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A different world cannot be built by indifferent people

Posted on November 20, 2006
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Dear Friends and Thinkers,

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Here are a couple of articles that I’m really interested in hearing feedback on from the community. The first is the introduction to Lou Dobbs’s new book, The War on the Middle Class. I scanned the whole introduction last night using an OCR (optical character recognition) program and my scanner. You can read it here:

Lou Dobbs: War on the Middle Class Introduction

He makes a lot of sense to me. I don’t agree with him on everything, but there is definitely more that I agree with than disagree. I don’t have cable TV, so I’ve never seen his reports. Of those of you who watch him, what do you make of him? How can he get away with this on corporate-owned mainstream media (MSM)? Comments appreciated.

The second article is on Carol Shea Porter, the first woman ever elected to Congress from New Hampshire. But the really interesting part is how she did it. She came from left field and had only the support of the grass roots that she cultivated. She only spent $123,000 in her campaign - the lowest amount of anyone in the election. She’s just a commoner like us, who was mad and decided to take action. The article, as well as links to more in-depth articles, is here:

Carol “Mrs. Smith” Shea-Porter Goes to Washington

Was her election just a fluke? Will we see more of this in the next election? To all you non-voters out there, doesn’t this make you want to vote!?

Finally, I’d like to share with you the fortune that came in my cookie the other night when I was out for Chinese food. It says, “A different world cannot be built by indifferent people.”

A different world cannot be built by indifferent people

I am pretty certain that no one here in our little community is indifferent!

Thank you all and Happy Thanksgiving!



Comments are closed. Thank you.


188 Comments so far
  1. Breck November 20, 2006 12:43 pm

    Wow! I didn’t know Lou Dobbs was wonderful!! I’ll have to start watching him along with Keith Olbermann, who is in the same fight for our rights.

  2. Breck November 20, 2006 12:45 pm

    Mike, you ask how Dobbs can get away with what he says on corporate sponsored media. Isn’t he on PBS? Or am I confusing him with ?

  3. Breck November 20, 2006 12:47 pm

    Nope I was wrong, CNN. In any event, good for him and good for them!

  4. Brian Farmer November 20, 2006 2:02 pm

    What’s so incredible is that someone as well-known as Lou Dobbs is on a high-profile media outlet like CNN and, yet, he seems to be the only major media person who is shining a light on the North American Union, illegal immigration, and how it all fits together: The power elites are trying to subvert the Constitution, destroy our national sovereignty, and fold us into a New World Order. This is all happening off the radar screen, which means that, in effect, the American people are having their country stolen from right under their noses, and they don’t even know what’s going on!

  5. Norman November 20, 2006 2:22 pm

    I appreciate your printing of Lou Dobbs’ opening remarks to his book. The American people have been sold out by both parties to the Corporate interests. Corporate elitists now own almost all of our media and we will never hear the truth on TV or the newspapers. Only the Internet is left and even that is under attack BECAUSE of the truth that is posted there. It won’t be long until even this last bastion of freedom will be censured by our government in the name of Political Correctness!! Sadly we have already lost America. There is no way to get the message out to enough people to make any significant changes in the direction we are headed. The middle class has no voice in this country now. We are racing to become a Third World nation

  6. Gerix November 20, 2006 2:26 pm

    Haven’t read Dobbs book yet, but have read the one below and highly recommend…..

    “Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class — And What We Can Do About It” by Thom Hartmann, Mark Crispin Miller

  7. turk November 20, 2006 3:01 pm

    The world seems to be following the old geo political theory that has the eastern and western hemispheres becoming the two dominant unified structures of world sovereignty. If so, the west is far behind the east and catch-up is vital. The North American Union and further unification of the western hemisphere may be the only way we can survive against the future onslaught of eastern hemishere power. Lou Dobbs is great in his thinking and he makes many valid points. He has been the only voice in popular media for the middle class when everyone else has been jumping on the merits of corporate owned America regardless of who gets lost in the wake. I think he would support the idea of a North American Union if it were not being pushed forward in such an underhanded way.

  8. John K. November 20, 2006 3:22 pm

    Lou Dobbs for President in 2008!

  9. Marc Authier November 20, 2006 4:11 pm

    And it’s NOT I repeat, It’s NOT just a made in USA phenomenom. It’s true for Europe, Asia, Russia, and the rest of the world. And why does this happen ? Try the UK and Switzerland and their corrupt banking system that allow the real rich to avoid paying ONE CENT of income taxes or any taxes. That’s the drama with the middle class. Too rich not to pay taxes and not enough poor too not to be imposed. Bravo to Lou Dobbs. However he is short on solutions. You should start by nuking Zurich and London.

  10. Marc Authier November 20, 2006 4:15 pm

    Yeah I hate the btitish scumbags and swiss scumbags in banking. These people are the scum of the earth and are the real ennemy of the middle class.

  11. Peter Harmon November 20, 2006 4:28 pm

    God bless Lou Dobbs for having the courage to tell the truth in the face of powerful opposition. I believe that the American middle class is targeted for oblivion, because a strong middle class stands in the way of a total takeover of society by the ones who want complete control of the populace. The tenets of a true republic upon which this country was founded are long gone, and I fear greatly for my children’s future.

  12. Rich November 20, 2006 5:10 pm

    I like Lou Dobbs, he’s actually publicly gone up against the membership of the Council on Foreign Relations - these people are where our problems emanate from:


    Ban public officials from being a member of a secret society, like the CFR, Bilderbergs, Tri-lateralists, Skull & Bones, etc.

    If you ban allegiance to secret agendas, and enforce it, then many of the problems of the middle class, upper middle class, working class, whatever, will evaporate BECAUSE ISSUES WILL BE IN THE OPEN.

    Then you might get me to vote!

    Cheers Rich

    PS. Look at the list of some of the members of CFR in the link I posted, they are from both parties, and if you saw the entire list you would see it includes most major daily newspaper editors, the TV network executives, generals, admirals, etc. Check it out. R

  13. SteveY November 20, 2006 6:17 pm

    I’ve been a huge fan of Lou Dobbs for years. Everyone should read his book. He seems to be the only man on TV with some common sense and has genuine interest in the well-being of hard working Americans. Lou for president in ‘08.

  14. Darren November 20, 2006 6:26 pm

    Compare Tomas Jefferson, third president of the United States, to George Bush:

    “Fix reason firmly in her seat, & call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, even if there is one, He must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear”

    – Thomas Jefferson

    The people of the U.S (not the only ones) are being told by Bush often to have “faith” — perhaps his favorite word. Does he want individuals not to be intellectually self-sufficient> i.e., to think rationally & to judge critically for themselves? He has often instructed to have “faith,” which is the antitheses of reason. It is the blind acceptance of ideas for which there is no sensory evidence or rational proof.

    One can not have a strong commitment to reason which Tomas Jefferson recommends & have a strong commitment to faith which Bush recommends.

    If Jefferson had been known for a having a strong commitment to faith instead of reason would he have been elected ? If Bush was known for having a strong commitment to reason instead of faith would he have been elected ?

    If the quality of ones life is in direct proportion to the thinking they have done & or failed to do, would the Quality of a nation also be in direct proportion to the thinking the masses have done & or failed to do.

    Could we be headed from the light of day of reason to the dark ages of the night? It is foolish to ask a weather man if the day will turn to night.

  15. muleskinner November 20, 2006 6:39 pm

    Marc Authier, tell us how you really feel about bankers. Don’t mince any words.

    You know, I’m always seeing and hearing times of eleven minutes after the hour. I’ll ask one of my children what time it is. She answered with a hour and then eleven minutes after the hour. I start my vehicle and when I look at the time on the clock, it reads 12:11. If I call for the time, it will be eleven minutes after five. I drove by a bank today, when I looked at the time on the lighted sign, it was 12:11 PM. I’ll wake up at night, it will be 3:11. Consistently, day after day after day until it is now working on over five years of it. It is uncanny.

    It is a phenomenon. A different world.

  16. rajan November 20, 2006 7:05 pm

    Hi Mike,

    I know you for a long time and am a regular reader. I knew you were a while in Japan and China. I see that you are in Cambridge now ?? I live in Winchester and work right by MIT’s infamous nuclear reactor !! PL let me know what you are doing in Cambridge and let us meet if possible. I certainly appreciate your views and see through a lot that is propagandized on the pop media. Also I listen to my coworkers and try to gain an understanding of the average American’s psyche. Makes me wonder where I am some days !! IN La-la Land where everything is nice, the sun is shining and it is 20C c 50% humidity.

    Anyway, you are my eye and mind candy. I want to meet you to see you in person. I will even treat you to a lunch at the MIT food court.

    So long


    PS printed out Dobbs article and it is going to be my bedtime story along with Bonners DR !!

    THINK — It is hard, but will save you. We are different, let us keep together and grow.

  17. Nathan November 20, 2006 7:13 pm

    Thank you, Michael. I’m going to get a copy Lou’s book for my brother in Iowa for Christmas.


  18. Ron November 20, 2006 7:58 pm

    It is my honest feeling , that the facts Lou Dobbs brings
    forth.Can Only occur in an environment of unlimited FIAT
    money.The current fact of life in our country.
    The United States , our
    beloved home. Can only exist amid honest money .

  19. dan de soto November 20, 2006 8:27 pm

    Corporate America holds dominion over the Republican and Democratic parties through campaign contributions, armies of lobbyists that have swamped Washington, and control of political and economic think tanks and media. What was for almost two hundred years a government of the people has become a government of corporations, and the consent of the governed is now little more than a quaint rubric of our Declaration of Independence, honored as a perfunctory exercise in artifice
    CREDIT: Lou Dobbs
    Call the above “military-industrial complex” or national socialism or socialism, it’s all the same: a developing global elite that has loyalties to each other and not to a country. The problem is that middle-class people don’t make very good servants and that’s the way, whether consciously or unconsciously, we are heading. After all, I believe that in the main we are already viewed that way. I fully expect to see ‘thought pieces’ extolling the virtues of “service”. By the way, that’s not public service—one of their main publications is called “Governing”.

  20. the stranger November 20, 2006 8:35 pm

    I’ve never seen Lou Dobbs on TV; but then I don’t turn it on much. Never heard of him either, until Barter got me looking into the North American Union. Since then I’ve watched several clips on the internet. Here’s a link to a bunch of them. He does seem damned honest for MSM; it’s a welcome change.

  21. the stranger November 20, 2006 8:46 pm

    Darren, good points. And, “Could we be headed from the light of day of reason to the dark ages of the night?” …seems likely because of the War on Reason.

  22. alex g chronis November 20, 2006 11:19 pm

    I am afraid that Lou Dobbs is “right on”,but what is terrifying to me is that the views and trends described in his book are irreversible. My hat off to him and shame on a majority of our fellow citizens for their apathy or greed.


  23. Don K November 21, 2006 4:52 am

    Mr. Dobbs’ comments are indeed true. His notion that the past 5 years are somehow the worst is incorrect. The past 50 years is more correct. As a teenager in the 50’s, I saw the transformation begin to take place. I registered and starting voting in 1960. Looking back I cannot see what good it did. For those of you that are serious students of these issues,I recommend the books listed here.
    “The Culture of Critique” by Kevin MacDonald
    “The Other Side of Deception” by Victor Ostrovsky
    pay particular attention to chapter 27
    “The Transformation of War” by Martin van Creveld
    “Race To The Bottom” by Alan Tonelson

  24. Uscanmexico November 21, 2006 5:34 am

    Globalization and Rest of the world. Every one wants ‘prospering economy’ for unlimited number of years and for future.

    So no one wanted to question as long as everythig looks great.

  25. Rich November 21, 2006 6:25 am

    Hey Uscanmexico.

    I’m with you on that, the people want prosperity and will turn a blind eye if they are getting it, kind of like Rome with free bread and gladiators provided by the emporer. But in the modern world the deception and manipulation has to run much deeper to fool the population, and that is where the real issue is for me.

    In the modern world govt’s/corps use every kind of trickery imaginable to keep the opium flowing to the masses and the masses distracted from reality. There is so much control over the media that not even the middle class understands what is real and what is fabricated anymore.

    For instance, something approaching 50% of Americans, and perhaps 75% of Europeans, believe that 9/11 was partly an inside job, a fabrication, some kind of scam - and that the media is used to explain the scam in technicolor.

    So we live in a time beyond just using “good times” to deceive the public, our leaders are brain washing large numbers of people routinely.

    Cheers Rich

  26. Rich November 21, 2006 6:38 am

    Hey Marc.

    I believe some of the bankers you are speaking of maybe British, for sure, but the cabal is global in scope and probably more influenced by NY than London at this point (and for the past 100 years). If you are a banker you typically will run operations from your largest market, not 3,000 miles away across the pond. Look at the original ownership of the Fed Res, it includes British, French, German and US families/banks.

    Muleskinner, we are at the 11th hour, perhaps the 11th minute of the 11th hour - - it is almost time!

    Cheers Rich

  27. zephyr November 21, 2006 7:22 am

    Dan De Soto #19, you are correct in saying the middle class would not make good servants. Americans, as a whole, may be a spoiled lot, but that also means giving up our independence will not come without a good fight.

    Rich, you are dead on in saying the masses are fine when all is good. But the opiates are losing their power. A lot of people are really starting to get pissed about getting screwed. My hope is we all don’t turn on each other when things go bad. And they will go bad and quick. The elites have to be aware the public is stirring from their coma. That leads me to believe the decline will be induced by the PTB soon, leading to a stupendous crash. When this happens, people will become desperate. We need to focus on who the enemy really is.

    I am not a violent person at all. But there are tons of guns in private hands in this country. We will not go down easily. Again, my fear is that the PTB know this, and will try to take a majority of us out with some engineered biological disaster. Bird Flu, anyone??

    I know a lot of this shit might sound wacky, but these people are evil and greedy. And they are also aware of diminishing fuel supplies and a planet that is showing signs of wear and tear. Thinning the herd, especially the ones who won’t be broken, might be in their best interest. Hell, they’ve already tried that with AIDS (see my prior posts on this topic). Man, I’m scaring myself as I write this. But I dare anyone on this thread to tell me that what I’m saying is implausable, in light of all that has already transpired.

    Last winter I went hiking alot (as I always do), and I prayed hard for God to give me guidance in my life. Shortly therafter, I began uncovering the truth about what’s going on in the world. Quite by chance….but one article lead to another which lead to another link until I feel safe in saying I’m outside the Matrix now. I believe God does answer prayers, just almost never in the way you may have been anticipating. Communicating with all of you has been a blessing.

    Stay strong and aware. I feel the current time we are in is similar to just before the tsunami hit in 2004. The tide went out really far. And alot of people just stared at it instead of recognizing it for what it was….a harbinger of things to come.

  28. Lucifer November 21, 2006 7:34 am

    Move along, there is nothing to see here. Move along…

  29. Administrator November 21, 2006 7:57 am

    I just came across this article in Time, called “How to stage a coup, American style”

    The plan is for a bunch of Libertarians - 20,000 to be exact - to move to tiny New Hampshire to create a “Libertarian showroom” for the rest of the country. NH is, of course, the state of “Live Free or Die.” It says that on the license plates. (Funny, several years ago someone cut off the part that said, “or die” and the state sued them! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_Free_or_Die)

    Hey Jeff K - what can you tell us about all this?

    What caught my eye at the end of the article is what one guy who is part of the movement said: “Democracy isn’t really ruled by the majority - it is ruled by the vocal minority.”

    For better or worse, that seems to be true. Be vocal about the things that are important, every chance you get - the library, the grocery store checkout line, town meetings and of course, when you vote!


  30. bp November 21, 2006 8:20 am

    hehe, #28 Lucifer, I like that - you are the Light.

    Michael good pick - I agree with much of what Lou says, but not the details - I think his most important function is to “Point To The Problem” - people need to see what he is pointing at. His definition of the problem and his solutions seem simplistic, but for now it is enough to point at the problem. I have felt that since the USSR went down we have lost the counter weight to the fly wheel - now we have unfettered global corporate capitalism and consumerism, ugh.

    Darren - I feel as you do re: “Could we be headed from the light of day of reason to the dark ages of the night?’, but I would interpret it a little different. My guess is that people will begin to see things as they are, the illusions of conventional belief will come into conflict with “reality” and they/we will end up in cognitive disonance, what a bummer. All our cherished illusions dashed. What happens then, probably can go two ways - either a dark ages, or a ratchet up to a higher level of functioning - gonna be interesting.

    With apologies to all, let me re-tred a tired cliche that may apply - Tune in, turn on, drop out —

    Tune In (Stop, Look what’s going down…people’s illusions are gonna drop soon, just a matter of time)

    Turn On (in this case Turn Off) - people have to stop “escaping”, using prozac, zolof, ritilan, cocaine, mindless activity - whatever numbs the brain - I agree with Rich - people have gotten numb to what is going on around them. My guess in this area is rather extreme - I seem to have a hunch that people’s Heart Chakras will “open up” (possible next step in evolution?) and people will begin to “feel” the pain of the earth and of all of humanity, all of the person-on-person cruelity and injustice (ok, it’s a bit extreme, heh)

    Drop Out - stop consumerism, corporate capitalism and other forms of injustice in their extreme forms - here is where our actions need to take place, and any number of things can happen - we talked about a lot of them, peak oil, economic collapse, famine, epidemic, earth changes - might be all and how we react will be individually, but still our actions will be cummulative, definitely gonna be interesting.

