp.org/index.php?target=about.

    I had seen people in Arlington protesting the war during evening rush hour, and it turns out that this is the group.


  68. surfdude November 7, 2006 9:12 pm

    There is no “heaven on earth”. But there is a Heaven. So what do we do while we inhabit this planet? We live by the rules of the Creator as best we can and we try to help one another avoid the “Sirens” of debt and servitude. We stay far away from materialism and get back to the basics - each of us is breath away from eternity. Where will we spend it? That matters a whole lot more than how much a barrel of oil costs or what car we drive or whatever.

    Think about it. Each of us has a date with death. That is undeniable. What really matters except were our souls will end up?

  69. Makia November 8, 2006 4:01 am

    Boy surfdude. Unfortuneately I’m going to disagree with you. Heaven and hell on earth are real, and you do go there on your next breath, and your choices take you there. I think we agree on the most practical points that making the choices that are in harmony w/ the creator is the way to find heaven; but trying to find the “perfect utopia” where you are always right and everyone always agrees with you; or “God” is always right and everyone always agrees with him - the streets are paved with gold and there’s no oil because everyone just flies around with their wings (which kind of defeats the purpose of streets) - that this place exists either on Earth or in some kind of “After Life” is an ego myth, IMHO (well not just mine).

    No, fortuneately (and unfortuneately) we reap the rewards and the tough lessons right here on this wonderful planet. That is the true beauty and nature of a physical planet. And when you die, and your debts aren’t paid, it doesn’t absolve you, nor are you “punished” for eternity. Nope, the debts either stay in the same form or take on a new form and you still have to learn and do what you’ve got to do to pay them - or live for millennia in debt, in many respects its up to you.

    Rule 1: The universe seeks to find balance out of design - but if it were designed to constantly _be_ in perfect balance on every level there’d be nothing to do at all (We Are Custodians)

    Rule 2: Pay now or pay later

    My advice for anyone who cares to hear: Pay now.

    Sometimes our parents don’t teach us well (a great case could be made that humans are just in an age of darkness at this time, so don’t hold it against your parents, that will make you miserable - honor thy mom & pop the best you can). But once you know, you can’t “unknow.” When people know that they shouldn’t be buying this thing they can’t afford, and they do it anyway, that’s when the big debts start. And once you go down that path a little bit, its harder and harder to get out. Case in point, I’d say there’s a good number of people who once in too much debt try and find some way to _barrow_ themselves out. Been there, done that.

    I’m not a fan of the “banks” or the “kings”, but I won’t blame them for my debts or problems, either. We all have to live with our own actions. Once a person sees “the light” nothing except themselves can keep them away from it, and sometimes not even that.

    I understand a lot about the myth of a permenant “after” life and why it makes sense and why its appealing; but on a mass scale I only see it leading to fear or irresponsibility. Real life is not about fear, and responsibilty is just another way of saying “treat others as _you_ want to be treated.” That can be interpreted as being very selfish. But actually, to me, it simply encourages introspection. I can be “angry” with someone if I would want them to treat me the same way if I were doing what they’re doing. Thus, Jesus was _not_ a pacifist, though he only _chose_ to use his temper when he thought it was the right thing to do. He questioned his friends and made them uncomfortable when he thought it was the right thing to do - when he thought _he_ would want to be made to feel that way if (by his perception) roles were reversed. So his friends and family may have (prabably did) disagreed with him sometimes - but in circumspect the man acted with an enormous amount of integrity.

  70. Makia November 8, 2006 5:16 am

    p.s. - the permanent life “after” death leads to irresponsibility because the whole concept is too big; it doesn’t make sense to the greater part of our individual minds (because its not based in reality) and once we reject the fear (because its too much to live with) and don’t have some better motivator of responsibility (”do unto others. . .”) then humans just revert to “feel good today ’cause i don’t know what else to do.”

