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Post Election Potpourri

Posted on November 8, 2006
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The election is over. Gridlock has been achieved. Now onto the hard work of taking back the reigns of power. Is it possible? How will we achieve it?



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155 Comments so far
  1. surfdude November 8, 2006 9:03 pm

    Amazing to watch how this played out - Gridlock and partisan fighting are a sure bet. Yet DOW alltime high. Rummy thrown out - Iraq in disarray - Market up. What would have happened if the Publicans remained in control? Oh - I know - DOW alltime high….

    It seems that Paulson and the gang have everything under control. No matter what happens, the sheeple are pacified as their 401K’s go up and up and up (and their purchasing power down, down, down, but who cares?)

    Unless this house of cards falls and the poeple are stung with financial pain, it will be business as usual. I hate to say it (over and over), untill the masses get really mad and suffer financially from this game that is being played, we will see more of the same.

    Oh look - HEADLINE - DOW hits 40,000 and the people cheer. SUBHEAD: Milk $21.50 gallon, bread $14.99 loaf……….

  2. Rich November 8, 2006 10:29 pm

    The elites have just performed microscopic surgery on the psyche of America!

    Think about it. The US population is pissed off and almost to a person is demanding change. So we get the dems in control of congress and the senate and Rummy’s head on a plate, and that’s it.

    The elite have established some new boundaries for playing the game, they now have more info on what the US populace is prepared to accept, and it really hasn’t cost them much at this point. There is no threat of losing power, of being exposed, etc. The people are still oblivious to the Fed and it’s true nature, to the creation of credit/money from thin air. All is good in elite land, and all it cost was a slight change of personel and some pork for the dems.

    If I remember correctly only ONE congressman voted against the Patriot Act, so unless we just voted out hundreds of treasonous congressmen we are still living with the bastards in power who sold us out!

    Onwards with the Big Game!

    Cheers Rich

  3. zephyr November 9, 2006 6:21 am

    I finally went to xat.org regarding the history of money and all I can say is WOW! I knew much of this already, but like cornhusker said, when you see it all in one essay, it’s quite astounding. So I don’t think anybody can seriously say it’s just a conspiracy theory regarding a secret ruling elite. Hey, when you have that much dough… Anyway, it looks like they’ve been manipulating the world for generations. And it looks like their ultimate plan for world power is coming closer to fruition. It really will be the ultimate battle of good vs. evil that so many had prophesied, including the bible.

    I’m sure alot of you might think that loony but it really is more than coincidence. Is it a self-fulfilling prophecy…maybe. It is really astounding that billions of people allow themselves to be bullied into submission by what really amounts to so few people. Ignorance is the biggest reason I guess. These people have been so sly over the years in setting up the perfect system for their ultimate wealth. It’s not like we weren’t warned. If only people bothered to learn their history….warnings from Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Woodrow Wilson. I wish we had some potential leader in the here and now with steel balls. Who am I kidding, he would be assassinated in the blink of an eye.

    It really is like the Matrix. What a scam has been perpetrated on the world! And so much blood has been spilled so that the rich could get ultra-rich. Put on your hard hats….if the elites can pull the strings like this essay on xat.org proposes, it’s only a matter of time before we’re looking at a depression. All the dominoes have been put in place….they just need one precise push.

  4. Cornhusker November 9, 2006 6:47 am

    I realize I’m risking losing any cred that I have here…however, this is worth mentioning:

    Presently 24 states have deregulated energy markets, which means re-sellers can come in and buy huge chunks of energy from the producers and sell it at a lower price…all of this is gov’t mandated, so the producers HAVE to play the game.

    Anyway, there is one company (tiny) that is making some serious headway in the Texas market and just became profitable two quarters ago. There are only 3 million shares outstanding, and insiders own roughly 55% of the company and the top executives are taking salaries of $0. There are warrants out there now that will likely eventually dilute the current shares by almost 50%, however revenues are growing at a healthy clip and they just bought a profitable company that helps other large businesses manage their energy consumption (another hot market now).

    I own 2,500 shares of this company at $5.90/share. The current price is around $5.75 and I would only purchase shares with a limit-order, due to the low float/daily volume.

    Are you guys interested in knowing who this company is? If I get 5 affirmatives, then I’ll tell you. If not, I won’t. I’m not “pumping” this stock as I intend on holding these shares “forever”.

    By the way, just yesterday, my brother was telling me how he heard on some web-cast radio program about the “oil-conspiracy” that there is no way organic material could the basis for petroleum at the depths they are presently drilling…”absolutely impossible” is what one anonymous Big Oil platform manager said on the show…he also said that everyone in the industry knows this…isn’t that funny…the possibility that oil could be 100 times more plentiful than we’re being told, yet we pay such a huge percentage of our GDP to get it.

    I wonder where all that money ultimately goes? What would those people do to protect their interests? Scary.

  5. Rich November 9, 2006 6:59 am

    Hey zephyr, you took the red pill! Well done my friend!

    Now overlay the message from V for Vendetta and you can see that the Warchowski brothers have done their homework!

    I carved a V pumpkin for Halloween and bought a copy of the movie to remind myself each November 5th of the need for a lot of change!

    Cheers Rich

  6. Cornhusker November 9, 2006 7:05 am


    You should add the link to this discussion on the main page if you want people to find it.

    What a beautiful day…we should hit 76 degrees today in Nebraska…hit 80 yesterday.

  7. zephyr November 9, 2006 7:15 am


    check this one out, well worth reading.

    Rich, haven’t seen V For Vendetta yet but will have to check it out now.

  8. Administrator November 9, 2006 7:15 am

    Thanks Cornhusker,

    So I can’t resist - what is the stock?

    Here is the link to the History of Money article, from Cornhusker.


    Excellent, and worth the read.

    Dow “tanking” - down 42, which seems to be about the downside limit these days. Should start to rally around 2:00. Here is another excellent article for the bears who are left

    Sell Dow 12,000, at Lew Rockwell


  9. Administrator November 9, 2006 7:27 am

    Okay, and one more because Dr. Jane mentioned something about it on the other thread:

    America’s Adrianople

    A chilling vision of how the US could lose its entire Army in Iraq. Well worth the read.


  10. Sapiens November 9, 2006 7:29 am

    zephyr Says:
    November 9th, 2006 at 6:21 am

    It really will be the ultimate battle of good vs. evil that so many had prophesied, including the bible.



    Consequences are not hard to predict when you know the cause and effect of actions that lead to those consequences. The Bible contains Truth, since Truth is eternal and invariable; it was foreseeable that we would end up in this mess, if we didn’t heed its advice.

    I’m sure alot of you might think that loony but it really is more than coincidence.

    It may seem loony when you hear it, because it’s so preposterous any person with a minimal sense of right and wrong can understand it is wrong, and has a hard time believing it could be true. Yet, once the veil has been lifted and the deceit revealed, no one is willing to continue to be a slave voluntarily.

    And yes, it is really like the Matrix and awakening by takin the Red Pill:


    All the dominoes have been put in place….they just need one precise push.

    It may seem that way, but we can defeat them!

    How? You may ask. Simple, by sharing the Truth with those around you.

    There is hope, my friend, this is what makes life worth living for the sake of living! Like you stated; “It really will be the ultimate battle of good vs. evil…”


  11. Cornhusker November 9, 2006 7:34 am


    Since YOU asked, I’ll go ahead and wave my “5 affirmation” requirement prior to disclosure:)

    I’m counting on this company to be my first 100-bagger…we shall see. Enjoy:



    I have roughly 8% of my portfolio in this company…the other 92% is cash/CD’s/Treasuries. Absolutely do your own due diligence before buying any stock…I am not recommending that anyone buy this stock…just sharing. (Sorry, I wouldn’t feel right about sharing this without the legal disclaimer:)

  12. John G November 9, 2006 7:47 am

    “but we can defeat them!”

    “We”? We are the ones who elect the people who maintain their positions of power by “giving” us the material wealth we want and demand. Both the Ds and the Rs have learned how to buy votes using the Fed’s limitless printing press for fiat money. What we are witnessing is the ultimate and predictable end for any political system with too much democracy.

  13. Cornhusker November 9, 2006 8:03 am


    As you will remember, I was 100% equities several weeks ago. Sold out, except for AMEN, and made a 6% profit in less than six weeks…not bad. Basically, I’m now on-board with the whole deflation scenario, but I still believe AMEN will be a 100-bagger for me…may take several years though.

    Next purchase will be $300 gold in ‘09.

  14. Cornhusker November 9, 2006 8:50 am


  15. Cornhusker November 9, 2006 8:57 am

    I will check back here in exactly one year…between now and then I predict the following:

    1. A strong push by Congress for compulsary military service by all U.S. citizens.

    2. 9,000 DJIA

    3. $400 gold

    Ahem…Adieu…Adios…Au revoir.

  16. Makia November 9, 2006 9:02 am


    . . .


    . . .


    . . .

    . . . that’s the real thinking that got us here.

    If you go back and read the Constitution, you’ll see that all the problems are from not doing what it says is the law of the land.

    “Dmocracies” that have fallen fall because they are not true democracies. . . and The People are duped into thinking that they are. SHAME on both sides.

    How is it democracy when less than half of eligible people vote?

    No, the problem isn’t the U.S. Constitution, it’s that as soon as the darn thing was adopted “they” started dismantling it from behind the scenes. The People get used to it and assume “this is the way it was intended,” over generations. At this point there is very little difference between the economic and political structure of China and the U.S. I wouldn’t call either a democracy, representative republic is a farce, and I wouldn’t call ancient Greece a democracy either.

    These societies fail because the people are convinced to eat shit and like it. Shame on the people for remaining ignorant - but that it a problem of our race, not our political systems.

    In a better civilization people are aware of spiritual truths and live by them. You can legislate consciousness or morality.

    Best we can do is speak truth. I think that’s what we’re doing in here, so that’s awesome. And we refine and encourage eachother. Very awesome. Not a whole lot more any of us can do ‘cept look in our individual hearts and minds and make sure we know we are doing our best.


  17. Joe M November 9, 2006 9:13 am

    I will check back here in a year from now and predict the following:

    DJIA 900
    Gold 4000
    US status: Third World


  18. zephyr November 9, 2006 9:14 am

    I appreciate what you say Sapiens. I am a firm believer, if you’ve read my prior posts, I think I have made such references. I guess I just preface most of my comments as if I’m speaking to an atheist/agnostic because I work in an industry (tv) which is predominantly non-religious or Jewish, so you can see why I’m used to being tentative.

    Believe me, I do share what I know and what I’ve learned constantly, much to my detriment most times (although I’ve also woken up alot of people, or at least got them thinking) because most people don’t see the Matrix for what it is. But I keep trying because I feel it my moral duty. Sometimes I feel like John the Baptist, you know, the guy everyone thinks is nuts. That can be a little trying, but who said it would be easy, right?

    Plus I always try to be a little subtle with my faith because there are so many pushy, overwhelming people who turn out to be hypocrites, thereby giving religion a bad name and actually turning people from God. I would never want to do that. Actions, not just words. Jesus didn’t force anybody to believe anything, He always left it up to the individual. And he told his apostles, if you and your message weren’t accepted on your travels, shake the dust from your feet and move on.

    And I know, good ultimately triumphs. And I’m pretty much at peace with my daily life. I know God provides just as He feeds the birds and clothes the fields in majestic colors. However, I’m fully aware it gets pretty ugly in between the here and now, and the ultimate there. That’s what gets a little scary sometimes. Hell, I think I would actually be crazy if I wasn’t a little nervous of what’s coming now that I’ve taken the red pill.

    Anyway, peace, brother!

  19. Makia November 9, 2006 9:17 am

    As far as the Matrix goes. I think that the final metaphor is that we don’t get rid of the matrix, we acknowledge it. As such we can become quite powerful - beyond the average folks dreams - not that our lives are somehow “perfect.” With great power comes great responsibility. That’s the most we can do. All the other metaphors about “the others” and “the agents” remain valid.

    For now. . .

  20. zephyr November 9, 2006 9:27 am

    Cornhusker, you’re high as a kite. It may not be a year but Joe M is alot closer to what will actually happen. Cornhusker, are you schizophrenic???? How can you make that prediction after telling us all to read the history of money at xat.org? You think current economic conditions got to this point by accident? The US is BANKRUPT!!! It’s all smoke and mirrors right now….how long do you actually think that will hold? And if the xat essay is accurate in saying the last depression was brought about on purpose by the central banks, where some people made a ton of money off of others misery, just what makes you think it won’t happen again? Gold and the Dow were next door neighbors 25 years ago….they’re about to get reacquainted.

  21. ronandreas November 9, 2006 9:45 am

    I highly recommend Dr. Gold’s book The Deep Hot Biosphere. You will have a new understanding of the physical world. Another author, Peter Kropotkin has written on abiotic oil. Most Russian geologists conform to this theory, though little has been translated into English. Much of this knowledge is proprietary and not widely shared. Again, while this theory proposes that petroleum is produced in an ongoing process, it doesn’t suggest that it matches our current rate of extraction. It is interesting that the Russians are finding commercial success at 40,000′ depths.

  22. Administrator November 9, 2006 10:24 am

    Cornhusker - have you lost your nut?

    This is what Marketwatch has to say about AMEN:

    AMEN Properties, Inc. operated under the name Crosswalk. Com, Inc. and was known as the creator of Crosswalk. The Company was originally incorporated in January 1997 as DIDAX Inc. AMEN Properties initially focused on value added plays in three distinct areas that have historically generated large amounts of ordinary income. These three areas are acquiring office space in secondary stagnant markets, in out of favor growth markets, and acquiring investments in oil and gas royalties. Currently there is only one full time employee at AMEN Properties, Inc.

    Sounds like they’re going to get creamed if this is a deflationary collapse, owning all that office property. Notice that last sentence? “Currently, there is only one fulltime employee at AMEN Properties”

    I wonder if that is Cornhusker?

    Or should I say, Corn huckster?

    What is up with you, man?

  23. Sapiens November 9, 2006 10:58 am

    zephyr Says:
    November 9th, 2006 at 9:14 am

    Believe me, I do share what I know and what I’ve learned constantly, much to my detriment most times (although I’ve also woken up alot of people, or at least got them thinking) because most people don’t see the Matrix for what it is. But I keep trying because I feel it my moral duty. Sometimes I feel like John the Baptist, you know, the guy everyone thinks is nuts. That can be a little trying, but who said it would be easy, right?

    I know what you mean, don’t despair since it is not an easy task. Jesus knew this full well, that is why he said what you quote:

    Jesus didn’t force anybody to believe anything, He always left it up to the individual. And he told his apostles, if you and your message weren’t accepted on your travels, shake the dust from your feet and move on.

    Everything at its due time.

    If I may, let me share with you some insight That may alleviate some of the sting we feel when those that are not able to grasp the Truth are dismissive.

    While studying the Calculus and the concept of limits was introduced to me I had a revelation. We need change; we need the duality of right and wrong. Without change there is beginning or end, no time, no movement; everything is one and the same.

    In Truth, there is Life and Death, simple verifiable facts. Yet, if you decide to die, there is no more physical you; there is no more volition from you, which means that those left behind in their common reality only have left the consequences of your actions (which include your spoken or written words and their accord or disagreement with your physical actions).

    Should you decide to live, Life gives you the opportunity to make choices, to exercise your volition. In Life there is hope, there is Faith, there is Existence. So, in Life there is the provability of Eternal Life, while in Death there is non-existence.

    Having chosen to live it is very difficult to see others choose Death, that is part of the pain we feel when others are dismissive of the Truth.