    IMHO, there definitely won’t be much “indifference” around here in another 10-20 years.

  31. zephyr November 21, 2006 8:55 am

    Bp, you’re right, ever since the demise of the Soviets there has been no counterbalance to rampant capitalism. The downfall of communism was good in one respect but it left one superpower country to police itself (Yeah, right hahahahaha).

    You know, I don’t know if there is one political/societal system that works. It’s seems they all work to some degree on paper, but then you add the human element and then they all fail. Looks like ours is just going to be added to a long list of failures. Power corrupts. Always has, always will.

  32. kastor November 21, 2006 10:43 am

    31: “The downfall of communism,…”
    This is the greatest deception of the past fifteen years. Let me be the first to tell you: Communisim is not only alive and well, it is thriving like never before.

  33. Dan November 21, 2006 10:46 am

    There are two issues which need to be confronted before we can conceive of a truly different world. Witout addressing each of these, our visions are merely the stuff that dreams are made of.
    The first is the idea that religion is a positive force in the world. It is the source of conflict, righteous division, sanctimonious mahem and superstiotion masquerading as public policy. Unfortunately, no one is going to get anywhere in American politics trying to confront that contradiction.
    Second issue is the fiction tht Corporations have the rights of an individual. This abomination in the Constitution has led to the unfettered imposition of corporate will over collective governance. Anyone interested in a true piece of legal pornography should check out the Supreme Court decision in Buckley V Vallejo which asserts that money is equivalent to free speech.
    Lou Dobbs is riding a nice populist horse at the moment, but don’t imagine that he would be sitting there if he were truly perceived as a threat to the status quo.
    Go rent the old movie “Network” if you need to be reminded what this populism as entertainmet routine is all about.

    If us doom and gloom types are right however, about a year and a half from now will be an interesting time to begin loudly proclaiming alternate visions. After the collective market crashes rub enough people’s faces in the nasty fact that they have been had, their anger might be tapped. Of course they could also be using their right to bear arms to express their frustrations in a more direct manner.
    Hang on, it is about to be a real interesting time.

  34. bp November 21, 2006 10:55 am

    #32 kastor, er “downfall of communism”, well, er, ok, but…call it what you like, the power counterbalance was removed, and nature abhors a vacuum.

    Ultimately it is just power structures we look at, “the state”, “totalitarianism”, ‘communism” “multinational organizations” if you will - we all point at the “thing’ and give it different labels - still the problem is there. I say it’s the concentration of power in the hands of the few, maybe now it is multinational corporations/banks/drug-and-slave marketeers - let’s not let “labels” get in the way of pointing at the problem…we can define it when we all see the same thing.

  35. zephyr November 21, 2006 11:23 am

    Kastor, you would need to elaborate ie: back up that statement before I can even respond to it. Something happened in the late 80’s, early 90’s….what exactly would you say that was? Communism might not be totally dead, but it’s sort of like smallpox. It used to be omnipresent, now it’s in a few vials. The fact that it is not totally dead means it could mutate and come back, that’s true. Matter of fact, it has mutated…..it’s called China.

    Dan, religion can be a very positive force in the world, and done right, people representing God correctly have done much good works. True, there are some evils MF’s in religion too who use their very religions as a battering ram to justify their small-minded prejudices and hatreds. More blood has been shed over religious misbeliefs and differences than almost anything else. Unfortunately, it’s hard separating the wheat from the chaff, as it were.

    To totally dismiss religion is wrong. People who have been hypocrites should not chase one from God, who I’m sure is none to pleased with these hatemongers. Various scriptures back up this exact thought. But there are at least an equal number of religious people doing wonderful things throughout the world

    Religion is faith, it’s a belief in something you can’t prove. I think that’s sort of the point. If it were obvious, what would be the point? Belief would be meaningless. And it may be hard to express to a non-believer, but I have experienced too much in my life for me not to be a believer.

    Example, I disagree greatly with the Catholic church on many issues. But that dousn’t mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater. Hell Dan, do you have anybody in your life you agree with 100% on everything. Pope John Paul II was a great man who made an immense amount of positive difference around the world. Read his autobiography…..amazing stuff….did I agree with everything he said or stood for? No. But the point is he was a beacon of light and hope for many people. Tell me, when was the last time the world mourned the passing of one individual the way John Paul was mourned. Do you dismiss that? So don’t tell me religion cannot be a positive fource in the world. Just dismiss the assholes who are obvious nutbags….they don’t speak for everyone.

  36. Dan November 21, 2006 11:45 am

    Sorry Zephyr if you took that as a personal affront.
    It is one of those conundrums that makes telling the truth for each of us so hard.
    We seemingly insult other people’s beliefs while speaking our hearts.
    I believe that John Paul was a negative force in history. His conservatism and his pronouncements on sex and his protection of pedaphile priests made the population crisis worse, injured many innocent people were deeply divisive to the ability of the world to find common ground. And he was a lot better than the former Nazi who sits on Peter’s throne right now.
    No, I have to admit that I still find the carnage done in the name of various true faiths much worse than the good done by those of pure faithful intentions. The tribal impulse to say your side is better, saved, holier etc than the other tribe is just too fired and fed by the God based superstitions to be healthry for our fragile planet.
    But then, that is a matter of belief on my part. The only religious figure who managed to do a lot of good without needing a God to befuddle the masses was the Buddha. He taught us that peace comes from within us, not from without.

  37. muleskinner November 21, 2006 12:22 pm

    Don’t forget gnosticism. If anybody is befuddled, it’s Michael Richards.

    He made it a different world for his own bad, bad, bad, real bad bad.

    Then I think of the perspective, it gives me reason to ponder. Like, for example, George Bush wouldn’t be caught dead speaking the ‘N’ word. No way at all. He also wouldn’t be caught dead mentioning the flag-draped caskets coming home from Iraq. Who has been tougher on humanity? George Bush is responsible for bombing Iraq into submission. Michael Richards says some harsh words against a person or persons of color. Who has done more damage to the human cause, that being existing on earth in relative peace? George Bush or Michael Richards? Got to give them both a break if you give anybody a break. Maybe the sin is too great. Too much a burden to bear, it encumbers the soul.

    You can’t escape what is called ’sin,’ a regrettable action. Doing wrong, any defining word referring to an action that harms others.

    To err is human, to forgive divine

    I’ve been called a Norwegian Caveman. I’m the first to admit to being guilty of that infraction.

    Some forgiveness, for God’s sake.

    When you forgive and forget, you can make it a different world. It’s a rough, haggard looking world out there these days.

    The most advanced man has ever become on this planet is right now, today, and yet, we still have a heckuva time getting along anyway at all.

    I’ll be getting along now. Like Lucifer says, keep moving along, nothing here. What a brainless twit the no good bastard is.

  38. zephyr November 21, 2006 12:34 pm

    No, I didn’t take it as a personal affront. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you weren’t bashing mine and I don’t believe I was bashing yours. I told you I didn’t agree with everything John Paul did. However, to say that he was a negative force in history I find a wee bit negative, and yes sorry, ignorant. To deny what he did for human rights throughout his life is ignorant of his deeds. You really need to do a little research. Plus, as I said, if he was such a negative force, why did millions of ALL faiths around the globe, even atheists, mourn his passing? When have you ever seen foreign leaders and dignitaries of so many nations attend one man’s wake?

    As far as his successor, the jury is still out. I will say while all the fundamentalist nutbags were cheering on Israel’s destruction of Lebanon, he was the only voice to criticize it, which drew recognition from Bill O’Reilly of all people.

    Buddha made some good points. I’m one of these rare Christians who believes we can all learn from one another. Which brings to mind, John Paul consistently extended olive branches to other faiths, including the day in 1986 when he invited people from all faiths to come to the Vatican for a world day of prayer. Unprecedented. And the Mea Culpa he proclaimed for any sins committed by the church through history. That doesn’t strike me as a negative force. Of course, if that’s athe way you feel, and if you feel God is a myth or superstition, that’s cool. I have no definitive proof otherwise. Like I said, it’s faith. Besides, I’ve met atheists who are much better people that so-called Christians, so who’s to say. Best to keep your own house in order before venturing out.

  39. Nolan November 21, 2006 12:42 pm

    muleskinner (15), yes. And so?

    Perturbed are you? Care to say more?

  40. muleskinner November 21, 2006 12:57 pm

    Here’s the world we’re inhabiting. It’s as good as it gets. It doesn’t get any better.

  41. zephyr November 21, 2006 1:39 pm

    Wow, doesn’t look like there is much ice left…..and I thought those global warming bastards were lying…….:-)

  42. muleskinner November 21, 2006 1:51 pm

    Oh no, it is true, the earth has warmed. One glacier in Alaska has receded 65 miles since the early 1900’s. The Artic Ocean has 667,000 square miles of area that is now water and what was once ice.

    That five thousand year old hiker that was discovered in the Alps a few years back had been on ice for a few thousand years.

    The Alps as of yesterday were virtually snow free.

    You need to register to view the earth at this web site, but it is free and worth the while.

  43. muleskinner November 21, 2006 2:05 pm

    Make that a snow free Alps last summer:

    Summer Alps

  44. Makia November 21, 2006 2:14 pm

    I haven’t had time to read all the posts, but i’d like to weigh in on the USSR vs US issue.

    I think that the big issue is that the PTB have known that in order to acheive their goals, they needed to develop a totalitarian socialist state. I think that for a while they’ve been willing to settle for a faschist state and they may be willing to settle on that for a while.

    Its crazy because the US and the USSR seemed to be ideaologically opposed, but a good arguement could be made that they were simply different degrees of socialism. Faschism was gaining great strength here in the US, and is basically the status quo, with a little pure socialism and small-market free enterprise sprinkled in (more of the former).

    Today, people (in the US) think that China and US are idealogically opposed, but in reality the government and economic structure are almost identical. Almost IDENTICAL! Fascinating how in the dark “the middle class” is. (And i wonder about their future fortitude or anger, they’re very much conditioned to not question the PTB, even in the face of blatant betrayal). Totalitarian faschism. Great. Yeah, i’d say that’s a good arguement for what the middle class of any country is up against.

    Did you know that some Chinese VOTE in municipal elections? Is that a step in the right direction, or is it the same ploy as in the west where people are thrown bones to let them think they have influence?

    I heard an American business man talking about how much nicer it is doing business in China as a small business. Much fewer licenses, taxes, and codes to follow and pay for to get up and running and stay that way for a small business. His explanation was that the Chinese gov’t wants small businesses to succeed, its good for the people and the economy. And he’s absolutely right. Its good for the average guy and average community. Plus, when big companies get too big because they’ve trounced on all the little guys, they eventually gain power within the gov’t. The communists know better than to let that happen. No, better to make it hard for the big guys to get too big, let the little guys feel some independence, and keep the gov’t big enough to keep everybody in check.

    The unsaid point is that the average Chinese value stability far more than individual rights, and at this point, the Americans are in great denial that they are the exact same way. Our government, political, and economic models make the painfully obvious, well . . .

  45. Makia November 21, 2006 2:16 pm

    BTW, my number (muleskinner #15) was 37. It drove me crazy for quite a while.

  46. kastor November 21, 2006 2:16 pm

    35, Zephyr, here is the link to Nystrom’s latest. It is entitled “Kremlin Poison”. Nystrom has written a few articles about this subject. His few articles are but a drop in the bucket of the information out there to support the fact that communism has never really died, it is in fact growing in strength in many corners. Don’t focus, as the popular thinking has, on the occurances of the late eighties and early nineties. U.S. foriegn policy in the aftermath of those times, in the Balkans and other places along with the lack of humility in our foreign policy after we declared ourselves the ‘winner’ of the cold war, can all be partially blamed for the current rise in the new communist push.

  47. Nolan November 21, 2006 2:17 pm

    muleskinner (40), yes. And the middle class? Just stay (far) above it all? What will be, will be?

  48. zephyr November 21, 2006 2:33 pm

    Muleskinner, I’m sorry, I was being a dickhead….I was being sarcastic…..I absolutely believe in global warming. Actually, it is shocking to see how little ice and snow is left throughout the world. And supposedly how quick the rest of it can go.

  49. Nolan November 21, 2006 2:34 pm

    From Dean Baker:

    The Causes of Inequality: It Ain’t the Market
    The Wall Street Journal features a long piece today noting the growth in inequality and what the Democrats might do about it. Remarkably, the article never once examines how the government, under both Democratic and Republican administrations, has structured the market in ways that shift income upward.

    Can a Wall Street Journal reporter really not have noticed that U.S. trade and immigration policy has been focused on putting less educated workers in competition with the developing world, while largely protecting highly paid professionals like doctors, lawyers, and Wall Street Journal reporters from having to compete with their counterparts in the developing world? Do Wall Street Journal reporters think that the patents and copyrights that made Bill Gates and the Silicon Valley kids rich came from god?

    Posing the question as one where the government is trying to redress inequality generated by the market is stacking the deck. The government structured the market in ways that lead to massive inequality. The market can be structured other ways. Yes, this is yet another pitch for the “Conservative Nanny State”. But, remember, the book can be downloaded for free, and once you read it, you will never be as ignorant as a Wall Street Journal reporter again.

    –Dean Baker


  50. Makia November 21, 2006 2:37 pm

    Far above it Nolan? I’m an in-the-trenches kind of guy. I will be grounded, my life comes from heaven, but my current purpose is dependant on the earth (as a physical being how can i argue). Or another way to counter “staying above it”: what goes up must come down. If you’re in the trenches you cannot fall. And yes, what will be will be.

    No, the communist movement and propaganda never went away. In many ways the movement came to the U.S., changed some phrasiology (so as not to be recognized) and has prospered steadily. Many of the “blame america first” crowd have come from this. In central america, south america, and other places it has just been ignored by the US, it never went anywhere; the hot war still kills lots of people.

    It can be argued, and i lean this way, that communism and capitalism are both the ideologies that are promoted by the PTB, while undermining them at the same time. In this way, they use banks and business to run government, and give the public every reason to mistrust both of them. But folks can’t (uhhhh, anyone want to disagree with “can’t”) deal with the fact that both sides are actually the same side and certain people within it are defacto rulers competing against eachother (not for votes). The “one side” actually benefits greatly from the People’s desire to “split hairs” and mistrust either business or gov’t (liberal vs conservative, socialism vs cpaitalism). Because of this, the People have given up almost everything to BOTH sides, which are somehow increasingly indistinguihable. Its quite amazing.

  51. kastor November 21, 2006 2:51 pm

    Another example of how communism has been proliferated to many nooks and crannies of the world and has the power to grow, can be found in the export of the North Korean philosophy of ‘Juche’. Twenty years ago, most of the world paid little attention to the Korean perninsula, all the while they have been making connections with like minded potentates all over the globe. In fact, their philosophy of ‘Juche’ has been long studied by many people in our backyard, such as Hugo Chavez. It is an insidious form of communist doctrine cloaked in the need for nations to be self sufficient in everything. The little bastard in the north of Korea has been extremely wiley and successful in exporting this philosophy and it has influenced many. We thought so-called free market capitalism would rule in Latin America after the Reagan successes there and then after the ‘end’ of the cold war. We took our eye off of the foreign policy needs and focused on the power of the dollar with the end result being the Hugo Chavezes of the continent we will now have to contend with.

  52. Marc Authier November 21, 2006 3:37 pm

    Communism or capitalism. The objective is always the same. Concentrate the wealth in the hands of the cronies of the President in the ex USSR or in the USA or anywhere. That’s what I think about your democracy in 2006. Clinton or Bush ? I see no difference. One is just a little bit more bloody, but the policies are always the same. Screw the middle class and enrich monopolists like Bill Gates or Google shareholders or the Wal Mart family members. It’s a sort of very sophisticated shadow embezzlment and it’s always the middle class that gets it in on the chin. Call it plutocracy, kleptocracy, bankracy. But any way you spell it for the middle class it’s always spelled bankruptcy.

  53. Uscanmexico November 21, 2006 4:09 pm

    Today’s market is another indication that markets are determined to go up. The only known reason is lot of money. Where from it is comming no idea except it may be a mega fraud of the history.

    We have plenty of time to know when it will end. Just follow Indian stocks, if they fall for a month then we can think US stocks also can fall. The reason is one fine day Institutions will start diverting funds from India to US.

  54. Jerry Beck November 21, 2006 4:36 pm

    All true but it has always been this way.

    Whether here and now or centuries ago in other civilizations elites have always fed off the masses.

    What difference does it make? Read any book on cosmology to see that earth and humanity are evanescent events.

    In the face of our own inescapable death does any political event matter?

  55. Rich November 21, 2006 4:44 pm

    Hey Marc.

    I have a term for what you are describing:


    Its new, its modern, it tastes good and it smells right.

    Cheers Rich

  56. kastor November 21, 2006 5:30 pm

    Forty years ago, we had plenty of problems on this old planet to contend with but, there was always hope. Even with the possibility of nuclear war in the back of peoples minds,(and still today) we had hope. There seems to be a waxing attitude of no hope for the future today. No matter what kind of self destruction mankind could have conceived forty years ago, we knew the old earth was here to stay for millions of years. Today it seems we can actually conceive of a dead planet closer to our lifetimes than some distant time millions or even hundreds of thousands of years in the future. We can see, feel and taste the dying planet and we are coming to the realization that we may have gone past, or are too close to the point of no return. True or not, global warming or not, the lack of hope for a future that promises anything but misery seems to be spreading like a plague.