  71. zephyr November 8, 2006 5:25 am

    Hoo-Rah!!! Maybe I’m naive but I woke up feeling like a kid in a candy store, like a teenager who found his father’s dirty magazines, like a fundamentalist Republican who’s gay lover just showed up at the door with the crystal meth!!!!

    There is some karma after all….let’s see how assholes Bush and Cheney deal with the loss of both houses. Personally, I would pour the gasoline to make sure they burned at the stake!!!

  72. Makia November 8, 2006 5:54 am

    Bush and Cheney are going to do what they’ve been doing for a long time, same with all the other big R’s & D’s. They’re gonna act like they’re fighting with eachother and keep selling the citizens down the river while they line their pockets. It’s like the WWF except a lot more money and the misery is real and for a lot more people.

  73. Dr Jane Karlsson November 8, 2006 5:54 am

    ronandreas, I guess you are not a big fan of Matthew Simmons? Do you have any specific arguments against what he says?

    Sapiens, #17: I still don’t understand how your quote shows the interest on bank loans is not new money. You would agree that money is ‘created’ when it’s loaned and ‘destroyed’ when the loan is repaid? But the interest is NOT destroyed?

  74. Makia November 8, 2006 6:04 am

    Actually the WWF is entertaing ’cause we all know its fake. Government is sad because we’re supposed to beleive in its integrity. Gridlock or not, the man behind the curtain doesn’t care. His works are already doing their deeds. The greedy care about small victories and losses, but the results of this election won’t offset anyone’s agenda. The big players are working together behind the scenes. . . the fighting is basically a farce for them - even though, like I say, those guys don’t like to lose battles even when they’re meaningless. Competition is a good thing when its good, but the PTB are a bunch of a-holes by anyone’s definition. An oversimplification, but accurate IMO.

  75. Dr Jane Karlsson November 8, 2006 6:08 am

    Has anyone seen the FT article entitled ‘Panic selling hits derivatives market’?

  76. Makia November 8, 2006 6:38 am

    I saw that Dr Jane. Could only read a couple paragraphs. My theory when the housing bubble started to pop was “Now they’ll move to derivitives if they can. If they can’t then we’re screwed sooner than later.” So the panic selling might be the beginning of the next bubble (derivatives) or it might signify the end of the road for the dollar. Where else can they put all that money besides those imaginary derivatives? Certainly there’s no “real” places to put ALL that money thats been “created” in housing/mortages speculation.

  77. ronandreas November 8, 2006 6:40 am

    M. Simmons-Connected to Bush dynasty, Houston oil finance insider, need I say more.
    The “peak oil” scare is useful in the promotion of nuclear energy. Be aware and critical.

  78. Makia November 8, 2006 6:57 am

    Did Simmons invent Hubbert’s peak? Or fudge numbers to make it look accurate when placed on fields and countries?

  79. Rich November 8, 2006 7:10 am

    SulphCo - SUF - has developed a patented safe and economic process employing ultrasound technology to desulfurize and hydrogenate crude oil and other oil related products. The company’s technology upgrades sour heavy crude oils into sweeter, lighter crudes, producing more gallons of usable oil per barrel.

    Looks like a real step forwards from a cursory look. I might jump in and speculate to accumulate.

    Also, it is common knowledge that Simmon’s has been a shill for the Bush Cartel for 25 years, so he is more than suspect. However Hubbert is Hubbert and his theory has stood the test of time so far. People need to caveat their remarks regarding the subject, Peak Oil as debated in the press refers to light sweet crude (cheap oil), the heavy stuff has been known about for decades and excluded from the equation. My point is that it is very impactful to wake up one day (for me about 5 years ago) and learn all about the future of oil being far more expensive (3 or 4 X) starting immediately. It is also a critical juncture for the planet because we are ALL realizing that environmentally the planet can’t handle our current lifestyle!

    As for the election, congrats to the Dems, hopefully they get the Senate too.