    But there is more, beware of Pride, beware of the euphoric feeling that you received when those around you give you their attention and admiration. It is a fine line we must walk between right and wrong. Other’s adulation can lead us to the path of Death and our destruction for we may come to believe we are infallible. You must be vigilant and humble to ask for wisdom and guidance while thoughts of self-righteousness cloud our judgment and our moments of contemplation, meditation and prayer.

    It is said we were made in God’s image, so we have been given the ability to understand, choosing to understand is another matter. In contemplation, I asked why there was much evil in the World and I came across this:

    11.2 She cried out, saying: “Woe to you, Devil. For what reason do you fight against us? What concern do you have with us? What have we done to you that you should persecute us so grievously? Why does your malice extend to us?
    11.3 Did we ever take your glory from you or cause you to be without honor? Why do you persecute us, O enemy, impiously and jealously unto death?”
    Fall of Satan

    12.1 Groaning, the Devil said: “O Adam, all my enmity, jealousy, and resentment is towards you, since on account of you I was expelled and alienated from my glory, which I had in heaven in the midst of the angels. On account of you I was cast out upon the earth.”
    12.2 Adam answered: “What have I done to you?
    12.3 What fault do I have against you? Since you have not been harmed nor injured by us, why do you persecute us?”
    13.1 The Devil answered: “Adam what are you saying to me? On account of you I was cast out from heaven.
    13.2 When you were formed, I was cast out from the face of God and was sent forth from the company of the angels. When God blew into you the breath of life and your countenance and likeness were made in the image of God, Michael led you and made you worship in the sight of God. The Lord God then said: ‘Behold, Adam, I have made you in our image and likeness.’
    14.1 Having gone forth Michael called all the angels saying: ‘Worship the image of the Lord God, just as the Lord God has commanded.’
    14.2 Michael himself worshipped first then he called me and said: ‘Worship the image of God Jehovah.’
    14.3 I answered: ‘I do not have it within me to worship Adam.’ When Michael compelled me to worship, I said to him: ‘Why do you compel me? I will not worship him who is lower and posterior to me. I am prior to that creature. Before he was made, I had already been made. He ought to worship me.’
    15.1 Hearing this, other angels who were under me were unwilling to worship him.
    15.2 Michael said: ‘Worship the image of God. If you do not worship, the Lord God will grow angry with you.’
    15.3 said: ‘If he grows angry with me, I will place my seat above the stars of heaven and I will be like the Most High.’
    16.1 Then the Lord God grew angry with me and sent me forth with my angels from our glory. On account of you we were expelled from our dwelling into this world and cast out upon the earth.
    16.2 Immediately we were in grief, since we had been despoiled of so much glory,
    16.3 and we grieved to see you in such a great happiness of delights. 16:4 By a trick I cheated your wife and caused you to be expelled through her from the delights of your happiness, just as I had been expelled from my glory.”
    17.1 Hearing this, Adam cried out with a great shout because of the Devil, and said: “O Lord my God, in your hands is my life. Make this adversary of mine be far from me, who seeks to ruin my soul. Give me his glory which he himself lost.”
    17.2 Immediately the Devil no longer appeared to him.
    17.3 Adam truly persevered for forty days standing in penitence in the waters of the Jordan.

    It was Satan’s exercise of his volition that made him fall from grace. It is our choice and volition of not heeding the Truth that leads us to Death.

    I will share with you the secret of what it means to gain the whole world yet losing your soul for it at another post.

    And peace be with you my dear friend,


  24. et al November 9, 2006 10:59 am

    It looks as though the Marketwatch info on Amen Prop is a bit outdated. For what it’s worth, I found this on Yahoo:

    “AMEN Properties, Inc., together with its subsidiaries, engages in the ownership and management of real estate, oil and gas, and energy-related business properties in the United States. As of March 31, 2006, its portfolio included real estate property consisting of ownership in two office properties located in Midland, Texas; and two oil and gas properties located in Nowata County, Oklahoma and in Hemphill County, Texas. The company also sells electricity, and provides the related billing, customer service, collection, and remittance services ranging from residential and small business customers to large commercial, industrial, and governmental/institutional customers. As of December 31, 2005, it provided energy products and services to approximately 2,000 retail electricity customers. The company was founded in 1993. It was formerly known as Crosswalk.com, Inc. and changed its name to Amen Properties, Inc. in 2003. The company is headquartered in Midland, Texas.”

    Also, their revenues climbed a little over 30% last quarter over quarter. I checked on the real estate holdings and they sold their office buildings on September 29, 2006 to focus on the energy business. I’m not sticking up for Cornhukster, but I am always interested in potential value plays. I may buy some of this, not sure yet.

  25. Sapiens November 9, 2006 11:03 am


    The link to the above quoted text.


  26. ronandreas November 9, 2006 11:38 am

    et al, I suppose oil and gas may do well as long as we see real growth. Or if our government de-stabilizes global energy markets. On the other hand, in an economic contraction, energy will quickly fall to the cost of the marginal producer.

  27. Rich November 9, 2006 11:40 am

    I’d rather invest in precious metals exploration companies. A nice diversified portfolio of 20 Canadian and US explorers should do it.

    Check this out: http://www.gold-stocks.com/

    Look at some of the returns on some of these stocks in just one day. Do some research, pick 20 and sit back and wait!

    You do need to actively trade if you engage in this stuff.

    Cheers Rich

  28. Makia November 9, 2006 12:19 pm

    “Heaven and hell on earth are real, and you do go there on your next breath, and your choices take you there. I think we agree on the most practical points that making the choices that are in harmony w/ the creator is the way to find heaven; but trying to find the “perfect utopia” where you are always right and everyone always agrees with you; or “God” is always right and everyone always agrees with him - the streets are paved with gold and there’s no oil because everyone just flies around with their wings (which kind of defeats the purpose of streets) - that this place exists either on Earth or in some kind of “After Life” is an ego myth, IMHO (well not just mine).

    No, fortuneately (and unfortuneately) we reap the rewards and the tough lessons right here on this wonderful planet. That is the true beauty and nature of a physical planet. And when you die, and your debts aren’t paid, it doesn’t absolve you, nor are you “punished” for eternity. Nope, the debts either stay in the same form or take on a new form and you still have to learn and do what you’ve got to do to pay them - or live for millennia in debt, in many respects its up to you.

    Rule 1: The universe seeks to find balance out of design - but if it were designed to constantly _be_ in perfect balance on every level there’d be nothing to do at all (We Are Custodians)

    Rule 2: Pay now or pay later

    My advice for anyone who cares to hear: Pay now.

    Sometimes our parents don’t teach us well (a great case could be made that humans are just in an age of darkness at this time, so don’t hold it against your parents, that will make you miserable - honor thy mom & pop the best you can). But once you know, you can’t “unknow.” When people know that they shouldn’t be buying this thing they can’t afford, and they do it anyway, that’s when the big debts start. And once you go down that path a little bit, its harder and harder to get out. Case in point, I’d say there’s a good number of people who once in too much debt try and find some way to _barrow_ themselves out. Been there, done that.

    I’m not a fan of the “banks” or the “kings”, but I won’t blame them for my debts or problems, either. We all have to live with our own actions. Once a person sees “the light” nothing except themselves can keep them away from it, and sometimes not even that.

    I understand a lot about the myth of a permenant “after” life and why it makes sense and why its appealing; but on a mass scale I only see it leading to fear or irresponsibility. Real life is not about fear, and responsibilty is just another way of saying “treat others as _you_ want to be treated.” That can be interpreted as being very selfish. But actually, to me, it simply encourages introspection. I can be “angry” with someone if I would want them to treat me the same way if I were doing what they’re doing. Thus, Jesus was _not_ a pacifist, though he only _chose_ to use his temper when he thought it was the right thing to do. He questioned his friends and made them uncomfortable when he thought it was the right thing to do - when he thought _he_ would want to be made to feel that way if (by his perception) roles were reversed. So his friends and family may have (prabably did) disagreed with him sometimes - but in circumspect the man acted with an enormous amount of integrity.”

    . . . Yes, this is a reposted comment, but I thought it was a good addition to this thread.

  29. arawa November 9, 2006 12:21 pm

    I think we all pretty much agree that elections are completely manipulated and this one is no exception. The GOP allowed (with some judicious tweaking) the Dems to take over both houses giving the American people a false sense of power and optimism. Think about all the oppressive legislation that has passed in the last month with hardly an outcry. Your Rights have gone down the tube. If something happens (before January) and a state of emergency is declared, both houses will be replaced by a single authority, Bush/Cheyney. Remember the statement ‘if Dems win the terrorists win’. Expect false flag ops, bird flu and economic collapse on the radar. Why is the US Navy (and Brits) in the middle east? Not for ‘exercises’ surely. I so wish I am wrong.

  30. et al November 9, 2006 12:40 pm

    I checked today’s price on that Amen Prop stock you guys were discussing. It trades on Nasdaq and it’s up 6.5% this afternoon. Maybe it’s worth checking out? I think I’ll pick up a couple thousand shares tomorrow if the price stays in the 6-buck range. Why not?

  31. Makia November 9, 2006 1:00 pm

    Okay, I just have to point out that it’s RIDICULOUS to say that the GOP allowed the Dems to win. This is something that ticks me off the most about intelligent people who “call themselves” Democrats.

    It is true that it doesn’t matter to the PTB who wins, and they do manipulate these things. But to say that the R’s let the D’s win is silly. The PTB did so, but not the Republicans. These are two different things. The PTB is related to the R’s in the same way that it’s related to the D’s.

    STOP HATING THE REPUBLICANS! Your anger is misplaced! And for those of you that are conservatives: STOP HATING THE DEMS! Your anger is misplaced!

    Please chew on this you politicos.

    Me personally I define myself as a conservative, but if i were going to use the verb “hate” it would be: I HATE BOTH OF THEM! We don’t have two parties, we have two sides of ONE FACTION! It IS a big game to the PTB! They let the power shift a little bit TO LET US THINK WE HAVE SOME POWER! It is ALL A FARCE! [breath, breath, breath]

    Please chew on this and let me know what you think.

    Again arawa, it the saddest thing to me to hear someone say that the GOP let the D’s win. Both sides are corrupted. I do not want to be Rev. Killjoy, but to think The People have some kind of savior in the Democrat party is JUST AS RIDICULOUS to think the R’s stand for conservativism and moral values.

  32. Sapiens November 9, 2006 1:40 pm


    Growth Causes Inflation?

    Steve Saville

    “Central bankers will regularly refer to something called “the rate of economic growth consistent with low inflation” as if a higher rate of real economic growth would be expected to lead to troublesome increases in the general price level. The implication is that inflation occurs because the economy, for some unspecified reason, begins to charge ahead at an excessive speed, and that when this happens it falls upon the central bank to do something to solve the problem.

    Central bankers, however, have an excuse for spreading misinformation because one of their primary job requirements is to deceive. In order to maintain confidence in the monetary system the central bank must be vigilant in its efforts to direct attention away from the true source of the inflation (the central bank itself) and towards things that don’t cast aspersions on the nature of today’s national currencies. In this respect, ‘too strong’ economic growth is just a convenient excuse for a general rise in the price level, as are, from time to time, things such as oil supply shocks, the weather, increased Chinese consumption of commodities and the wage-hike demands of labour unions.”

  33. arawa November 9, 2006 2:08 pm

    Makia, I absolutely agree with you. I am neither Democrat nor Republican nor American by the way. They are both different sides of the same coin, of course. Doesn’t matter which side ‘rules’. I’ve expressed myself badly, GOP should read PTB.
    Kind regards to you

  34. Sapiens November 9, 2006 2:12 pm


    The Anatomy of Deflation
    By George Reisman
    Posted on 8/18/2003

    “Deflation is usually thought to be a synonym for falling prices. There could be no more serious error in all of economics. ”

  35. muleskinner November 9, 2006 2:23 pm

    I’m happy for the winners and wish the losers better luck next time.

    Democrats regaining control of the House of Representatives isn’t much help, you know. It’s like going from the sublime to the ridiculous. Good Grief

    Even more absurdness.

    The green numbers went away again.

  36. Makia November 9, 2006 3:38 pm

    Arawa, I certainly meant no offense to you, just the idea. There are Bush and Republican haters all over, and I’m not a fan of them at all but to think that the Dems are any better or would do anything different is absurd to me. Each side of the faction simply caters to different sets of people and funds - and often the same people and funds.

    Yes, we are on the same page. Doesn’t matter which side has a majority.

    As far as why the Democrats “won” this election, what do you think?

  37. Makia November 9, 2006 3:40 pm

    Muleskinner #35, what do you mean “sublime to ridiculous”? And what do you mean about “the green numbers”?

  38. ronandreas November 9, 2006 6:13 pm

    et al, maybe this will help you decide:

    October 16th, 2006
    Demand for OPEC oil to fall 0.2mbd to 28.9mbd -OPEC

    The demand for OPEC crude in August September is expected to average 28.9 million barrels per day (mbd), representing a downward revision of 0.2 mbd versus August, said the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC).

    But in 2007, the demand for OPEC crude is expected to average 28.1 mbd, representing a decline of 0.8 mbd versus 2006. On a quarterly basis, the forecast shows that demand for OPEC crude is expected at 29.2 mbd in the first, 27 mbd in the second, 28 mbd in the third and 28.4 mbd in the fourth quarter.

    It also said that weaker-than-expected demand in the first half of 2006 has dragged down world oil demand by 0.1 mbd

  39. Sapiens November 9, 2006 7:40 pm


    A Note from the US Consulate in Hong Kong

    American Citizens Services Newsletter

    Pandemic Influenza — Preparing for Possible Shelter-In-Place
    U.S. Consulate General for Hong Kong and Macau

    November 3, 2006

    The U.S. Department of State recently sent a cable to all diplomatic and consular posts entitled “Pandemic Influenza: Preparing for Possible Shelter-In-Place”. The cable’s main intent was to provide guidance to all staff regarding “shelter-in-place”. That is, in the event of severe pandemic influenza with high morbidity, the public may be advised to self-quarantine. Therefore, current guidance notes that families should be prepared to “shelter-in-place” for up to twelve weeks, and maintain sufficient food and water supplies to accommodate that entire period.


  40. muleskinner November 9, 2006 8:24 pm

    the red and green number comments are for humorous purposes.

    Berkshire Hathaway is up to 107,000 dollars per share. I’ll be buying ten thousand of them tomorrow.

    The ‘lection is of little meaning at this stage of the game. It went from the sublime to the ridiculous.

    Do you expect me to believe it is now all going to be better?

    The amount of money spent on advertising, printing costs, airtime, on and on and on doesn’t solve any problems.

    It’s the same old same old, it never changes or stops.

  41. Gemstocks November 9, 2006 10:05 pm

    I’m personally happy with the election results. At least it forced George W. Bush to get Don Rumsfeild out of the White House. With Rumsfield gone there’s a little bit better chance to get our troups out alive.

    I’ve read some outrageous things in the post in this thread. Just a few weeks ago people were posting informative tidbits in BULLNOTBULL threads.

    Now it seems like everybody on this site is trying to show how deep they can get into conspiracy theories and political delusions. I’m tired of wadding through the doo doo to see if there is a gem of truth in it.

    I guess I better go back to http://WWW.GOLD-EAGLE.COM or http://WWW.FREEMARKETNEWS.COM. I waste a lot of time reading through their garbage but at least they seem rational.

  42. Dr Jane Karlsson November 10, 2006 4:33 am

    ronandreas, can I talk about oil again? Let me say at once that I don’t believe oil is dead plants and animals. It’s abiotic as the Russians have said for years, at least most of it and possibly all of it.

    But I’m not sure about the idea that oil is renewable and constantly produced. I’ve Googled it, and all I can find are statements like this: ‘any geologist will tell you that oil is created by the magmas of the earth’.