  57. muleskinner November 21, 2006 6:06 pm
  58. Dan November 21, 2006 6:24 pm

    Couple of points for you post Cold War patriots.
    Perhaps you might consider going to read a bit of Marx, turgid as his prose might be. He had a fairly good take on how society gets done in by concentrations of wealth. But that guy Lenin knew how to take that analysis and turn it into crowd stirring propaganda. Sorta like the way that Fascist St Paul made that abomination of a catholic church out of poor old Jesus’s “love the poor” message. History belongs to the spin churners, not the source thinkers.
    And as for this Global Warming issue. It has been around for a while. But we were too busy venerating free markets and the purity of Democracy to notice what a crock of shit it all is. Do you want to do something to preserve our poor planet?

    How about joining in “Purchase Nothing” on this coming Friday and Saturday?

    How about joining our good moderator Michael, and gving up your car for a bike?

    How about forgetting the absolute bullshit which pits Capitalism against Communism? They are both ways of ordering an economy for the benefit of all. Adam Smith would not have had as many arguements with Marx as JP Morgan would have had with Lenin. It is all about the sense of power which comes with bending the masses to your will.

    Yes the icecaps are melting, the glaciers are retreating and today in a New England swamp I saw the skunk cabbage poking our its shoots in a frigid November morning. This is an promise of spring seen in April, not an abomination of the end of Fall.
    We are going to have to live through some mighty hard times for the next decade and a whole lot of people are not going to like giving up their SUVs, or their McMansions or their Capitalist heritage to do whatever they want that the market will allow.
    The world is not going to end, but it sure the hell is going to demand a lot more for our individual survival.
    The visioning of a better world is going to mean what we want on the other side of a decade of hundreds of millions of spoiled brats having a collective tantrum when they realize that they really are not the masters of the Universe. And they have the right to bear arms to prove it.

  59. Joey November 21, 2006 7:05 pm

    The new and improved Lou Dobbs along with the Shea-Porters and John Testers are giving me hope.

    It looks like the spirit of Huey Long is waking up in the American people. From Huey Long’s Share the Wealth speech:

    “How many men ever went to a barbecue and would let one man take off the table what’s intended for 9/10th of the people to eat? The only way to be able to feed the balance of the people is to make that man come back and bring back some of that grub that he ain’t got no business with! [Laughter and applause]

    Now we got a barbecue. We have been praying to the Almighty to send us to a feast. We have knelt on our knees morning and nighttime. The Lord has answered the prayer. He has called the barbecue. “Come to my feast,” He said to 125 million American people. But Morgan and Rockefeller and Mellon and Baruch have walked up and took 85 percent of the victuals off the table!

    Now, how are you going to feed the balance of the people? What’s Morgan and Baruch and Rockefeller and Mellon going to do with all that grub? They can’t eat it, they can’t wear the clothes, they can’t live in the houses.

    Giv’em a yacht! Giv’em a Palace! Send ‘em to Reno and give them a new wife when they want it, if that’s what they want. [Laughter] But when they’ve got everything on God’s loving earth that they can eat and they can wear and they can live in, and all that their children can live in and wear and eat, and all of their children’s children can use, then we’ve got to call Mr. Morgan and Mr. Mellon an Mr. Rockefeller back and say, come back here, put that stuff back on this table here that you took away from here that you don’t need. Leave something else for the American people to consume. And that’s the program. [Applause]“

  60. kastor November 21, 2006 7:06 pm

    resource depletion and the pressure of an overpopulated planet are more dire than global warming. many things are converging in this century, it is not just one cause. global warming may be the most benign problem we face. human population is, of course, the root of the problem. pollution of the oceans is close to reaching a point where they may not be able to recover into the same state we have known them to be in our lifetimes.

  61. Rich November 21, 2006 8:15 pm

    Dan and kastor.

    You are describing Peak Humanity in all of its glory.

    Make hay while the sun shines, pretty soon we are going to be in for very hard times and we are in the twilight of a relatively stable and somewhat happy existence.

    Cheers Rich

  62. Darren November 21, 2006 8:27 pm

    The trend in the last 20 years or so is for investors to invest in mutual funds & of late hedge funds. Are investors becoming less independent & becoming more dependent?

    Independence is the recognition of the fact that yours is the resposibility of judgement & nothing can help you escape it - that no substitute can do your thinking,as no pinch-hitter can live your life-that the vilest form of self-abasement & self-destruction is the subordination of your mind to another, the acceptance of his assertions as facts, his say- so as truth, his edicts as middleman between your consciousness & your exsistance.
    Ayn Rand

    Individuals do they really want a goverment of the people,by the people for the people ?


    Does the goverment want to lead & the people want to follow ?

    When the masses primary contact with reality is through consciousness of others instead of through valid ideas could it cause a mainia?

    Hitler & the masses of Germany were not men of valid ideas one wanted to lead & the others wanted to follow.

    This is not only happening in the U.S, it is also happening in Canada where I live.

  63. Andrew November 21, 2006 8:56 pm

    Hmmm… almost but not quite.

    Lou is almost there, but he’s only scratching the surface. In fact, I think the reason he can get away with what he’s saying is because he points a finger at “radical islamist terrorists”.

    But hold on.

    Bin Laden and Co. didn’t perpetrate 9/11, our own government did. Don’t believe me? You don’t have to. Believe thousands of professors/scholars and professionals/scientists in their assessment of the 9/11 attacks. http://www.st911.org

    The truth of the matter is, there is a small group of individuals who control the administration and perpetrated 9/11 in order to win carte blanche to wage an unjust war of imperialism on afghanistan and iraq for energy and political purposes. Lou is playing a tricky game by APPEARING to be anti-establishment, but really, he’s MISDIRECTING attention away from the government. And what does the government do when Lou says “radical Islamist terrorists” ?? They scramble to release statements contradicting his statements and “smooth” over the racially inflammatory comments and make themselves out to be neutral… defenders of rights even. The sick part is that the GOVERNMENT is the one fueling this slow fear and alienation between Muslims and non-muslim Americans.

    I can’t tell if Lou is genuine, or if he’s a Bill O’Reilly in sheeps clothing. I’m not joking. EVERYTHING he says is spot on, except ANY reference he makes to the war on terror. We aren’t fighting “muslim” terrorists. THE TERRORISTS WERE STATE SPONSORED AND DEMOLISHED THE TWIN TOWERS IN A HIGHLY CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. THE VIDEO AND FACTUAL EVIDENCE IS AT http://WWW.ST911.ORG.

    The reason why I’m so suspicious is because the ONE point Lou is way off on is the “islamist terrorists” assertion. But to know that the islamist terrorist (conspiracy) theory is false is to know that the government suits (cheney/bush) are the real killers. And based on all of Lou’s other points, which are consistent with the “anti-new world order, pro-liberty for the common people point of view, he should KNOW how 9/11 fits into the puzzle.

    C’mon Lou! Didn’t you ever have those SAT-type verbal questions that said to pick out the example that doesn’t belong in the group. Well Lou’s Islamist terrorist argument doesn’t belong in his whole spiel. Why? Because it’s not true. The theory that 19 hijackers can hijack four commercial aircraft with BOXCUTTERS and fly them into the twin towers and the pentagon without getting shot down by fighters and then collapsing steel-frame highrises via their jet fuel… etc etc it’s a conspiracy theory. and the public ate it up because we were in SHOCK. But we’re waking up slowly, so HURRY UP AND WAKE UP AND VISIT THE SITE BEFORE THEY TAKE IT DOWN.

    You have no right to consider yourself someone who “has the best interests of the population at heart” unless you make yourself AWARE of what the government ALREADT DID 5 YEARS AGO ON 9/11. This is not a joke, and I am not a nutjob, or a conspiracy theorist. I’m fortunate to be a rational and well-educated person who likes to think that he’s a critical and independent thinker. Now, if that sounds like you, checkout http://www.st911.org and SEE FOR YOURSELF. And afterwards, tell all of your friends and other people you don’t even know.

    It just may awaken you to the reality of our existence. Would love to hear feedback on this.

    Lou’s almost there, but not quite.

  64. kastor November 21, 2006 9:17 pm

    9-11 was NOT a Bush/Cheny/ Neo Conservative/ Israeli conspiracy. It was a conspiracy perpetrated by radical Muslims. I have read or viewed no concrete theories or evidence to the contrary. Much of the evidence offered by the ‘9/11 Cheny did it’ conspiracy people can be easily contradicted by science and logic. The rest of the theory can be written off as fiction created by those who can’t deal with reality. There is no concrete evidence or valid anecdotal evidence for your claim.

  65. Administrator November 21, 2006 9:58 pm

    Andrew - thank you. I’ve been waiting for someone to point this out. Kudos to you!!

    It is the sore thumb that sticks out, the dog that doesn’t bark, or like the old song on Sesame Street: “One of these things is not like the other/ one of these things just doesn’t belong.” Like I said in the intro - I don’t agree with him on everything.

    Kastor - I encourage you to watch this short video: Loose Change . I have found that many people who don’t believe in the “conspiracy theories” about 911 haven’t looked closely at the evidence. I’m not saying that you haven’t looked at it, just that many people dismiss it outright and those people usually don’t even want to look a the evidence.

    Loose change is about an hour long - it is very well put together, and it covers most of the bases while being very accessible. Of course, it is only the beginning. http://www.st911.org/ has a wealth of information and links.

    I remain open, but at this point it looks to me like 911 was an inside job. Kastor, and any other skeptics, please watch the video and let us know what you think.


  66. Administrator November 21, 2006 10:04 pm

    CORRECTION: That link above is just a teaser/preview. The full movie is here, at Google Video:


    It is an hour and a half, but covers the bases well.


  67. muleskinner November 21, 2006 10:13 pm

    John Ashcroft stopped flying commercial airliners in July of 2001.

    Somebody knew in advance that there was some kind of retaliatory action in the works. Some knew that there was something in the wind.

    That’s what happened and that’s evidence.

    When you know ahead of time of a threat to a person or a people, and you do nothing about it, you are complicit.

    I don’t know who did it. I don’t want to know.

    Somebody is witholding the truth. Somebody is lying.

    Ask me no questions and I’ll tell you no lies.

  68. Brian Ciara November 21, 2006 11:22 pm

    In response to #65. Absolutely it was an inside job!
    There so much evidence it’s unbelievable…davidicke.com

    It’s called “PROBLEM - REACTION - SOLUTION” How else would Washington be able to pass a bill such as the Patriot Act…to take away rights and freedoms, people freely willingly…please save us and take away all our rights & liberties you want, but please save us!!!

    Problem - reaction - solution is simply, cause a problem big enough, the masses react and of course our wonderful politicians have the perfect solution. Solution, take away rights and freedoms so that our brillant politicians have carte blanche to do what ever they want.

    It’s always worked this way and history always repeats itself in one form or another, this form just happens to that ____________ family from Texas, you fill in the blank…

    God Bless!!

    P.S. Buy some Gold and/or Silver Bullion. There’s a huge financial hurricane 5 storm coming. The coming U.S Currency Crisis is inevitable. Protect yourself!!

  69. Joseph Zack November 22, 2006 5:01 am

    sorry Mr. Dobbs.

    It’s nice that you finally seem to “get it”.

    But at this junction of time, your opinion is way too little way too way.

    Not to be mean spirited, but perhaps you are endeavoring to do some “legacy building” for when you retire.

    The “Republic” is dead now and the economic system that we call “capitalism”; has bee DOA, for quite some time now.

    The “new blood” in CONgress will NOT roll back any legislative “security measures” that were enacted with nearly complete “bi-partisan” support.

    This will be painfully evident no later than April 2007.

  70. Makia November 22, 2006 5:16 am


  71. zephyr November 22, 2006 6:31 am

    Man, I step away for half a day and all hell breaks lose. But on this thread that’s a good thing. Where do I start…such insight by all.

    Starting lightheartedly, muleskinner and makia, My number is 4 but here’s the bizarre thing that makes me feel like rainman, I do the laundry in my house. Whenever I hang the clothes outside, when I reach into the bag for clothespins, 90% of the time I pull out the exact number I need. It just gets kinda weird after awhile. Anyway…..

    Makia, you are wise beyond your years. Kastor, You’ve given me a different way of looking at how communism may not have died but morphed. I do like Hugo Chavez though. Anybody that calls Bush the devil on a world stage is OK in my book. Plus, he has done alot to help those less fortunate, even here in the US. It’s too cynical to say it’s solely propaganda. And lastly Kastor, I’ve researched 911 to no end and you are wrong here. The govt excuses and Popular Mechanics answers hold far less water than the “conspirists”. This was pure and simple a false flag operation. Actually, not lastly, your comment on St. Paul is ,sadly, accurate. He did manage to spread Christianity quite successfully, but he distorted Jesus’ message greatly along the way. I’ve always had a problem with all his epistles because they were so obviously colored with his own opinions, and because of his persistence, he dominates the New Testament landscape. Too many of his regimented views are where modern day Baptists and the like get their justifications for their whacked out ideas. I agree, the Catholic church has it’s issues, but just saying the word Baptist makes the hair on my neck raise. These hypocrites wrap themselves in the bible and quote verbatim (which always creeps me out) various lines from scripture, but they almost always do it in a hateful, judgemental manner. THEY are the ones who truly give Christianity a bad name. Basically, Baptist theology is Christianity 101 for idiots…..just tell me who to condemn in Jesus name and I will do it!

    Andrew, I have to agree, something doesn’t ring true with Lou Dobbs. It’s the same thing with Bill Maher. He at least mentioned briefly the 911 conspiracy, but he dismissed it so quickly out of hand and moved on. It’s true, these people have it dead on except for the one underlying theme. It’s like pointing to all the elephant shit in your living room but ignoring the fact that there’s a friggin’ elephant in your living room. I don’t wish to be distrustful of everything, but are these people just diversions for the masses? I would hate to think so but as you say, they make a solid argument and then stop just short of what is logically the next step. I know the mass media is controlled but how can you ignore all the scholars and scientists. And when these issues are addressed, the views are slanted towards these people being alone in their nutty opinions, and then you have the patronizing “expert” who, in summation, supports the govt position and explains away 911 theorists as “just people who want to make sense out of a senseless act”.

    I read an article yesterday on LewRockwell.com about some guy doing a documentary on the CIA involvement in the assassination of Bobby Kennedy. He thoroughly researches and backs up his assertion. How many travesties are the American people going to swallow? I mean, God, the govt explanations in all these instances are so flimsy, yet the people all too willingly accept the answers. The citizens are like the dog that barks and growls, but once he’s swatted with a newspaper, he tucks his tail between his legs and goes back to his corner. When is our Tiananmen Square? When do we start growing some balls?

  72. nestor November 22, 2006 6:35 am


    “And yet, at the crest of the housing tidal wave and leading edge of a huge recession — if not depression — nearly everyone wants to ignore the facts …. ”

    what makes you think you’re right? that YOU can predict what will happen tomorrow? that there will be a depression? that the world is comming to an end?


  73. Dan November 22, 2006 6:37 am

    In ancient Rome, some pirates (terrorists) attacked the port of Rome and burned it to the ground. The Citizens were frightened that they, the worlds only hyper power could be attacked by a non state.
    The Senate passed sweeping legislation giving dictatorial power to the General Pompy to protect them. Pompy was displaced by Julius Ceaser who was proclaimed emperore (oddly, the Latin word for emperor was roughly “pope”, but that is a different story)

    So anyway, we all know what happened to the Republic once the emporer was proclaimed.
    Were the pirates who burned the ports a set up? History doesn’t say.
    We will probably be stuck with the same lack of real truth re 9-11. But I do remember something about the CIA giving a bunch of money to back Osama Bin Laden in the mujahadeen years in AFganistan.
    Isn’t it strange how history has these little rhymes to figure out?

  74. muleskinner November 22, 2006 6:42 am

    Alan Greespan, Mr. Magoo, didn’t have a good track record in forecasting?

    “Greenspan actually had a terrible forecasting record as a private consultant before taking over at the Fed, as William Rutherford points out in his book Who Shot Goldilocks.”

    Everybody makes mistakes. Alan Greespan must know the Mistake family too.

    The only good a communist can do is to commit apostasy.

    Weren’t the PTB financing the Russian Revolution? Cryptome

  75. muleskinner November 22, 2006 6:43 am
  76. Rich November 22, 2006 6:47 am

    I think Andrew is on to something, if Islamo-Fascism trumps EVERYTHING in the eyes of the fearful sheeple then you can throw the entire establishment under the bus routinely and it won’t stick because folks will be worried about an attack at home.

    The establishment NEED Americans to fear terrorism, that appears to be their leading agenda. Good leadership would suggest you “teach” the population to ignore terrorism, by recognizing the damage they do you legitimize their impact and formalize the terror agenda. This govt is doing the antithesis of what good leadership should do.

    I watched 911 on the TV and didn’t believe it could happen without massive inside support. I lived in Tehran as a teenager and still don’t believe that a bunch of Saudi’s in a cave in Afghanistan could pull off the greatest intelligence job, and commando raid, the world has ever seen.

    Also, the downing of the Twin Towers is such an amazingly well controlled demolition that it must’ve taken some of the best in the business, etc, etc. There is so much evidence now it is astounding, but you have to suspend blind belief in the media event that followed. If you can’t do that then arguably you have no reason to be on this site!?