    BUT, now what.

    My guess is business as usual with some minor policy changes that are sugar coated for Americans. This is no revolution, this may not be evolution, just more devolution? Lets hope I’m wrong, and we’re all not massively disappointed.

    Cheers Rich

  80. zephyr November 8, 2006 8:57 am

    Like I said earlier, I’m probably naive in being so happy over the Republicans getting their asses handed to them. It’s just a little pleasing because they’ve been so smug over these last 6 years. Unfortunately, SO much damage has been done in so many places that I’m sure some things might be irreparable. Regardless, I’m with Michael….gridlock would be good for awhile. And since they went after Clinton so vehemently for getting a blowjob, I would like to see possible war crimes get some attention. Problem is there are so many dirty hands that they probably just want to sweep it under the rug and move on.

    However, I have to believe at some point the rest of the world is going to tire of having the US shit on them continually. And since the nation’s essentually bankrupt, it wouldn’t take much to take us down. The only thing really protecting us is brute military force and maniacal leaders who want the world to think we’re just a little insane. Really just a much bigger version of that little kook in North Korea. Makia is right….where the hell is all this excess liquidity going to go. It sloshes around from market to market so that nothing really makes sense fundamentally anymore. And more $$$’s get created all the time. Eventually some domino will flip and the whole thing will collapse on itself. And I think all the big boys kind of know this. Why else would the Plunge Protection Team be having regular meetings? Why did Europe simulate a financial meltdown earlier this year? This whole thing is way out of control and I believe has literally taken on a life of its own.

    Again, as for peak oil, I’m not going to pretend I’m privy to all the pertinent information. But there is one basic fundamental you can’t escape: There is a finite ammount of this stuff in the earths crust. Period! Plus, as mentioned, Mother Earth is really starting to feel the effects of what we;re doing to her. Remember Whooly Mammoths being found whole and frozen? When they were cut open, warm climate vegetation was found in the stomachs. So it begs the question, can sudden, violent climatological shifts occur? I think the answer is obvious. And if it happened once, it can happen again. But people are so Goddamn obsessed with todays bottom line on profits, well, the hell with the future. And as always, when such theories are confirmed, there’s absolutely nothing that can be done then.

  81. larry November 8, 2006 9:03 am

    Simmons and Hubbert…whether shill or not…the work has been validated from many authors and many points of analysis…the major oil fields are in decline and replacements are not being brought on line fast enough…demand is soaring….draw your own conclusion….SUF….takes worthless heavy and medium and upgrades it into refinery friendly light oil…TRANSFORMATIONAL….the gift of TIME…time to transcend the ‘peak’dilema….will we use the time sulphco provides, wisely; and roll out alternative energy sources or squander the gift of time????

  82. Jay November 8, 2006 9:16 am

    Maybe I’m naive but I woke up feeling like a kid in a candy store

    I totally know what you mean, but it’s tempered by the knowledge that Bush & Cheney will continue to do what they have always done — circumvent congress and act without approval.

  83. Administrator November 8, 2006 9:36 am

    This just in:


    Wonder what he’s going to say? Suspending the Constitution? Bombing Iran?

    I had the oddest dream last night, that I was with President Bush somewhere, sitting on a couch, having a chat with him. He had some appointment that he was waiting for, but it was delayed, so he had some time to kill. He was telling me how it was much easier being the Governor of Texas - he got along so much better with the lawmakers, but that even in Texas on occasion he had to pull political maneuvers to “show his power” (that is what he said in his dream). I asked him if that’s what invading Iraq was about and he said, “Yeah - we can’t have America looking like wimps.” In my dream he was one of those arrogant kind of people who are set in their ways, with their opinions, but with the veneer of pleasantness. I thought twice about asking him my next question, but I thought what the hell - all he can say is no, and how many chances will I have to chat with the President? So I asked him, “Would you bomb Iran as a way to ’show your power’?” He kind of hesitated a little, but in the end said, “Yeah, if I had to.”