    I am not aware that magma contains hydrocarbons. It seems to me that the oil was probably produced a very long time ago when the earth was formed.

    Do you have any facts or arguments on this?

  43. Makia November 10, 2006 5:30 am

    Just “the mood in the room” I guess gemstocks. Election times are frustrating for me, personally. I usually listen to the radio alot to get my daily dose of worldy happenings, but the past few months its just been “If the Dems get elected we’re gonna have terrorists walking the streets,” and “The evil Republians are with Bush 99% of the time.” Either I’m paranoid and my constitutional study is meaningless, or John Q. Public has let the government and business get so far out of reach and sanction that. . . Well it’s clear that those entities don’t exercise self-restraint. So what “interesting tidbits” do you expect?

    I take everything with a grain of salt, so alls I have left is “informed” theories.

    One of my core interests is health, and public heath and the healthcare system. And even though I embrace homeopathic/naturopathic modalaties, I don’t even trust “studies” that confirm these paradigms, much less the shuckster science that comes out of the modern system. Basically, I trust what makes sense. . . and I think my “sense” is more refined than most folks all wrapped up in “science.” It’s hard to put into few words and not cite examples. . . but all of this is another thread altogether.

    My point is that we need to refine eachother’s thinking, IMO. We can’t trust most of our mass media sources, and we have to be extremely careful when choosing the sources we do listen to. For that matter most of us find and beleive what confrims what we already want to beleive anyway.

    I think the best “practical” discussion going on at bullnotbull has been about peak oil, but I have nothing to add because oil prices are going to go through the roof either way. Either because demand outstrips supply or because dollars are worthless. . . Then peak oil or no oil is going to get “cheaper” but all the problems with the financial systems and the government will remain unless we do something about it. And the U.S PTB are likely not going to give up “empire” status easily, so their going to try and drag me and my kids and maybe their kids into war after war. If the best thing I can do is get out of the way then that’s what I’m gonna do. If the next best thing I can do is make these suggestions to others and they don’t get all wrapped up in the politics of the day but realize the “true” meaning of life then that’s what I’m gonna do.

    If someone doesn’t want to listen they can tell me to shut up. It’s happened before. I don’t want to waste my breath anyway, its too valuable.

    So if you think the “conspiracy” “crap” is not worth your time, then challenge it in discussion or go somewhere else. I think that the “BullNotBull” moniker is quite appropriate for all of the discussions I’ve seen here.

    The ideas that we have a benign or benevolent representative government or “free” markets are bull. Its admitiedly tough for me to have coversations about either without acknowldeging that “opinion” in myself.

  44. zephyr November 10, 2006 5:44 am

    Gemstocks,what’s irrational? Thinking that getting our troops out because Rumsfeld is gone is irrational. On the simplest of notes, how many countries do we leave once we’ve established a presence? We still have troops in WW2 countries, S Korea, etc. If we were even thinking of leaving, why would we be building the largest embassy ever?
    Of course, there’s the oil….we didn’t make this effort for nothing. And Lastly, the place is now a disastor, I can’t see us making a graceful exit.

    Oh, I’m sure this falls in the realm of conspiracy theories, but Israel doesn’t want us to leave either. And doesn’t the US dance when Israel tells us to? I’ll get into a full discussion of why I believe we’re Israel’s puppet some time soon, but suffice to say if you think any troops are leaving Iraq, you’re the one with the irrational beliefs.

  45. Makia November 10, 2006 5:47 am

    http://www.mises.org/story/2369 :

    “As Murray Rothbard has shown, it was precisely this gold exchange system that was the economic basis of American imperialism in the late 19th century. It was mainstream American economists who put forward the theory of “capitalistic imperialism” that helped justify the government’s overseas adventures to open up foreign markets for American business.

    These economists argued that America had too much capital and that it was vital for the survival of “advanced capitalism” to forcibly open markets to American investment and goods. Economist Charles Conant wrote that “America must be prepared to use force if necessary.” America, he argued, must not be held back by the abstract theories and extreme conclusions of our Founding Fathers and that “only with the firm hand of the responsible governing races … can … progress be conveyed to the tropical and undeveloped countries.” (Rothbard, History of Money and Banking in the United States, pp. 210–212)”

    The story of how representative democracy came to this “land” and drove another culture (”American Indian”) out is quite interesting. But my question is: why is the U.S. Constitution so great? My next question is: why is the U.S. economy so great?

  46. zephyr November 10, 2006 5:54 am


    An interesting graph regarding the housing boom/bust by a Yale professor. Like the Great Mogambo says- We’re all freakin’ doomed!!

  47. zephyr November 10, 2006 6:00 am

    Disregard that last link, I screwed it up. If you want to see the graph go to


    then go to news for Aug. 28 and click on housing bubble. Very interesting….and we’re still all freakin’ doomed!!

  48. Makia November 10, 2006 6:05 am

    Long live the Great Mogambo!

  49. Makia November 10, 2006 6:11 am

    All that graph does is show how WELLTHY our society has been over the last 6 years! I love this great country.

  50. FeelingWeird November 10, 2006 6:15 am

    Makia Said.

    “”Me personally I define myself as a conservative, but if i were going to use the verb “hate” it would be: I HATE BOTH OF THEM! We don’t have two parties, we have two sides of ONE FACTION! It IS a big game to the PTB! They let the power shift a little bit TO LET US THINK WE HAVE SOME POWER! It is ALL A FARCE! [breath, breath, breath]

    Please chew on this and let me know what you think.”"

    I’ll tell you what I think Makia, not a truer thing has been said on this site, and that’s saying something. Because there are rare few places that you can get as much truth in one place than this site.

    I have come to this unfourtunate truth in the last 3 to 4 years. I have always considered myself a Libertarian(or libertarian, with a small “L”). I falsely believed that if the Libertarian party ever got it’s shit together and could pull a coalition of moderate Dems, and conservative Repubs, that they could turn the country around.

    But of course this is folly. For if its not in the money changers plans to let this happen. I know there have been many references to “The Matrix” in this thread, but the similarities are to many to ignore.

    Many of us feel like Neo as he finally made it to “the source”. And upon leaving the source can tell no one of what he heard there. For it’s so far above most peoples ability to understand or “WANT” to understand. I have all this knowledge as it relates to the monied elites, the federal reserve, and The Bible. Yes I throw the Bible in there as the ultimate proof that this has gone on for milenia. Even going back to the Romans and Greeks, the monied elites have always pulled the strings from behind the scenes, and many a good man(woman), have lost their minds in persuit of these shadowy people.

    I can’t remember the ancient philospher who said this, I think he was Roman. But he was a man of great inteligence but lived in a box on the streets of a Roman city. People from far and wide came to talk to this man.

    I know I am horribly crucifying this but it goes something like this. This man had learned so much and came so close to the edge of insanity, because of the knowledge he possesed. When asked what brought him back, or kept him from going over the edge? He said “I just tend my garden”.

    Many think that this means that he just kept to himself and didn’t worry about others. I dissagree, I think he meant it quite literally. Because I think many people here came to many of the same conclusion as this philosopher did. When you see the magnitude of the illusion that the world operates under, you go through the stages of LOSS. For when you come to these truths it is much like the death of a loved one. It is the loss of your innocence, and the loss of your faith in man. You go through sorrow, denial, anger, bargaining. You can yo-yo through these feeling for decades or a lifetime if you let it. God knows how many people never came back from those journy’s. But some make it to acceptance. As I’m sure many on this site have. And I don’t know about you, but the first thing I thought about when I got to acceptance was wanting to tend a garden. I’ve never felt such a need in my life.

    It gave me a sense of connection to the earth, and to God. It renewed my faith. Gardening is so simple and so real! It is a truth in life in and of itself. It is the basis of all life. I think that’s what he meant..

    Robert NW Ohio

  51. zephyr November 10, 2006 6:41 am

    FeelingWeird….God Bless! It’s very true about going through the stages of Loss upon the learning of all this Info. I went through the stages fairly quickly, fortunately. I think for the most part I’m at acceptance now. That doesn’t mean I’ve given up, but it does give one a different outlook on life. I’ve always been religious/spiritual, and this has brought me back and made my faith even stronger. I truly try to take each day as it comes, one at a time, enjoying it to it’s fullest. If there are indeed dark days coming, I want to make the best of every day right now.

    And when it comes down to it, this too shall pass. David Gilmour laments in Pink Floyd’s Momentary Lapse of Reason-
    A New Machine part 1 & 2….”Don’t worry, nobody lives forever.”

    However bad this gets, it’s just a blip in eternity….nobody lives forever. Sorry if this is over the top philosophical. You have to come to some kind of acceptance and/or turn to your faith….otherwise, knowing the true nature of the beast that is humanity will drive you insane.

  52. ronandreas November 10, 2006 6:47 am

    Dr. Karlson,
    Please read Dr. Gold’s Deep Hot Biosphere, it addresses all your questions and I would be interested to hear what a trained biologist or even a physician thinks of it.

  53. ronandreas November 10, 2006 7:01 am


    “Back in 2000, when homes were worth $11.4 trillion, there were only $4.8 trillion in mortgages against them. In the second quarter of 2006, that mortgage debt increased to a whopping $9.3 trillion.”

  54. Rich November 10, 2006 7:02 am

    I’m with you all the way on this stuff Robert (formerly known as feelingweird, and soon to be known as just a symbol - maybe the peace symbol!?)

    I’ve been through those stages, most of what I felt when I was going through them is now on the depression2.tv site! You were there for most of my catharsis.

    My wife is a big time gardener, so I am involved. But my desire in all of this is to grow vegetables not exotic perenials, etc. This next spring we are dedicated part of the garden to some edible stuff.

    What would Neo do?!

    Hehe, cheers Rich

  55. Dr Jane Karlsson November 10, 2006 7:04 am

    ronandreas, I’ve just read a paper by Thomas Gold called ‘The Deep Hot Biosphere’ from 1992, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 89: 6045. Do you think this paper might be the basis of the book you mention?

    If it is, it means that Gold is not suggesting continuous production of oil. He says at one point: ‘There is every reason to believe that hydrocarbon compounds were incorporated in all of the planetary bodies at their formation.’ Meaning, Earth’s oil was too.

    His work is pretty heavy science, and I would have thought, easy to misinterpret. What do you think? Can you check the book again? Obviously, this is of great importance to the question of Peak Oil.

  56. Rich November 10, 2006 7:14 am

    OK, here comes the post election PTB response to us restless sheeple, this is deep Matrix stuff:

    Read this one:


    Then read this, a couple of mins at most:


    Fascinating stuff if you ask me.

    Cheers Rich

  57. Rich November 10, 2006 7:27 am

    I would’ve thought a simple test of Golds renewable oil theory is a demonstration of where an old well in the US has been refilled with fresh abiotic oil.

    Extraordinary theories require extraordinary proofs, if he is presenting none then the scientific process requires that you massively heavily discount the theory.

    Cheers Rich

  58. larry November 10, 2006 7:41 am

    ABIOTIC OIL:DR.JANE…yes, open to misinterpertations….use common sense and organic chemistry….organic matter(vegetation,jungles,animal,ect) PLUS….low temperature and low pressure=an organic bog or marsh or peat moss…concentrated organic debris in the simplest decomposition and concentration…some pressure with low temperature=coal,a more dense source of burnable organic matter and a less dirty burn than bog moss…..higher pressure and temperature,associated with hundreds to 8 thousand feet maximum + hard rock domes for containment = oil dome….deeper than 8 thousand feet is so much pressure and temperature that oil is further cracked to gas only….also if no rock containment zone exists than you will find neither oil or gas it will oozed out over time…burning all the above releases co2 via combustion…like an endless choking worldwide forest fire….do you think that may alter the atmosphere and acidify the oceans?.i do

  59. Makia November 10, 2006 7:50 am

    FeelingWeird, the amount of comfort i’ve gotten from your words of literally “tending a garden,” is beyond words. And thank you zephyr, also rich, sapiens, muleskinner, surfdude, and a few others who have been willing to indulge in these discussions and speak of human capabilities and self-deceit.

    On the note of tending a garden, i am going to vent something very personal. I don’t have a garden, or the time or land to put it. It makes me so sad inside as that is all i really want to do right now. My wife has known virtually since we met that all of my work and her work was supposed to buy us a small plot of land in the middle of nowhere so that we could be self-sufficient. Today she goes to nursing school and we live in an apartment - and she sometimes questions her desire to live my dream. It makes me very sad to think that she’s working and thinking behind my back to avoid “the middle of nowhere.” Of course self-sufficiency and the security of a rural area is what I’m after before “the middle of nowhere,” and she has agreed with me many times - but seems to “flip flop” so as to make me wonder her intentions. . .

    It wouldn’t bother me, as adults should make their own decisions. If it wasn’t for my children. . .

    Anyways, i personally don’t think that the end of the world is coming. I do think that lots of other people beleive in it and it affects their actions as well as the effects of self-fulfilling prophecy. But i beleive that 100 years from now industrial society will be winding down and the world from most people’s perspective today will have ended. However, i like to focus on how can the pure spiritual tecahings, and skills, be passed on?

    There are some wonderful books by a man named David Hawkins. In his works he “calibrates” the power of the Bible (and many other things) through kinesiologic responses of thousands of people. His findings indicate that certain parts of the Bible are very powerful (truthful) while many others are man made for man’s purposes (forceful). This research indicates that Revelations is a very harmful book, and not based in truth. The “good” books are Genisis, Psalms, Proverbs, and the Gospels, though different verses calibrate differently. For example, it is not truthful that Jesus said “The only way to the father is through me.” Though it is truthful that he said “I am the way.” Revelations calibrates VERY low.

    There is another (IMO) extremely interesting aspect to the currect time and “end of world” prophecies. The Mayan “Long Count” is over 5,000 years long and it ends Dec. 21, 2012. Now that is wild.

    Wanna hear something really weird for me? Obviously anyone who reads my posts can see that I’m a spiritual person as well as a potential paranoid - at the least I’ve had some deep experiences and insights; but this thing is just. . . weird for me. Dec. 21 2012 is the day after my 33rd b-day.

    Now I criticized gemstones for criticizing these posts talking about conspiracy theories, and then I bring this up (I was just re-reminded ofthe Mayan prophecies on a History channel show last night).

    In a previous post, I think it was zephyr or surfdude mentioned feeling like John the baptist. I’m not exactly what you meant but I take it as meaning, “Soylent Green is PEOPLE!!!” Now I was raised catholic, though i no longer consider myself “christian,” except in the sense that Jesus of Nazareth re-reminded folks through actions of good spiritual truths that i strive to live be. And i’ve never looked into where they came up with Jesus being 33 when he died. Either way its been quite an ego trip for me to know that my 33rd b-day has some astrological significance. It’s also been quite an ego trip to know that the world seems a fucked up place going into this astrological event (that happens every 26,000 years).

    If no one wants to touch that with a ten foot pole, then please look at post #45. Why do you think the U.S. Constitution is so great, and why do you think the U.S. economy is so great?

  60. zephyr November 10, 2006 7:52 am

    Rich, is there an end to the depth of the rabbit hole? Read both articles. Must say Lockerbie does surprise me. Maybe it shouldn’t. First article doesn’t surprise….the sheer audacity of it does….the numbers they pulled out of their arse are pretty bold….they must really think the masses are severely stupid and easily manipulated…..Oh, yeah, they are.

  61. Sapiens November 10, 2006 8:05 am


    I will continue with my prior post.

    After getting out of manufacturing, I came to find out the meaning of this question:


    Matthew 16:26

    26 For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life?

    I invested my capital in rental apartment buildings; soon I was looking to reinvest the excess capital stream that was coming in from the buildings into other ventures.

    Being a landlord prepared me to become a money lender, that is, it taught me to have a thick skin and how to deal with difficult people; e.g. dead beats.