    Brian Ciara, you are referring to the Hegelian Dialectic, Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis - - the means by which you can establish a form of mind control over the sheeple. Chomsky would call this “managed consent” - so critical in a “democracy.”

    Michael, the video you posted on the home page by Kris Kristofferson is remarkable, thanks!!

    Cheers Rich

  77. Makia November 22, 2006 7:00 am

    Gawdammit zeph, i wish wisdom paid my freaking bills. ;-)

    but seriously, i do

  78. Dr Jane Karlsson November 22, 2006 7:13 am

    kastor #46, your article by Nyquist says the following:

    ‘The West will do nothing about the Iranian bomb. The Americans will leave Iraq, and America’s cities will be attacked by nuclear weapons. In this sequence one failure leads to another. Weakness, lack of resolve, stupidity and incompetence add up to defeat.’

    Do you agree with this?

  79. zephyr November 22, 2006 7:31 am

    I also watched Spike Lee’s documentary on Katrina and New Orleans last night. It’s very long….I made it through about 3 and 1/2 hours. Really eye-opening. I mean, we all knew it was bad, but this makes it so much more personal. And the tragedy continues for so many people.

    And it re-emphasizes how incredibly useless Bush, Cheney, Rice are. It’s beyond words the contempt I have for these people. My only wish is they will get what’s coming to them at some point in time. Anybody that can still support this administation in any way, shape or form is either as evil-hearted as they are, or they’re just dumb/naive beyond belief.

    As I have mentioned before, New Orleans was the last straw for my wife. She is 100% with me in believing how bad an imminent depression will be. What Rich says is true, make the best of today, because tomorrow may be a different matter. I keep repeating, take that trip you’ve always wanted to. I’m fortunate….I’ve seen most of the country and a good many other countries. My wife and I are going to Rome in January. It’s always in the back of my mind that this could be the last trip before all hell breaks lose. Kind of a sad way to look at things, but the roadsigns all point in the same direction. To ignore them would be….well…..maybe ignorance is bliss.

  80. zephyr November 22, 2006 7:44 am

    Thanks Dr Jane hadn’t read that link by Kastor but now that I have, Kastor, read this.


    Christ, Kastor!!! Like all we have is angel wings on our govt agencies. The CIA, I dare to say, probably has more blood on it’s hands than anyone. They just hide it better. What is that article about????? Some of it has merit, but little. Oh, poor little Israel, who will defend her? Please!

    Makia, you mean wisdom doesn’t pay the bills? Yikes, I better come up with another plan!

  81. Makia November 22, 2006 8:13 am

    Seriously, i feel like we all need to get together in person. Give eachother a couple of real hugs.

  82. Makia November 22, 2006 8:17 am

    The CIA is intricately linked to the CFR. “If” we have a shadow gov’t, it IS the CIA.

  83. kastor November 22, 2006 8:19 am

    78, Dr. Jane, I believe that Putin’s government is behind a lot more of the turmoil in the world than we would like to believe when we see Bush and Putin standing together in their Chinese garb. I believe Putin and Kim style communism is just as much of a threat as radical islam. I believe the mistakes of American foreign policy were topped off by the mother of all mistakes when we invaded Iraq with the same half hearted way we waged war in Southeast Asia. I believe there is a lot more concrete evidence to support Nyquist’s paper than there is to support that video on the so-called 9-11 conspiracy I just watched. There is no doubt that such conspiracies are possible however, I have seen nothing more than a bunch of sound bites, opinions and statements from people in a state of dis-belief, all strung together to make one big illusory correlation. If 9-11 was an inside job, there needs to be real evidence, which I have not yet seen.

  84. zephyr November 22, 2006 8:29 am

    Hey, I’m going to try sending an e-mail you again, Makia….watch for it.

    Staying on the doom and gloom theme, I went to the supermarket last night and bought some fish. Flounder was $11/lb!! I asked the guy at the counter what was up and he said overfishing and that the general public really had no idea how bad it’s getting in our oceans. Fishermen have to go out further and further, and their getting less and less yield. And I love fish, so this pisses me off. As long as there are enough fish until I die, it’s OK though. Might at well adopt the American spirit! It’s all about me, me , me!!!

    I like that idea of getting together…..call it a conference and write it off. Actually, Michael, it really is a good idea. Find a great local….Orlando, New Orleans, Vegas, Australia (haven’t been there….would love to write that trip off :-) ) As far as the group hug goes, well…………….err…………ummmm…………that’s a great idea, too.

    HAPPY THANKSGIVING ALL!!! Dr. Jane, happy whatever else might be equivalent in Jolly Old England. Believe it or not, that’s somewhere I haven’t been either and really want to go. Dr. Jane, how close are you to London?

  85. Makia November 22, 2006 8:49 am

    zepher, my computer at home is effed, and i can’t access my personal e-mail at work. Big bummer yo. I did respond to your first e-mail though. I dunno what happened. Maybe we can think of something, but i don’t want to give out my work e-mail on the thread. I can e-mail you from work, then you’ll have it, but i’ll have to get your email somehow. Lemme know if you can think of anything.

    p.s. if i had the money to go to FL, i’d buy a new PC. Well, i’ll try to fix my pc, i might just need a new power supply, but it also might be MotherBoard. I still don’t have money to go to FL, so basically everybody’s gonna hafta come to Philly! Birthplace of the country! Party at Pat’s! WOOOOOOOOOOO!

    uhhhhhh, yeah.

    p.p.s. England: bad food, worse weather

  86. zephyr November 22, 2006 8:55 am

    Kastor, the only country I see making pre-emptive strikes at perceived threats around the world is the US. We are the country starting wars, and threatening to start more. I guess you’re a warmonger? In your way of thinking, if I suspect my neighbor MIGHT break into my house, I have the right to go over and kick his ass just for the hell of it, you know, in case he was planning a burglary.

    As far as real evidence, how is it that thermate was found on steel recovered from the towers at ground zero. Did you know that thermate is an explosive used exclusively for controlled demolitions? How would you propose that substance was found there then? Extreme coincidence? That’s just one example but you asked for real evidence.

    C’mon, I dying to hear you explain that away.

  87. zephyr November 22, 2006 8:58 am

    Makia, go thru Michael for my e-mail. That’s how Larry and I got each others e-mail. Michael, you have my blessing to send Makia my e-mail. So, you live in Philly….so sorry to hear that….

  88. Dr Jane Karlsson November 22, 2006 9:20 am

    kastor, thanks. The problem about 911 is that it needs a lot of time reading and thinking to get all the information you need. I have a close friend who thinks bin Laden did 911, and we don’t talk about it. I have just said to her ‘you are going to get a very nasty shock’, and I leave it at that. This is the question, do you like shocks or not?

    You believe radical Islam is a threat? We must part company on this. There is currently a Muslim witch-hunt in the UK very similar to the communist witch-hunt your country had many years ago, and I am watching Muslims being locked up and tortured who have done nothing.

    I have a horrible suspicion that even the ones who have done something are actually victims of mind-control programming whose handlers were trained and even possibly paid by the CIA. After all, bin Laden was or is a CIA ‘asset’, and he comes from a wealthy family, where one must always suspect mind control. I come from a poor branch of a wealthy family myself, and I have some personal experience of these things.

  89. muleskinner November 22, 2006 9:22 am

    Who made people laugh more, Fred Gwynne as Herman Munster on the Munsters tv show, or Lyndon B. Johnson, President of the United States?

    Who, between these two men, made a difference for the better in this world, Herman Munster or Lyndon Johnson?

    Quite an analogy, maybe somewhat absurd, but one made a difference that impacted you positively and one made a difference that impacted the world negatively.

    Herman Munster gets the nod, hands down.

  90. Makia November 22, 2006 10:01 am

    The thing is that the radical Muslims are a threat, but there’s just as much dis-information in those parts of the world as there is here. There aren’t _that_ many muslims (proportionately speaking) who are violent jihadists, but they are there and there are a lot of them. And if the US stopped what it was doing, well, we are all past the point of no return on that, but it wouldn’t get those people un-pissed off. And its not like the muslims who don’t support the jihadists, don’t “support” the jihadists. Its a tough situation for all of us. Its just like the soldiers in the US army, most of us would call them “ill-informed,” not “evil.”

    The truth will set you free.

  91. Sapiens November 22, 2006 10:27 am

    If you need a good laugh, check this out:


    episode one: the first flip

    Very funny clip about the madness in the Real Estate market.


  92. Darren November 22, 2006 11:41 am

    I do not understand to the smallest detail what is communism. I have heard in the past that Russia was a communist country & I have also heard that there has never been a communist country including Russia.

    I think capitilism would work better if everyone in the country were traders & there were no leaches. Perhaps h& scientists that understand how to cultivate truth could show us how, so all would be able to take responsibility for our selfs& become independent. Many might say individuals will find out on there own what is true but if one is not a good scientist no answer is given.

    might be a great way also i.e., Everyone working togeather to cultivate that which promotes long term happiness & destroying that which destroys it.

  93. Makia November 22, 2006 12:09 pm

    Iterdependant - that’s what the capitalistic and communistic ideologies both say is the goal.

    In my opinion, all of these problems are of a spiritual nature.

    To that end, this is why ThanksGiving is my absolute favorite holiday. To me Thankfulness is the great transformer. If you know why it is important to give thanks then all of your problems are already solved. Humans current deficet in thanks and surplus of mistrust is the core of why all ideaologies fail in practice. No structure can enforce that the people be thankful; yet that is the only true solution to any problem in the long term.

    But since the real issue is choice - choosing to be thankful or chooing to fail to see the pervasive interconnectness - the issue is spiritual, personal, and also a function of parenting. Happiness only comes from within. Choice only comes from within. Failing to see this will result in eventual failure of all external endeavors.

    That is the real truth that will set you free,

    regardless of any other knowledge, theories, or opinions. Since i know the value (and the function, which is another step) of thankfulness, i don’t need to be right, i don’t need to predict the future, and i don’t need anyone to agree with me on anything. Of course some people agree with me on some things, but that isn’t important to me (even though it’s nice). Happiness truly comes from within, and can’t be accessed without true thankfulness, which can’t be accessed for any meaningful amount of time without recognition of the importance of personal choice, which comes from within.

  94. kastor November 22, 2006 12:21 pm

    86, Zephyr, I think if you re-read my statement you will read where I thought invading Iraq was the topper in a long line of American foreign policy failures. On the flip side, if the administration’s invasion had turned out successfully, very few would be questioning it now. It is the light of failure that brings out the detractors after the fact by the dozen. As for the allegation of thermite, I have only heard someone say it was so, I have not seen or heard about any hard evidence that this was the case. 88, Dr. Jane, Radical Islam is a threat to the west and those who perpetuate radical Islam have made no secret about it. They have told us in detail exactly what they want to do to us. 92, Darren, Communism seems to be an ideology that calls for the people to be self sufficient in the name of the common good, it is a share the wealth for the sake of all system, it does not believe in any concentration of wealth in companies or people. Everybody owns everything. No private property, everything belongs to the state, HOWEVER, it fast turns out to be a lie as the state turns out to be those in power. They have cart blanche to call the shots for the country and steal it blind. Many will say, “sounds like you are describing the USA or Britain”. Not so. People under communist rule do not have the power of choice, the power to travel where they wish. They do not have the power to think for themselves. They certainly do not have the power to write against their leaders as we have on this forum. In the end, any system boils down to, do the people have the freedom to choose or must they only choose what the states leaders allow them to? Like the man once said:”This world is a will to power, and nothing else.”

  95. surfdude November 22, 2006 12:51 pm

    Hey makia - I used to hate Philly until one of my newborn children was flown to Childrens Hospital to have open heart surgury immediately after he was born - saved his life - He is fine now - great hospital CHOP. and I stayed in Philly for two weeks, met some really nice people.

    About everyone getting together idea - that would really be nice. But what would everyone do? I guess the hugs would be OK for in the beginning, but does anyone have some ideas for an agenda?

  96. surfdude November 22, 2006 1:11 pm

    Oh wait - if we were all in one place maybe the PTB would put a hit on the place and make it look like a random act of violence. Too paranoid?

  97. Makia November 22, 2006 1:30 pm

    I thought of that surfdude. It would be much less conspicuos and probably just as easy for them to take us out at our homes. Bill Cooper used to advise “patriots” to never be at home or a family’s home on holidays, especially Thanksgiving!

    Happy ThanksGiving All!

  98. Makia November 22, 2006 1:31 pm

    I’d start working on an agenda, but i’m a follower, not a leader. ;)

  99. Administrator November 22, 2006 3:07 pm

    Hi Kastor, and anyone else who is interested in thermite/thermate used in the 9/11 demolition.

    There is not a lot of evidence, since all the steel from the building was immediately carted off, shipped to China and melted down.

    However, there are some telltale signs. Here is a video of Dr. Stephen Jones, who has a PhD in physics and was a professor at BYU until the school forced him out for speaking out about 911.
    He describes the evidence in this video (click)
    . It is only about 2 minutes long.

    For a more comprehensive look, see this video: The Controlled Demolitions of 911


    p.s. Happy Thanksgiving to all!

  100. Phil November 22, 2006 6:43 pm

    Lou Dobbs and Kieth Olbermann are two of the best programs for fighting for our rights.


  101. kastor November 22, 2006 8:05 pm

    99, Watched the video with the professor speaking about thermite use. It is a more compelling and specific piece of support for the conspiracy theory however it is no where near enough. When an airliner crashes, there are many dynamics that come to play that only an experienced accident investigation team can understand. Burning jet fuel is the ignition source for many hotter subsequent fires, often long smoldering fires due to exotic materials used in aviation, not to mention the hundreds of tons of burnables in the building. I have been on many accident and incident investigations where I have found molten metal from fires initiated from buring jet fuel. An over temping jet engine often melts turbine blades which are made from many alloys, melted from overtemping due to loss of fuel scheduling withing the engine. Jet fuel can melt certain steels under the right conditions. In a crash such as 9-11, there are so many elements involved in resulting fires between the details of the aircraft, the building and all of its systems that such an air-arcing type of reaction is not inconceivable to result from something within the total scope of the inferno. Burning jet fuel combined with many of the elements that could be found in such an accident could result in the kind of reaction seen in the video. While I am sure the professor is convinced in his conclusion, it is the kind of determination that frequently gets inexperienced investigators into trouble when they do not access the entire base of evidence. This is still not smoking gun evidence, it is only a small piece that can be over blown in importance, kind of like when Johnny Cochran told OJ’s jury, “If the glove don’t fit, you must acquit.” As for the famous photo of the ‘core steel pillar’ that appears to have been cut at an angle with an air - arcing tool, I have also been told that it indeed was cut by a technician with an air-arcing tool,,, during the cleanup and rescue period after the terrorist act. I’m always willing to see any more compelling evidence.

  102. zephyr November 22, 2006 8:21 pm

    Kastor, do not take this as advocating communism…and here’s the big but……BUT, at least when their society collapsed in the early ’90’s (and the people did hit rock bottom) people were allowed to stay in their homes. Having a roof over your head was never an issue. Now, what do you forsee here when people fail to meet mortgage payments? What would happen in a depression? I think we already have that answer from what happened in the 30’s. There will be no compassion from corporate America.

    And what’s this I’ve only heard people say there was thermate? What, do you need to hold it in your hand? And by your own criteria, why do you readily believe the “official story”? Alot of that has no “hard evidence” either.

    And Michael, you’re wrong, some steel was saved and used in makeshift memorials for 911. That’s where the samples were taken from!

  103. kastor November 22, 2006 8:30 pm

    Communism did not collapse in the early ninties. The evidence for the official story is overwhelming compared to the evidence for an inside job, though I don’t think I have said anywhere in this thread that I readily believe the official story. What I have said is that the inside job theory has no concrete evidence that can hold the theory up. Someone may come along with some evidence but I have not seen it yet. I answered my thinking on the thermite conclusion in my previous post. It is not conclusive, except by opinion. That is not good enough when allegations of a conspiracy are being publicly called the truth when it should only be relegated to a discussion stage.

  104. larry November 22, 2006 9:17 pm

    63 Andrew…first let me say that these have been the best postings ever…fabulous stuff…i have learned more on this thread than seems possible!…Andrew,your post riveted me…i always was confused why Dobbs hit on all cylinders yet i could never remember outrage over the evidence that 9/11 was rigged,,,major evidence,,,yet,that gnowing ommission just never came to light till your post…now i am so overwhelmed…Why is no enlightened main media touching the 9/11 fiasco…prisonplanet??they know their lives would become like hunted dogs?…if that is true?…then i feel dread,deep dread,the war is over and the politicians have effectively muzzled all of society…Dobbs becomes an almost honest shill…expect no more and be happy for the warped truth…note:11/22/06 CNN had something about 9/11 being rigged as taught by a university professor in i believe minnesota?or wisconsin?sorry all missed most of it…best holidays

  105. zephyr November 22, 2006 9:43 pm

    Well, something happened in Russia in the early 90’s and according to people that lived thru it, it was a devastating time for the populace. Or are first hand accounts by russians living there at that time not sufficient evidence for you!

  106. kastor November 22, 2006 10:04 pm

    105, Zephyr, Your approach is narrow and you seem to focus on one thing and make broad assumptions. First of all, the USSR collapsed not communism in Russia. Second of all, The USSR and Mother Russia were not and are not the exclusive bastions of communism in this world. Communism is alive and well in Russia and many other places, not the least of which are the PRC, DPRK and some choice Latin American and African regimes.