    What a bizarre dream! I don’t normally remember my dreams for long, but this was vivid.

    Maybe it was a premonition. Let’s see what he says at 1. Sometimes the Washington Post carries live video feeds like that on their front page: http://www.washingtonpost.com/


  84. Administrator November 8, 2006 9:53 am

    And now for something completely different….

    After reading the posts above, it reminded me about something someone told me once about oil. He said that geologists don’t really know how oil is formed, or where it comes from. The working assumption is that it comes from rotting dead dinosaurs and other organic material that died millions of years ago. This assumption comes about because of the carbon that is present in they hydrocarbons, and our working understanding that the carbon comes from once living organisms like plants and dinosaurs.

    However, this guy told me, oil might possibly the product of some kind of natural geologic process taking place down there with all the molten rock and lava deep in the bowels of the earth (in, um… hell).

    I just did a quick search on Google and found this article from rense.com: http://www.rense.com/general54/ssust.htm

    It is not a very long article, here is a snip:

    Dr. Gold strongly believes that oil is a “renewable, primordial soup continually manufactured by the Earth under ultrahot conditions and tremendous pressures. As this substance migrates toward the surface, it is attached by bacteria, making it appear to have an organic origin dating back to the dinosaurs.”

    Is it true? Who knows where the information ends and the disinformation begins?

    Anyway, don’t shoot me. I’m just the messenger, passing along ever more things to be confused about!


  85. zephyr November 8, 2006 9:55 am

    It’s about Rumsfeld’s resignation!

  86. Administrator November 8, 2006 9:55 am

    Here is the news:



    Flashback: http://www.bullnotbull.com/gallery/g-hey-hey-lbj.html


    So who said voting doesn’t make any difference!?

  87. zephyr November 8, 2006 9:59 am

    To bad it isn’t followed immediately by his public hanging. Don’t worry, Michael, I’m sure your premonition will unfortunately come true. After all, Bush has 2 years left to prove whatever he feels he has to, or to complete the mission given to him by his real “leaders”. I hope I’m really mistaken, but I still anticipate some ugly times ahead.

  88. Makia November 8, 2006 10:17 am

    Michael, you need to put this thread in a time capsule so we can read it in five years.

    . . . I think by then these things that we think mattered so much will end up having very little significance.

    As far as Rummy, I read somewhere that the military periodicals all published editorials on Monday asking for his resignation. His res. doesn’t have anything to do w/ the election outcome, but now they don’t have anything to lose.

    Bomb Iran? Y’know whatever. This country is bankrupt and it is a short amount of time before we feel the effects in our daily lives. If we are blessed, we won’t have to worry about someone starting to bomb us. We’ve really pissed some people off over the years. . .

  89. Makia November 8, 2006 10:20 am

    I can tell you this for certain to yunz guys debating peak oil: It ain’t gonna matter a damn how much oil there is or how much it costs to produce to us americans. Most of us aren’t gonna be able to afford it and/or have any use for it anyway. Even if we are at peak oil today, demand and price are gonna plummet. It’ll make a difference, sure, but not to most of us americans.

  90. larry November 8, 2006 10:27 am

    ABIOTIC OIL:is a fring theory at best and if any knowledge of organic chemistry is examined…well,oil deposits take very specific conditions to develope…but it would be nice if mother earth had an oil production company at the core….

  91. ronandreas November 8, 2006 3:07 pm

    Raz amataz,
    Check the gas under the orinoco heavy deposit. It’s going to supply S. America for centuries and soften all the heavy oil that sits above it. By the way, the close proximity of these huge oil and gas fields is one of the factors that supports Dr. Gold’s theory.
    Saudi Arabia, where there is also plenty of heavy oil also has huge gas reserves only thier heavy is not as heavy and requires less gas to thin.