    My finance company was successful beyond my wildest dreams! I soon understood what Jesus meant when tempted by Satan in this passage:


    Luke 4:5

    5 The devil, leading him up on a high mountain, showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

    6 The devil said to him, “I will give you all this authority, and their glory, for it has been delivered to me; and I give it to whomever I want.

    7 If you therefore will worship before me, it will all be yours.”

    8 Jesus answered him, “Get behind me Satan! For it is written,’You shall worship the Lord your God, and you shall serve him only.’”

    One of the fundamental secrets behind my success in lending was compound interest.

    See the equation here: http://math2.org/math/general/interest.htm

    Another was that individuals are free to contract their lives away.

    See U.S. Constitution here:


    It was not long thereafter that I knew I could take over the World if I had enough people in debt to me.

    I grew depressed. Money lost its grip on me. Then I understood.

    I haven’t been happier since that revelation.

    Then the question arose in my mind, why did Satan want Jesus to worship him?

    Then I completely understood!

    We have been given Life; that is all we need to achieve whatever we want!

    God is us, we are God! So this explained the Golden Rule to me: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    If I am evil and cruel to others, I am being evil and cruel to myself. If I treat others with dignity and respect, I am doing the same to me.

    Crazy!! I know.

    Even though there are evil people, thieves and murderers in the World, I am no longer afraid, for whatever you want to call Him, Divine Providence, God, Lord, has shown us the way.


  62. FeelingWeird November 10, 2006 8:21 am

    Hey Makia; I’m glad my words gave you some comfort. I hope to give you some more. I also am renting with my wife and two kids. I too went through a period, where all I wanted to do, was get my family away from the city(well we live in a village outside a city), and out to the middle of no where.

    I too was very frustrated by my wife’s inability to see the logic of this move. In the end we have found a compromise. She knows how important “Land” is too me, and I have come to understand her placing importance in “family” and being close to our people(family). We are planning on looking at houses in the spring, and have luckily found an old farm house in our village. The area would have to be considered sub-Urban, but it’s an acre of land, smack dab in the middle of this suburbia.

    No one is looking at it, because it makes little economic sense for the flippers, the amount of work to be done on it, doesn’t justify the price they’d get in a depressed market. The average sub-urban dweller isn’t looking at it, because it isn’t a Mc Mansion. If it can just last on the market another 4 months, we are going to low ball the property. It is termite infested and is in need of some serious repairs. But my thinking is thus. Even if I just get the 1 acre plot and end up living in a barn, I DON’T care, i’ll have my land. We are working on getting her parents to consider moving in with us as they are getting older, and 6 can live a lot cheaper than 4.

    So the point, is to have hope, and to not be so wrapped up in what you want that you disregard your wifes wants. Find a common ground. Because when the shit hits the fan, there will be no “safe” places. Build your life raft where you are and quit hoping for something that may be beyond your reach. I am currently gardening in what are called “earth boxes”. I made them myself. First go around this year was not good, but I learned. I”ll do better next spring.

    Also, in regards to “Revelations”, I completely disagree. That is one of the most profound of all the books of the Bible(at least the parts I have read so far). To me Revelations is not about the end of the world at all. It is a WARNING!! The book of Revelations is warning all of us, to be on the look out for any one/country/state that fits this description. It talks about a world wide system of financial control. Such as the mark of the beast. This is a means of financial control. It says that none shall be allowed to deal in commerce save those that have the mark.

    Well it was written at a time when people were truly “marked”. Either through branding or tattooing. If I’m not mistaken the Roman empire attempted something like this. A system that would not allow anyone to trade within the Roman empire save those that have the Roman mark.

    Apply this to today’s version of the mark. Be it RFID implantables, or a National ID card. Or even the absence of a “real” currency, could be considered a mark.

    The Bible warns over and over and over again about the evils of “MONEY”. But what most people don’t understand (IMHO of course), is that the bible is NOT against commerce or earthly wants and desires. It is against the immoral attaining of these wants and desires. It constantly rails against immoral “money changers” and their wicked money. The Bible says things like fair balances and weights. If this isn’t a slam against fiat money, I don’t know what is. Revelations is a warning to all who read it, to not allow anyone to attain a world wide system of control, for it will be the end of all of us.. That is the warning.. It’s not the Bible fault a bunch of weak minded zealots use it to justify all kinds of evil..

    Sermon over.

    Robert NW Ohio

  63. zephyr November 10, 2006 8:25 am

    Makia, like that little creepy woman in Poltergeist said, “All are welcome.” Thoughts and reflections like that are cool. They only become bad and dangerous when people take them as absolutes thereby designating themselves as some kind of divine prophet (sorta like Bush and the guy from Iran). Which leads me to Revelations….that book has done and continues to do far more damage thru people’s twisted interpretations of it. How can you tell if someones interpretation is right or wrong? Simple….Jesus said you could tell a tree by it’s fruit. Too bad so many so called “Christians” seem to miss verses like that and merely focus on mainly Old Testament and Revelations type verses which allow them to justify their prejudices and hatreds.

    Jesus also said, “Look to take the plank out of your own eye before you seek to remove the speck in your brother’s eye.”

    As far as the Mayans go, my wife and I were joking….maybe it’s as simple as whoever was working on the calendar finally said, “Shit, 5000 years, I think that’s good enough for now.”

    Peace all…..gotta go to work.

  64. ronandreas November 10, 2006 8:55 am

    Dr. Karlson,
    I read the book as a library loaner, so I don’t have it for reference.He seems to be a genious as he has full grasp of geology, biology, astronomy, and physics. In his view, carbon is transformed by anaroebic micro-organisms. This results in gas oil and coal,even diamonds.While he doesn’t state that near surface oil is being replenished at anywhere near the current rate of depletion,his theory does explain why many oil fields do replenish.Some chapters are tough reads, others are quite accessible.

  65. Makia November 10, 2006 8:59 am

    Thanks Robert. What you say about balancing my desires with my wife’s is my M.O., even though that didn’t come out in my post. I am battling a certain degree of frustration right now, due to internal and external circumsances - one day i will look backand realize they are all internal. And
    the specifics of our situations sound more than similar. Thanks man.

    As far as Revelations. . . It is an extremely complex issue. I will tell you though that i beleive it is something of a warning. However i think that the lessons to avoid the terrible circumstances are contained in the truthful parts of “good books.”

    Surfdude and I had a conversation about this - along the context of “punishment or reward in your life after death.” I understand that people with good intentions have tried to scare others into being “good” people - instructing The People of what not to do in order to avoid “eternal punishment.” I understand that it has seemed to work. I told surfdude he sounded like a priest, one of those good priests who means well but is trapped within a proscribed system.

    In fact, i re-posted part of that conversation in #28 on this thread. If you read that it is a pretty decent synopsis of how i feel about the Earth and “after life”. Fear is a part of physical existence , but it should never be a spiritual motivator. So the irony is, i beleive, that the warnings of Revelations will come true from focusing more on [mass consiousness] fear of the negative outcome rather than [mass consiousness] acknowledgement of true power (alignment of human intent with divine). So the irony to me is that despite the author’s intentions, they have unwittingly (or perhaps wittingly, i don’t know) caused the problems they were trying to warn against.

    Another peice of evidence to support that point would just be that Jesus himself never warned against anything bad happening. As an example he told Peter that he would deny his friend, but he didn’t warn his friend of any terrible consequences. As to alignment with divine intent, yes, gardening. We are caretakers of this planet.

    Quantum physics was build on Einstein’s theories, and then Einstein spent his life trying to discredit quantum physics. The reason? Simply, Einstein saw the power of choice, as sapiens also is very quick to emphasize. Q.P. is THE MOST ACCURATE science ever developed by man, but it does not include CHOICE in its equations, so it is powerful as a science, but USELESS to humans (without an understanding of volition). Choice, volition, cannot be understated. That is the ONLY reason I reject prophecy.

    I will not put choice below destiny or prophecy. In the final analysis, and despite many good arguements, it is simply my choice. Sometimes, I think it’s the only thing that keeps me sane with my relationship to Dec. 21 2012!

    much love all

  66. Dr Jane Karlsson November 10, 2006 9:03 am

    Rich, #56, thanks for the links. Here in the UK we are having huge numbers of imaginary terrorist scares, they’ve just put away a Muslim for 40 years for a ‘plot’ that was supposed to be far worse than 911. We’ve had plots to blow up aircraft with liquid explosives that the chemists say are completely impossible. It seems like just about every week we get a new one.

    What appears to be happening is that the Pakistani secret police find people who have links in the UK and torture them so they confess to these plots so Tony Blair can say I told you so. It is really bothering me.

  67. Dr Jane Karlsson November 10, 2006 9:10 am

    Forgot to ask, what does PTB stand for?

  68. LostinTranslation November 10, 2006 9:12 am

    Sapiens, in your post above #23 you state, “Without change there is beginning or end, no time, no movement; everything is one and the same.”

    Did you mean to say, “Without change there is -NO- beginning or end?

    I think that makes sense. LIT

  69. Makia November 10, 2006 9:16 am

    Dr. Jane. PTB is “powers that be.” (Great question! LOL Just figured that one out myself, had never seen it before.) I think if “they” are looking, they are probably more likely looking for NWO. LOL!

    Also, thanks for sharing about your personal experience in U.K. - and as far as them locking up scapegoats. I’m not suprised, but I try not to assume things. Anyway, thanks again.

  70. zephyr November 10, 2006 9:18 am

    Dr Jane, I believe that means Powers That Be….Zephyr.

  71. the stranger November 10, 2006 9:22 am

    Rich, microscopic surgery on the psyche of America… with a political icepick?

    I can’t think of an election that has mixed so many emotions or provoked more though for me. The evidence that voting is flawed and rigged is overwhelming; but, that’s only on the edges. I suspect it’s most useful for the purpose of tipping when it’s already close. I do think that consent is manufactured, and that is the growing problem at the heart of our collective enslavement.

    Still, you can’t help but enjoy so many people voting democrat after being sold it’s a vote for Bin laden. It’s somewhat comforting that he people just wouldn’t buy that. But that’s about where my warm and fuzzy stops. I think it more likely demonstrates that majority of voting people are finally scared, and they came back with the only collective response available.

    The spineless congress and the neo-liberal controlled executive branch already completed the illegal and treasonous gutting of the US Constitution. If the government spending could just slow down, perhaps we could call it merely out-of-control. And the size, Corpgov has become a leviathan. Spending, big government, quick! Bring in the democrats! Part of me thinks this is going too well, for them. You see, I always figured that George Bush was the most honest, accurate face America has worn in a long time; we just hate looking in the mirror.

    Rummy is out but Gates is in; poor Webb is rolling in his grave. Michael, America’s Adrianople, poignant article, powerful line here… “The Democrats taking either or both Houses of Congress, if it happens, will not make any difference. They would rather have the Republicans start and lose another war than prevent a national disaster. Politics comes first and the country second”

  72. FeelingWeird November 10, 2006 9:49 am

    Hey Makia, I agree I think, with most of what you say. Just to clarify, I don’t believe that Revelation’s was ever meant to be prophesy. I think it was a warning plain and simple. Much like if I was to write down that mixing two certain things together will cause an explosion, that wouldn’t be prophesy, it’s me just warning others of something I know.

    But I agree, no matter what the authors intent in Revelations, it no longer matters to the masses. The world described in Revelations is some murcky, shadowy future we are all destined for. Instead of looking at it as the simple warning I think it is.

    Give evil people fiat money, a corrupt Leviathan government from which to operate, mix in some cronies, a pinch of pure evil, and you have the world of Revelations. Instead of accepting as just the way things will be, people should railing against it with all the passion and righteousness they can muster.

    Robert NW Ohio

  73. Sapiens November 10, 2006 9:50 am

    Lost you are correct, thanks for pointing that out.


  74. ronandreas November 10, 2006 10:11 am

    Dr. Jane Karlsson,
    Google terror storm to see info-wars’ new dvd, free online. If you like it, go to info-wars.com and purchase a copy to share with your compatriots.The phony “war on terror” meme seems to be as entrenched among UKans as USAans.

  75. Sapiens November 10, 2006 10:24 am


    Still, you can’t help but enjoy so many people voting democrat after being sold it’s a vote for Bin laden.

    Amazing the power of the placebo effect, huh?

    It’s like the power of the sycophant has over their victim. We all have a weakness for hearing how great we are. In this election, although an illusion of change, it’s still tickles us silly that there is a change of staff.



  76. Sapiens November 10, 2006 10:27 am


    About Webb on your above post, are you talking about Gary Webb?



  77. surfdude November 10, 2006 3:45 pm

    This may help with the understanding of Revelations - even the Bible in fact. Many people make the mistake of looking at the evnts in chronological order and as literal events. I believe careful study can showe that much of the Bible is alagory - or types and figures if you will. Also, because God is outside of time, we err when we see everything as then, now and to come. Just a thought…

    Anyway - I like the spiritual talk form many of the posts - it is thoughtful and uplifting. I beleive that there is absolute truth, but it must be saught for diligently. Never follow some holy roller or “religeous” expert. I am a Christian, but I get embarrased by the hoards of frauds out there giving Christianity and spirituality a bad name. I don’t belong to a Church or religeous establishment - as I beleive that so many of them are ALSO into controll and deception, whether knowingly of unknowingly. And I certainly do not consider myself righteous or better than anyone else. I try to live as best I can - but I know that I need a Saviour.

    Therefore I find it refreshing to see so many of the posts dealing with spiritual side of life - because you can not seperate spirituality from reality. There are dark forces at work - and they work through human beings. Remember - Satan wanted to control everything (It is referenced above how he tempted Jesus with the Kingdoms of the world). Think about that - he must have dominion over the world in order to tempt Jesus like that. Otherwise, Jesus would have told him to get lost.

    Satan also used deception, and was called by Jesus the “father of lies”. Sound familiar???

    Also - If I can offer some encouragement to some of you - Never be ashamed or expressing spiritual thoughts or start your posts by saying “this might sound crazy…” or something like that. Some of the deepest thinkers and smartest people were very spiritual - even Einstein beleived in God. Can you imagine that? The more you know - the less you know - and the more you praise Him.

    Ecclesiastes 1:18
    For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

    Isn’t that what we have all been saying?

  78. surfdude November 10, 2006 4:10 pm

    Oh ny the way - To clarify the conversation with Makia - I do not condone fear to motivate people to behave - But “religious establishment” does. Jesus taught thet “the truth will set you free” and that is waht he meant - free of fear of punishment.

    Yet - society has been served well by those who are controlled or regulated by fear. But it is their fault - they do not understand the Bible - and follow religeous leaders who want to control them. But this does serve a purpose.

    All I am saying is that this bad situation has given stability and order to society. Maybe this is needed. Not everyone can handle “freedom”.

    Sorry for sounding like a priest Makia… I don’t mean to.

    Peace and FREEDOM

  79. Makia November 10, 2006 5:46 pm

    For a long time I criticized dogmatic religion, and could not really see any value in it, besides somthing to bring the community together. And i think there are better ways to get that accomplished than the way i’ve seen it done with the Christian Sunday fear and brimstone thing.

    Then in a conversation a guy expressed this thought that religion was a way to encourage people to abandon their animal ways and follow a more humane path. In other words, teach ignorant people that there are big punushments after death for acting greedy or violently or promiscuiously, for the general welfare in other words. That’s a decent arguement that gives the “priests” the benefit of the doubt, that all the fear was created for a “good” reason.

    I was born and raised catholic, and I loved it. I went to a catholic school, i was an altar boy, i paid attention, i knwo all the words and the “secret moves.” I loved the ritual, i loved the incense, i loved the dedication, and particulary i loved the things that Jesus of Nazareth had to say about how to look at god and how to treat people. I had some sense that it was some Good stuff.