  107. surfdude November 22, 2006 10:18 pm

    I don’t buy the official report - smells like *&%$*^@ to me.

  108. bp November 23, 2006 6:13 am

    makia #93, well said makia - i know for myself I sometimes get too harried to stop and Feel gratitude, appreciation, thankfulness

    peace be with you

  109. zephyr November 23, 2006 6:27 am

    Of Course, Communism isn’t completely dead around the world, I think most people with a clue know that. After all, That’s why we still can’t smoke Cuban Cigars (which pisses me off). It did take a major hit in Russia, but it didn’t die completely because all the old leaders are still around.

    Maybe they would have morphed completely from Communism if we had given them a little more help. Instead, as the wall fell and the coup occurred we cheered….and then went back to TV. Except the corporations, out real govt. Their idea of spreading Democracy is bringing McDonalds, Home Depots, Wal-marts and the like to new markets. They could give a fuck about the average Russian who actually had it much worse after their govt fell, Gee, Sound like some country in the Middle East we Know??

    The problem is the US constantly wages war under false pretenses for it’s own purposes, rapes the land and it’s peoples and then moves on. Any surprise then that most of them want nothing to do with capitalism? Sure, the other systems seem to suck but that’s their choice. Look at Palestine, Nicaragua, Venezuela. It’s their choice! We just don’t like it because the leaders the people chose won’t kneel and suck America’s dick like they’re supposed to!!! So we call the new leaders “unstable”.

    One last thing, don’t tell me Communism didn’t fall in Eastern Europe. Now those people were overjoyed the Soviets tentacles were chopped off. Remember (can’t spell his name) the leader from Hungary, I believe. The people practically dragged him from his home and had him put to death for crimes against his own people.

    Lord, I long for the day I see the same thing happen with this current regime here in the Good Ol’ USA!! Happy Thanksgiving All!!! If I offended anyone with the blow the US govt reference. I’m Sorry…..but it was an appropriate description.

  110. Dr Jane Karlsson November 23, 2006 6:43 am

    zephyr, I am only 50 miles from London. But it’s true, England has awful weather and worse food.

    kastor, what evidence do you have that people under communist rule ‘do not have the power to think for themselves’?

  111. larry November 23, 2006 8:16 am

    Lou DOBBS we will allow you to comfort the public with your outrage as long as you never mention on air that the good US government is in the buisness of killing americans using domestic terrorism.INTERNAL MEMO:CIA

  112. Russell November 23, 2006 8:49 am


    This is my first time viewing your site, and from reading the comments section for this article, your readers appear to be well informed, thinking individuals. The title of your article “hit the nail on the head”, INDIFFERENT. Whether it’s twelve million children that are dieing each year in the third world countries because of starvation and/or disease, genocide in Dafor, Israel’s occupation of Palestine, or the hundreds of thousand of Iraqis who have died because of the “War on Terror”, most people refuse to investigate any of these issues by reading books or searching the web. The only information they receive is via main stream media entertainment. I’m sorry, I meant the news.
    The implosion of WTC Building 7 is the “key”. Once this knowledge becomes mainstream, along with the call for more troops to fight the “War on Terror” via the draft, many of the anesthetized “blue pill” walking dead will be awakened. Will we then start asking the same question the rest of the world is already asking, “Why if the WTC event was self inflicted. Are we at war in Iraq?” It should be quite obvious to everyone by now that it is going to take a movement from the “grass roots” up to make any difference. Most Americans believe that they have done their patriotic duty by voting, and proudly wear the red, white, and blue stickers that state “I VOTED”. Many of the same people refuse to research any of the problems in the world, especially WTC Building 7. President Kennedy once stated that “only in a well informed population can true democracy survive”. Just ask former congresswoman Cynthia McKinney how the current electoral process is working. To my knowledge, she was the only person in congress that challenged the events surrounding 911 and why we are at war in Iraq. Ms. McKinney, William Rodriguez, and Dr. Steven Jones are just a few of the courageous Americans that have risked it all so the rest of us can be informed.
    In the end, those of us who have chosen to take the “red pill” have even a greater responsibility to inform those around us that we meet during our daily lives. Mark Mathabane, in a speech titled Educating Global Citizens and Leaders (www.isacs.org), states: “Without empathy there is no right or wrong, just expediency, no future, just the moment, no soul, just the body, no God even, just Man – solitary, selfish, scared and self-destructive.”
    Indifference is not possible if one has empathy. Many people may be incapable of learning to have empathy for their fellow man. No matter how much pain and suffering is inflicted upon them, many just get mad instead of taking the time to reflect on why they were victims(?) of the injustice. Just the title of Dr. Noam Chomsky’s book “Hegemony or Survival” states the challenge. This is “The Test” and our very survival may depend upon our choices that we make in the very near future.
    P.S. As it says at the top of the web page, “Turn off the TV and Think”.

  113. Buddy November 23, 2006 9:17 am

    There is a facetious addition to the ten commandments (to be the 11th)that thou shall not organize. I suppose that such could be modified to say thou shall not politically organize, but the content is important.
    The big problem is that there are so called “elites” whose objectives include more power which our union of 50 states certainly provides. When that fact is considered, it become obvious that seccession is a first step toward middle class freedom. Consider a USA (and Canada) that are perhaps 9 nations, based upon culture and industry. Then there will be a chance for us middle class people. Until then, it’s the same old story.

  114. kastor November 23, 2006 9:26 am

    109, it’s a figure of speech intended to show how difficult it is for people under communist rule to make their thoughts public. Can you dig it? However The DPRK has done a fair job of brain washing a population. not that they can’t think for themselves but when indoctrinated from childhood to think in a certain way, within a certain set of beliefs, it becomes difficult to see and judge for ones self without extreme bias. Just as some never ending conspiracy groupies witness an occurance or two on internet video and run with the knowledge like the boy who cried wolf, thinking they have solved some mystery. I prefer to judge facts as they become known and proven to be real rather than infer strange conspiracies across the globe that would need to involve hundreds if not thousands of people to pull off. Perhaps modern television is a bad influence on many adults as well as children. The internet would seem to rank right up there with television these days.

  115. muleskinner November 23, 2006 11:05 am

    There is no ‘I’ in team.

    ‘A team effort is a group of people doing as I say’

  116. muleskinner November 23, 2006 11:24 am

    Give Thanks

    illegal sweatshops for a private Corporation called: “UNICOR”

    Who owns these illegal sweatshops
    employing tens of thousands of prisoners??

    Nobody seems to know – “A Mystery”

    1. It is rumored that current and past high ranking politicians are heavily involved in this “every private” corporation; called UNICOR, paying prisoners peanuts to work in their slave labor factories.”

    2. It was only a few years ago (legislature) representatives of our Government; were condemning US corporations in foreign countries for operating sweatshops. Our Government officials were closing down sweatshops in California bellowing!!Slave labor!! In the United States?? Close them down! Put the operators in prison. And they did.

    3. All the time these same legislatures are allowing the United States Government to operate slave labor sweatshops; for the rich and powerful people; so they can make more money from slave labor prisoners.

    Does anyone see anything wrong with that thinking??

    4. Recently, a bill was introduced in Congress to increase the mandatory hours each slave labor prisoner must work. The increase was; each “slave” would be forced to work 50 hours per week before the slave could receive overtime.

    5. Let’s see : a slave for UNICOR currently starts out at $37.00 per month for 160 hours per month. The new bill before the legislature, which has well over 100 sponsors would increase the average monthly hours from 160 to 200 hours per month. Everyone citizen should find out the name of each politician that has sponsored such an “illegal” inhumane bill.

    6. We will have all the names shortly and post them on this web link .

    7. Currently these new slave prisoner are making 24 cents an hour for 160 hours a month. The new proposed law, would allow this private corporation “UNICOR”; to continue to pay their slaves at 24 cents per hour for 200 hours a month before they would have to pay time and a half, overtime.
    Let’s see So! The slave laborer is now going to receive 24 cents an hour for the first 200 hours he works and 36 cents an hour for the second 200 he works per month.

    That seems “fair” to our “legislators”.

    There are over 100 sponsors

    Total! Lawless! Authority!

    8. The BOP “confiscates” half the money that is paid to each slave laborer; if the humaneFederal judge imposed a fine against an indigent prisoner; when he sentenced him.

    9. Let’s see : the laws passed by our legislators are only in effect for the citizens of the United States, that work outside the employment of the Government. Government employees are immune from all laws passed by our legislators in the US Congress.
    Total Lawless Authority

    10. The law is clear . It is illegal to operate slave sweatshops within the United States. Slave labor sweatshops have been condemned by our legislators as inhumane when operated in foreign countries.

    Knowing all this, our elected officials
    slave labor – approved by our elected officials.
    There is something seriously wrong with this mentality.

    11. If these same people were running these “exact” same slave labor sweatshops; outside US Government protected land; they would be placed in the prisons they are currently operating out of.

    12. Who “pays” those peopleto run these “sweatshops”??
    The United States Government

    WAIT A MINUTE: there is something seriously wrong in Denmark!! The United States Government is paying its employees to operate and mange illegal sweatshops for a private company.

    Every private corporation, or company in the US
    should be outraged

    Every citizen of the United States should be OUTRAGED

    13. It appears: the “Top Gun” at “UNICOR” in Yazoo Prison in Yazoo, Mississippi is also the “Top Gun” in the operations of the prison itself.

    14. At Yazoo, Mr. Holland is “Top Gun” employing around 500 prisoners. Most recently; his slave sweatshop employees were tired of eating the horrible food served them. They were also tired of getting food poisoning. They exercised their option one day, and chose not to eat the horrible, sickening food served for lunch.

    15. BOP policy does not force prisoners to eat BOP food. Prisoners that can afford it; may purchase their food at the prison commissary. It appears the Top Gun immediately retaliated locking the prisoners out of their housing units; so they could not reach their own food they purchased at slave wages. It also clearly appears, that BOP Regional Director R. E. Holt was involved with the premeditated retaliatory act.

    16. It also appears, Top Gun (Mr. Holland) and Mr. R. E. Holt got their heads together, confiscated all the slave laborers personal food that each slave has paid for with their own slave wages. Then in the end; fired some, cut wages even more; and transferred slave laborers to other punishment US prisons.

    17. An exact detailed accounting of what transpired is located on this site under The Second Needless Torture Lockdown.

    It is illegal – unconstitutional

  117. kastor November 23, 2006 11:38 am

    UNICOR is no big secret. They manufacture everything from office furniture to electrical harnesses used in various aircraft. I think if you talked to the prisoners engaged in these activities you would find the majority of them like it as it keeps them busy and actually ends up giving many of them useful skills they can use on the outside. It is no secretly operated, hidden government conspiratorial secret. It is a useful, openly known activity in the lives of those who are incarcerated. It is by no means a new concept. prison farms have grown crops for sale in the market place for decades. Would you have prisoners do nothing but lay around on their bunks all day except for chow, shower and recreation time? Do you think that would give any of them a chance to possibly become more productive members of society when they get out? If UNICOR was terminated today then the first thing people on the left would be screaming for are programs to give prisoners skills they can become productive with, in the name of being reformed. Then when it is done people on the left who continually look for conspiracies will scream again, as you are, that it is illegal, unconstitutional and it treats the prisoners like slaves, (even though they get paid and are living on the government dime after commiting crimes against society). No one and no government program can ever win with conspiracy hunters.

  118. muleskinner November 23, 2006 1:09 pm

    The inmates at Dachau and Auschwitz would probably be inclined to disagree with your pollyannish ‘assessment’ of US prison industries.

    I do not disagree with prisoners working to make good use of their time spent behind bars.

    However, I tend to be disagreeable when the issue of who is there is examined.

    It seems to make no sense whatsoever to have ’sex offenders’ living in neighborhoods across the US of A, while the prisons are bursting at the seams with inmates that pose much less risk than a sex offender. Some shouldn’t be there at all.

  119. kastor November 23, 2006 2:06 pm

    So you are saying that the modern U.S prison system where UNICOR is used as a reformatory tool is comparable to the Nazi death camps of WWII? That comparison doesn’t wash with reality. Then in the next sentence you agree that prisoners working is a good thing? Who the justice system ends up sending to prison is an entriely different subject. Sorry but your logic does not flow very well at all. Pick a side and stand for it.

  120. kastor November 23, 2006 3:38 pm
  121. muleskinner November 23, 2006 8:23 pm

    Kastor, you’re not listening with your good ear. People worked at those concentration camps, hence the words at the gates of Dachau, “Arbeit Macht Frei.”

    The US prison system has over two million people behind bars. It is a pogrom like none other. They aren’t ‘death camps,’ but they’re ruining lives.

    According to data released by the statistics bureau of the U.S. Justice Department on Oct. 23, 2005, the total number of people incarcerated in the United States was 2,267,787 at the end of 2004. This meant an incarceration rate of 724 per 100,000, up 18 percent from ten years earlier and 25 percent higher than that of any other nation.

    There was another ‘holocaust’ that was located here in the United States in the early 1800’s. It was called the ‘Indian Removal Act of 1830.’ Native Americans marched along the Trail of Tears over to the Oklahoma Territory, the Pale. The US government stole another 800,000 acres of land when they did that one. Andrew Jackson turned a blind eye to the suffering.

    The pot calling the kettle black.

  122. larry November 23, 2006 8:48 pm

    LOVE it!..the train of conciousness has shifted beyond detention camps to concentration camps…the logical and ultimate,mother of all, far right political shifts…ya just can’t get government to go against you harder than concentration camping you….this is fabulous….we have now established the end range of depravity that our lovely elites could lead us…if we are bad kids and are terrorists and are habious corpless…we know how us bad kids will be repremanded by big daddy government…say no to concentration camps….make all future elected officials sign an afidavid that they are opposed to concentration camps…have what heck one of em is defined in detail…policy should then be that any official voting in favor of putting us in camps immediately loses their elected position and must return all lobbyiest funding recieved while in power….this may just work,,,,it has possibilities written all over it….great grandpa BUSH, for example, could no longer,under my policy,become an elected official…he made a lot of money organizing and building those camps in nazi germany,way back when….i also feel that ex-Halliburton officers should no longer be elgible for vice-president or even president…they know too much about how to build detention camps and well i find that of concern…lalalalalala…hard to really trust in this carnivorous so called culture…kind of makes ya wish the public education system had’nt cut back so drastically on the study of humanities and music…gosh,how novel,imagine students studying the enormous contributions of people in peaceful creative pursuits…woowoo,would almost make you believe in people as more than just fallen angles and narciscists and such,huh….the human condition,is it more than war?is it more than hustling for others resources?is it more or has it become less?has it been lowered to resource cultivation…on many levels me thinks sadly so….all this strife….to me it boils down to survival urges..those primitive beastly reptilian hard wired insticts…basic insticts….combined with resource shortages is ultimately a cocktail for fireworks…too many with too little===conflict….capitalism needs more markets..it needs more people…ultimately it’s need to expand and engorge chokes it…it flails around for a bit of time…it grabs it’s hands away from it’s throat a few times and gasps…but it passes out…it must hope to inhale…if the choke hold became too exuberant it was a death grip…it will only be known post mortum….i hate yping

  123. zephyr November 23, 2006 8:55 pm

    Kastor, what’s your deal? You have some whacked ideas, you come across as very narrow-minded and condescending.

    You know, we have nothing to fear from Hugo Chavez. Were you aware that both he and Castro offered help for Katrina victims and were ready to mobilize to assist, but Bush and Co. turned them down. Guess it would have been too embarrassing, better to let people suffer and die. Good thing Cheney was fishing in Montana and Condi was shopping for shoes in NY while it all went down. And Bush? I suppose he just spent those few days exploring his rectum with his head again.

    And then Momma Bush has the nerve to say some of the victims were actually better off in the Houston Astrodome, they never had it so good.

    And calling the good people that contribute to these threads conspiracy hunters is just beyond ignorant. They are educated and see beyond the smoke screens thrown up by our horseshit govt and the corporate elites that really run things. I guess it is useful to have people such as yourself to represent the other side, as a reminder to all of us of the concrete-headedness we still face in the US populace, the people that actually believe the bold faced lies, the people that feel the need to make up villians throughout the world that must be defeated in your comic book world life. People like that who make assumptions about other cultures when they’ve never been outside the country, and many times they’ve never been outside they’re own state. Oh, but they know all they need to know because “I watch TV and George Bush tells me these people are bad”.

    In other words, Kastor, your opinions are steeped in make-believe.