  92. Rich November 8, 2006 4:38 pm

    Wikipedia is very current on Rummy’s replacement, of course it’s more of the same:


    I like the ties to Iran/Contra the most.

    Cheers Rich

  93. ronandreas November 8, 2006 5:43 pm

    I don’t think Dr. Gold’s abiotic origin of petroleum theory can rightly be said to challenge oil’s non-renewable nature. He makes a powerful case that it is created in the “deep hot biosphere”, but not that it’s created in quantities that match our current extraction.

  94. Administrator November 8, 2006 6:01 pm

    Gridlock achieved! Rumsfeld resigns! Dow makes new high!

    Well ladies and gentlemen, doctors and lawyers - another day, another thread. Next up -

    Post-election Potpourri:


    Now that the election is over, it is onto the hard work of taking back the reigns of power. Is it possible? How can we achieve it?

    Let us continue the conversation here:


    p.s. - Makia - I’ll keep these posts in the time capsule. It is funny to look back at some of them. We all got so worked up about peak oil, and the other one - the Iranian Oil Bourse! - remember that one? That was supposed to spell the end for the USD. March 31 came and went - What ever happened to it? It died a silent death and the dollar keeps plugging away.

    Maybe we’re being played by PTB, distracting us from the real work?

    Ron - I don’t know what to make of Dr. Gold - I only read that one article. Just wanted to make people aware that it is there. It also doesn’t address what Rich said - how will the planet handle all the CO2 that we’ll continue to pump out if we don’t find an alternative energy source?


  95. surfdude November 8, 2006 8:45 pm

    Makia said in post #70: “the permanent life “after” death leads to irresponsibility because the whole concept is too big; it doesn’t make sense to the greater part of our individual minds (because its not based in reality) and once we reject the fear (because its too much to live with) and don’t have some better motivator of responsibility (”do unto others. . .”) then humans just revert to “feel good today ’cause i don’t know what else to do.”

    I disagree with this somewhat. Fear of punishement (in the afterlife) is the motivator that causes many people to follow the “do unto others..” I realize they do it for the wrong motives, but it keeps society from chaos. For many, without the fear factor, they would revert to “feel good today ’cause i don’t have to pay the consequenses later”. While I totally disagree with fear as a spiritual truth, it seems to be a regulator of conduct for many people. it even works with our laws and punishments for breaking those laws - they serve to regulates behaviour. Maybe you or I don’t need laws and threats of punishment to do the right thing and treat people with dignity, but can you imagine a world without laws and punishment? Total chaos - because the majority of people would do whatever they felt like without hesitation.

    I agree that our actions here do determine the quality of the life we live here. My whole point earlier is that society is totally rejecting the fact that in addition to the physical, there is a spiritual realm - and that is where perfection reigns. Trying to achieve it here will lead to utter disapointment. But that does not mean that one should not strive to lead a noble life - and avoid the pitfalls of debt and servitude and the misery that it brings. There can be extreme joyful existance here - especially if the rules you mentioned are adheared to. But since many won’t or can’t understand or follow that path, we have the massses falling into every trap the PTB set. If one’s hope is all here in the physical and material world, without hope of true Perfection and Glory in the hereafter, then they can not enjoy to the fullest life here on the planet.

    Anyway Makia - great stimulating and thoughtful response. This whole subject may seem irrevelant, but I think that there it isn’t. Religion uses fear to control people, so does government - always have. The truth sets people free - but most people can’t handle truth, so they prefer the lies and fear.

  96. Exasperated November 8, 2006 10:10 pm

    Well, is anyone going to stand up now and scream DIEBOLD! DIEBOLD! DIEBOLD! STOLE MY VOTE, or have the election results restored your faith in the electoral system? Come on, if the Republicans really had the power to steal elections that you all have been claiming, surely they would have stolen this one? Aluminium foil hats still fitting, or not?

    How many conspiracy theories can you fit under those things, anyway?