    Then i looked around.

    I knew that what made all this available to me was all the other people there. And that they were taught that it was all important by some people and those people were taught and on and on. But something was very very wrong.

    These people came every week to church, they said all the words on que, but they didn’t mean it. I knew they didn’t mean it because besides looking at the expressions on their face and hearing the tone of their voice, mostly i saw how they treated each other and talked the rest of the week. Then i was exposed to inside knowledge of the political goings on of the church. These people were greedy, egotistical, manipulative, etc. And some of them were the priests themselves.

    I was patient with all of this for a long time, but then i came across some books that were very old, much older than the new testament, and they said all the same good stuff, without the unlitmatums. All the debates the kids wonder about “what about the people in remote jungles who never heard of Jesus, do they go to hell?” you know the questions, they all started to make sense. Jesus is rolling in his grave! “They” built up a religion in his name that embodied everything that he warned against. In the words of a wise man, “Good grief!” (Took me a while to put all of it together coherently)

    Point is, the good stuff is the good stuff and fear is only necessary when there’s a bear in your yard or you’re too close to the edge of the roof. Like I said about Revelations, if there was a “good” intent (trying to warn people not to do bad things) it back fired by making people more afraid to do bad things and more suspicious and paranoid; and not emphasizing the importance of the GOOD core principals.

    I think the whole Revelations thing actually had to do with manipulation and the old Consolidation of Power game than it did “keeping the sheep from killing themselves and eachother.” A good way to live is to move towards the positive, a less good way is to move away from negative. The problem is actually one of physics, not of mental games. Lots we could talk about with this stuff, maybe we will.

  80. surfdude November 10, 2006 7:39 pm

    I too, Makia, was totally disappointed by organized religion. In my case, I was brought up Greek Orthodox – perfect Sunday School attendance - for 18 years. When I looked around the church – even at my own family – I saw hypocrisy.

    Many people struggle with this. I went to the extreme – thinking that there was no God and that only weak people needed a crutch like that. But when I was about to get married – I was looking for some verse from the Bible to throw in the ceremony, you know so that the relatives and Grandma would be proud. I got captivated. All those years of Sunday School, church and ceremonies, and I had no idea what this book said.

    All I am saying is that this book has truth –it is hard to understand – yes. And it is twisted by evil people to control others. All this is true. But that is what evil people do. But that does not mean that there is not great wisdom between it’s covers, and maybe we can learn more about the Creator directly from the source. Even more about ourselves.

    You know – I hate organized religion for the very reasons you express, and how it causes people to turn away from the Bible. But I encourage you to travel a solo journey by reading and meditating the Bible. I am glad I did. And I have a greater love for people – especially my wife and children. So it can’t be so bad…

    So what we see in politics is mirrored in the organized religions. Manipulation, control, hypocrisy, deception…

    I feel as though we are all sitting around the table as friends talking politics, religion, and even revolution. Pass the olives and the feta cheese, please….

  81. surfdude November 10, 2006 8:00 pm

    Makia - what you are saying is stated clearly in the Bible:

    1 John 4:18
    There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

    See. If people would just read it for themselves they would not be swayed by the fear mongers. So those who trust a church, or a preacher, but do not read the Bible for themselves - how are they to know?

  82. Makia November 10, 2006 8:35 pm

    Surfdude, I know that journey well.

    My point of advice for pure hearted people who enjoy the Bible and derive wisdom from it is to pass the wisdom along, but as a culture i think that the Bible needs to be de-emphasized. How bold i must be!

    I beg of you not to think that i mean that the Bible is worthless. But what i do ask one to consider is that a person seeking wisdom will FIND wisdom!

    In my search for truth i have found incredible wisdom in accounting, politics, economics, quantum physics, world religions, and movies. I find wisdom in bad movies, bad science, and bad politics. That doesn’t mean i would recommend a bad movie, or suggest that someone become a Hindi, or go to college to find wisdom.

    Perhaps one feels less connected to Hinduism than the Bible, so i will use that as my route.

    Study Hinduism, it contains much truth and wisdom, just like daytime soap operas and some bad movies; if you are searching for wisdom. Actually Hinduism, i think, is much more detailed about the construction of existence. But then again i’ve read into and derived some incredible things from soap operas and bad movies. . . . For instance, i have a hard time watching “camera based” entertainment anymore without looking into the aspects of the lives of the actors, the cameramen, the lighting people, the editors, and the places all those people get lunch every day while they’re working.

    Now, did i derive all that insight and depth from Bible? No. Do i derive insight and depth from Bible? Yes. That is why i say that consciousness comes first.

    Before science or religion, comes consciousness. Before entertainment or Bible, comes consciousness.

    Volition makes the world, the world does not make volition.

    Now the biggest mistake that one makes once they see this is to think that their own INDIVIDUAL consciousness is THE consciousness. It is not.

    There is much more going on in Universe, and for that matter the Earth, than you and i; but what you and i _choose_ is much more important than what the Bible _says_. If we choose to derive WISDOM from Bible, then that, i feel, is a good choice. But the Bible, or any other Holy Word, does not create wisdom.

    From this reasoning, i feel, it is also clear how so many VERY “poor” decisions come to be made based on “wisdom” from the Bible. And also how many VERY “poor” decisions are made based on “wisdom” from the Qu’ran. Back to my real point, it is in our best interest to apply the lessons of consciousnessm and figure out where the Bible fits into that. In many cases, good people simply need to BE ABLE TO de-emphasize the Bible. Wisdom is anywhere and everywhere if that is what you seek.

  83. surfdude November 10, 2006 8:53 pm

    I understand what you are saying, and I agree to some parts, and disagree to others. I can watch a cartoon and find a flash or two of wisdom. I also can find it throughout nature, and even at watercooler conversations. On that we agree.

    Here’s we we disagree. You seem very intelligent and thoughtful. I would feel better if everyone were so inclined. But to suggest that a madman, or a mentally deranged person can decide right and wrong or even comprehend wisdom is folly (and their are plenty of them out there). There must be an ultimate authority in which sets the standard. You should know this. Otherwise everyone has his or her own standard, which is chaos (and then we have wars). Maybe we don’t agree on the standard, and I respect that. But to say that each individual, over 5 billion of them, can set their own standard of wisdom and truth - you can not mean that. Right?

    My life experience and yours may be simular, or different. Collectively, all of us can learn from each other. But we can not all have different standards of wisdom and live in harmony.

  84. surfdude November 10, 2006 9:06 pm

    Case in point - and back to the topic. I am SURE that the PTB feel that they have wisdom and know what is best for us poor peasants. After all, they are scholars, and privileged. So why are they wrong? Because there is an ultimate authority that says so. Many posts above use the Bible that shines light on the evil that they engage in.

    There must be an authority above all of us. Otherwise, any one of us can dictate what is right and truth and impose it on the others. Truth and wisdom can not be subjective.

  85. the stranger November 10, 2006 10:08 pm

    Sapiens, that’s an interesting way to put it, the “placebo effect” on the body politic. How long will it last? Yeah, I was referring to Gary Webb (I should have put his first name – he deserved that). I think about him sometimes. There is a real struggle between good and evil right here on the terrestrial plain. One of many unsung hero’s I suppose.

  86. Makia November 10, 2006 10:12 pm

    Yes. But the Bible is not the ultimate authority. That is what i’m saying. Of course I am saying that right and wrong are not subjective, there IS an ultimate authority, and thank you for giving me the credit of realizing this.

    On today’s society, i beleive that that is the EXACT problem strangling AND distracting our populations (from many important things, including the workings of the PTB): a belief that we “really don’t know” what’s right and wrong so we might as well take what we can get while we can get it.

    The most important point in philosphy, ethics, politics, economics - and I can’t emphasize this enough - IS that there IS absolute right and wrong.


    A discussion of what is this absolute i will save for later, but i will say this:

    The mind is built on relativism, but we are MORE than our minds. We are not our mind, we are soul. This is certainly an essential aspect of true spirituality. We are not our spirit either, well, according to _my_ definitions. We are, according to my definitions, soul. (I stress this because i place great important on definition, which i feel is a primary function of consciousness).

    The mind is, by _nature_, relativistic; and so the mind CAN NOT DISTINGUISH absolute right. That is the center of the difficulty of explaining or talking about absolute right, because _language_ is inherently relativistic. I firmly beleive that you, surfdude, by your words, understand absolute right; but you seem to tie that understanding to Bible, while i tie it to consciousness.

    I’ll repeat myself and say that the biggest mistake a person makes when they realize this relationship is thinking that their own INDIVIDUAL consciousness is THE consciousness. That is the mistake that the PTB who try and manipulate us for their own gain (but _supposedly_ for our own benefit) make.

    I am not trying to discredit the idea that there is an absolute right and wrong, but to discredit that every part of the Bible embodies that understanding, or is accurate in its description. Some parts of the Bible contradict other parts, and not every part is as essentaial as others. This is true of all of life, not just the Bible. To be sure, “less divine” movies have the same characteristics.

    Let me say it this way; if it is appropriate to convey the ABSOLUTE LOVE of the universe to someone by talking about The Matrix movie, then a wise person uses that resource. If it appropriate to use Biblical reference, then use that. If it appropriate to use a story from The Tommyknockers, or Days of Our Lives, then use that. Love, fear, truth, and effectiveness for taht matter are the issues of life, not the Bible. That is what i say.

  87. Makia November 10, 2006 10:17 pm

    Sapiens, #75, and Stranger #85, i definately feel you both when it comes to your references to the placebo effect with the recent election and Gary Webb when it comes to Gates. God have mercy on their souls.

  88. Sam November 11, 2006 12:01 am

    Makia - you are enlightenening - I recommend these two books on christianity for the “soul” (not for organised religion) to anyone of you who may be interested - Out of the two - “The Mustard Seed” is outstanding.. Cheers


  89. Sapiens November 11, 2006 5:37 am
  90. surfdude November 11, 2006 7:13 am

    Makia - language is causing us some misunderstandings on this issue. All truth and wisdom comes from God. He is the authority. I just believe that the bible is God inspired. We can disagree on this. But if God is the creator, it is natural to see wisdom throughout the things of this world and the doings of man - because man was created by God - hence, we see some relections of His wisdom everywhere.

    it is not fruitful to argue whether or not the Bible was god inspired. One either beleives it or not. This is a matter of faith, not science. It is a very personal matter for each person.

    What I do know is that wisdom and truth can not have their origin in man, because then it is subjective - and that is dangerous.

  91. Dr Jane Karlsson November 11, 2006 7:23 am

    Makia and Zephyr, thanks for telling me PTB means Powers That Be. Actually I had already decided it meant Pass The Buck. Any comments?

    ronandreas, many thanks. I did Google Terror Storm and would like to see it, but can’t because I’m in a university library and can’t get the audio. I have seen one on what hit the Pentagon, and of course I’ve done more than enough reading to tell me 911 was an inside job.

    About oil. I’ve been reading some more. Does Gold really think carbon is transformed by anaerobic micro-organisms into oil and coal? The Russians say it comes from methane. The earth’s crust sinks, forming a basin, and the sinking increases the pressure so more methane condenses, so the crust sinks more, etc. That’s why you get oil reservoirs in basins.

    The Gold paper I read simply gave evidence for the abiotic origin of oil, and the micro-organisms were feeding on it, not producing it. The picture is complicated by Russian accusations that Gold plagiarised their work. Do you think it is possible that there were some things he read that he misinterpreted?

  92. Makia November 11, 2006 8:39 am

    Surfdude, we don’t disagree on anything that important. We both know that it is how we live our lives and who we give credit for wisdom, love, and creation (something far greater than us as individuals, greater than our race, and greater even than the great Earth).

    You can beleive that the entire Bible is the complete and uncontradicting word and wisdom of God, and that there is no other _truly_ relevant resource on the topic because of the nature of Bible’s uniqueness and divine origin. I do disagree with that assumption in many ways. BUT I do not think that it is useless or bad, and I have tried to make that clear.

    I guess my biggest problem tith the whole Bible thing is that so many bad conclusions (more importantly actions) have been drawn from it. And one can say that it is because that it has been misinterpreted, parts have been taken out of context, some parts have been over emphasized while de-emphasizing others. AND I AGREE WITH ALL OF THAT!

    So we agree on the most important parts of life, but its not because i agree with the Bible, although i have found much wisdom in it just as you have.

    As plain as i can put it, and of course taking into consideration my previous posts, is that the wisdom in the Bible agrees with the Absolute Creator, the Creator does not study the bible to find wisdom.

    Put another way, i enjoy conversing on the subtleties of the creator, spitiuality, and human purpose. I enjoy conversing about the instructions and lessons of the Absolute Love and Creator by whose power all life exists. I have no problem with using the Bible as a reference on these topics. But i do not think it is a relevant discussion to debate the uniqueness and sole authority of the Bible. In my opinion that beleif is a detriment, as is evidenced by all the stupid shit that has gone down in the name of “God” and the “unfallible Bible.” Yes, language is causing misunderstanding in this conversation, and that is exactly why i don’t feel that the ultimate authority should be derived solely from one book (or a collection of books written and assembled by men).

    I would hope that this conversation can evolve into one of “what exactly _is_ the ultimate authority” and what does it instruct is to do? Creating a Better World, and discussing good politics and economics i think are very relevant to that discussion.

    Thanks all, obviously i think this stuff is important and worth the discussion.

  93. ronandreas November 11, 2006 9:49 am

    Dr. Karlsson,
    Yes the methane comes first,and is subsequently transformed, this is why they are found together.Again this is the predominant theory in Russia, the world’s biggest producer of oil and gas.

  94. surfdude November 11, 2006 5:32 pm

    Wow! Thanks Makia - you boiled it down to the essence: What exactly _is_ the ultimate authority?
    The question does in fact cause us to then ask ‘what does that authority want me to do with my life?”. I have been thinking, meditating and ever trying to learn more about this for the better part of my adult life. This question is deep, and has a major impact on the way one lives his life - and how one views the world. Therefore it is most relevant to everything discussed in this forum.

    Thanks again - I really enjoy the discussion.

  95. surfdude November 11, 2006 8:02 pm

    Oh - by the way – you are right - I am not a priest. In fact - I don’t trust priests one bit. They are caught in a system where they are forced to toe the line and defend a corrupt system. Many of them love power – and having those who are seeking truth look to them as an authority makes them feel powerful. And power corrupts, and so the cycle continues… and truth suffers.

    Am I a holy roller, self righteous religeous man that we hear so much about? Far from it. I see myself pretty honestly, and know my many weaknesses and flaws. And if I ever forget my wife will lovingly remind me.

    I do have six children though. So in a sense I am a priest in my own house - as anyone is like it or not that is raising children - because we are responsible for their souls. But that is as far as it goes. I have no affiliation with organized religion or church - therefore I am FREE! Free to seek and learn truth. And to throw out dogmas and doctrines that imprison and deceive. I must tell you though I read the bible to my children regularly – and meditate on it personally.

    “The truth shall set you free”. I love that saying.

    My desire is to better understand truth – so that I can become more and more free of the powers of evil! I think we all are seeking truth, and it is a lifelong journey.

  96. Dr Jane Karlsson November 12, 2006 5:37 am

    ronandreas, #92: Excellent. We are agreed. But of course it means that the micro-organisms are eating oil and producing methane, not the other way round.

    The Russian mechanism for oil production from methane is a physical and not a biological process, and implies it happens only under conditions of extreme pressure and very slowly, would you agree?

    If that’s so, it means that the oil reservoirs that are re-filling are doing so because oil seeps into the reservoir from elsewhere through fault lines, and not because new oil is being produced.