  124. larry November 23, 2006 9:29 pm

    121 zephyr…ease up…remember?…the government is lying to us…remember,they are good at it,they are pros at it,they are full time at it,they are oranized at it…it took me years to realize how good these dawgs are at it…9/11…that is the first HUGE (see pearl harbor)government go at it since after the internet…do ya think we got a better than even shot at rippin this one open quicker than 50 years later..i do!..it has started..why do you think BUSHY wrote in his exemption from war crimes in passed upon legislation…yes and LOU DOBBS knows that one too and ain’t been OUTRAGED about it either…he is a zoomer missle..an appeaser of the more enlightened masses…an on balance secrete weapon of the mass media for the less dim wited…he is a grand and glorious highly paid tool…he may get a border fence built for us at mexico..translation ,he is a warrior for the obvious…i die a little more

  125. larry November 23, 2006 10:40 pm

    one of those obvious not asked questions…1)who flew the planes into WTC…2)if islamist radicles did..who served as the intermediaries to organize the government and the ‘terrorists’ time skeduals…3)is this an example of …how desperately the government needs independent criminals for hiring out tough jobs (sic)only criminals kill civilians using premeditated methods…eg,pre-rigging WTC for detonation…they take the money and run…it is their dependable reliable credo and M.O….mobsters are reliable for silence…government can count on non other than criminals to do the real dirty filthy stuff…once again,the government pulled favors from their favorite protected criminal families…yep…a mob job…the NYC boys are very reeliable at this stuff….seasoned and practiced…every government needs the mob on their side…they seem to see eye to eye…kapish…hehheehhehheh.thats dick cheney,laughing…he wishes he would have been born Italian so as he could a been an important mob boss…oops,forgot ,he is an important mob boss..just not the DOM…oh well,he compensates and gets to shotgun friends and cool stuff like that..i feel your pain Dick…you really wanted to run the family didn’t ya…sorry,really sorry…really,feel your pain

  126. Darren November 23, 2006 10:41 pm

    Kastor Thank you for input

    Great post you had regarding being thankfull I would like to add the time Iam thankfull & not thankfull
    Iam thankfull for not always being thankfull. If I cultivate positive futures @ all degrees of trend Iam thankfull for the present. future becomes present, present becomes past. If one was always thankfull would they look for potential to be a productive hero & make a positive differance ?

    Iam not thankfull & do not embrace invalid theories in my mind & replace them with valid theories which Iam thankfull for. That which Iam thankfull for I create by destroying the opposite

    Man can not live moment to moment & survive. Man must achieve goals & truth is needed (valid theories) to achieve these goals. Man the think tank happiness hinges on truth. Trying to achieve a goal based on invalid theories causes pain i.e., a sea of self doubt & confusion. Happiness is found in truth.
    the first rule of life is to stop from dying. Truth is needed for survival i.e., man can achieve goals through valid theories. We seek happiness for the spiecies to survive.

    Does one really have the choice to willfully embrace the effort & responsibility of a volitional consciousness?

    Everything that exsists has a clear cut nature & idenity. Mans mind is not subnatural or even super natural but has a clear cut idenity & nature & like everything else must act in accordance with its nature. An individual can no act against there nature which keeps on changing with in the laws that govern. No thought sits in a vacume by its self. Every thought leads to another thought & because we all have differnt experiances & knowledge just like no 2 snow flakes are probably not a like, probably no ones thoughts that leads to another thoughts are exactly the same through out ones life would be simular to another. Does one really have a choice how they act or are they guided by “destiny” for a lack of a better word? The chain reaction as one thought that leads to another thought as well as action that is already in place with in exsitance which exsists determines the thoughts & actions of each man & the masses.

  127. Dr Jane Karlsson November 24, 2006 4:39 am

    kastor #113: let me explain to you how the brain works.

    Information coming in is often apparently inconsistent, and this creates ‘cognitive dissonance’ which feels bad. The bad feeling motivates you to seek further facts which resolve the inconsistency, and then the brain’s ‘reward system’ is activated, releasing endorphins (natural opiates) which make you feel good.

    Next time there in inconsistent information, you remember how good it felt to resolve the problem, and you are more motivated to follow the cognitive dissonance instead of escaping from it.

    If you want to suppress free thought, all you have to do is find a way to stop the brain producing endorphins. Endorphin synthesis requires copper, and endorphin breakdown requires zinc. So you make people eat a diet high in zinc and low in copper.

    This is the Western meat-and-white-bread diet.

    One way to escape from cognitive dissonance is through heroin addiction, and another is to make other people experience the unpleasantness instead. For instance, you might be presented with incontrovertible proof that 911 was an inside job, but you would continue to claim you had seen no hard evidence.

    So you see, this can happen under any political system.

  128. zephyr November 24, 2006 5:45 am

    Wow, I vote to kick Dr Phil aka Useless Redneck off the airwaves and give Dr Jane her own talk show. Now, this lady really has useful info worth hearing. As always, thanks Dr Jane…..however, my guess is when you try to explain the truth to someone like that, the response you get will be them balling their fists, holding their breath, face turning red, violent shaking and steam coming out of their ears. Kind of like a cartoon charactor.

  129. zephyr November 24, 2006 6:06 am

    Dr Jane, I asked before, what are all the negative effects of zinc? Are there any positive effects. Because there is a marketing campaign in the US to take more zinc….could this be what you’re talking about?

  130. Makia November 24, 2006 6:07 am

    Wow Dr. Jane, i bet you have a lot of fun trying to explain that to people.

    Darren, i always say that real happiness and usefulness and wisdom comes from constantly being thankful for what you have - for what is - and at the same time finding and doing the things that you can do to make improvements. In other words, its an acknowledgement that you will never be completely “satisfied” except for those unpredictable and fleeting momments. Nonetheless, there is a high level awareness that things are as they are for a big reason - that the universe is more IN balance at all times than it is OUT of balance (well, lets narrow “universe” down to “the locality of Earth”). Even if - for instance in the extreme - i have a gun to my head - argueing with “God” and thinking that “i don’t deserve this” removes my ability to be thankful for what is, and a great amount of power i have to change the situation (in a positive way). On the other hand, i know if i am meant to die i will die, but i am thankful and aware and a sudden surge of violence runs through me and kills the man with the gun, then i have simultaneously been thankful and changed the world for the better through that power, but i was never “not thankful.”

    That is assuming that i am the “good guy” and i am the one to have survived, to which i say that since i am a thankful and good person to begin with, and i wouldn’t hold a gun to someone’s head out of ego, that i am assuming that i am the good guy in this instance. Or perhaps i am some nut suffering from cognitive dissonance and can’t see that i am actually a passive-agressive, destructive, violent, ego-maniac. No, actually i’m not that. Good thing, too.

  131. zephyr November 24, 2006 6:43 am

    Makia, got your e-mail, just haven’t responded yet.

  132. Makia November 24, 2006 6:49 am

    Sounds good zeph.

  133. Darren November 24, 2006 8:43 am

    Dr Jane

    125 interesting post. “Next time there is inconsistant information, you remember how good it felt to resolve the problem.”

    From experience I have learned there is a time & not a time to solve a problem. Only if I can retain the frame of referance (reality)& the means reason necessary to solve it will I attempt to solve it.Instead of looking for answers to find the answer I will cultivate the best question I can think of. Of course time & energy are in limited supply & it is best to use wisely & the problems that I look to solve are based on my value system. Mans highest value would it not have to be life to keep the spiecies alive? I use my self as an example for often we can see our self in others.

  134. Richard Allen November 24, 2006 9:12 am

    We should all call Lou Dobbs and demand he answer this question:

    Why Did CNN get rid of its unions after 9/11?

    9/11 cost CNN tons of overtime and penalty pay for all the personnel who worked non stop to cover the event.

    The only 2 CNN cities that were still unionized was DC and NY.

    Why did CNN cut its staff in 1/2 and almost ALL the cuts were people who were over 40 years old?

    Why has nobody dared to question CNN’s union busting activities?

    Oh where is Michael Moore when we need him?

  135. Makia November 24, 2006 9:22 am

    Darren, i do beleive that you and i are birds of the same song.

  136. kastor November 24, 2006 11:15 am

    125, Dr. Jane, Most extreme case: When children are born and raised into a system where they are taught to hate and kill a certain race, nationality, religion or ethnic group, it is very difficult to make them see the world in a different light. It is, obviously, not impossible but; when they become adults and are suddenly faced with the truth of the world, they will either tend to revert to the safe zone of childhood or come to grips with the hard reality that their entire belief system is flawed. I said this was an extreme case, unfortunately there are many extreme cases in our world today. You can explain your brain theory to one of these brainwashed people as they pound your door in. As for my not seeing any concrete proof of a 9-11 conspiracy, and having people such as Zephyr resort to name calling, (must be reverting to his childhood safety zone), I would say that my mind seems to be more open to persuasion than many who are blindly calling it a conspiracy because someone else has told them it was. I would readily admit it was a conspiracy if anyone could show me real proof. I by no means put it past the world we live in today to form conspiracies around every corner. As for the administrations connection to a conspiracy, I seriously doubt it. They have shown to be much to incompetent to mount such an undertaking. As I have stated, no one has shown me any ‘proof’ of a 9-11 conspiracy by anyone other than radical muslims, that could not be explained away without very much difficulty. As for fearing Hugo Chavez, of course we don’t need to fear him as a single power, it is the alliances that are forming around the world we need to fear and take action against. Chavez, by the way, was a student of Kim Jong Il and his father’s communist philosophy of Juche’. Juche is being taught to young children in Venezuela.

  137. kastor November 24, 2006 12:03 pm

    125, I won’t dispute your zinc/copper rationale for the brains producing endorphines but seriously, are you intimating a western meat and bread diet conspiracy to suppress our brain endorphines? Why would ‘they’ want to suppress our brain endorphines? To make us mean and uptight? So Dr. Jane, are you alleging a food conspiracy, are ya? Hmmmmmmm, I feel the need for a ragingly huge piece of dark chocolate. I need to get high, maybe my liberal side will become dominant if I can just get the chocolate to work its magic,,,,, . The western diet, especially the USA western diet consists of just about any food type in the world. Even if it didn’t, we eat enough chocolate to make up for the apparent copper deficiency. Am I wrong about chocolate? I have been told by others that it is a source high in copper. Ahhhh, I feel the chocolate kicking in, I have to lay down now,,,,,,, so long and fight the power…..

  138. Makia November 24, 2006 12:21 pm

    I am personally not concerned about who bombed WTC. I haven’t seen any proof of anything, and i haven’t looked, and agree with kastor’s view that i don’t put it past any of the groups or alliances in the PTB past anything.

    It happened, they’re all bad people. Talk about the WTC? What about the fiat currency and fractional reserve banking that our whole society has become dependant on? I don’t care why we went to Iraq, it certainly didn’t have to turn out like _that_. How about the assassination of Bobby Kennedy? John Kennedy? I think its been said in this very thread, how many times can the public be smacked upside the head? If the gov’t was or wasn’t complicit in 9/11, what difference does it really make? If the american powers were complicit, then they are bad, if it was US policy over decades, they are bad. “They” (American PTB) want us to argure about who’s fault it was, weather it was them or not. They don’t really care if we blame them for something they didn’t do, it doesn’t really hurt them. They have been using the fog of war (against the middle class) to their advantage. Then we are mad or frustrated at eachother and not at them. We all need to focus and remain vigilant with ourselves. And you all know i say that as a reminder, not a criticism.

  139. Makia November 24, 2006 12:26 pm

    I don’t want to agree with this guy on many things, but he’s very thought out and makes some fantastic points. I don’t disagree with him, i’m just not as sure about his conclusions as he is. Anyways, read this stuff guys:

    The second most recent post “Christmas 2050″ and the most recent “Q&A interview with Jane”, theey’re both quite amazing.


  140. larry November 24, 2006 2:17 pm

    so no one buys the idea that organized crime was working in co-operation with psuedo-government agencies to orchestrate the 9/11 attack?….the government and the mob have a long history of a mutually beneficial tolerance…organized crime was long ago realized as a powerful ally to organized government…no opinions?…

  141. zephyr November 24, 2006 4:18 pm

    Kastor, you know, I had to go back and read my posts as well as your posts, because I know I can come across pretty strongly sometimes. It’s just me, with a mix of my heritage and my locale. I live in New England but I’m close enough to, and work in New York City enough, to have picked up its influences. Anyway, generally speaking, I think I try to be fair in listening to others viewpoints because I try to be respectful and I am aware I could learn something, because I readily acknowledge I don’t have all the answers. However,let’s face it, we all tend to think what we believe is right, otherwise we wouldn’t believe it. Basic sociology. Therefore, if what I believe is right and you disagree, then you must be wrong. Again, basic sociology. The more advanced personality tries to accept other’s views. The less advanced tends to have to insult other’s views to justify their own position, to bolster their insecurity.

    Anyway, I see a distinct pattern in your replies to people you disagree with. I can understand your replies to me to some extent, because I tend to be rather strong in my opinions, but when you are rude to someone like Dr Jane, who is obviously very intelligent and very polite when she disagrees….well, it does display a childish, belittling behaviour. I don’t really recall resorting to name calling. As a matter of fact, I recall saying in post 71 that you had given me a different way of looking at communisn. I don’t recall you ever being accepting of another’s views if they were contrary to your own. So, even though I don’t resort to name calling, I also do not suffer fools. And when someone is condescending in response to someone elses well thought out ideas like you do on a continual basis, that pisses me off, that’s when I come across abruptly and bluntly.

    Simply put, your attitude sucks. And your thoughts and opinions are not the stone tablets handed down from God. Dare I say it, you could actually learn from others.

    Truth goes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Then it is vehemently denied. Lastly, it is accepted for what it is, fact. You seem to be stuck in the 1-2 phase. I come across as strongly as I do because there is a sense of urgency in our times. Events are transpiring that will greatly effect the near future. At least, that is my belief.

    Perhaps it would benefit you to listen to others without your air of superiority.

  142. kastor November 24, 2006 8:04 pm

    139, Zephyr, You should re-read again. I entered this forum with an opinion, in the spirit of free speech. I believe you called me out a couple times, the terms narrow minded and condescending I recall however this forum and you have been beat to death so I guess you can find some other internet identity to try and do a tit for tat with, frankly I am tired and done with it. Good Luck. P.S. You tried to talk down to me, something to do with I would need to hold the thermite in my hand to believe it. My two points in this thread were communism isn’t dead, it is flourishing and I have seen no conclusive evidence to support a 9/11 conspiracy by the U.S government as has been alleged on this thread. As usually happens when someone such as yourself enters their emotions into the posts, you twist the argument away from those with opposing ideas and use personal inuendos to sway others that your opponent is somehow not up to speed ethically as yourself and must therefore be full of it. It is an old tactic and often used on these web forums. I don’t usually bite back but you are an exceptional idiot so I decided to play your stupid game for awhile. This forum seems to be attracting more people who act in your fashion, for all I know some of them are you coming in under another I.D. At any case I am done with BNB, good night and good luck.

  143. Darren November 24, 2006 9:19 pm

    Kastor Zepher

    I view both of you as my friend.I do not care who is right or who is wrong my primary focus is what is true,so I can understand concepts & there exact meaning.
    In the market place of free ideas it is good to debate so those exposed to those ideas can decide for them selfs what is true.


    Do not make the mistake when you leave this site your ideas & thoughts were not appriciated. I thank you for sharing them.


  144. khill November 25, 2006 9:35 am

    To me most people are fearful,ignorant creatures that have vast potential but are slaves.I can think of no greater wasted resource than the human brain.Take a moment and try to imagine a world that nourishes a childs natural desire to learn.A world that doesn’t fear knowledge and doesn’t seek to shape and control our beliefs.This is the core to all our problems.We must allow and encourage all humans to become masters of their emotions.We must learn to love learning.

  145. Makia November 25, 2006 9:59 am

    This arguement is quite upsetting. Kastor, i appreciate your posts and i wish you would not leave. You don’t have to get so upset with “conspiracy nuts,” just listen and disagree if you want. Many of your observations and opinions lend balance to the discussions. SOmeone needs to balance out my ramblings.

    Zephyr, same with you.

    We need variety and balance in here. I beleive that the vigor of the conversation comes from the variety of experiences, a caring for others, and an enjoyment of a certain lightheartedness.

    9/11 is a very emotional topic. Lets remember that. Who was behind that particular event is not important. If i’m a conspiracy theorist, i am a strange breed, eh? Look at the big picture. And you know, if there isn’t “men behind a cutain,” then we are still all in a heap of trouble. Maybe thinking that there is intelligence and motive behind the madness makes us feel like there is more we can do. But really, there is heaps of evidence, and “dots to connect” that suggest that much of the madness in our society, in our economy has a purpose and human motive behind it. It is not primarily to hurt people, but it does not avoid hurting people either. There are very powerful people who are manipulating in the name of greed and power, and they have a very cynical view of humanity, and these people are more or less public in their motives.

    I don’t know what to make of it, but seeing a few mostly caring and intelligent people argue about superficial things is disconcerting. None of us have anything to lose by debating with others in here, except fearing a bruised ego. I speak from my own experiences and mistakes. Much love all.

  146. Darren November 25, 2006 10:35 am

    The witches did not learn there lesson in the dark ages.
    We must hunt them & burn them @ the stake before plaque & disease is rampet in the streets.

    The communists that were once hidding behind every corner are in disguise as terrorists & are living in the middle east.

    Lou Dobbs is he the guy on TV that says we should wipe out Iran & Iraqe. ( I might be getting mixed up with someone else)

    He must be verry intellegent for he has his own TV show. Who am I to think & judge if its good enough for Lou its good enough for me.

    @ one time I sacrificed my intellectual independence by turning to Sacred Texts for the “truth” as revealed by the supernatural omniscience & infallibility of god.Today Iam a “secular supernaturalist” & have substituted others for god as a means to the truth.

    Is Dr Jane, Zepher, Darren & Kasto the same person who sets no limits when it comes to learning? Was this set up by a master mind to cultivate thinking on conspiracy theory?