  97. Rich November 8, 2006 10:23 pm

    Exasperated, my contention is that it doesn’t matter who wins, the result is generally the same. The USD gets pumped, oil gets pumped, the people get their opium, big business controls more of our daily lives, the media fills us full of crap, our food gets more and more modified, our educational system makes us dumber and dumberer!

    We live in a kleptocracy run by the banks and big oil interests.

    Politics and representative government is kindergarten play time compared to the real deal. There are $250 Trillion of unregulated derivatives in existence, there is no government oversite, this is where the real action is - and its not under the control of anyone but big business.

    Unless we are voting for the opportunity to re-establish the Republic, to expunge the scurge of the monopolist money power, the secret societies and the globalist elite from our system then we are just participating in a sham. Sure you can get a little tax relief here and some pork there through the different candidates you vote for, but you can’t cut the cancer from the system.

    The system is a fraud!

    Cheers Rich

    PS. Its a giant Ponzi Scheme. R

  98. Makia November 9, 2006 5:12 am

    Thank you very much Rich#97. I’m glad I’m not the only one saying it. I mean, are we supposed to beleive that the election was _fair_ because the R’s didn’t win? I’ve got my theories, basically that there are _way_ more “democrats.” But that just means way more stupid people to me. Doesn’t matter to me who wins. They are both coercive, they are both cheating, they are both basically on the same team but using different tools to distract “us” from whats really going on.

    Surfdude, I think we are very much on the same page. I really understand where you are coming from - but I look at using fear to manipulate the People to be better, even if it “works,” is nonsequiter. I know you are not, but I can’t help but think you are a priest. One of those good priests who actually cares but is stuck in that system.

    Fact is, God is all around us, that is what needs to be taught. Fear is just as much of an illustion as the pleasure we get from doing things that aren’t good for us. There is nothing to fear, firstly, and secondly we just need to teach eachother to derive pleasure from being responsible.

    Sometimes I think I’m just wired differently - I do understand that fear has “kept” billions of people “in line” over the millenia. However that isn’t the only model that has worked. And given the choice of what to practice and teach, I choose love, abundance, and a world where we are hear to learn, not be punished. No punishment now, and none in the “after” life. That uncomfortable feeling we get when we make mistakes is learning, not punishment. That’s my view anyway. Thanks very much surfdude for the coversation.

  99. Dr Jane Karlsson November 9, 2006 7:13 am

    Michael, I used to think Bush would bomb Iran, and now I’m really wondering.

    I’ve come across two separate reports of how extremely difficult it might be to retreat from Iraq. Lots of Americans are in little pockets scattered across the country, and supplying them is a real nightmare because supply convoys and helicopters get blown up all the time. How do you get them out safely?

    Scott Ritter always said the Iraqis (not Saddam Hussein, he appears to have been a patsy) had everything planned before the invasion, to lure us into a trap. Well, a trap is what it’s looking like to me.

    Now, why is Bush WELCOMING the Baker report that says he should get help from Syria and IRAN over Iraq? If he attacks Iran, the first thing Iran will do is stop the supply convoys from getting in, they all go in from the south. Your boys in Iraq will starve.

    So you see, it might be that the really lip-smacking thing about this election result is that Bush will have to NEGOTIATE with TERRORISTS. Ho ho ho.

  100. Administrator November 9, 2006 7:25 am

    Hi Jane - Here is an excellent article if you have not seen it, that speaks to exactly what you are talking about. Quite chilling:

    America’s Adrianople

    Also, there is a new thread going, here:


  101. Dr Jane Karlsson November 9, 2006 9:15 am

    Thanks, yes I saw it. BTW, I kind of think that as soon as Bush caves in and starts to talk in earnest to the Iranians, he will discover that they are pretty reasonable, and will do all they can to help the US out of Iraq safely. I really think this might have a happy ending. But Bush’s ego will be the price they demand. Worth paying, do you think?

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