    I suspect your antipathy to Peak Oil comes from all those articles that say the end of the world is coming. Mike Ruppert, for example, says it’s so bad we must seriously consider enforced population reduction. Maybe that’s what Bush had in mind in Iraq.

    In fact, I don’t see any way the earth is going to be rescued from the present unsustainable orgy of consumption, pollution, debt and wars EXCEPT through Peak Oil.

    Matthew Simmons says Saudi Arabia, which is the only country that has any spare capacity, might not actually have any at all. AND that the water injection is damaging the reservoirs, which means production could stop quite suddenly. Well, what else is going to make this insane stock market finally do the decent thing and crash?

    Michael has suggested it will be deflation and not hyperinflation that we’ll get. If he’s right, and I suspect he is, it means the US authorities will have to default on their debt, or at least some of it. Well, Russia did that and it’s still there.

    What do you think? What does everybody think? Michael?

  97. Rich November 12, 2006 7:04 am

    Dr, Jane (are you related to Dr. Phil?), just kidding.

    Typically the poorer nations default on their loans to the richer one. The nations with the rockets and bombs do things to engineer a way around the default, and that is the period of human history we are in currently.

    The US is the only global superpower and is essetially bankrupt. But how does a superpower rollover to its creditors whilst remaining a superpower and not destabilizing the entire world and the prevailing balance of power?

    I believe everything possible is being done to mask over this problem and the PTB are re-engineering the global infrastructure required for their own longevity. This agenda is called the NWO. The PTB are attempting to re-educate the global population to accept global government and probably a new monetary unit, and more corporate control over our lives I’m sure.

    This takes time, is unpredictable and messy, but if done correctly will mask over the need to have the US default, which would probably create Depression2 as the rest of the world is in a pretty symbiotic economic relationship with the consuming sheeple of America.

    Cheers Rich

  98. Makia November 12, 2006 7:45 am

    Dr. Jane, Rich, anyone, do you guys thing that population control might be the _primary_ motivator of the PTB? The money is just a fortuneate side-effect of putting the populations on as thight of a leash as they can so as to “do the right thing” and protect the planet?

  99. Makia November 12, 2006 7:47 am

    typo - “tight of a leash”

    And “money” being the earthy riches that they accumulate in the process of spearheading population control.

  100. zephyr November 12, 2006 8:41 am

    Makia, sadly I think it will come to that. Simply put, there are too many people for the planet to sustain now, imagine how bad it will become as the planet deteriorates. Survival, self-preservation will cause the PTB to do whatever they need to do to ensure their endgame. As I have mentioned before, read a book entitled Emerging Viruses by Leonard Horowitz. There is a great body of evidence that AIDS was probably created in a lab and tested/released in portions of the world population where they thought….Eh, who would care if this group starts dying ie: gays and parts of Africa. There is actual documentation that people within the Nixon era, including Henry Kissinger (there’s that name again…Satan’s got a seat reserved for him at Hell’s main table) were looking for a biological weapon to weaken the immune system of any enemy.

    I believe they might try a mass cleansing with an engineered bird flu, or something of that nature. What easier way…no one would suspect. Mass influenzas have killed millions over the centuries. Plus the puppet media has been playing their role in ripening the masses to be ready for just such an event.

    Will it come down to that? Who can really say. Go out tonight and rent 12 Monkeys with Bruce Willis and Brad Pitt (always loved that movie), that’s kinda what I envision. Remember, there are some sick MF’s out there, who believe it is their birthright to have dominion over the earth. When you consider all the subplots in the world right now and rein them all in, and then start putting the puzzle together…..well, it gives one pause.

    Get your house in order. Make sure your relationship with God is solid. Make sure to do the best possible with your loved ones. Treat everybody you meet with love and respect (very hard, I know). Take that trip you’ve dreamed of, because you might not have the chance later. Buy gold and silver. Have guns and ammo on hand. Have some food and water supplies squirrelled away. Then, just let go. Do what you can to enduce change, but realize most of this stuff is way beyond your control. Remember, as I’ve said, this is just a blip in eternity.

    I’ve enjoyed your posts Makia. Good luck with your wife. Your spouse should be your soulmate, She might not be “working or thinking behind your back”. We all get confused and doubtful. Communication, patience, love, understanding. These are paramount. You mention she questions her desire to live your dream. Makia, you’re partners….she needs to feel they are her dreams, too. Marriage is about constant compromise, out of respect and love.

    Anyway, best of luck, keep the posts coming. Hope my thoughts may have been helpful to you in some way. Peace.

  101. larry November 12, 2006 9:02 am

    rich…cogent response…that is what i feel government doing…planning for this nonfailure by restructuring all the made up rules…counting on sheeple…..resource depletion is now serious any way you slice it….the world is experiencing rotational peak carrying capacity issues on a local basis currently….when will it be obvious on a generalized global scale..prior to or just after the next world war?….peak oil is not unique …it is just an other finite resource being over hunted…remember the carrier pigeon..over hunted….remember the 1 billion bison in the US…over hunted….past peak experiences in nature appear sudden, to the uninformed…the collapses have been studied ad nauseum…..the lag time prior to the colapse is usually longer than most would believe…this leads to massive numbers of doubtors…it what it is…too many demands on finite resource pools…not rocket science

  102. Sapiens November 12, 2006 9:06 am

    I used to think the Amish were backwards and stupid for their lifestyle, now I know how wrong I was.

    There are laws in the Universe that dictate our physical living conditions, which we ignore at our own peril.

    Why must you buy low and sell high? Because you must make a profit to survive, if you don’t make a profit, you fail and go bankrupt. The same thing with life, you must eat more calories than you burn. Why? Because if you don’t you starve.

    The same with energy, we can’t burn more than what we or earth produces because if we do we become extinct.

    Those are simple fundamental principles which are true.

    My job is done here.

    Cheers and goodbye!


  103. ronandreas November 12, 2006 9:17 am

    Dr. Karlsson,
    “the micro-organisms are eating oil and producing methane”

    No, they transform carbon from the earth to methane which then becomes oil.

    “it means that the oil reservoirs that are re-filling are doing so because oil seeps into the reservoir from elsewhere through fault lines, and not because new oil is being produced.”

    Both, but more of the former.

    “I don’t see any way the earth is going to be rescued from the present unsustainable orgy of consumption, pollution, debt and wars EXCEPT through Peak Oil.”

    That, I guess is another disempowering aspect of the peak oil meme (don’t bother demanding curbs on consumption, there is an inherent limit to supply). No, we will have to be responsible and do something ourselves.”Peak oil” also serves to limit opposition to nuclear power and wars of aggression.

    ” Matthew Simmons says Saudi Arabia, which is the only country that has any spare capacity”

    Current spare capacity is irrelevant except to short term price movement. Simmon’s analysis doesn’t factor heavy oil, that’s like saying your fridge is empty because there’s nothing on the top shelf.

  104. Makia November 12, 2006 10:02 am

    First zeph, that “my dream” thing was extremely poor wording on my part. I know exactly what you’re saying. And i don’t think it was a slip. . . maybe just a slip of feeling helpless. My wife loves me, and i don’t mean to say she’s working behind my back, but i do know how difficult these things are for anybody to deal with. I’ve been strong-willed and independant thinking since i was, well, in this life at least as soon as i realized i could walk and talk. Ask my mom about the frustration. I know it was tough on her, and tough on both of us for that matter.

    Now that we have children and are married, well, i meant my vows and every time i’ve repeated them to her over the years. It is just very hard seeing how easily many in the Community give up on their vows because their egos never come to terms with the fact the vows are _meant_ to supercede the ego. A great focus of my life has been to help her feel secure. First secure in herself, and then secure that she made the right decision by taking those vows with me. I want to know that she wouldn’t have taken them if she didn’t beleive them - but i’ve seen a lot of doubt and the potential to crack under pressure. I want to be there for her, i am here for her, but if she doesn’t beleive that, or want that, there’s nothing i can do. My greatest fear has much more to do with the health, safety, and learning of my kids. I know that my own insecurity about “how much time is left” puts a great deal of pressure on my own mind and emotions. And in the end, i know that we all have different skills, weaknesses, and ways of dealing with challenges. I just have this fear that she won’t “be there” when it counts the most, for her or our kids. Sorry for venting, thanks for listening. Its tough to have instant reslove when it comes to things that are so personal.

    As far as the population control thing goes. It just seems to make a lot of sense what you are saying, zephyr; and these are the evidence and conclusions i’ve also come up with. It does seem to be more a matter of “when” than “if.” And as far as that goes, it doesn’t seem to matter if people are behind a conscientous population control program or if the Earth simply must use the mechansims it has to maintain its health, beyond the will of any man or group of men.

    I do beleive that there is a directed effort by some people with a great deal of resources, but it doesn’t seem to matter in the final analysis. I just hope that if something cataclysmic happens to our race, that the PTB’s lives aren’t spared by their machinations. What a bunch of goofballs.

    12 Monkies, yes. It only recently came to my attention that population control was on the minds of the PTB (Pass the Buck is a poignant insight, Dr. Jane). As I was considering it, the details of 12 Monkies started rolling through my head and it seems to me to be quite thoughtful projection. It seems that the search for a cure (the scientists and time-travel) could be interpreted as more of a continued farce to keep people busy. While the PTB continue being what they think they are destined to be.

    The agent’s speal to Neo in the first Matrix has also stood out to me at various times in my meditation. That humans are more like a virus than anything else. I’ve also heard good, powerful people compared to white blood cells in an organism. I know that my consciouness revolves around the safety of the planet, even more than my own safety or the safety of anyone else (except my children to be honest). For that matter, i could not support my children if i saw that they were willingly part of the “disease.” I’m not worried about that though. In my mind it is a huge step backwards between being ignorant and being _willfully_ ignorant. Choice being the catalyst between being harmless and harmful.

    And one last thing about gold and guns. . . Herein lies a great source of anxiety on my part. I’m working on it, but we are too poor for either. I know that this amplifies my anxiety about “how much time is left?”

    Who cares, though, i can’t let that anxiety really affect me, or my family, or my actions. And i don’t. I have a great deal of faith and foresight, that if i do my best things will work out just the way they are supposed to. This has been with me and confirmed in my life many many times. So i do have some anxiety about “not having enough” when i need it, but i’m not bothered. Y’know what really bothers me the most? And i’m not saying this is healthy either, but i just want whatever’s gonna heppen to shake the sheeple up to happen. My biggest fear is that they will be shaken, but not realize the true causes or truly good solutions.

    But as i’ve pointed out in my posts, it is far better to love the good than to fear the bad. At this point, my scale cannot tip in the other direction (so i guess its not a scale anymore). Fortuneately i’ve put in the “hard time” (the doubt and denial reffered to in earlier posts by others), and loved the creator enough that my eyes are permanently opened. I no longer fear death, now i just need to focus on life. Hopefully i can raise some good kids. Bless us all.

  105. larry November 12, 2006 10:46 am

    Sapiens…when i was a kid…all the black and white cowboy and indian shows portrayed the american indians reverence for nature as if they were simpltons…they lived with nature and did not fight to manipulate it as did the invading westerners…a true clash of culture and basis of thoughts and core beliefs….the Earth would probably be in much better health under the natives stewardship….sad,very sad…..us western minded types are so virulent…we seem to win in the short run,but fail to see the big picture and sow the seeds of our own destruction….plus,we have mechanized our ability to destroy in a general sense which compounds the effectivness of this virulent nature…OH BROTHER! i have no clue of how to help

  106. surfdude November 12, 2006 11:04 am

    If it comforts you, Makia, you have company.

    In my case, I have sacrificed and sold a nice 6Bdrm comfortable house in a great neighborhood to get out of debt three years ago. We have been renting an uncomfortable 3 Bdrm place (for 6 kids) in worse shape that places I used to rent at the shore with my buddies 20 years ago. It’s the only way I can squirl away whatever money I can. I can scense my wife also questions this as everything seems to be rolling along just fine. Friends all seem to be prospering. The media claims all is well. But I feel in my gut that the whole game is about to collapse and end in disaster.

    Sometimes I wish that everything would just collapse already. I am ashamed to say that I would feel some sort of satisfaction. I know this is wrong. I do not want anyone to suffer. And then I worry that if there is no collapse, and everything just rolls along fine, then maybe I am a fool for putting my family through this for the past three years.

    I drove by the house that I sold three years ago a few weeks ago by myself. I saw kids happily playing in the yard, I started crying uncontrollably. I don’t even remember the last time I cried. All of my pent up emotions just erupted. It wasn’t really the house, it’s the fact that maybe I am a fool after all. Why did I disrupt my family? Maybe I am just seeing everything negitive, and ruining the comfort of my family. But something inside me won’t let go. Its as though I learned too much, and can never go back. Besides, with what has happened to real estate, I could never afford that same house today.

    Does anyone else struggle with these complex emotions?

  107. larry November 12, 2006 11:39 am


  108. zephyr November 12, 2006 11:43 am

    Makia, I will have to do this in 2 parts as I’m meeting my wife to visit my mother at her nursing home. You make so many good points. First, I never meant to be presumptuous pertaining to your family life. Every situation is solely unique. I am fortunate, my wife is with me regarding a, for lack of a better word right now, “doomsday” scenario. New Orleans was sort of the last straw for her last year. And she has read many of the same things I have.

    We are 2 equally strong-willed independant stubborn people. I always have been too, as I kind of grew up alone most of my young, formative years. So, I learned to be very self-reliant.

    Don’t despair on not having the funds to do what I might mention. Many people I read speak of paying off your mortgage and owning property outright. Well, that’s not possible for me. I was really focussing on it for awhile, driving myself a liitle crazy. But it’s beyond my control right now. And I suppose that’s where faith comes in. If everything was A-OK, there really would be no need for faith, would there? So, I’m moving past that for now and dealing with what is within my realm of affecting.

    I love your analogy of people like us being the white blood cells of humanity…..very cool.

    Lastly for now, yeah, I also wish when all this does come to pass, the sheeple (I like the term Lumpin) will finally realize the truth. Some will, some won’t…..truthfully how much does it really matter? Some of it is just ego on my part. When I have conversations with people on such topics and they blow me off, I tell them to just remember having this conversation.

    Gotta go for now. Love this post…..it has enabled so many of us “strangers” to connect and realize we’re not alone. Peace!!!

  109. zephyr November 12, 2006 1:34 pm

    Surfdude, in a word, Yes. I’m a freelance cameraman, so every time I walk away at the end of a job, I wonder why did I try so hard to espouse my views again. Why do I try so hard to convince people. Do I walk away with most people thinking poor ol’ Jeff is losin’ his mind?

    Am I going to regret some of my financial moves designed for safety? You’re right, everything seems to be rolling along smoothly. Yet, the fundamentals scream otherwise. And I believe it was Chris Laird at PrudentSquirrel who said that historically cataclysmic events usually happen very suddenly when everything seems fine.

    Is it wrong to take satisfaction if ultimately you are right? Maybe. But it’s human nature and I would feel exactly the same.

    So rest a little easier, you’re not alone.

  110. zephyr November 12, 2006 1:42 pm

    Surfdude, actually, you’re braver than I am. I’ve thought of selling the house before the bottom drops out, but I just love my home to much. I hope I don’t come to regret that. But then again, no one knows exactly how all this will play out.

  111. muleskinner November 12, 2006 3:41 pm

    If I lived in the White House, I’d be paranoid. Al Qiada wants to bomb the place. I feel safer in my own home. There’s some risk in the business of politics. Now, poor George Bush might be having some trouble sleeping at night. He might be sleeping in the woods with a couple of dummy fires burning while he slips into the bushes to get some freaking rest for a change.

    It’s no picnic for George, no cakewalk these days. Why, Don Rumsfeld cuts and runs too. No roses, it’s that bad.