    Many people today have become almost obsessive about the notion of “conspiracy theory.” The idea is that there is a number of small groups, or cabels, within our country (& the world) intent on altering the course of events by surreptitiously imposing thier view on the rest of us. For instance , the theory that JFK was assassinated by a coterie of blind zealots within the U.S military, secret service & Congress to save us from Kennedys brand of socialism. Another is the alleged plot involving the Rockefellers & the Trilateral Commission to form a World Goverment via secretive, skilled manipulation of the global economy. Shabby theories (or hypotheses) such as these enter the nations consciousness from time to time, but are very rarely supported by even a shred of solid evidence. Paranoia of the Out-of -control Leviathan may be cited as one cause of such phenomenon;fodder for spirited public debate,another.

    One conspiracy that has most certainly exsisted throughout mans history, & is still operative today, is the conspiracy without a head, “as designated by Ayn Rand. I refure to the fundamental force, or power, which has directed the course of mans history from time immemorial-without his conscious, explicit awareness. It is the power of ideas.

    While enescapable essential to the lives of individual men & nations in any era, the nature & extent of this power has proven profoundly elusive to most, especially today. The essential distinguishing characteristic of man as a biological species is his rational faculity. The rational faculity, unlike the instincts of animals, may be exercised only by an act of volition, i.e., a conscious choice to focus ones mind to posefully directed awareness of reality. Mans volitionally focused , cognitive contact with reality is mediated by means of concepts, or ideas. It is the number, quiality & consistancy of the ideas a man has intergrated into his mind that determine his success or failure, his happiness or suffering.

    The “conspiracy without a head’ is not masterminded by any one individual or group of individuals; after all, it is as old as man, & continues today without anyones conscious guidance. Specifically, it refures to the fact that the speciesman, i.e.,the intelligent rational aniamal, has been suffering a self-induced philosophic myopia, or blindness to the fact that he has allowed himself to drift will-lessly as pasive victum of false, irrational premises (ideas) since his early dawn. & today , when the unprecedented advancments of science have provided irrefutable evidence of the power of mans mind(his ability to gain knowledge through his ideas) over nature, such passive ignorance is least excusable.

  147. muleskinner November 25, 2006 11:59 am
  148. surfdude November 25, 2006 1:02 pm

    Come now fellows. Take a few deep breaths —
    It was hard for me to accept that 9-11 could have been an inside job - my neighbor lost her husband, my town lost 5 people that day. It was a deep dark day to say the least. When friends suggested that the WTC were brought down with with precisely placed explosives, I dismissed it out of hand.

    When looking at it more objectively, i can not say one way or the other. The official story seems as far fetched as the thermite one. Both have too many unanswered questions. So no need to fight, spend the energy gathering and presenting more evidence.

  149. Marc Authier November 25, 2006 2:50 pm

    Hey Rich,

    “Manifest kleptocracy.” is a nice expression. Bravo.

    It really sums up what “democracy” is all about in 2006.

    Neither democrat nor republican.

    “Supreme kleptocrat.” would also fit the bill.

  150. Darren November 25, 2006 3:20 pm


    In post 143 I made a mistake.Iam not a good typer & when posting much thinking is going in to typing i.e., looking for right keys etc then into the words I type.
    I forgot to type the word “thinking”"

    I meant to say the following: Do not make the mistake when you leave this site “thinking” your ideas & thoughts were not appriciated.I think your posts made a positive differance by cultivating thinking we had failed to do. I often change my mind to what Iam going to do & maybe you will also in this case.

  151. Darren November 25, 2006 3:51 pm


    As for Dec 2012 being an important date it will pale in comparison to the year 2020. If you or anyone
    have not already joined us & are committed to blind faith we are to do battle for 2020. If you dont understand what Iam talking about, in the year 2020 you will.

  152. surfdude November 25, 2006 4:51 pm

    Maybe Makia - but I think that 2011 will be a very important year as well, maybe the most important of all. Anyway - live life for today, because nobody can be assured that they will live to see tomorrow.

    Every new day is a blessing, let’s all keep that in mind as we look forward to the future.


  153. Darren November 25, 2006 6:08 pm


    Instead of focusing on learning,what if the focus of study was on thinking? I came to the understanding that knowledge was useless, for experiences present to us infinite number of objects & to understand those numerous objects specifically or in general is useless. I came to an understanding that emotion is useless, for feelings present to us infinite array of meanings & to understandthose meanings specifically or generally is useless. Left with no where to go one encounters a bitter nihilism in which one will eventually find only 2 paths are possible to go on from. The first is charactorized by the movement in Philosophy either as “irrationalism”. The secound is charatorized by the movement in philosophy known as Transcendentalism.

    Irrationalism provides that since emotions are useless & knowledge is useless that knowledge & emotions being all that we have are to used without rhyme or reason.

    Transcendentalism provided that although emotions & knowledge is useless that there is still reason in which allows us to understand universal truths about emotions & knowledge through conflicts exsisting between them. Out of Irrationalism came Existialism which eventually became Existential Phenomenology which sought to study our subjectivity through observing the nature of ourselves in the lack of reason. Out of Transcedentalism came Transcendental Idealism which grow into Absolute Idealism which studied the relationship subjectivity & objectivity through observing the conflicts between emotions & knowledge.

    The above post was a result of.

    I asked the Question “What are you doing differntly then most & perhaps even more importantly what are you not doing to cultivate such great understanding” to an individual that is one of the most out standing thinkers of our time. Some of what he said in his reply I understand & some I do not so I do not know if it is all true but that which I understand helped me become a better thinker.

  154. Saba November 26, 2006 2:10 am

    This post is in regards to the 911 conspiracy dispute and radical Islamism.

    I’m Jewish of Yemenite Jewish extraction. It’s no secret that Yemeni Muslims in Brooklyn, New York financed Al Queda or it’s religious branches by donating 10% of their profits from various mom and pop convenience stores. My Dad who was born in Yemen heard it from the owner of one the convenience stores himself. He went on boasting how his income from the store had made him a rich man in yemen and owner of many homes and land. Instead of being grateful to America like most immigrants, he says ‘Fuck America, it and Israel will be destroyed’ He then seeing my father as a fellow countryman, said that he doesn’t hate him and pointed out that his grandmother was Jewish, and he should come and visit his motherland of Yemen. You see they have no problem with Jews as long as they are dhimmis. Most outsiders including fellow European Jews have no idea who or what they’re dealing with here.

    After having said that, I still think that these Fundamentalists are pawns in some ways, and there is no way that the CIA didn’t have fore knowledge of some kind. As far as it being an inside job, the jury is still out and kastor has every right to be skeptical, but regarding the CIA’s or other governmment bodies in being corrupt and complicit through purposeful negligence in order to fulfill a certain nefarious agenda is very much possible.
    But, it is also fact that radical Islamist like this Yemeni convenience store owner do fervently believe in Allah advocated killing and whether they are puppets or just unruly children allowed to do as they please is besides the point. They are a loose cannon that cannot be tamed. These Muslims of the Arabian Peninsula love to be seen as lords and masters like the Saudis or Kuwatis. provide them with luxury and sloth, and they’ll shut the fuck up with their holy war. Since they are so primitive and tribal and fight among themselves with their petty envy of what the other tribe has and they don’t have, the bloddshed in that part of the world will never stop unless they are all appeased with the title of Lord and Master, coupled with a life of undeserved luxury and sloth. It’s the mentality, and the CIA aren’t as dumb as most people think. They are playing with these tribal nutcases, but they are playing with fire, and the stupid west will get burned. People should read this article and see how they prey on the weak, insecure, the aimless and the disgruntled psycopaths. Much of Islam is in that stage of being disgruntled and extremely dangerous. islam was forged from the harsh desert heat and imbued with a warped version of legalese Judaism and what you get is a worthless no fun to be around with religion.


  155. Dr Jane Karlsson November 26, 2006 6:53 am

    zephyr, thanks. I guess kastor has left us? It sounds to me as if he’s trying to prove certain things aren’t true because if they are, it means trusted superiors in his workplace or elsewhere have lied to him. Horrible situation. No excuse, I know.

    Darren, your spelling is quite charming. I like your ideas too.

    larry #140: Yes I buy the idea about organised crime and ‘pseudo-government agencies’. For me, it all comes under the loose heading of ‘the secret society network’, is that how you’re thinking?

  156. Dr Jane Karlsson November 26, 2006 7:39 am

    zephyr, you asked what are all the negative effects of zinc. They are mostly to do with not allowing copper to do its job. If there’s enough copper, zinc is a good guy.

    Copper is involved in a number of different processes, seemingly unconnected, which is why it’s taken me so many years to sort it all out. Roughly speaking, they come under two headings: energy production and maintenance-and-repair. Conventional doctors are not taught about maintenance and repair, they only have the vaguest idea that the body does that, which is why they think when you have symptoms, you need a drug.

    Actually, symptoms are what your body does when it’s trying to repair itself, and this is why drugs make you feel better temporarily but make the disease worse.

    Maintenance and repair systems are critically dependent on energy production systems, and this is why copper, which controls both, is so important. And why excess zinc is so bad.

    I am very interested to hear that there is a marketing drive in the US to get people to take more zinc. A paper in the journal Science in 1994 said a trial of zinc supplements in Alzheimer’s made the patients so much worse it had to be stopped IN DAYS. That was 12 years ago!

    How much the PTB knows about all this, and whether it’s a consious strategy or not, I don’t know. It certainly suits the drug companies. But we know that the CIA has programmes of mind control, and that they employ many scientists. I think it would be very surprising if absolutely no-one in a position to benefit from the potential for mind control in zinc overload knew about it.

  157. Dr Jane Karlsson November 26, 2006 7:54 am

    I meant conscious, not consious. I hope Darren didn’t notice.

  158. Rich November 26, 2006 8:06 am

    Thanks Marc.

    What happens if you combine Manifest Kleptocracy with Peak Humanity?

    Peak Kleptocracy!


    Seriously though, this stuff is critical to our understanding of the current world. When you suspend belief in what you are taught and learn to think for yourself, peel back the layers and listen to stories from people like Saba, then you have a chance of discerning the patterns that exist in the data and decrypting the modern world.

    Saba, one of the issues I have with your theory though is that if it is true the Yemeni store owners of NYC would all be in Cuba right now?! Posting your scenario on the internet would ensure “someone” would be looking in to it. A cursory analysis of repatriated funds to Yemen, or another Muslim state, and then a link to Al Qaeda, would then ensure these people would be locked up in places that don’t see much daylight?!

    On a different but related track. The new Bond movie, Casino Royale, has one line in it from M that says something like “after 911 it was discovered that someone had massively profited from short selling the airlines involved” - - the plot of the movie is trying to find the entity behind these short positions that are placed on stocks that will be affected by the next terrorist attack!

    The short selling mentioned in the movie is a fact, and it is wild that it is brought to the light of day in a Bond flick. We posted this info on D2 back in the day, I’ll have to find the link. A former CIA assistant director then working for AE Brown on Wall Street was the culprit, but the story was swept under the rug, like everything else to do with 911.

    Back later with more.

    Cheers Rich

  159. bp November 26, 2006 8:31 am

    saba #154, I think your point of view is considered and well thought out - heck of a world we live in, eh - bunch of paranoid nut cases driving the train off the cliff.

    Darren, are you coping text from somewhere? If so, can you link to it - I’d like to see your sources of information - just copy and paste the URL address here. You might check out Eastern philosophy - not operating in the same box as Western philosophy.

    Dr Jane - is there anything, then, to people wearing copper bracelets and rings?

  160. larry November 26, 2006 12:08 pm

    156 dr. jane…can’t resist responding…i know little about copper and zinc in relationship to any specific condition…in general,i am aware that due to a compromised life style and food suppy,the average human is over caloried but undernourished…this chronic state of suboptimal nutrition ,as you know,causes disruptions to normal metabolic functions…so that a deficiency ect…can effect neurologic function,so,well,i am already a believer…i agree with repair and maintenance being absolutely a blank in the medical doctrine…i tried to express to you once that the modern life style is pro-inflamatory..that is,chronic inflamation which unlike that associated with healing and repair(acute)actually promotes degenerative and pre-morbid,pre-mature aging…i am saying that chronic unresolved body wide inflamation is a representation of a dysfunctional cumulative metabolic pathway…it is body wide system altering havic of sorts…these are your typical unwell,multiple symptom patients the medical doctrine is unable to adequately address…these are unhealthy individuals and the pills they are sold simply make matters far worse…we agree on this..also,dr. jane i agree on complex carbs as being good nutritional sources…it is that as a clinician,my people or so ill from the methods of the past md’s that their metabolisms are so disruptive i have found clinically that fruits and vegetables heal better than the less nutient dense and more insulin releasing carbs of grains and tubers….jane,a really trgic case of patients suffering are those with fibromyalgia,millions in US alone…they are used and abused and their health destroyed..yet the cause and solution is known,although repressed and attacked…please read,’what you doctor may not tell you about fibromyalgia’by dr.paul st.amand m.d….he has been marginalized and riduculed by mass conforming medicine….he has found a minor defect in the kidney efficiency in excreting calcium in these patients…the build up of ca must go somewhere…it goes to all the cells internally, this disrupts ATP production…this causes all cells to be low on energy…this accounts for patients being sick and sore ‘everywhere’…the solution is simple..the herb guaifenisen…commonly made synthetically as MUCINEX…thats right ,millions of peoples agony and miserable life corrected by mucinex..it compensates for the kidney to excrete the calcium…as the cells unload the XS cacium ATP function returns to normal and all the symptoms clear…typical patients are put on antidepressents pain meds,treat the frequents colds ect and set aside to slowly painfully rot…outrageous…all they need is mucinex?…i have example like this all day long, that is why i document on film….it is a tool against the established commerce doctors…sick of yping…sign off best all…oh,if you think politicians lye to you for money…try exploring the mind of a typical md…judge,jury,executioner, in one inadequate package…

  161. larry November 26, 2006 12:09 pm

    oh and dr.jane….. you stick to your guns…that’s hot”paris hilton”.

  162. muleskinner November 26, 2006 2:48 pm

    Zinc is an essential element in the development of the skeletal structure and sexual maturation.

    A zinc deficiency in a twenty year-old will result in the individual to look like a perpetual teenager.

  163. Darren November 26, 2006 8:28 pm


    Iam not the best @ using picture perfect words,spelling,grammer,in short the English language to cultivate understanding. Some posts such as the bottom portion of 146 regarding consperacy. The post regarding logic in other thread was mostly copy. Some lines in other posts are copy as well as my own words. The 2 above were taken from Mike Mentzer book “Heavy Duty 11:Mind & Body

    Post 149 regarding hope, in other tread was partly copy. Post above regarding thinking over learning was mostly copy
    (which was the only post I posted which I did not understand completly) The source of these copies were from http://groups.msn.com?PHILOSOPHYFORALL From(Lycurgus 10 posting) Many of my ideas have come from Lycurgus but were not dirrect copies of his posts . Sky Cloud is manager of the site & he has made me one of the assistant managers. (jetpowder4)Except for the one post I understood exactly what I wanted to say & the copy I felt was needed for the best explaining. It was not a case of memorizing & repeat but a result of being lost for words for explaining concepts understood.

    BP & all are welcome to join Philosphy for all

    Critical thinking & debate a group @ msn. is also a great site. Lycurgus posted under Epcious there a while back.

    Regarding Quantum Physics from other thread I have no understanding of. I was listening to PQ WAll on wall street uncut near the year 1999. Pq wanted to find out some information regarding the theory so he went to some of the big universities in Colorado & talked to some physicists,not one was able to help him & one of them told there were only 4 individuals in the U.S that truly understood the theory. It makes me wonder teachers are teaching this without understanding of the theory will they teach it correctly? Since I have no understanding of the theory I can not judge if it is valid or invalid theory.

  164. Darren November 26, 2006 9:02 pm


    I would appriciate it if you would E mail Kastor & tell him I would like to see him back & I think Iam not alone on this.

    From experience individuals that think differntly then the herd like the individuals on this site find few to share there thoughts & ideas with. This site many of us can come & do that. Kastor has put a lot of thought into understanding & has helped me understand communism better & everyone here should feel they are welcome. This market top is going to be major. Iam almost certain the following is going to happen to many they will buy @ the top for reason of wanting to be accepted. Many will feel pain for being differnt have used a lot of time & energy to understand but will fail to the fact of the tendency to herd. We must look @ every angle to help all.Do not under estamate the power of wanting to herd near the top. If we all feel accepted by this group it might help. That does not mean we all have to agree & I think it best if we judge by our own eyes to our best & honest ability instead of by truth by consensus but it is best if we all feel accepted to lessen the herding tendency that many wont realize is happening to them.

  165. Dr Jane Karlsson November 27, 2006 5:25 am

    larry #160: many thanks. How extremely interesting about the excess calcium, and how to fix it. It has been clear to me for a long time that excess calcium is a major problem. Largely, as you say, because it inhibits ATP synthesis.

    I am delighted to think that we agree about so much. Still not on grains, but I accept that you have clinical experience I do not have.

    A couple of large studies published recently have shown that people who eat more fruit and vegetables have the same incidence of heart disease and cancer as people who eat less. Unrefined grains on the other hand, many studies have shown DO protect.

    But of course, you are dealing with sick people, and their damaged systems might find fruit and vegetables easier to deal with, as you suggest.

  166. bp November 27, 2006 5:26 am

    Thanks Darren - I would agree that the pull of the “herding instinct” is a tempting siren call right now - I’ll check out that site you referenced. Hope ya understand I’m not being critical, just want to see.

    As for Kastor, he’s a big boy, he can take care of himself - he’ll come back if he feels like it. I sure don’t mind his point of view. My guess is that “communism” in Russia, or China, isn’t really “communism” - the community of Shakers was closer to communism than what passes for it in Russia - big difference between the theory and the actual real world implementation. Collectivism may be a better descriptor for what goes on in Russia.

  167. Dr Jane Karlsson November 27, 2006 5:49 am

    bp #159, yes, copper bracelets have been shown to work. Tiny amounts of copper enter through the skin, and go to the joints where they promote synthesis of the stuff joints are made of.

    muleskinner #162, yes you are right. You mean the Iranians who were found to be like children at 18 or 20, and were fixed by zinc. You will be interested to hear that this is thought to have been a result of the Green Revolution. The soil in those parts of Iran was not suited to growing high-yielding crops, which were consequently deficient in zinc. Traditional crops were OK.

  168. Dr Jane Karlsson November 27, 2006 7:03 am

    Darren #146: ‘Many people today have become almost obsessive about the notion of ‘conspiracy theory’. … Shabby theories (or hypotheses) such as these enter the nation’s consciousness from time to time, but are very rarely supported by even a shred of solid evidence.’

    May I explain why there appears to be no evidence? It’s because of the way secret societies work. According to Nesta Webster and others, secret societies occur everywhere and always have, and they all have the same basic structure and way of operating.

    They are hierarchical, and the ’secret’ part refers to certain information that is imparted when a member rises from one level to the next. At the lowest level, the information is about the high ideals of the society and ’service to mankind’, and as members rise through the different levels, the information changes bit by bit so that when they reach the top, the whole ideology has been turned on its head so that ‘disservice to mankind’ would be closer to the truth.

    The Templars used to give their new members a test, telling them to spit on the cross. If the member refused, he would be congratulated and told he had made the right decision. But he would never rise above that level. This ensured that no-one with principles would ever make it to the top.

    Secret societies have rituals, and often they involve blood. Members are given to understand that if they betray the secrets, it will be their blood. Very occasionally they do betray the secrets, and that is how people like Nesta Webster found out these things.

    In today’s world, ALL the top people are members of secret societies. If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be at the top. Bush is Skull & Bones, Blair is a Bilderberger. The Bank of England doesn’t just have its own masonic lodge, it has three of them. These people do what they are told, and they are all absolutely terrified of each other.

    This is what conspiracy theories refer to, and many people who write about them have risked their lives to do so.

  169. zephyr November 27, 2006 7:06 am

    Well, it looks as if someone, somewhere in the world decided to take a little action on the $ as the American PPT was snoozing after a heavy Thanksgiving meal. Friday morning….BOOM!….sell-off! A falling knife so to speak. Same thing today but not quite as bad. I don’t think this can be denied any longer. I just wonder when it will happen, how quickly it will happen. The $ is so near it’s alltime low and all the fundamentals are so obviously skewed. And the average American has no clue.

    Watch the news. Story one- Iraq is a DISASTOR!!! Story two- Mindless Americans storm stores early Friday to buy more stuff. Because having more stuff equates to having more happiness, right? Wait until the herd takes the proverbial boning. This is going to be so ugly.

    I guess at this point the PTB are just biding their time before they pull the plug. I just can’t understand how the US has allowed itself to get into this position. Ignorance, I guess. People just don’t understand the big picture, nor do they really care. The average person cares about what is in his line of sight, that’s all. Everything looks fine to me! Our leaders will make sure everything is OK, after all, we’re the US…..nothing will ever go wrong, we’re all powerful.

    We have been lead down the path like a puppy on a leash. What a shame….on paper we had such a grand idea. That paper being the Constitution. What happened? We got to complacent, too fat, too comfortable, too lazy. It’s not the first time it has happened. Read the Fourth Turning by William Strauss and Neil Howe. Things like this happen throughout history. Americans don’t know history. Hell, they don’t know what happened 20 years ago.

    Radical Muslims? Please! They are no different than radical Christians or radical Jews. They just have less money and less influence, so their methods are different. Besides, nothing happens in a vacuum. If we do have to fear militant Islam, it’s with damn good reason. These people are tired of being fucked with by imperial powers ie: the US and Britain. Read some history, folks. We have been shitting on these people for some time. And we blame them for being upset??? A little reminder….we are in their country, they are merely defending it. Did you really think they would just forget when entire families are blown away? Would you? So they retaliate. Wouldn’t you? Iran huffs and puffs and threatens Israel. So what? Last I remembered, Israel has the only nukes in that area. So Hezballah runs over the border and pisses on Israel’s town hall steps. Israel’s response? Let’s use some of these neat weapons the US gives us.

    I’ve been to Israel. I have seen firsthand how poorly the Palestinians are treated. One of our friends who came over for Thanksgiving is Jewish. She told us that growing up, in religious classes, they are taught it is Israel above all else. So how is that different from the Islam first taught in Muslim countries? How is that different than the wacky shit taught to kids in Fundamentalist Christian bible camps? The only difference is that there are alot of these Zionist Jews in very prominent positions in America and throughout the world. Heads of media, central banks, positions in Government, who all believe in the Israel first position. That’s why we’re lead by the nose by Israel. And the wacky Christians who believe their bible prophesy, know Israel’s place in endtimes.

    I received a phone call a few month back from a fundamentalist group asking for funds for the poor people in Israel. Mind you, this was when they were creaming Lebanon. So I asked the telemarketer what exactly was her thought process in doing this. Her answer? Well, Jews are God’s chosen people and then she got into Israels place in bible prophecy, etc. I did ask her how she felt about slaughtering innocent Lebanese civilians and how Jesus might have felt about that, but I think she missed the point. Point is, there are alot of these Christian nutbags in our govt, who believe this wacky shit.

    So who’s really more dangerous I ask you. The people with the money and the weapons and the crazy theories? Or the people who live in poverty, who throw rocks, whose puppet governments prosper greatly and conspire with the people with the money and the weapons? Easy to be an armchair quarterback. Wait til our $$ collapses, and we find ourselves without a voice like these “radical Islamists”, most who don’t have a pot to piss in. I’ve been to the Middle East, as has my brother and uncle. They are by and large very friendly people. Until they start having bombs dropped on their heads. You could understand they’re not too crazy about that.

  170. muleskinner November 27, 2006 7:53 am

    Dr. Jane Karlsson, a seminar on zinc deficiencies was presented at the local university that I attended way back in 1970.

    Looks like a war on the stock market today.

    How many people in India are considered ‘middle class?’

    Answer: 300 million.

  171. the stranger November 27, 2006 8:57 am

    Rich, look how much your portfolio jumped today; amazing…

  172. bp November 27, 2006 8:58 am

    zephyr #169, I’d have to say my point of view seems to lie close to yours.

    Scary isn’t it how many people are running around acting on beliefs that they were taught as children - beliefs that see everything in terms of black and white, us and them - bunch of “wacky shit” indeed, and getting wackier by the day, heh

    Dr Jane #167 - thanks, as always you have been helpful

    muleskinner #170 - a riddle for you - how many people in India will be considered ‘middle class” in 10 years

  173. zephyr November 27, 2006 9:19 am



    This is an actual quote, I have verified, double and triple checking it.

    This is not an indictment of all Jews. I have Jews as friends. Some Jews I know are the salt of the earth, some of the genuinely nicest people I know. Some Jews vehemently oppose what their motherland is doing.

    But the Zionists, the one’s that run things, have run a brilliant marketing campaign portraying Jews/Israelis as perpetual victims. And if you dare challenge that then you must be a neo-nazi. There is no gray area, only black and white. So, we, being good Americans in an era of political correctness, are afraid to challenge that notion. We don’t wish to be perceived as anti-semetic. Some of this is sarcastic but most is true. We Americans wish to be seen as fair, representing the city on the hill which Ronald Reagan pined for. Why else would we support a horseshit war? We wanted to believe we were coming to the rescue again, just like Bruce Willis and Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwartzenegger.

    Naive!! And in the process we are allowing further atrocities. We have always needed an enemy, a bad guy, someone to point your finger at and say, “There goes the bad guy”. Borrowing a little from Al Pacino and Scarface.

    So the govt points to the poorest of the poor as the reason for our woes. And we believe it!!!! Someone has to be to blame and the poor have no marketing team, so blame them. Mexicans coming across the border, most trying to make an honest buck. Those bastards!!! Why, because things suck so badly in their country, due in part to us raping their economy in the 90’s. Oh, bullshit, it must be their own fault!!!

    Arabs, who see none of their country’s oil profits. Do you see us having trouble with Arab countries where the wealth is shared? No, our relations are cool as can be. Where the people have no hope is where the problems lie, and those are the regimes we have propped up over the years. Take away a person’s hope and what do they have left? Why do you think they blow themselves up? For fun?
    When one side has all the tanks, and helicopters, and missiles, all made in the USA….what’s left for them to do? There are no rules in war. If I’m in a fight and my opponent is kicking my ass then I’m going to do whatever necessary to balance the odds. If that mean using a baseball bat or a tire iron, then so be it. What…..you expect these people to sit back and enjoy being stripped of all dignity??

    Maybe, just maybe, we are the despotic regime bent on world power this time. Only this time it is different. It’s a subtle war waged by business to bleed you dry of every last dime before moving on. Dr. Jane is correct. Most of these people belong to clandestine organizations. What do you think these folks with sufficient dough talk about when they get together?? The weather? Where to vacation this year? Enough of so-called conspiracy talk, this stuff is real. Do I know every detail? No, I’m not a fly on the wall. But I can connect dots pretty well.

  174. zephyr November 27, 2006 9:23 am

    Thanks bp, nice to know I’m not alone, just some lunatic throwing rocks at the moon. Well, actually……:-)

  175. zephyr November 27, 2006 9:49 am

    Ok, I see my link didn’t work in 173, try this


    scroll down, just before the bottom, in red, is Ariel Sharon’s quote, click on that. Every American needs to read that quote. I have actually printed it and carry it around in my wallet to show people. I find this this helps when trying to present info to people, they might not believe you but they believe it in print(and you should see the look on their faces when they read it).

  176. Rich November 27, 2006 10:18 am

    Hey stranger, yeah it jumps around, today is up, tomorrow…..?

    One thing to watch for in global trading, etc, is that London will typically push the dollar down and gold up, when the US comes online the trend reverses. I’d guess that by tomorrow the dollar will jump back up, gold will reverse and we’ll be back to a trading pattern with the dollar around 84, gold at 625 and the DOW around 12,250.

    Just a hunch.

    Dr. Jane, your perspective is right on. Folks are in denial at the depth of control that the secret societies have, its quite disgusting if you ask me.

    zephyr, your perspective is right one too. There is a cabal of global leaders that set policy, there is a disproportionate number of zionists within the cabal, therefore the zionist agenda gets more airtime by far. I believe Israel was recreated primarily by the Rothschilds who were owed a lot of money by the British government after WWI. They received repayment partly through taking ownership of a large tract of Palestine, in order to create a Jewish homeland (a worthy cause under normal circumstances). I think the Baghdad to Jerusalem railroad that the Germans had just finished building was also thrown in to this deal between the British govt and Rothschild Bank (such are the spoils of war…..I guess when the upside of a war is so great it might make you believe that creating wars is actually a good idea? Especially if you were an international banker capable of funding both sides at the same time!).

    Anyway, the rest, so they say, is history. The Balfour Declaration, etc.

    Check this link out, it might blow your mind!?


    Cheers Rich

  177. muleskinner November 27, 2006 11:39 am

    How many middle class in India? I dunno, two?

    Yeah, Nolan, I am perturbed. All of this war business could have been avoided. Sorry for the late reply.

    I found this on zinc, since Dr. Jane Karlsson renewed my interest in zinc again concerning Iranians and zinc deficiencies.

    Does anybody really think that George Bush really cares about the middle class? He allegedy has bought a hundred thousand acres of land in Paraguay, for crying out loud. If the sons and daughters of middle class murkans can die in Iraq, then George Bush is responsible for those deaths, too, along with the thousands upon thousands of others wo have been killed there.

    The British are pulling out, the Italians are pulling out by the end of the week. The Polish are withdrawing their troops. Evidently, the US government will be left holding the bag.

    500,000 Iraqis have left Baghdad and are living in Amman, Jordan. Why aren’t they in Iraq helping out with the business of fighting the war? Because they know it is a lost cause. Why should they die for mistakes they haven’t made, but by the idiots who rule in Warshington?

    The cost is well over 400 billion dollars. Has it been worth it? It’s a mess. It can’t be won, the handwriting is on the wall. It is the ineluctable conclusion of the British, Italians, and the Polish.

    It is now fubar, snafu, what have you.

  178. Makia November 27, 2006 1:42 pm

    Here we go guys. Hold on to your hats.

  179. zephyr November 27, 2006 2:21 pm

    C’mon Makia….c’mon brother…. you gotta give me more than that! Feels like I’ve been the only one doing monologues today….I’m feeling freakish and John the Baptist-like today. I need your input, brother. I’m already holding my hat…..as well as other things…..but that’s something altogether different….albeit more fun…:-)

    Dude, let’s make a trip to Montreal for a weekend. That’s not to far from Philly. You can always say it’s “business”. Montreal is a very cool city!! But I digress……as always, have fun now before the dollar is as useless as a Barbara Walters interview with Britney Spears…..have the noose ready in the corner!!!

  180. Makia November 27, 2006 2:29 pm


  181. Makia November 27, 2006 2:50 pm

    I’ve been enjoying your monolouges, freind.

    In fact, i’m feeling rather stoic at present. You all are speaking my mind, and it is quite surreal. My internal conflicts are being effortlessly manifested through all these stranger’s fingers. I have expressed my gratitude enough, so i will remain silent on the expression and let my silence fill the room.

    Montreal isn’t that far from Philly?!?! I guess neither is London, just a short little swim! Let’s meet in between, lets say. . . Pittsburgh. My real hometown anyway. Have a house there an’ everything. Well. . . the bank has a house there that i pay them to hold title to.

    Yeah, it’d be nice to spend some dollars while they’re still worth something, but alas, i have none. Part of the reason i’m feeling so stoic. At the brink of economic collapse, i have nothing to lose! Fascinating. I wish i had a little gold. :-( I mean, in a year i could probably pay for my house, or buy a nice little farm. Admittidly its a little more complicated than that, but not much. To have some land to grow up some food and children. . . I’d be a satisfied man i tell you.

    I’m gonna keep on keepin’ on. It’ll be exciting to see how all this plays out. Hopefully something breaks for me and my little clan, maybe Kristin will be able to finish nursing school. Just a short year-and-a-half away. Not much else to say today. God bless America. Of course what does a nation get when it turns a blind eye to the creator and it’s laws of family and business? A whole lotta crap we shall soon see.

    This thread has been great today, as per usual. Thanks guys, good stuff. Nothing like churning the wheels of spirit, heart, intellect, and a little soul.

    As for me, i’ve been haveing some intense internal. . . goings on recently. And it hasn’t been intestinal, i can say that. Other than that, just a lot of stuff very hard to put into words.

    Everyone give yourself a hug! Peace out!

  182. surfdude November 27, 2006 4:18 pm

    Yes - I think it has just begun - the collapse that is. While I watched with glee as the markets finally started the trip down, the dollar is gasping, and bernanke, paulson and cheney are taking panick pills as they get ready to fly oversees to “calm” the markets. Unfortunately I covered my shorts after too much pain weeks ago.

    I kind of feel sad though, like I am watching an old friend ( I love the country as the founders had framed it) die a slow death. I guess we are all going to suffer as this train derails. Hold on fellows… were going over the cliff…

  183. zephyr November 27, 2006 4:40 pm

    Surfdude, It is the beginning of the end, isn’t it? It’s an overwhelming feeling in your gut. No disguising it anymore. There will be some satisfaction in telling others constantly that IT was coming. But that satisfaction will be brief as reality sets in. I’m not in great financial position so it’s going to be alot more of praying the Almighty has my back. And I believe He does. Weird thing is the radical Jews, Christians and Muslims pray to the same God…..so it makes me wonder sometimes what makes me so damn sure I’m right?! What makes any of us so sure what we believe is IT…..you know, the right belief, whatever it may be.

    It’s getting to that point…..like the Tsunami a couple of years ago…..just before it hit, the tide went out like never before. And most folks just stared at it. Not the animals…..funny how the animals recognize stuff before the supposed intelligent creatures do. Well, I guess past generations have experienced some heavy stuff, too. And mankind has always carried on…..and I do believe in an afterlife……all the same, without sounding dismal, one gets the feeling that the tide is rushing out…..

  184. Bull! Not bull » Is This It? November 27, 2006 5:49 pm

    [...] What got me writing tonight was zephyr’s comment #183 on the last thread …like the Tsunami a couple of years ago…..just before it hit, the tide went out like never before. And most folks just stared at it. [...]

  185. Administrator November 27, 2006 6:20 pm

    What an amazing thread!

    New one here: http://www.bullnotbull.com/blog/?p=88

    Is this It? Dollar plunging, Dow falling …

    What do we do besides just stare at the tide being sucked out?



  186. stagflationman November 28, 2006 3:02 pm


    I much appreciate Lou Dobbs coming out and telling it the way it is with America these days. I hope it is not too late to turn America around.I’m sure he has paid a high personal price in terms of marketability for doing the right thing. America and Canada need more people like him.

  187. Darren December 1, 2006 8:06 pm


    Canada does not need a man like Lou for we got Santa Claus.

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