    Thing is: President Bush has to wear a pair of pants too. He would look rather foolish if he didn’t wear any clothes. Every day, he has to don a pair of dungarees at least. People would think he off his rocker if he didn’t wear clothes.

    Those politicians aren’t any different than anybody else in this world.

    They need to be reminded of how they came to be; of where they have their roots.

    Let their consciences be their guides, stuff like that.

  112. Rich November 12, 2006 4:28 pm

    I don’t, and never will, feel sorry for politicians, what a way to spend a life! Sucking off the boob of society, taxing, axing, maxing (spending), etc. It’s a game for the wicked, that’s why decent people aren’t to be found in politics.

    If you want to feel sorry for George then go ahead.

    I feel sorry for the victims of his policies, there are tens of millions of them around the world.

    Cheers Rich

  113. Makia November 12, 2006 4:28 pm

    Well I just think that all of these posts are great from some intelligent and caring people. It would be hard to make the case that any of us are overly strong-willed people or doomsday lovers. Secret conspiracy theories aside, even the evidence we can see shows some extremely poor fundamentals.

    I’ve enjoyed economics and finance for a while, but until recently i was on the side that feels that even though there’s a good deal of manipulation that goes on among big players and governments, that they would basically be able to keep up that manipulation indefinately. . . or until technology really did save us.

    The problem with the financial manipulations, though, appears to create a situation where more and more people make relatively less and less money. I’ve wondered how long that could continue, and about the consequences.

    The problem with technology is that no technology is only a tiny (very tiny) fraction of it is really created to help people. Technology, as it is almost always billed, makes the people’s lives ([ahem], who can afford it) better and easier. But people just keep working more and more (generally becoming more and more in debt, thus projecting their condition into perpetuity). And the “holy grail”, medical technology and pharaceuticals, is a cruel hoax.

    I’ve felt for a long time that people should really look at technology and money closley in their lives. I quit college with a very good QPA learning about something that i always enjoyed (computers), for a few reasons, but certainly because i chose to de-emphasize money and technology in my life. I spent years learning developing my concepts of practical spirtuality and survival skills. Now i can honestly say that my personality is such that i would’ve just moved out into the woods, but i had a feeling of responsibility to people - people i would never talk to if i lived in the woods. I also feel a certain draw, responsibility, and great enjoyment from being a good father.

    Through the observation and study of good spiritual principals, it also really seems to me that besides the weak fundamentals that can be observed in our economic system, the there is also systemic distortion of good fundamentals within spirituality and family in “modern” cultures. And besides all that, coming back to “modern” medicine, demand for that would drop 80% if people just took responsibility for themselves and what they eat and how they exercise. There are a lot of ways to look at how all of these are related, but the bottom line is that the observable fundamentals of our society are weak and weakening. As sapiens write in #10:

    “Consequences are not hard to predict when you know the cause and effect of actions that lead to those consequences.”

    In honor of efficiency, i think that i have actually found the lynchpin of all the weakness: pride and greed. Well its a slight oversimplification ’cause fear fits in there, too.

    Its the ego. By my definition, ego is the patterns that we developed when we were young that our ego thinks (and sometimes in fact) keep us fed and safe. When we get a little older our ego learns patterns that keep us safe emotionally in the presence of others and their egos. This is all a natural development. But the ego just does what it does, it doesn’t think though it does tap into the mind as a resource. It basically finds a certain pattern of behavior that gets what it is after, and then without adjustment (by harsh experience or conscious choice) it just keeps doing the same thing to get the same reward. Very often it continues its pattern LONG after the pattern stops working (like decades). A person who doesn’t know any better, by default, identifies with the ego, thereby giving an attitude of “this is the way i am,” and loses an enormous amount of choice in day-to-day life, like how to act in certain situations.

    The problem, i feel, is that once we reach a certain age, i.e., adulthood, we need to be able to separate ourselves from our ego. Not destroy our ego, that would be impossible as far as i can tell, but basically realize that we are not our ego and our responsibility is to our community, not ourselves. Do you see the transition of which i speak?

    These facts of life aren’t expressed hardly anywhere in our society, and when they are they are usually distorted. That is why i liken most adults, no matter how much experience or power they yeild (usually not very much) as being like children who think they are grown up because they have adult responsibilities.

    So surfdude, zephyr, larry, and any of us who feel a need to express our opinions and wonder if we are crazy for making choices basd on them; i think that as long as the previous is considered [insert article on meditation], it is certainly not unreasonable to see that the fundamentals of our society are weak, and it is should be considered reasonable to question the results. If one’s motivation is to spread awareness, and not just to “be right” or be a prophet then it seems to me that is an act of social responsibility and not ego fulfillment. It might be, though, so in my opinion we’ve got to watch it.

    I actually liken the ego to the Satan of common lore. And the analogy can be applied: “The ego’s greatest trick was convincing you it doesn’t exist.” From ego comes pride, greed, and even most, if not all fear if you think about it. My last point about ego is that it is a neccessary survival mechanism for children, of which all of us were, but when it isn’t addressed in the transition into adulthood, it can cause HUGE problems for an individual and all those around them. It is much easier to deal with these things effects when this wisdom is common knowledge; since it’s not, our society is a shell.

    Or maybe i’m wrong.

  114. Makia November 12, 2006 4:35 pm

    Not long ago i agreed with muleskinner #111, out of a sense of compassion. I still have compassion, but i’ve started to question these guys conscious innocence. We all have to live our lives and learn from the consequences of our actions. Those guys seem to have flashing signs telling them how to set things straight in front of their face for years, but they dont do anything because of fear, pride, and greed.

  115. surfdude November 12, 2006 5:11 pm

    Zephyr - brave? I don’t know. Right now I feel more like a fool. I paid three years of rent in a piece of junk while the house I sold appreciated by another 30%. I fight hard to control the anxiety that this brings. It keeps me from sleeping well. Someone on this post said that we must live with the choices that we make. Right now, I can tell you that the choice to get debt free has stung me well. Maybe one day the pain will subside.

    You love your home - that means a lot. You probably are building great memories there and feel proud. I feel horrible. That is the cost of following my convictions… at least for now.

    I really don’t wish for a collapse. I just can not see how it won’t come with the debt bomb that has been built. So I wait… and wait… not to take advantage but rather to survive. Some of my “friends” have suggested that maybe I am calling for a collapse because I just can’t cut it. Others have been more pointed and asked me when I would “wake up”. That just plain hurts.

  116. zephyr November 12, 2006 5:46 pm

    Then they aren’t really “friends” and therefore I wouldn’t put much stock in what they are saying. Trust your gut, especially if the feeling is that strong. Remember, these things are impossible to time. The PTB can keep the party going for awhile because it’s their party. Eventually, it will get out of control. Again, referencing Chris Laird of PrudentSquirrel, this whole thing is like a Mexican standoff. As long as no one fires, the standoff continues. But somewhere along the line, someone’s itchy trigger finger will spasm. When that happens, there will be a mad rush to the doors to salvage whatever one can. Fear is a great motivator, and again, history tells us that cataclysmic events usually happen suddenly and without warning.

    It’s very difficult to be a contrarian. What’s the old saying about truth going through 3 stages. First it is is ridiculed, then it is vehemently denied. Lastly, it is accepted as self-evident. Most people don’t want to acknowledge the truth because to accept the truth would be to have adjust one’s whole belief system from the base. That’s a scary thing. Much easier to stick one’s head in the sand and hope for the best. Hang in there!!!!!

  117. Makia November 12, 2006 5:56 pm

    Keep following through with integrity. Be willing to learn and adapt, but follow good fundamentals always. Not only will you prosper, but you will teach your children in the most important way, through example. From what i can tell, surfdude, you have done very well. Some of my questions i answer by looking at things in terms hundreds of years; i.e. “for the next seven generations.”

    Life is a tapestry and exach of us are a thread. We can’t see the pattern we are a part of, and we can’t see how our actions affect the entire tapestry. We can just be the best thread we can be.

  118. Makia November 12, 2006 5:58 pm

    Thanks Michael.

  119. Gemstocks November 12, 2006 6:17 pm

    Liberty Silver Dollars not legal in North Carolina.


    But I live in Chico, CA — I don’t even think anybody here takes them.


  120. surfdude November 12, 2006 6:39 pm

    You guys - and this whole forum - help more than you can possible know. Thanks all. Let’s dig in and fight for another day!

  121. Darren November 12, 2006 7:39 pm

    In a time of high tech & conformity an elected loud mouth who is not a man of valid ideas is dangerous.

    The man largely responsible for estabilishing the education policy of the American school system was John Dewey, best known as the father of progresive education. The goal of education, according to Dewey, was not to teach children to conceptualize, or think,& to use theoretical knowledge, such being an “unnatural burden,” but to teach conformity. Like the intellectual architects of the Nazi takeover, Dewey understood that when you destroy a persons capacity to think & judge independently, the inevitable result - of course; - is that he becomes dependent, & will passively conform to any Fuhrer, brazingly loud enough to get his attention. In effect the result is, “Who am I to think or judge? If its good enough for the Furher, its good enough for me.

    When someone asks, “Who am I to judge?” you really have to wonder. Your “self” your “I” is your mind, i.e., your concepts. ideas, believes - in short, your philosophy - which determines the extent of your ability to think & judge. When a person has relinquished his judgement, deferring that responsibility to others, he has, in effect, sacrificed his self, & ends up literally “selfless,” suffering an idenity crises.

    WE are living in a high tech world & few understand modern technology for few are responsble for it. So many think they are not smart enough to think & judge because they dont understand this technology so they go along with the crowd. The power of an individuals mind is in direct porportion to the number of concepts he understands & thier exact meaning. Today most specialize & understand few concepts for modern tech seams to allow for this. The less independent thinkers from the result of the above can lead to more individuals that will herd in such things as a stock market mania. Even worst yet a loud mouth who could lead a country into world war 3. I think being patriotic is dangerous if one thinks those in ones country can do only good because ones country is the greatest.

    I perfure to use price pattern of the dow to tell
    me where the economy is headed.

    The fundamental fact that suicide is the number cause of death among teens; that a quarter of all hospitalizations are in psychiatiac wards; & that both the politions & populace togeather watch helplessly as American culture - once ” the best & brightest hope of mankind” continues to disintergrate spells what for the economy.

  122. Darren November 12, 2006 7:53 pm

    I read some posts here concerning the bible. I think even above the bible logic should be used as the court of final appeal of what is true. It is always foolish to memorize anything that those around say is true & repeat it to others because you think it is true if you no understand.

    I must admite I have played the fool & most of the time few have noticed.

  123. surfdude November 12, 2006 8:06 pm

    The recent posts relating to the Bible were meant to sharpen the mind and cause one to think, not memorize text and repeat. Too many people use the bible to control others in that way. If you read it and meditate on it, it causes you to think. If you follow others who tell you what it says, you are a follower and sure to fall into a pit. Big difference.

  124. larry November 12, 2006 9:26 pm

    makia…you are no average guy….you are able to express complex ideas like a master….bah,,,and an excellent typer..

  125. larry November 12, 2006 9:32 pm

    makia…exactly….george bush and his cronies are tthose bad boys you discuss…bloated hollow illusions….i get so extremely angry that these morons run for power and then we elect them…

  126. larry November 12, 2006 9:42 pm

    surfdude…i do not know where you live…but if the home prices have gone up 30% in fast order…well,hang in, they will retreat….www.realtytrac.com and plenty of reading on how to buy forclosures…i think in a year or two you will play catch up to that momentary choice to sell… a life of many more moments is for you,indeed…do not lament…you will improve your situation more than you think….all these other people benefited from money flowing into housing…yyou will benefit from that unmerited unsound runup…prepare now…the library,bookstore and internet can explain how you gather info to bid on abondoned/repo/reo homes…hang-in

  127. zephyr November 12, 2006 9:49 pm

    Larry, how’s the video coming?

  128. zephyr November 12, 2006 9:58 pm

    for those that struggle with doubt, read the following to reinforce your beliefs:


    not exactly cheery stuff, but then again, that’s been are focus all along. ‘Night all!!

  129. Darren November 12, 2006 9:58 pm

    Apologies to all if my post 122 offended anyone.

    I enjoyed reading every post that was posted here for the reflective thought. Surfdude I totaly agree with your post 123 & appriciate your other posts the bible can cause some great thinking for some. Each book that has been printed can not be suited for everyone i.e., one would not read a book on calculus before understanding addition & subtraction. The same concept applies to everything one does including investing i.e., the method an individual uses for investing must fit the idenity & nature of that individual & of course be based on a valid theory (there can only be one valid theory or truth to anything for a thing is what it is & cannot be something differnt @ the same time & in the same respect.) For the idenity of an entity must act in accordance with its nature. Man is not subnatural or supernatural but has a clear cut idenity & nature & must act in accordance with. Of course an individual nature changes to a certain degree by such things as replacing invalid theories with valid theories.

  130. larry November 12, 2006 10:01 pm

    zephyr..the documentary of GSCT has been demoted to a corporate video…they need the dvd to distibute to clients and politicians to help adoption of the technologies they are promoting…an objective documentary of the issues of peak oil and global climate changes are down the line…they are public company and management could nor rationalize that cost to share holders…i disagree naturally…the documentary would have been a major decisive cou for the company,in my opinion…they may pick up the cost in the future…i still document the results of the killing machine that is modern allopathic medicine…that is my horror venue i guess,sadly….some one must document it or if we survive no one would believe the government and lawyers allowed that to be used on humans….crimes against humanity on a massive legal sanctioned and deplorable scale…but hey,its’ the system and t makes a LOT of dough even if the patients dont’ fell so well…no,they dont feel so well…not well at all…not at all

  131. Makia November 13, 2006 3:47 am

    not at all

  132. Makia November 13, 2006 4:38 am

    Larry, i appreciate the compliment, thanks.

    Darren, your #121 makes an excellent point, a few of them actually, about discernment and the structure and design of modern education. Discernment is no joke. I beleive it applies very well to pulling useful things from the Bible, too.

    Zephyr, i’m gonna read that article as soon as i get a chance.

    Unfortuneately for us humans, it almost always comforts us to hear someone else agree with us. That is why being able to distinguish ego and being able to discern effectively is Vitally important.

    Nonetheless, i do feel that we are on the right track, and i feel that at least i have come across you guys at an important time for me to do so. The rare occasion that i have found others who have noticed the same things as i and have drawn the same conclusions - i can’t understate the comfort. Yes, my ego is alive and well. How it affects my actions is what i pay closest attention to.

    You all have been a great service to my mind, my spirit, and my emotions. I am not as worked up as i was a few weeks ago (even a few days ago). I have a renewed sense of “what will be will be,” which i greatly needed to take some edge off. Best to you all.

  133. Dr Jane Karlsson November 13, 2006 7:45 am

    Wow. This thread is incredible. But Sapiens is leaving us, and we’ve already lost Kastor and bp. Don’t go, Sapiens.

    ronandreas, yes I see now what you mean. Methane produced from rotting vegetation in marshes, for instance? But that wouldn’t apply to oil produced very deep down. What is the source of carbon for that?

    Rich, interested to hear you don’t think the US will default. In that case, China will just go on buying Treasuries, and US consumers will just go on buying Chinese goods, for ever and ever. Isn’t default of some kind the only way out of this? (BTW, who is Dr Phil?)

    Makia (and zephyr and larry): yes, there are many rumours that the PTB want really serious depopulation as part of the NWO. And horrifyingly, there are many scientists (I know one) who think along these lines too. They don’t realise that the earth can easily support the people it has if the soil is rejuvenated and detoxified so it can grow all we need. And this is possible, you will be interested to hear. Look up ‘rock dust grows extra-big vegetables’, it’s all a question of re-mineralization, and it works spectacularly well.

    And Makia, yes medical technology and pharmaceuticals are indeed a ‘cruel hoax’. But this can be fixed too. I am working right now with a senior professor who’s head of a big Alzheimer’s group, and some new evidence has come to light showing pretty clearly that Alzheimer’s is largely a disease of copper deficiency. He is absolutely stunned. I’m not, I’ve known about this for years, but without this new evidence it was very difficult for people to believe me. The bottom line is, don’t eat refined carbohydrate, eat whole grain products, they contain copper.

    You see, cows shouldn’t eat grain, they should eat grass, and people shouldn’t eat cows, they should eat grain. I want to ask all of you: if you and your families stopped eating cows and ate wholemeal bread and brown rice instead, would that make your lives really awful?

  134. zephyr November 13, 2006 8:38 am

    Dr. Jane, as always thanks for the good info. Consider yourself lucky as to not knowing who Dr. Phil is. He’s is some hack given credibility when resident guru Oprah Winfrey started extolling his virtues. He has a TV show where his job is pointing out the obvious to idiots. That may sound harsh but I have never heard him say anything that the average person with a wee bit of common sense wouldn’t have known. Isn’t the world a wonderful place? I guess if you can find your niche selling snake oil off the back of a wagon, then good for you.

    Again, your knowledge of what’s healthy is greatly appreciated and always welcome….never go away!!

  135. Makia November 13, 2006 9:54 am

    Yes, thanks Dr. Jane. We should talk about nutrition and modern medicine vs. common sense ancient practices some more.

    Actually, i kindof like Dr. Phil. I mean, i feel like, yeah, that stuff should be common knowledge; or like, you should be able to go to someone in the neighborhood to tell you that stuff. On the other hand, if Dr. Phil doesn’t do it, who will? I don’t agree with him on everything, and i certainly think there’s a better place t work out family and personal garbage than on nat’l tv, but i do think that he does share a brand of practical relationship and family advice that’s better than one gets anywhere else in the mass media. He’s also a Texan, so i’d think his delivery is probably quite unpalatable to some (including myself). Its an interesting development in pop-culture. Not completely useless, but yes, ridiculous when all is considered. LOL.

  136. zephyr November 13, 2006 2:45 pm

    You know, Makia, my massage therapist says the same thing about Ol’ Phil. She says there’s not alot of common sense floating around, so Dr. Phil is really helpful for folks like that. I guess so. I still think he’s a redneck who got extremely lucky. Maybe it’s just my own ignorance showing….or maybe I’m just envious of someone who hits it big spewing things that I could just as easily say…but I don’t have a DR. in front of my name. So I toil away, in an industry that’s highly competitive and backstabbing and cuttthroat and godless, with a bad back that only gets worse. And I hand over a significant portion of my income to things that won’t even exist in a few years….so that money I worked hard for is essentually just pissed away. And I watch others cheat the system, lying about ailments and conditions. And I play it honest, and watch my rates go up to compensate for the deadbeats.

    So, no, I don’t like Dr Phil. People are taking a advice from a overweight, balding middle-aged man with a sports car (there’s a cliche right there). Yeah, that’s the guy I want giving me advice. Another example of our society taking a dive into the crapper.

  137. Makia November 13, 2006 3:05 pm


    . . . .



  138. Cree November 13, 2006 6:39 pm

    Well as the gentleman who worked for the British Foreign Service (during the cold war)said,”we destroyed one great evil communism,now we have to destroy the other great evil capitalism”,for one create’s as much poverty and destroys the will of the people as the other.
    Few will understand what he was speaking of,many will not.!!!

  139. Makia November 14, 2006 5:36 am

    Sad but true.

  140. bp November 14, 2006 6:46 am

    food for thought from Hullabaloo-
    Squeeze Play

    by poputonian

    Thinking a little more about the politics of economics, I’m reminded again of historian David Hackett Fischer’s book The Great Wave: Price Revolutions and the Rhythm of History, in which he noted a 16th century period when rising prices and economic inequality took a heavy toll on society. The book was published in 1996, before everything changed. Doesn’t this description sound familiar?

    These many responses to rising prices — social, demographic, economic, monetary, fiscal — interacted in combinations of increasing power. For example, the price-revolution caused falling real wages and rising returns to capital, which caused the growth of inequality, which increased the political power of the rich, which led to regressive taxation, which reduced government revenues, which encouraged currency debasements, which drove prices higher.

    I understand that we aren’t in a period of rampant inflation, but we might be soon. At the same time, we have seen the increased political power of the rich, a move toward more regressive taxation, and reduced government revenues.

    Weep as you read Fischer’s fascinating conclusion, and notice the inescapable parallels to what we see today, particulalry about aggregate demand and the cost of fuel [all emphasis mine]:

    This inquiry began with a problem of historical description about price movements in the modern world. Its primary purpose was to describe the main lines of change through the past eight hundred years. The central finding may be summarized in a sentence. We found evidence of four price-revolutions since the twelfth century: four very long waves of rising prices, punctuated by long periods of comparative price-equilibrium. This is not a cyclical pattern. Price revolutions have no fixed and regular periodicity. Some were as short as eighty years; others as long as 180 years. They differed in duration, velocity, magnitude, and momentum.

    At the same time, these long movements shared several properties in common. All had a common wave-structure, and started in much the same way. The first stage was one of silent beginnings and slow advances. Prices rose slowly in a period of prolonged prosperity. Magnitudes of increase remained within the range of previous fluctuations. At first the long wave appeared to be merely another short-run event. Only later did it emerge as a new secular tendency.

    The novelty of the new trend consisted not only in the fact of inflation but also in its form. The pattern of price-relatives was specially revealing. Food and fuel led the upward movement. Manufactured goods and services lagged behind. These patterns indicated that the prime mover was excess aggregate demand, generated by an acceleration of population growth, or by rising living standards, or both.

    These trends were the product of individual choices. Men and women deliberately chose to marry early. They freely decided to have more children, because material conditions were improving and the world seemed a better place to raise a family. People demanded and at first received a higher standard of living, because there was an expanding market for their labor. The first stage of every price-revolution was marked by material progress, cultural confidence, and optimism for the future.

    The second stage was very different. It began when prices broke through the boundaries of the previous equilibrium. This tended to happen when other events intervened–commonly wars of ambition that arose from the hubris of the preceding period. Examples included the rivalry between emperors and popes in the thirteenth century; the state-building conflicts of the late fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries; the dynastic and imperial struggles of the mid-eighteenth century; and the world wars of the twentieth century. These events sent prices surging up and down again, in a pattern that was both a symptom and a cause of instability. The consequences included political disorder, social disruption, and a growing mood of cultural anxiety.

    The third stage began when people discovered the fact of price- inflation as a long-term trend, and began to think of it as an inexorable condition. They responded to this discovery by making choices that drove prices still higher. Governments and individuals expanded the supply of money and increased the velocity of its circulation. In each successive wave, price-inflation became more elaborately institutionalized.

    A fourth stage began as this new institutionalized inflation took hold. Prices went higher, and became highly unstable. They began to surge and decline in movements of increasing volatility. Severe price shocks were felt in commodity movements. The money supply was alternately expanded and contracted. Financial markets became unstable. Government spending grew faster than revenue, and public debt increased at a rapid rate. In every price-revolution, the strongest nation-states suffered severely from fiscal stresses: Spain in the sixteenth century, France in the eighteenth century , and the United States in the twentieth century.

    Other imbalances were even more dangerous. Wages, which had at first kept up with prices, now lagged behind. Returns to labor declined while returns to land and capital increased. The rich grew richer. People of middling estates lost ground. The poor suffered terribly. Inequalities of wealth and income increased. So also did hunger, homelessness, crime, violence, drink, drugs, and family disruption.

    These material events had cultural consequences. In literature and the arts, the penultimate stage of every price-revolution was an era of dark visions and restless dreams. This was a time of lost faith in institutions. It was also a period of desperate search for spiritual values. Sects and cults, often very angry and irrational, multiplied rapidly. Intellectuals turned furiously against their environing societies. Young people, uncertain of both the future and the past, gave way to alienation and cultural anomie.

    Finally, the great wave crested and broke with shattering force, in a cultural crisis that included demographic contraction, economic collapse, political revolution, international war and social violence. These events relieved the pressures that had set the price-revolution in motion. The first result was a rapid fall of prices, rents and interest. This short but very sharp deflation was followed by an era of equilibrium that persisted for seventy or eighty years. Long-term inflation ceased. Prices stabilized, then declined further, and stabilized once more. Real wages began to rise, but returns to capital and land fell.

    The recovery of equilibrium had important social consequences. At first, inequalities continued to grow, as a lag effect of the preceding price revolution. But as the new dynamics took hold, inequality began to diminish. Times were better for laborers, artisans, and ordinary people. Landowners were hard pressed, but economic conditions improved for most people. Families grew stronger. Crime rates fell. Consumption of drugs and drink diminished. Foreign wars became less frequent and less violent, but internal wars of unification became more common and more successful.

    Each period of equilibrium had a distinct cultural character. All were marked in their later stages by the emergence of ideas of order and harmony such as appeared in the Renaissance of the twelfth century, the Italian Renaissance of the quattrocento, the Enlightenment of the early eighteenth century, and the Victorian era.

    After many years of equilibrium and comparative peace, population began to grow more rapidly. Standards of living improved. Prices, rents and interest started to rise again. As aggregate demand mounted, a new wave began. The next price-revolution was not precisely the same, but it was similar in many ways. As Mark Twain observed, history does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.

    with a rejection from Krugman - http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19970701fareviewessay3790/paul-krugman/seeking-the-rule-of-the-waves.html

    personally I think Krugman is whistling past the graveyard. We all sense the water being drawn out to sea before the tsunami hits. All of the problems we see like peak oil and bubbles are but symptoms of the coming collapse.

  141. Dr Jane Karlsson November 14, 2006 9:16 am

    bp, wonderful to have you back. Fischer is brilliant. Krugman is uncharacteristically silly.

  142. Makia November 14, 2006 12:20 pm

    Thanks bp.

  143. kevin November 14, 2006 1:35 pm

    very good, I liked it :)

    - Kevin

  144. surfdude November 14, 2006 2:23 pm

    me too.

  145. Makia November 14, 2006 2:54 pm

    Surfdude, if you’d like, feel free to e-mail me. patricklaverty@lycos.com. And anyone else here for that matter who cares. It seems we’ve all got similar drives. It’s been helpful, and it may prove to be more-so down the road. Who knows?

  146. Darren November 14, 2006 5:21 pm


    I was reading some of your posts & my perception is you sold to get out of debt & now same house has appriaciated 30%.

    I was reading a sample market letter @ best mind inc by Doug Wakefield. Warren Buffet in 1973 was down 23% & by 1974 was down 50%. Think about it if you were going to invest money would you give it to a guy that had lost that much money in such a short time? I know I surely wouldnt have. Yet by 1986 Berkshire was up 167 times. Another guy he talks about kept trying to make money short the Nasdaq in 1996 if memory serves right 4 years to earily but in the end he did come out ahead. These great investors were able to see long term, short term before the major turn they would have looked like idiots & it would have taken great courage to have gone against the herd.

    When one has the courage to accept the truth as thier friend @ one of the hardest times as in a housing bouble & take appropriate action such as living with in there means. I have the utmost respect for. Think about it many individuals have purchased homes with no money down & just pay interest. Thats as crazy as allowing individuals to purchase stocks on margin with a zero margin requirement just pay the interest on the money that is lent. If you couldnt afford the interest payment or stock prices dropped you would just walk away & give the bank your stocks & you lost nothing.

  147. bp November 14, 2006 5:38 pm

    makia, I copied your email address to my address book - I figure we might all be on the road sometime in the future, driven by destiny - might need an underground railroad stop :-)

  148. Makia November 14, 2006 5:47 pm


  149. Darren November 14, 2006 6:17 pm

    Makia & all

    You made me wonder concerning the importance of the Mayan date of Dec 2012. The reason being the August high in 1987 came verry close to the harmonic convergence based on Mayan calander. The day the high occurred in 1987 was when 5 heavenly bodies if memory serves right were with in 2.5 degrees of arc. This is the date the Mayans were most likely looking to for Harmonic Convergence. Based on this information Arch Crawford called the crash.

    Does anyone have any thoughts concerning this date ? The K wave should bottom somewhere around then give or take a few years. For every action there is an opposite & equal reaction i.e., light destroys darkness. Much of the material world as we know it will be gone so if one cannot turn to the material they will turn maybe to the spiritual. Perhapes like the darkages when men turned away from reason ( judging by information provided by the senses ) to faith ( the blind acceptance of ideas without any sensory evadence) Away from the laws of logic to the extent the survival of man was @ risk.

  150. Makia November 15, 2006 6:25 am

    I like your thinking on this Darren. Interesting insights. I thnk it was zephyr earlier in the thread that said something like, “maybe it was a few thousand years ago and some guys were just like ‘yeah, 5000 years sounds long enough.’” If it were only that simple. Actually every star studying culture throughout every time and place on the planet recognized this day as having importance.

    To study it in depth requires a lot of astonomy, and placing value on planetary and stellar alignments is a stretch for some people. Nonetheless, the amount of stellar alignments, including the Earth completing its “wobble” on its axis (which occurs every 26,000 yrs.), an alignment withe the equator of the sun, earth, venus, and the galactic equator, and the peak of a sunspot cycle, all provide for a fascinating number of “coincidences” that were anticipated with astonishing accuracy at least over 6,000 years ago, by multiple cultures.

    To be honest, i haven’t looked into this all that much. As i posted previously, i beleive in the importance of choice above prophecy and destiny. However i beleive that there is a strong case to be made that both exist.

    Quantum physics is a modern feild which encourages us to see beyond “the clockwork universe.” Those scientist place the great importance on probability. Myself, i beleive that the more important influence is choice. By that same token, one could _choose_ to succumb to pure probability, i.e. “chance” and “luck.” And on another level, there certainly is a certain degree of clockwork to the whole thing.

  151. Kolb November 15, 2006 2:19 pm

    Is this the same cornhusker who recommended AMEN above?

    STRONG SELL! (Not rated) 14-Nov-06 11:01 am

    I just read the 10Q from 3rd Quarter.

    Unless I’m reading it wrong (10Q), it appears that W-Power lost a LARGE customer, resulting in a decrease of roughly 33% in revenue from last quarter. It also appears that had Amen Properties not sold their real estate holdings, they would have LOST money in the 3rd quarter!

    Please, someone read the 10Q and correct me if I’m wrong, but from where I’m standing, this is a $3 stock, at best!


    Sentiment : Strong Sell
    Rate it:


  152. bp November 15, 2006 4:03 pm

    ouch, good catch Kolb #151

  153. barter this November 16, 2006 10:44 am

    Hi all, its been a while since I last posted.

    I see that some of you have the need to talk beliefs. I personally have too many contridictory thoughts to comment on the subjects.

    Looking outside the box helps…

    I figure that the Dems. aren’t going to impeach anyone as long as Bush and croneys towe the line.

    I figure China will hold the leash on North Korea as long as we leave the oil pipeline in Iran alone.

    I figure we will degociate with Iran to get our troops out of Iraq.

    I figure Pelose will try her best to turn us into a socialist community with Agenda 21 and the Hate Bill she has lined up for us. Mertha is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

    I read today that the WHO reciently sent out a memo for all to start the stay-at-home policy because the H1 Bird Flu is fixing to take hold. So if you haven’t started stock piling for up to (6 weeks ahead) now would be the time.

    Nice talking to you all…

  154. Makia November 16, 2006 1:02 pm

    Thanks barter.

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